2 questions for everyone...

[Not a Sheep]

I'm trying to be realistic. As much as I admire the passion of many posts here, I'm afraid people are trying too hard to be positive and fooling themselves (and each other) that the outcome of the election is going to change.

So, I have two questions.

What do you realistically think is going to happen concerning the election and when do you give up thinking that it's going to happen.

As much as I'd like to see a smoking gun, I don't think anything overwhelming is going to happen that proves fraud or changes Ohio's electoral votes. Yes, we may get a Senator to challenge on the 6th and we can argue the historical significance of this, but Bush is still going to get a 2nd term. If something BIG doesn't happen on the 6th, I believe it's over.

[bones_7672]

1. Bush sworn in on 1/20, Congress turns its attention elsewhere.

I mean, except for a handful, Congress already has.

[GreenPartyVoter]

63. Yep. Looking forward to more of the same ol' same ol', except

that ** will be twice as crazy this time around.

-------------------------------------
Liberal and darned proud about it!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[electropop]

67. This is bigger than Watergate

At this stage after the Watergate breakin, almost nobody on the street would have been able to tell you what it was. 2 years later, Nixon was gone. NGU

[Goldeneye]

2. They cheated and they cheated a lot

Bush may be sworn in, be his win will be deligitimized. There are too many people who are pissed off that it happened again and they aren't going to give up.

Quick question: Was there much work to expose fraud in 2000? I didn't pay much attention to this stuff back then I was only 14.

[bunny planet]

32. They took it all the way to the Supremes in 2000, and they annointed

His Fraudulency. There was no legal higher ups to take it to. It was proven by citizens who actually counted the votes after the fact through FOIA requests to see the ballots, that Gore won in every circumstance. The article about that came out on the front page of the NYTimes on September 12, 2001, so you know how many people were paying attention to that.

[Truman01]

87. This isn't true. I was on those teams and involved in both

the legal process and the after count. Gore lost in all but one means of counting. We have had this argument on here before and have posted the link to prove the case.

TC

[eomer]

90. Gore won.

The NORC "Florida Ballots Project" looked at the results 9 different ways. Under all of the ways that counted all of the counties using a single standard, Gore won.

I'm sure you will try to refute this by citing an article from CNN or some such. But the problem is that CNN and the rest of the MSM misstated the results. Look back at the original NORC study and you will find the results to be as I've stated.

[Truman01]

94. Please provide a link to support your statement...

CNN isn't my source. NYT's, Gallup, and Harris polls did the recount and Anderson and Anderson did the audit.

TC

[roenyc]

3. Same old same old

1) lets see conyers does his thing. the senate does nothing. or maybe it does. either way they talk about it for an hour or two. then go to lunch. laugh about it and shake hands. and call the votes.

2) bush gets his crown.

3) sooner or later during his rein he gets in trouble for and leaves office for:

voter fraud or

war crimes or

9/11

this makes us feel better and implicates cheney and rummy too. so the entire administration is toast. hmm. what happens at this point. who runs the show?


just my humble opinion. remember i had a dream about Robert Novak last night.

[elare]

20. Dream about Robert Novak?

Wouldn't that be a nightmare?

[hoosierblue]

69. Yay!

I prefer your future.

And what's up with your dream about Novak, that creepy weasel of a man?

[roenyc]

85. It was awful

i dont remember most of it. I only know i woke up scared to death because Novak's face was hovering over mine and smelling and saying its not Nixon this time.

i jolted out of bed! this is because i watched crossfire. why? you ask. i am a sadist i guess.

and he was spewing some mud about the recount proving shrub won the election but there are the idiotic bloggers out there who are mad at Kerry for not standing up and yelling foul. he thinks we should just you know shut the f up. i guess. and his counter part said he agreed. he knows what its like for someone who wasn't elected to try to take the white house. ala bush v gore.

anyway. thats what stayed in my head i guess. plus the fact that that bastard (Novak) isn't in jail and they are going after other news people who never published the CIA ops name. ugh. i am stressed out man.

Why does this man still have a damn job. guess this is bothering me. i should write CNN and get this off my mind. i never want this ugly thing in my dreams again.

[Quakerfriend]

4. I believe that

Bush will be sworn in 1/20, but that by mid 2005 the election will become a scandal of epic proportions and he will be brought down by this, the war, and his bankrupting of the country.

[tavalon]

10. Sweet! n/t

[lonestarnot]

16. I am inclined to see things this way.

[salin]

62. not just the bankrupting of the country...

but the tendency to keep selling the country (or its citizens) to the highest bidder.

[Truman01]

88. Sounds like a new I believe thread. nt

[jmcgowanjm]

5. Washington Republican Guv Candidate calls for new election

Our boundless optimism becomes pathological for it is out
of touch with reality and does not take into account everything
we have learned about the complexity, sensitivity and subtlety
of life itself.

Here, the focus is not on finding precise solutions to
the equations defining the dynamical system (which is
often hopeless), but rather to answer questions like "Will
the system settle down to a steady state in the long term, and
if so, what are the possible steady states?" or "Does
the long-term behavior of the system depend on its
initial condition?"

http://www.paricenter.com/library/papers/gentle02.php

With the stealing of the last 3 elections,
4-counting Schwarzenegger, 911 as the next
PearlHarbor and the Dem
response (Charlie,Lucy and the football)
we have moved past Democracy
into a new form of political system.

[Helga Scow Stern]

57. The greater the complexity of a system, the greater the probability

for spontaneous perturbation--changing to a new state.


Since the world is a very complex system--political and natural--as the tsunamis just reminded us, there is a great chance that nothing is going to proceed in a linear fashion, least of all be predictable, so, as far as I am concerned, optimism is warranted, as long as it has no time frame and keeps us chipping away at the tasks before us.

I also like what Terrence McKenna, Rupert Sheldrak, and Ralph Abrams said, that the universe's evolving order is toward greater beauty--

that beauty to me is justice, mercy, and love.

[genieroze]

61. new form of political system? Fascism isn't new. eom

[flpoljunkie]

6. Would like to see no stone unturned in our effort to get accurate vote

count in Ohio. We must be assured that there was no manipulation of the results, particularly via the central tabulating computers. Exhaust all legal remedies and get the people out in the streets in Ohio on January 3rd and in DC on January 6th. Let them know that we will not stand for this disenfranchisement and it must be fixed before anything else is done in the Congress of the United States.

The vote suppression in Ohio, and other states, is beyond disgraceful in our so-called democracy, but it is doubtful the Ohio Supreme Court will allow a revote. They are not the Florida Supreme Court which courageously ruled according to the law in 2000 and received a lot of criticism from the right for doing so. The so-called "conservative" right pretends they want judges to follow the law--what they really want is judges who do their bidding!

[tngledwebb]

7. This issue may be ignored by MSM and pols after Jan.

but it will not go away. It will not go away. Repeat...

[righteous1]

8. For all practical purposes, it's being ignored now n/t

[tngledwebb]

18. True.

But I meant in the off chance that the story grew legs somehow, somewhere. Maybe overseas?

[lonestarnot]

17. I will not go away.

[tavalon]

9. I realistically think

that the Shrub is going to be inaugurated on January 20th. I believe that when the Congress puts forth it's challenge to the electors on Jan. 6th that the MSM will hiccup, hopefully loudly.

Now we get into my hope. It is my hope that the embers that are beginning to smoke and glow now will, much as the Watergate embers did lo those 30 years ago, take down a Republican administration that is as corrupt, nay, more corrupt than the Nixon administration.

I gave up on Kerry being in the White House sometime in November.

If the goal is to get Kerry into the White House, then you are right, it's over. But that isn't the goal, IMHO, and given what I've seen since Nov 2nd, it might not even be a good thing if he did.

The Fascists are in for another four (hopefully less), my friend, let's see what we can do to make it really hard for them, shall we?

[truthpusher]

11. Wooo! Hooo! Finally! That's to Cool! Kick!...

...sorry, I couldn't resist the opportunity of being someone trying to hard to be positive ;-) I would like to say that I agree with you and have come to terms a while back that barring anything massive and beyond our control, Kerry does not have a chance. I think any discovery made would have to be proved and would have to go beyond Ohio. The popular vote being a much wider spread than Gore/Bush, we would need a much stronger case. The truth is, fraud may even be disproved (dare I say that, here of all places). Yes there were many cases outside of voting machine manipulation, but that is normal for the GOP, inexcusable, but not unusual. However were the typical shenanigans enough to tip the scales? If The American People voted and George Bush won the election, God help us all, but maybe this is a lesson we need to learn.

[formernaderite]

12. Realistically....safe harbor has passed.

Even if a Senator stood in opposition to the results...the election would be thrown to the house and senate. Same results. Bush will be sworn in on Jan 20.
However, I do think it's important to investigate all the claims of voting improprieties. I'm just not of the election will be overturned fantasy.

[whalerider55]

13. my two sense

i believe that a highly decentralized pattern of voter suppression, intimidation and fraud resulted in the pugs taking the 2004 election and increasing their majorities in the senate and house. They began this practice in 2000 (not quite perfected at the national level, so Scalia had to bail their ass out) sharpened their skill in 2002 (bye bye Max Cleland) and perfected the art in 2004.

Think of the plan as something like sleeper cells, putting all the pieces in place over the course of four years- legislatures passing BBV laws, getting Repub Sec'y of States in place, etc.)

Having said that, by the day after election I gave up on a Kerry presidency in '04 and believed that we should have gotten as close to a take itto the streets revolution around the issue of constitutional issue of voter enfranchisement, which would have been a much better framing of the issue and should have resonated with many people, even Bush voters. failure to do so by the dems sent two messages to AMerica- the first was that unless your vote could make Kerry president, we weren't that interested in fighting for the constitutional guarentee of your right to vote; the second message was that old ralph nader piffle about there being no differences between the parties. Of course there are, when it comes to philosophy, humanity, policy, demographics- but when it comes to buying into a power structure that disenfranchises the minority party and feeds them only crumbs, the dems play by the rules- tought to do when the pugs make them, and change them at will. As active as the pugs have been in turning this into a one party country, the dems, by their failure to provide loyal opposition have contributed.

so...
i think 45 dem senators should stand up on Jan 6th and say there is enough doubt that every vote possible was cast and counted as cast that we need to take some time to think about this. It then defaults to the congress, where there is two hours of debate in each house.

Give the microphone to COnyers for the two hours in the house.
Give the mike to Byrd in the Senate
Then let the pugs steal the election in prime time, when all the MSM will have no choice but to cover it.

It will set the table, send a message to the country.

What's the downside? That the pugs will respect us less? they'll make it tougher on us legislatively? They'll call us sore losers?

All for defending the constitution?
If we've learned nothing from Karl Rove (and that is a distinct possibility) we've learned it ain't the meat, it's the motion. It's how you frame the issue. And the pugs have turned the constitution into toilet paper.

whalerider55

[wendypan]

43. good show whalerider

It is a show...a very dangerous show...alot is at stake...

The Bush camp is tightening even further. They just "fired" Scowcroft, an "old-style" moderate Republican that used to have lots of clout.

environment laws are being changed fast and furious...reports from the Brits of "torture flights" out of Iraq into Egypt.

the stakes are extremely high, people. Without the right to have our vote counted, we become more and more paralyzed and cut off from the power system.

I myself am going to D.C. on the 20th. I've demonstrated before and I'll do it again. Through the centuries, it remains a powerful form of recourse. You would be amazed how much raw power are in numbers. The MSM won't report it. It may be the only thing these crooks are still afraid of (slightly).

Keep writing (emails and snail mails). contact your local progressive groups. Stay involved. Write talking points about election fraud.

[liberal N proud]

14. We are stuck with the schmucks for another 4

What we need to fight for is exposure of those who were involved in the fraud and see that they are exposed and to prepare the people for next election to insure, this never happens again.
We lost.
Now lets win in 2006 and 2008 then beyond

That is what I am working for!

I will attend meeting of the Democratic party and try to put my two cents worth in there and try to help shape things and turn this thing around.
The other option is to do nothing and then nothing will change and we will all find our selves sitting here in 4 years complaining as we are now.

[tngledwebb]

15. If this 2nd election theft hasn't been exposed by 2006, or 2008

we won't win be winning those either. Or should I say we WILL win, yet again, but the truth will be suppressed by the evildoers and their MSM propaganda mill.

What to do about it, now, is the most important issue.

[lonestarnot]

19. Our actions must be two fold, prove the fraud and establish verifiable

vote for any further elections.

[tngledwebb]

23. I understand. But...

Highly suspicious evidence that should have at least piqued the interest of Congress, if not a full scale investigation, or better still an immediate call for a re-vote, has been assembled right here on DU and elsewhere. MSM won't touch it, Congress and Kerry are virtually MIA, and when we organize more mass protests and marches they will be downplayed or ignored by MSM, just as they did to the many world-wide anti-Iraqi war protests. What then?

[lonestarnot]

25. not MIA

[tngledwebb]

28. Sorry, how about 'very quiet at the moment'?

I trust and hope and pray Kerry and the party are moving forward with their plans, but they are moving quietly. So far.

[lonestarnot]

37. Better

[Truman01]

89. What evidence? I'm on here every day and people yap about

all the "evidence" of fraud. All I see are exit polls, where we don't even have the real data! A couple "non" affidavits, and some statements from people that the men in black came to the BOE to "adjust" the machines. Forgive me, but I don't see any evidence. If we had Evidence it would be in court instead of bouncing around here like gospel.

We LOST! All of this hubbub is just that to distract us from the hard truth that we "aren't a majority" and that the people we call imbeciles beat us.

We can do something about it though, but it requires us to get our head out of fantasy land and work on the real problems facing our party and our cause.

TC

[KaliTracy]

21. this is for our Future... this is for reclaiming democracy

it would be nice if everything "fell" into place before the electors voted and it all came out then and there. What a climax! I don't particularly see that happening -- though I'm not closing myself off to the possibility. I do believe that if it does happen there needs to be a HUGE shake up with MSM for full coverage so that people understand all of the problems, not that Bush just didn't get his elecotrs, or else Kerry would still be walking into a snake pit.

And --- if Kenneth Blackwell thinks he's gonna be Governor anytime soon, he's got another think coming to him. What has happened in Ohio -- even if it's not "punishable by law" is wrong, wrong, wrong.

So... for me, though it's about a smoking gun of sorts -- I'd be satisfied knowing that *all* players have been found accountable. If it happens too quickly, there will be a scapegoat (alas, Mr. Blackwell... I think that's you), and maybe some e-vote machine people who may get in trouble -- but we wouldn't have the entire problem. I am willing to be patient as we/lawyers/whatever dig and excise the people involved.

[Imajika]

22. Realistically..

Some members of the CBC in the House might challenge as they did in 2000, no Senator will challenge as none did in 2000.

Bush is inagurated without incident.

Kerry is free to vote and speak his conscience - no longer having to support things like the IWR believing that it was necessary to keep him politically viable.

The fraud conspiracy theories mostly fizzle out. The lawsuits go nowhere for lack of any actual evidence. Most Democrats focus on what was done wrong in 2004 and what needs to be done to beat the GOP in 06'.

The Democratic party becomes increasingly energized and a more effective opposition. Recognizing they are indeed in the minority, and that the same old inside the beltway games are pointless, the party begins shaping an optimisitic, innovative message as an alternative to Bush's permanent war and culture of fear.

Democrats assemble a field of great candidates for 06' and make solid gains, against all odds either taking back or nearly taking back the Senate. Victories in the house races are also better than expected and nearly makes Pelosi the Speaker of the House.

The Republicans are on the defensive across the board having had 8 years of almost total control, there is a sense in the media and much of the nation that it is time for a change. Hillary wins the Democratic nomination for 08' and appears to be a formidable candidate....

Imajika

[tngledwebb]

24. You say 'fraud conspiracies' , lack of evidence, the Dems

are a minority, etc. Why? Haven't you been reading these forums the last six weeks?

[Imajika]

26. Yes, exactly

"You say 'fraud conspiracies' , lack of evidence, the Dems are a minority, etc. Why? Haven't you been reading these forums the last six weeks?"

Actually, I've been here for years and read the forums quite often. I find the fraud conspiracy theories to be mostly silly, though some are laughably bizarre. I heard many of the same people, argue the same conspiracies in 2002 and nothing came of any of that either. There is always the problem of missing evidence, and this is the reason none of these lawsuits will ever survive in court. For the most part, I believe, those that cling to these fraud theories simply can not accept defeat. Each recount in Ohio or elsewhere allows them to delay having to come to terms with reality. Though, to be fair, these recounts and the publicizing of election errors does force election officials to do a better job as they know they may be called out if they screw up - and that can only be a good thing.

Yes, we Democrats are indeed the minority party, and with that comes some advantages that I am hopeful we are smart enough to take advantage of. Republicans now have to defend the status quo, Democrats are free to argue for real change as we are no longer in charge and not part of the problem.

I am quite optimistic about our odds of scoring surprising (for some) victories in 06', and for the overall direction and future of the Democratic party.

Imajika

[Not a Sheep]

29. I agree and I think people are lying to themselves...

Imajika:
"There is always the problem of missing evidence, and this is the reason none of these lawsuits will ever survive in court. For the most part, I believe, those that cling to these fraud theories simply can not accept defeat."

I couldn't agree with you more. I would love to see undeniable evidence that would stand up in court or overturn things in Ohio but I just don't see it happening.

The post "TEFLON KERRY: MORE SLICK MOVES ON PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION FRAUD" (link below) is, in my opinon, a perfect example of attempting to rationalize what is going on to make yourself feel better. There's a lot of people who replied to the thread and said it was, "awesome", "everything I've been waiting to hear" and "best post ever". I read that stuff and just think, man, you all are really grasping for straws and are going to be severly disppointed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=206056&mesg_id=206056&page=

My reply to the "TEFLON KERRY" thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=206056&mesg_id=206709

[tngledwebb]

30. In 2000 Gore won the popular vote, so Dems

are a majority, on occasion, it seems. And that's using the official tally.

But back to your choice of labels. There are conspiracy theories and there are conspiracy theories. Elvis is alive, Atlantis, UFO's, etc, well, I don't give credence to those, do you?

You see, it's the way that MSM has been throwing the 'CT' label around lately, particularly to ridicule anyone questioning the election results. Strange, isn't it? Well, I guess that depends on one's trust in MSM. But it would be better for MSM to not mince words and just come right out and say what they are implying: anyone who thinks that election fraud has occured in America is just plain loopy, c'est tout. Sure we got a few problems, but nothing serious. Now back to to the Laci show, move along everybody- all is well BushCo's America.

So please try to avoid labels. After all, by some standards, you have a 'CT' yourself- you know, no real election problems in 2000 and 2004.

Many here may find those ideas laughable, maybe a sizable majority.

[Imajika]

35. tngledwebb

"After all, by some standards, you have a 'CT' yourself- you know, no real election problems in 2000 and 2004."

Umm, I never said that. There were indeed election problems in both 2000 and 2004. There were also election problems in 2002, 1998, 1996, 1994, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Further, in 2000, the Supreme Court had zero business getting involved in the Florida recount, and I believe it is obvious that that horrible decision was partisan in nature. Though to be fair, I can also see where people on the other side believe the Florida Supreme Court overstepped its bounds and was also rendering partisan decisions. From my point of view, the Republicans just had the more powerful court on their side in 2000.

There are ALWAYS election problems, the difference is people didn't recognize how sloppy the US election process was in years past. There has always been irregularites, mistakes and incidences of outright cheating. Democrats and Republicans are both guilty of it. Democratic city machines have used their power in major urban areas to stuff ballot boxes, Republicans use all the tricks they can come up with to game the system and minimize minority and Democratic turnout wherever possible. These things have always been part of the system to some degree - some cycles it is worse than others.

The question is, was there some massive vote fraud conspiracy committed by the Republicans, something beyond the games both sides play in every election, that delivered millions of extra votes to Bush nationwide and over a hundred thousand in Ohio alone? My answer is that there is no evidence of anything other than localized errors, anomolies, mistakes, incompetence, oversights, etc, etc. The notion that the Karl Rove orchestrated some sort of nationwide conspiracy in cohorts with the voting machine companies is a theory without any believable evidence. These conspiracy theories do not get serious MSM coverage, or have any chance in court, because no one can produce any compelling evidence to back them up. First it was Diebold that was the problem, then ES&S, now Triad, and in the future these unprovable conspiracy theories will be attached to any other voting machines used in elections where people can not accept the outcome.

There was a thread awhile back that was titled something like, "I know Bush cheated, but I don't know how". That is the position many people seem to be operating from. They can't or won't believe Kerry lost, so these folks grasp at anything that gives them hope that he didn't lose at all.

Imajika

[tngledwebb]

36. You missed the point. I'm going to try the parallax view approach.

IE how much BushCo/MSM propaganda do you take at face value? Where do you draw a line? Have Bush and MSM ever lied to you?

[wendypan]

47. and the answer is...

"The question is, was there some massive vote fraud conspiracy committed by the Republicans, something beyond the games both sides play in every election, that delivered millions of extra votes to Bush nationwide and over a hundred thousand in Ohio alone?"

YES!

My brother is an encryption specialist, so I know whence I am saying it is EASY to hack. Get it? You can even do it yourself if you don't believe me. Go to dirtyhackers or hackthevote. It is a piece of cake! Diebold software fell and Triad only needs a couple lines of de-coding to go.

Hello? (But we've discussed all this on this board over and over and over again.) The naysayers come on board and bit by bit we pulll out all the peices again.

I know, I need patience....

[saracat]

66. Well, by your standards then, since there are "always"

election problems this isn't a big deal and we should just give it a "pass' , pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and move on to "08? I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. And your choice of Hillary, one of the most divisive candidates anyone could pick!
Democracy officially died in 2000. I regret that I didn't leave the country as was my choice but I was persuaded against my best instincts to stay and fight.I gave this election my all as I knew if we didn't win we would never have a real election again. This is a real possibility. We don't have control of any of the three branches of government.Who is going to want to reform elections when it is not to their benefit?
I am one of those "nut cases" who don't believe Kerry lost. Not just because I want to believe it but because it doesn't make sense otherwise.This election was obviously hacked. Electronic voting machines make that a reality. We must stop this situation in its tracks or there will not be a way back.
I am now stuck with staying here ,as a result of the economic turn down. I have chosen to fight, realizing that this was no "ordinary 'election. I think you are delusional if you think it was. We must now resuscitate democracy and the only way to do it is to prove fraud and shoe "zero tolerance " for election theft.

[wendypan]

45. Total disagreement

Have you seen the Diebold memo? (I don't have the link) of 2000 where they ask about the -17,000 gore vote in the county?

You have obviously not followed the documentation. 30,000 calls alone the day of the election! The precinct after precinct where the numbers simply do not add up?

...The indictments of major computer tabulator companies....story after story...

No fraud? You are living in a fantasy that somehow these people in power are "not that bad". No one is "that bad."

The ground is moving beneath you and you can't feel it. We will put these criminals behind bars.

[Imajika]

56. So, you have no proof then?

All you have is speculation, wild allegations and conspiracy theories. Not one shred of serious evidence, the kind that would hold up in court or stand up to any kind of serious scrutiny, exists to prove your theories. There is a reason why Kerry conceded ya know. There is a reason why very few people take any of this election fraud conspiracy stuff seriously.

Your have nothing to back up your theories. Zilch, nada, zero. That is why all of these filings will be tossed out of court, that is why no more than a handful of Democrats will contest the election (and probably none from the Senate), that is why the MSM will never give serious coverage to "the fraud".

A recount in NH turned up nothing, a recount of Alaska apparently turned up nothing, a recount in Ohio (flawed though it may have been) turned up a measly 285 more votes for Kerry in a state Bush won by nearly 120,000 ballots. Keep crying wolf for no reason, without anything to back up your assertions of fraud, and what just may happen is that one day when there is real evidence of an election theft no one will believe us.

Speculation and statistical games just don't cut it. You can run around saying Kerry really won because Bush stole the election if you wish but, without any evidence, it just sounds silly.

Sorry, but those are the facts.

Imajika

[whalerider55]

70. ouchie

a little harsh, no? Stats completely, utterly and unequivocally useful in indicating the possibility of foo pah in the system?

one of the largest and most ridiculously profitable industries in the world is based entirely on statistical games- they're called acturarial tables, and the industry is the insurance business. so they do count for something- a lot of something.

disaster planning is also based a great deal on statistical games.
and certainly, medical and epidemiological research has a stong component of statistical analysis, review and the development of theories. And if that kind of stats "gaming" can illuminate the potebntial for a cancer hotspot, doesn't it also have the potential to help identfiy an electoral cancer growing on the body politic?

as for whether there is a grand conspiracy, or a series of minor incidents completely unrelated to one another but that seem to indicate the possibility of a pattern of decentralized but effective voter "irregularities" (not fraud, just "stuff") that seemed to only affect democratic votes and districts and minorities particularly in states absolutely essential to election of the prez, well, it may not rise to the level of the conspiracy theorists, but it damn well raises my eyebrows. And given what in my 'umble opinion IS a pattern of pissing on the constitution since 1994 (from Newt to the various incarnations of the patriot act,with the acquiesence of the House and Senate democrats) by these hucksters and blowhards, anything that remotely resembles the possibility that these bastids, or even our own bastids intend to use the good old Constitution for toilet paper needs to be furiosly resisted. We can always apologize when the pugs are completely exculpated. Besides, what have dems got to lose? Credibility? I live in MA- and i've grown immune to the epithet that tossed around by those red staters all year long, the curse of being a "Massachusetts Liberal."

And anyway, what group to better understand the Goldwater bon mot "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice" than these wallowers at the shallow end of the conservative gene pool?

so, good friend, i am perfectly willing to accept that yhou have seen nothing that raises even the tiniest little doubt in your mind, and that you may even see that as THE FACT. I betcha sleep better at night than i do. And believe me, I'm an envious buckaroo.

I might find your arguments more persuasive if you used facts we could agree on.

No probs with folks here disagreeing with my slant on the problems, or my take on the solutions. But as a poster and a public official, i have always tried never to open my mouth to articulate a problem without also suggesting a potential solution. I try not to hold anyone else to that standard, which i actually think is a rather low one for useful public discourse.


whalerider55
back from vacation and wearing the flameproof body armor

[Not a Sheep]

27. They are ALL just theories...

Yeah, I've the fraud conspiracies on these forums and they range from believable to ridiculous (my favorite: a nuke was detonated to cause the tsunami and destract from the election aftermath).

However, what I think is ridiculous you may think is reasonable and vice versa. The bottom line is they are ALL conspiracy theories until something is PROVEN...

and unfortunately I don't see it happening.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bunny planet]

31. I'd say I have until January 20th to remain delusional about * being

deposed in time to prevent the start of his new term. After that, I'll concentrate on getting him impeached. My children's future is way too important to let him have his 'four more years of hell'. There are beaucoup scandals that threaten to blow him out of the water at any time, one of them has got to take him down.

[madison2000]

33. Two Answers

1. Bush will be inaugurated on January 20.

2. We will keep working to expose the liar-in-chief and his administration until they are removed from office, one way or another. It will be a scandal of proportions that make Watergate look like a misdemeanor. Bush will not finish his second term.

[KerryOn]

53. I sure hope our right..

I to have had fantasies about a scandal bigger then Watergate that would bring Bush and Co. to their knees!

[jsascj]

34. One thing is for sure...

Another OBL tape will appear near that time.

Then Bush will take office.

[The Judged]

38. The ball is rolling. The wax is gathering. We are now dissidents.

We are witnessing the roll back of civilization to the point where over 200 years of actual experience toward the actualization of Democracy will be denied or made to justify the roll back on human rights in this country and worldwide, upon the spread of "Rove & Diebold's" culture remedy.

In 2006, we will witness the two-thirds domination of Congress by the Republican party, backed by the rubber stamp "blind federal judiciary," without even a public outcry of impropriety from the masses who are incapable of differentiating the lexicon dialect infused into the English language or are too busy stabbing each other in the back in order to survive or enjoy their last vestiges of prosperity, for the non-elites in this country.

[k8conant]

39. Answer to two questions?

1. What is going to happen?
   
   1. Rossi gets new WA governor's election.
      
      1. New election overwhelmingly picks Gregoire.
         
      2. New election proves Republican fraud in original election.
         
      
      
   2. Electoral College vote is accepted by Congress on Jan. 6 after short discussion
      
      1. 20+ Representatives and maybe 2 or 3 Senators contest
         
      2. Republicans and wishy-washy Democrats sweep it under the rug
         
      
      
   3. Bush is crowned on January 20th with Cheney as his consort.
      
      1. Eventually Rapp (Triad) tabulator code and Diebold code and Sequoia code is revealed and shown to have rigged the election. (sometime in 2005)
         
      2. Bush, Cheney, and Rove never give depositions and laugh at the whole issue (Bush has Scott McClellan assert that all opponents are only looking at "one side of the issue")
         
      3. Cheney resigns in November 2005 (for health reasons).
         
      4. Bush resigns in August 2006 (for family reasons). He starts drinking and drugging again.
         
   
   
2. I give up thinking it's going to happen after it happens.
   

[wendypan]

40. OVER?

You have got to be kidding me!!!!!

These people are crooks and should be behind bars. it won't be over until these people are indicted for treason.

[FogerRox]

41. I 2nd the motion---but treason IIRC can only be charged in time of war

and congress has not declared WAr--so--well handcuffs would do-nicely-LOL

My Mission: TARGET CBS

Join the protest @ CBS in NYC or protest in DC--If enough Peeps show @ CBS I will extend the efforts to other outlets, Like ABC & NBC.

Power to the People ! !! ! ! RIght On Brother KIP ! !! !

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /
[e-mail] /

[FreeCajun]

42. The rate things are going

ESPECIALLY in the predominantly "RED" areas, WE'LL be jailed for treason for suggesting that the Heavenly King and Father of us all, GWB, could possibly have been dishonest.

I think Congress is going to bend over and take it in the rear, just like 2000, and we will all be screwed. Again, but more permanently.

[Not a Sheep]

44. Now, you must be kidding me....

If this isn't over until "these people are indicted for treason", I'm sorry but you're in for a rude awakening.

What you want to have happen and what can realistically happen are two very different things. Maybe you haven't come to terms with that yet.

Good luck

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FogerRox]

50. I'll settle for hi crimes and misnomers um mistyminers what T F

My Mission: TARGET CBS

Join the protest @ CBS in NYC or protest in DC--If enough Peeps show @ CBS I will extend the efforts to other outlets, Like ABC & NBC.

Power to the People ! !! ! ! RIght On Brother KIP ! !! !

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /
[e-mail] /

[tngledwebb]

80. USA MSM is complicit.

We need to let the country and the world know this.

[KerryOn]

46. I tend to agree. . .

Realistically, I do think that the election will be challenged, but I don't think anything much will become of it.

In my opinion there is very clear evidence that there was fraud at least in the recount in Ohio. For this reason I think the election will be contested. It will result in another recount, but I don't think the results will change the outcome. In my opinion I don't think that the Green parties law suit will ever go anywhere.

So when do we give up thinking its going to happen? I don't think we ever should. We must have hope, but we all need to learn not to set our expectations to high. That way we don't have as far to fall.

[nashville_brook]

51. the first question begs an answer to the 2nd

if people think there was widespread election fraud, then no time would be appropriate to give up. it sounds to me like you have already made up your mind that it's hopeless.

i would suggest that we are falling for Bushthink -- you know, it's their reality now, we just live in it.

that makes us slaves. i can't accept that.

so i guess my answer to your questions are:
1: realistically, we are going to keep fighting the fight until it's won.

and

2: there is no giving up.

if someone stole your child, would you be asking how long till you give up? well, they have stolen all our chilren's future. i have too many friends with draft-age kids -- i'm fighting this for them.

[Higans]

52. The only reason we can't prove fraud is because the press

was locked out. Also because the press was locked out, they can't prove their was no fraud, and they can't prove they actually counted our votes at all. If this problem is not fixed every election will be in question not only here, but around the planet. The only way there will ever be peace in Iraq is if they have transparent, fair, audited Elections, but I don't think this administration can do that. I think if they tried, the people of Iraq would write in Sudam Husane.

[mgr]

54. Depends on your goals

If your goal is to put Kerry in the White House starting 2004, you pretty much need to give it up soon, or give up your day job.

If your goal is to weaken the republican party's power and standing, or to obtain voter reform, now is not the time to give up. There are sufficient accounts of election day irregularities to give the country pause if they come to light. Much of what happened in Ohio probably could not sustain a court fight right now, as it may not have been sufficiently compelling (though all it appears to me is that Arnebeck needed to properly re-affidavit the election official to still carry his case, but he has lost precious time, I am not sure Safe Harbor has lapsed.)

One place we have not examined because we assume that no one would ever perform this kind of discrimination, but was there disenfranchisement of the Jewish vote in Florida? It is compelling that when you consider reported long lines and voter intimidation in the election, it goes Delaware and Cuyahoga Counties in Ohio, Philadelphia (PA), Wayne (MI), Palm Beach, Miami-Dade, Broward (FL), Allegany (PA). Don't take this list as exhaustive (I did not look extensively at AZ, CO, and other states) but it is interesting that one of the most populous counties, Los Angeles, had only two reports of long lines and nineteen of voter intimidation (out of 1,000 reported incidents).

If it can be demonstrated that the civil rights of two minority groups that fundamentally support the democratic party were violated in the battleground states, then there will be a reckoning, and it should reach the white house.

Mike

[New Earth]

55. all i have to say is

i'm hoping for the best, and preparing for the worst.

regardless the outcome, this is an historical moment and we should all be grateful and excited to have witnessed it all, once it has happened.

[Elise]

58. 2 Answers

I have already faced facts, so:

1. The election is over and Bushco is back in. There will be continuous arguing over the legalities, sort of like 'bread and circuses' or 'Nero fiddling while Rome is burning'

unless

2. People understand we need to deal with what IS and "don't mourn: ORGANIZE" for victories in 2006 and 2008.

[IndyPriest]

59. I am Not a Sheep! So I refuse to surrender to the Bush

frame of reference, which would make us ALL sheep! Will he be inaugurated Jan. 20? I'd say 70/30 in favor at the moment. But ask me again tomorrow because "the moment" has every chance of changing on a dime.

When do I give up thinking it's going to happen? Depends what the meaning of "it's"is!

[MarkusQ]

60. Read a detailed timeline of Watergate I. Plan for two+ years... (n/t)

[roenyc]

64. different times.

Watergate was a different time and place. things were not like they are now. too much is hidden, too many playas playing the game. no way to get the truth out - no young Dan rather. just a bunch of phony talking heads. different times. oh, and i dont think gw has a tape recorder.

[whalerider55]

75. welcome to DU

good point.

but i bet cheney has tape recorder hidden in his pacemaker.

whalerider55

[roenyc]

78. Thank you for the welcome!

i am so excited! i feel like i belong now.

[MarkusQ]

76. Times are always different.

Nixon didn't have e-mail logs. Or files on hard drives that "delete" a file by simply removing the reference to it in the index. Or the internet. Or us.

I think the two years has more to do with the time it takes for people to get their head around something than anything else.

--MarkusQ

[roenyc]

79. EGO -

who has the EGO, king G has the ego. bet he has something - ego and paranoia and we got him.

thats how Nixon got caught. so what was that bulge on his back? tee Hee.

bet you anything rummy has something on the king. that is how he is staying where he is.

and i bet its in writing or on disc or on tape, cd rom or something. ok. i feel more confident. thanks.

[politicasista]

65. As painful as this may be

Smirky is coronated on 1/20, the challenge may or may not be ignored by the MSM because the Democrats want to protect their own political futures, so they may cave into the GOP.

Sadly, even though this isn't about Kerry anymore, this may have been his only chance of becoming president (he would have made a good one) because so many here and everywhere are angry with him for not standing up to the election fraud. I don't know if Smirky will be impeached because the GOP controls everything. I agree, if something doesn't happen on the 6th, it's over, as Momma T said, it's "four more years of hell." :argh:

[mulethree]

68. Establishing a a rationale for surrender?

Heres what will happen -

The country will walk, right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot.

It will stagger around a bit right, right, left, right right, and get off course. There will be corrections.

Major corrections look like wars, depressions, movements. They come on a long timescale, like 20-50 years.

Much in our lives has sped up, transport, communication, fast food, video on demand, just-in-time supply chains, etc. So we get impatient with things that take a decade, and perhaps the timescale speeds up as well.

But it doesn't stop on the 6th or the 20th or on election day 2008. Such days may be salients, they might be a change of foot, or the start of a stagger or correction, but they are not an end.

[whalerider55]

73. mulethree

nice post, but i couldn't resist a comment and some questions

my comment is that for about the last forty years, we've been going right foot, right foot, right foot, and we are now walking in circles.

my questions are these:
what of trends that take hundreds of years to dissipate- like the dark ages, the matching of high human motivations (and not so high- exploring and greed) that devolved into the utter inhumanity of the age of exploration (the age of exploitation, as Howard Zinn might say)?

what of trends that actually aren't limited to just here in the US, but may actually, upon analysis reflect worldwide trends (religious fundementalism and jihadistic fervor)?

what about the likelihood that this time is unlkike any other in history- that religion may be the opiate of the masses, and nationalism it's soul, but in fact most power is wielded by multi-nationals who are allied only to money and would sell their own countries out for money- like Bush, and all of his brother-in-arms...

hmmm. I like your post better. more optimistic.

whalerider55

[RaulVB]

71. The regime will go down fast but fighting to stay in power

And the innocents will suffer the most, I'm afraid.

[DemGa]

72. The shrub is in, Democrats are getting much wiser n/t

[whalerider55]

74. demga

please expound on the wisdom you see being garnered out there. if there is wisdom in keeping your mouth shut and rolling over, i agree.
that that is the wisdom being garnered. i don't agree that is what we should be doing.

sheeee-it. ever follow the english and canadian governements, with their shadow cabinets and answer sessions in Parliament? They assign a member of congress to post of "shadow cabinet" member- for ee.g. Biden could be Shadow Sec'y of State, prosecutor Kerry could be Shadow Atty Gen, make Kennedy Shadow Sec'y of Health... the idea is that when one of the pug bs artists pushes some crack-brained scheme, the shadow sec'y, who has expertise in the field and on the issue, calls a damn press conference that day and says, whoa, folks, this is a crack-brained scheme. no polling, no consultants, no hjandwringing. Just direct, immediate response before the evening news goes to bed.

and the limey's have been doing this for hundreds of years, without confusing the world as to who is in charge of the government.

whalerider55

[DemGa]

77. I think that what

has happened with Christine Gregoire in Washington is a good example. We didn't roll over there. We're insisting all the votes get counted, putting heavy scrutiny on the process, which should lead to reform in that area. We know their tricks, I hope were geting wiser to them. This is more of a prediction, but I see Dems regrouping and hitting hard, exposing the truth, winning elections.

[AntiFascist]

81. Regardless of the outcome...

we have a unique and rare opportunity to bring this issue into the forefront of the mainstream media, humiliate the Bush administration, and possibly force a lame duck condition that may help to prevent:

* A draft
* future aggression in the Middle East to further the neocon agenda
* appointment of right-wing supreme court justices
* further deterioration of our liberties
* more outsourcing opportunities
* more tax cuts for the rich
* more poverty conditions for the poor
* privatization of social security
* the list goes on and on

[EFerrari]

82. That's right. kick

[Old Mouse]

83. an overly complicated answer

Technology is changing the way we communicate at a pace beyond the ability of those the age of people in power can comprehend. You had to be born in a world where the Internet already existed to fully master communication on IM.

Social dynamics are becoming erratic and hard to predict. Traditional trend and attitude setters, TV, movies, magazines, are diffused, and less potent. Confabulation on the part of corporate controlled media makes accurate reading of national morality or ascetic nearly impossible for the average man. Public opinion, which used to change slowly, can now pivot in an instant yet most have no idea what that true opinion is.

These are important factors to consider, as
1)underestimation of technological communication over
traditional media has seriously hurt the attempted coup.
2) the coup's control on power requires an ignorant and
divided nation.

I believe we have failed in our primary goal. Even with a congressional challenge, Bush will be inaugurated. We just don't have the needed publicity to recruit serious senate support.

However, we have successfully planted seeds of doubt in the public perception about the legitimacy of the Bush administration, and have created a enough of a healthy distrust of our unprotected election systems that these tools might not be readily available in 2006. This victory is a major one, and should be celebrated fully. Decades of carefully evolved tactics have been exposed in a matter of months.

The loss of media influence has crippled any attempt to curb the radical Republican element from illegally using and consolidating power. Fortunately, the influence of this media is undergoing a generational reduction. The youth of today do not get their news from traditional media, watch less TV and are online less than previous generations, and show a remarkable resistance to scripted marketing messages. They are, for the most part, multi-cultural, liberal, and if we can keep them from cynical disillusionment, they are our greatest hope. Their uncanny ability to communicate will fill the void of our failed traditional media.

The true public majority are against the Bush administration. The youth are immune to his words. With a fair election and the continued disintegration of Bush's performance, Democrats will easily take back the house in 2006. Then, there will be impeachment, and hopefully, cake.

Our most real and imminent danger is what Bush plans to do in order to insure that there are not fair elections in 2006.

[tngledwebb]

86. What are their plans?

They may not be planning for most of us to be around in 2006. Looks that way from here, anyway.

[fasttense]

84. There will be a huge backlash

One thing I've noticed about the American public is they are Not Quick to pick up any new idea. They will chew on it for a couple of years then get off their butts and fight back.

The American public has been chewing on the illegitimacy of B*sh for over four years. Now with some voter fraud getting some press, they are chewing on his illegitimacy again. Within the next four years there will be such an anti-Repug backlash that they will be lucky to get window washer jobs. It's coming and the Repugs think simply holding the positions of authority will protect them. It wont.

A backlash against them will come, it's just a matter of time.

[Walt Starr]

91. Realistically? Bush is president for four more years

I'll give up on that idea when impeachment hearings start or the fuck chokes on another pretzel.

[bush_is_wacko]

92. Jan 6th!

I agree, there has to be an objection by a Senator on the 6th! Our government has a war. a sagging economy, and an imminent attack on SS to deal with, not to mention a tsunami disaster of gigantic proportions. If the objection isn't recorded in the history books, they will have no choice but to move on to the other issues. If the objection is heard and registered, only then can they continue to appoint an investigative committee to deal with that issue. *Co has done a VERY good job of placing attention grabbing issues in front of our government. ALL of these issues are potential disasters for the United States. Yes, I think he'll be inaugurated regardless, but the objection would keep the issue front and center, where it belongs.

[NicRic]

93. Nothing except lip service !

Iam just so tired of being let down ,Iam not going to point the finger at one piticular person or org. I believe its a combination of many doing nothing ,that adds up to a big do nothing. We are stuck with this nightmare of a pResident ,four more years ,and hopfully we wont end up with brother Jeb for eight years after that. Iam afraid that they will have garnered so much more power by the end of Jr's second term ,that Jeb will win using the same tired old higher morals B/S we have had to hear from jr. The sad part is so many American voters buying into this B/S .What action has bush taken to prove he is a man of high morals ,invade a country and kill thousands of inocent people. About the spend 40 million on a inaguration party for himself ,while thousands more die from diasease and hunger in Asia. I hope he chokes on a big lobster tail. What his beliefs really teach our young , is being so full of yourself that you ignore the suffering of others,is the way to live a happy life !