Clearly No Fraud: Where did Cobb's 40,000+ votes GO?

[IndyOp]

Lucas County: The Ohio Secretary of State’s website showed that with 6.06% of Lucas County’s precincts reporting, 1,917 votes had been cast George W. Bush; 0 for John F. Kerry; and 4,685 for David Cobb <http://www.oliverwillis.com/node/view/1152 >.

The Ohio Secretary of State’s website now shows, (with 100% of precincts having reported) 85,405 votes for George W. Bush; 128,874 for John Kerry; and 8 for David Cobb < http://election.sos.state.oh.us/results/RaceDetail.aspx?race=PP >. Lucas used Diebold voting systems according to VerifiedVoting.org.

Hamilton County: The Ohio Secretary of State’s website showed that with 11.25% of Hamilton County’s precincts reporting, 34,804 votes had been cast George W. Bush; 39,541 for John F. Kerry; and 39,541 for David Cobb <http://www.oliverwillis.com/node/view/1152 >.

The Ohio Secretary of State’s website now shows, (with 100% of precincts having reported) 215,639 votes for George W. Bush; 190,956 for John Kerry; and 66 for David Cobb < http://election.sos.state.oh.us/results/RaceDetail.aspx?race=PP >. Hamilton County used ES&S voting systems according to VerifiedVoting.org.

On edit: Correction to Cobb's final vote counts & re-organize post to clarify.

:kick:

[Deja Q]

1. 0 votes? I find that highly unlikely.

[Yellow Horse]

3. Actually, there were a number of OH Counties where David Cobb...

got zero votes. He was not on the ballot, just an official write-in candidate. I don't know about the counties in question, but in much of OH, David Cobb actually got NO votes.

That is why it is all so much more impressive that the Greens stepped up to the plate and pushed this recount effort! They have for sure earned my respect -- big, BIG time.

Marybeth

--------
Eastern OH - PA Border Region Recount Coordinator

(Life-long Dem who worked with the Greens on this)

[Bill Bored]

8. Welcome to DU Marybeth! Can you please tell us a few things

about the recount?

1. Witness reports on Cobb's site have stated that the selection of precincts for the 3% manual recounts was not random, which I think is required by law. For example, there were cases in which larger precincts were excluded because they had much more than 3% of a county's vote. This left only a few smaller precincts to be manually recounted, leaving the possibility of counting fraud and/or error in the larger precincts completely unchecked, except by the machines.

If this is wrong, please tell me how so?

2. Also, I was wondering whether the original counts of the punch card ballots were done at the precinct level by card readers in each precinct, or only at the county level. The idea would be that at the precinct level, it would only be necessary to swap a few votes in each machine from Kerry to Bush to provide Bush with a 100,000-vote victory. And this might not be detected by the 3% hand recount unless that 3% were selected randomly.

3. And do the DRE machines in Ohio have voter-verified paper trails (the kind where the voter sees the printout, accepts it, and it's then stored in the machine to be recounted manually) or do they just reprint what's in the machine's memory?

A number of us here are suspicious of what's going on with this recount. Hope you can shed some light. And thanks for participating and for joining DU!

[Yellow Horse]

16. Thanks for the welcome... although I have been hanging around

DU for a long time (links on DU were how I found out about the recount and got involved, actually!)

Will try to answer your questions as best I can...

1) Yes, absolutely, the precinct choices were NOT random (except in about one county). In my counties, they had the precincts to be hand counted definitely pre-chosen with various reasons given. (closest in size to the 3%, wanted to get precincts from all areas of the county, no reason given, etc).

In one of my counties, the ballot boxes were opened at the recount and they were in there completely PRE-SORTED based on who was voted on for President. And NO hanging chads, in 250 ballots I observed personally. Hmmmm.

We didn't have authority to stop any recounts based on all this, but we did of course note everything and report it. (This is one of the points you will see in various testimony and lawsuits.)

2) As far as I know the punchcard ballots are all counted at the COUNTY level, usually in the Board of Election offices, on one reader going into one tabulating computer. Vote-swapping, IF there is any (and please note I said "IF" because we really didn't find hard evidence of it) still could possibly be done by precinct at the county level though. And you are right it would only take a few votes per precinct.

3) I had no DREs in my counties (all punch card), but the word I got was NO voter-verified paper trails on the ones in use in other counties.

Most who actually worked on the recount are still suspicious also... we didn't find massive glaring evidence of fraud (didn't expect to, either) but we did find enough "stuff" (like the non-random 3% precincts, tabulating computers hooked up via modems, etc) that COULD, possibly, allow fraud. Personally I am hopeful that the lawsuits filed will lead to subpoena of machines and ballots for further investigation.

Hope this helps... if you have more questions please ask away and I'll do my best! :-)

Marybeth
--------
Eastern OH - PA Border Region Recount Coordinator

[Bill Bored]

27. Thank you very much. I guess my worst fears have been confirmed

I hope there can be more investigation. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound as if this recount proves anything. The non-random precinct selection alone invites fraud. But why do you think the Dems on the Boards of Election were apparently so agreeable to all this?

[Yellow Horse]

29. Just a matter of wanting to get the recount "over with"....

It's Christmas... the recount is a "bother" to their routine.... I don't think these BOE people (either party) realize what is going on or COULD be going on. They think everything is truly fine (and it probably is, from their perspective.)

If there is fraud I don't think it is coming from these people (but they COULD be the unwitting patsies of a "higher" power doing fraud.) Of course OTOH the very act of not doing the recount EXACTLY as prescribed by law could be considered fraud in itself, regardless of whether or not votes are changed.

No the recount really didn't prove anything except that the whole thing is screaming for further investigation and improvements in the system.

Let's hope the lawsuits are successful in getting more investigation and/or a congressperson AND a senator stands up on January 6.

[Bill Bored]

34. Reminds me of FL, Thanksgiving 2000

The election workers there were bitching about having to work Thanksgiving weekend, even though the margin at the time was only a few hundred votes and the election wasn't even close to being decided. THOSE folks should have been tried for treason or provided with turkey with all the trimmings, or both!

In this case, I can see how they might be unhappy given the wider margin and all, but still, the law is the law.

Thanks again for posting.

[Vektor]

10. Welcome to DU!!

Nice to have you with us. How are you holding up through all this madness?
:hi:

[Yellow Horse]

17. Thanks!

Myself I am holding up BETTER because of having done what I did (participate with the recount)... though still left with a pile of questions!

We all have to keep working on this folks, long necessary haul.


Marybeth
--------
Eastern OH - PA Border Region Recount Coordinator

[IndyOp]

6. HypnoToad - Actually thanks for asking your question...

I double checked the Secretary of State's website and found that Cobb did get 66 votes in Hamilton and 8 in Lucas. I have to admit that I am now sorry that I didn't save screen shots of the site - because for 2-3 weeks afterwards I repeatedly checked the site and found 0 votes for Cobb in both counties.

:shrug:

[Carolab]

2. Nothing to see here, Keef

that's why I don't plan to swear any oafs and talk about it, neither.

[buddysmellgood]

4. Indy, you have to understand. Those were unofficial results. In any

election there are certain glitches. Those glitches, when compounded by election shenanigans, and fun-loving election hijinx, can sometimes lead to erroneous results. But there is no harm in that. After all the official results didn't report those "honest" mistakes.
What we can't stand for, however, are "frivolous conduct" and abusive and unnecessary requests of elections officials.
Frivolous conduct is at the root of our problem with terrorism today. And if we allow abusive and unnecessary requests of elections officials, then the terrorists have already won...as they almost did in Warren County. Thank God for alert election officials there.

[IndyOp]

5. buddysmellgood -- LOL!

Thanx!

:bounce:

[Bill Bored]

9. I was going to ask him what he's been smoking!

Thanks for pointing out that he had his tongue in his cheek!

[IndyOp]

12. It took me until I got to...

"And if we allow abusive and unnecessary requests of elections officials, then the terrorists have already won...as they almost did in Warren County." before I got it!

:hi:

[Straight Shooter]

31. *sniff sniff*

Okay, just a rambunctious fun-loving DU'er.

If buddy had been a freeper, I would have keeled over with that post. ;)

[Andromeda]

7. I find this hard to believe...

Lucas County: The Ohio Secretary of State’s website showed that with 6.06% of Lucas County’s precincts reporting, 1,917 votes had been cast George W. Bush; 0 for John F. Kerry; and 4,685 for David Cobb

<http://www.oliverwillis.com/node/view/1152 >.

It's not believable that Kerry would have gotten 0 votes while David Cobb got 4,685 in this county.

[IndyOp]

11. Exactly!

There is evidence from other races that votes have been moved away from Dems to 3rd party candidates. For example, Chapter 13 in Black Box Voting (the book) discusses Florida in 2000. At the same time on election night that Al Gore had 16,022 votes deducted from his total an obscure socialist candidate picked up 10,000.

More? California (2003) and Florida (2000) sections on the following post are of interest.
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=87168>

:kick:

[dlaliberte]

15. Losing votes is not just unbelievable ... try impossible

In addition to zero votes for Kerry, note that Cobb's votes went from 4,685 (with 6.06% counted) down to 8 (official count).

Why would that have happened? Where did those 4,685 come from if they were not supposed to be there in the first place? How did they get removed? Clearly this is one of those "glitches" that needed to be corrected. But hw can we trust ANY of the numbers when things like this happen?

Random guess - votes for Kerry got shifted to Cobb. I wonder which precincts had reported by that time.

Similar things happened to the exit polls in some places, as I recall.

[IndyOp]

19. Can't quite tell - but it sounds like you seriously think this was a

random error. We can't trust ANY of the numbers because this is evidence of fraud happening 'in real time' during election night. Someone with access to the central tabulators was moving votes from Kerry to third party candidates so that Kerry's performance would look less good in relation to *. The votes were possibly later returned to Kerry, or they may have been moved to * totals.

Please check my post above -- about Siphoning Votes to 3rd Party Candidates in 2000 and 2003 -- also look at the additional information in HarmonyGuy's post below.

:kick:

[dlaliberte]

26. How can we trust ANY of the numbers?

I trust the questioning of numbers more than any of the official numbers. My question was rhetorical.

I believe that there has been fraud, but in addition to all the fraud, there were probably many mistakes. Statistically, we would expect mistakes to average out, but it seems we find them mostly favoring Bush, which leads one to suspect (with extreme certainty) that these are not merely mistakes. When a "mistake" is intentional, that is fraud, and many of those probably did slip in unnoticed.

It ought to be the case that there are zero errors, so we could have 100% confidence that all the votes were counted and no extras, etc. It should be possible to do this, though we might require an electronic voting system with digital signatures at all levels to do it. We have nothing like that now in use, but the technology has been well known for at least 10 years. Even an ATM-like system would be more secure than what we have now, and ironically Diebold could be the provider of that proven technology, but I will never trust them again.

[harmonyguy]

13. Some earlier reports may help (lots of data)

I posted the following a couple of weeks ago, which may help in discerning what happened to the numbers, although it certainly doesn't explain WHY what happened, happened.
HG
---------------------------------------
On election night and on subsequent days, I captured readings from the Ohio SoS election results website. They're all loaded into one huge spreadsheet and I'm seeing some disturbing things - some of which have been reported before and others, to the best of my knowledge, have not.

Readings were made through Nov 15th. On Nov 17th, the site appeared to be reset to 0 for all results, and on the 18th SOME but not all counties continued to be reported with updated totals, with others showing 0. Since many of these occurrances may have perfectly sound explanations, with the exception of the Lake and Lucas Counties vanishing votes, I have tried to avoid commenting on them.

All times listed are CST starting on Nov 2nd - times like 0010 or 0840 are Nov 3rd.

VANISHING VOTES
Fairfield County - election night by 2235cst, BADNARIK had recieved 523 votes, however between 2340cst and 2350cst his total dropped to 187 where it stayed until certification, at which point he gained 3 more votes.

Fairfield County - election night by 2235cst, PEROUTKA had recieved 708 votes, however between 0010cst and 0035cst his total dropped to 189 where it stayed until certification, at which point he gained 2 more votes.

Hamilton County - election night between 2055cst and 2130cst, the total for COBB went from 0 to 39541, which was identical to the total for KERRY. Then, between 2130cst and 2200cst, the total for COBB went from 39541 back to 0, but NO other totals changed.

Hocking County - election night by 2250cst SCHRINER had recieved 24 votes, however between 0000cst and 0010cst all of those votes vanished, and he ended with a certified total of 0.

Lake County - election night between 1935cst and 1945cst, the total for COBB went from 0 to 14883, which was identical to the total for KERRY. Those totals remained in place until 2035cst, when the COBB total went back to 0 and the KERRY totals went to 42191. COBB's total stayed at 0 until certification, at which point it went to 8.

Lake County - election night between 2010cst and 2035cst, the total for SCHRINER went from 0 to 90, but between 2035cst and 2055cst it went back to 0, where it stayed until certification, at which time it went to 1 vote.

Lucas County - election night between 2055cst and 2130cst, the total for COBB went from 0 to 4685, but between 2130cst and 2200cst it went back to 0, at the same time as the KERRY total went from 0 to 4685. Shortly after, at 2235cst, the COBB total went back up to 4685, where it stayed until 2315cst, at which time it went back down to 0 and stayed that way until certification, at which point it went to 8. (seems VERY similar to Lake county)

Medina County - election night between 2035cst and 2055cst, the total for PARKER went from 0 to 11, but between 2055cst and 2130cst it went back to 0, where it stayed.

Meigs County - election night between 2010cst and 2035cst, the total for PEROUTKA went from 0 to 103 but between 0010cst and 0035cst on Nov 3, his total went back to 0. Between 0035cst and 0055cst he regained 31 votes, which stayed with him through certification.

ONE SHOT WONDERS
Harrison County - election night posted one set of results between 2200cst and 2235cst, and had no updates until certification, when BADNARIK lost 11 votes and BUSH and KERRY each lost exactly 44 votes.

Richland County - election night posted one set of results between 2130cst and 2200cst, and had no updates until certification.


DELAYED REPORTING
Huron County - no election night results were revealed until between 2340cst and 2350cst.

Jackson County - no election night results were revealed until between 0055cst and 0115cst

Miami County - no election night results were revealed until between 2300cst and 2315cst.

Tuscarawas County - no election night results were revealed until between 0010cst and 0035cst.

SPLIT VOTES
Columbiana County - sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, BUSH and KERRY each gained exactly 542 votes.

Lake County - sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, BUSH and KERRY each gained exactly 1578 votes.

Harrison County - split loss of 44 each. see ONE SHOT WONDERS.

PROVISIONAL EXTRAS
With my understanding of provisional ballots, I had expected to see totals displayed after Nov 15th rise by no more than the number of provisional ballots issued. I had assumed that absentee ballots would have already been counted by the 15th, which was my last reading prior to the apparent reset of the web site totals on the 17th.

Adams County - although only 184 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 264 votes were added.

Allen County - although only 1374 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 1631 votes were added.

Athens County - although only 2504 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 2579 votes were added.

Clinton County - although only 378 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 491 votes were added.

Defiance County - although only 541 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 671 votes were added.

Erie County - although only 1072 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 1340 votes were added.

Geauga County - although only 668 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 686 votes were added.

Greene County - although only 2127 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 2731 votes were added.

Guernsey County - although only 558 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 1579 votes were added.

Hamilton County - although only 14386 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 15396 votes were added.

Hancock County - although only 791 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 1195 votes were added.

Hardin County - although only 349 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 416 votes were added.

Highland County - although only 494 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 527 votes were added.

Holmes County - although only 170 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 242 votes were added.

Lake County - although only 1975 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 3180 votes were added.

Liking County - although only 1565 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 1637 votes were added.

Monroe County - although only 132 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 135 votes were added.

Warren County - although only 1465 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 2168 votes were added.

Washington County - although only 643 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 791 votes were added.

Wyandot County - although only 138 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 456 votes were added.

PROVISIONAL LOSSES
Harrison County - although 89 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 98 votes were subtracted.

Sandusky County - although 760 provisional ballots were issued, sometime after Nov 15 at 2230cst, 2891 votes were subtracted.

[IndyOp]

18. OMFG - HarmonyGuy where have you been all my life?

Do you by any chance - remote though it may be - have screenshots?

What records do you have?

What do you mean by "I posted the following a couple of weeks ago, which may help in discerning what happened to the numbers"?

If I don't get back to you tonight, please check your posts tomorrow -- the dog really, really needs to go outside and I am headed to bed...

:bounce:

[harmonyguy]

21. No Screenshots - but are mirrors without smoke ok?

What I have are fifty-four(54) captures of the Ohio SoS Election results webpage for the Presidential race broken down by County.

http://election.sos.state.oh.us/results/RaceDetail.aspx?race=PP

It's the data from these captures that I've been working with, and posting about here at DU and elesewhere.

What data do I have? What data do you need?

Where have I been????
Just freezing my assets off up here in Canada wondering to where my southern neighbor is headed.

HG

[IndyOp]

30. 54 captures of the Ohio SoS election results when?

While results were coming in? On Nov. 3? Later?
Do you have captures for all of the information you posted above?

If I knew where your southern neighbor was headed I would surely tell you. I wish I knew.

It is really, really nice to make the acquaintance of a Canadian right now. I scored a 72/100 on my skilled worker Canadian immigration test (67 is a pass). I've decided (for now) that heading for Canada would be a cop out, but in a few months I might be thinking other thoughts...

:hi:

[harmonyguy]

33. 54 captures - details

Yes to all of the above questions, broken down as follows:

Nov 2 16 captures
Nov 3 11 captures
Nov 4 2 "
Nov 5 6 "
Nov 6 2 "
Nov 7 2 "
Nov 8 1 "
Nov 9 1 "
Nov 10 1 "
Nov 12 2 "
Nov 15 2 "
Nov 17 2 "
Nov 18 1 "
Nov 19 1 "
Nov 22 2 "
Nov 23 1 "
Dec 12 1 "

Now, my captures started at 1850cst, and there was no defined spacing between them. In otherwords it wasn't every half hour on the half hour or anything like that. It was more like when I could, if I could, then I did.

Hope that helps a bit.
HG

[IndyOp]

35. Do you have a website where you could post these?

Or would you be willing to send the files to me as attachments and let me post them on my website? <http://www.bpac.info>

:kick:

[harmonyguy]

36. No I don't - some space would be useful

I'm certainly willing to send the files. I'll take a look and see what the easiest way will be to get them to you.

HG

[Yellow Horse]

20. Harrison One of Mine...

Harmonyguy, I saw your post before and actually asked my observer SPECIFICALLY to ask about that on recount day.

From observer: This was claimed to be due to placing absentee ballots of wrong rotation and precinct in with Franklin precinct & then removing the wrong absentee ballots and counting Franklin again but without re-zeroing the tabulator. (In effect, this Franklin was counted twice in the unofficial results from election night.)

When they went to Certify, they had to remove those extra votes so that Franklin was only counted once and without the incorrect absentees.

Seemed to us like a truly innocent error that got corrected.

<<ONE SHOT WONDERS
Harrison County - election night posted one set of results between 2200cst and 2235cst, and had no updates until certification, when BADNARIK lost 11 votes and BUSH and KERRY each lost exactly 44 votes.>>

Marybeth
--------
Eastern OH - PA Border Region Recount Coordinator

[harmonyguy]

22. Hey thanks - glad to hear that my posts are being read !

What 'technology' is used in Franklin and Harrison? Punch Cards or Optiscan?

While the explanation may sound plausible, it is my understanding that for both optiscan AND punch cards, the precinct and rotation id's are coded right on to the card so that this type of occurrance would be impossible. In theory, one should be able to take cards for numerous precincts and rotations and feed them all in and the system 'should' make sense out of them. That's the whole idea behind automation - I'm positive that's how it is with optiscan, not 100% positive on punch card.

If the punch cards do NOT track the precinct and rotation numbers, then IMHO, there you have an explanation for 'how the deed was done' in Ohio. With no properly documented chain of custody for the ballots, how the H#(( do they know what precinct and rotation any given ballot belongs to? All it is, is a card with holes.

HG

[Yellow Horse]

24. Harrison is Punchcard...

not sure about Franklin (not one of mine but I can look it up).

The punchcards do NOT have anything punched on the individual cards that the card reader can use to change the rotation. This is done by a "header card" which changes the rotation at the beginning and end of each precinct.

Would make more sense to me to have a hole on each ballot that the reader can use to set the rotation, but that's not how it is.

Problem with any "frauding" done by simply putting the wrong cards into the wrong rotation would be that unless done VERY carefully (only a few ballots at a time,etc), if you do too many you end up with a big mess quickly. And you'd have to make sure the cards you switched had the candidate you wanted on the right hole in the new rotation so that he would get the vote on the switch.

Like the thing in Harrison, with the absentees -- those cards were on the wrong rotation for the precinct they were originally counted in, and Badnarik "got" 11 votes, which were probably really intended for Kerry or Bush. When the error was corrected Badnarik got 0 votes in that precinct.


Marybeth
--------
Eastern OH - PA Border Region Recount Coordinator

[harmonyguy]

25. WOW -

un-freaking-believable.

Got to sleep on this one.


HG

[IndyOp]

32. The easiest way to cheat with punch cards -

according to Douglas Jones, the voting expert working with the recount teams, is to mislabel the ballots in precincts where you think your guy will loose: Hole 1 on the ballot label is marked "Bush" and Hole 2 is labeled "Kerry", but the computer tabulator software counts all cards with Hole 2 punched as votes for Bush.

Jones strongly recommended that recount teams insist on being shown the original labels for each precinct to make sure that the original count and recount was being done correctly. But, in the delay between the election and the recount anyone could have tampered with the materials. If the recount teams did not see the original, correct labels, and the 'header' card on top of the stack was the same as on election night (causing the same fraudulent count) - the recount would come out exactly right.

:grr:

[Yellow Horse]

23. Do those you know if those totals include ALL Provisionals

or just the "walk-in" provisionals?

(There are 2 kinds, as explained to me by one of the BOE Directors)

The "walk-ins" are those who come to vote AT THE PRECINCT and for whatever reason (not in signature book, etc) they have to vote a provisional. These ARE recorded in the pollbook and are of course (if counted) they are counted with their precinct's total.

The second kind of provisional is when a voter is changing their registration from one county IN OHIO to another... in this case they go to the Board of Elections Office and vote a provisional there in the BOE office. (Doing this moves their registration from their previous county to the new county and new precinct for future elections.) These moved-registration provisionals are handled by the BOE office. They ARE recorded with the total number of votes for their correct new precinct at certification, but they ARE NOT recorded in that precinct's pollbook.

This MAY explain cases where the number of provisionals goes up at or prior to certification.

I have NO idea why it would go down, unless due to another error getting corrected (see my post on Harrison.)

Marybeth
--------
Eastern OH - PA Border Region Recount Coordinator


<<PROVISIONAL EXTRAS
With my understanding of provisional ballots, I had expected to see totals displayed after Nov 15th rise by no more than the number of provisional ballots issued. I had assumed that absentee ballots would have already been counted by the 15th, which was my last reading prior to the apparent reset of the web site totals on the 17th.>>

[Vote4Kerry]

28. Thanks for posting this! n/t

[IndyOp]

14. Don't miss these...

Clearly No Fraud: 3,100 Perry County Voters Registered on 11/8/77
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x200823>

Clearly No Fraud: After 100% Precincts Reported, 18,615 more votes!
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x200958>

:bounce: