Exclusive Club

[mordarlar]

I could not wait to join this message board. Having spent months in a bipartisan message board, breaking down each talking point they threw one by one, over and over, i finally found a place of like minds. As it turns out, i would rather be with the Republicans. I cannot place a finger on it specifically but there is a closed door club here. And this is fine. I just misunderstood. I mistakenly believed it was an inclusive pool of increased thoughts, ideas and opinions.

I live primarily on instinct. It was this instinct that told me everything that was going on in 2000 even though i did not have access to a computer and others to tell me what to think or feel. I had to read between the lines. There was nobody telling me what to look for. It was this instinct that told me that Bush was a dangerous man. This same instinct is telling me that there are a great number here that simply tolerate those outside the loop. They offer the key only to those they choose.

All i have to say for these people, you do not have dominion over the place we find ourselves. We all have equal ownership of the frustration , the anger, the information and the fight.

To those of you who DO respond, and include people simply because they have a shared concern, and not because they have "honored" the correct people, i congratulate you for understanding the true and most important issue. That WE ALL HAVE A VOICE and that we all have a great deal at stake.

To all those in the "clique". You can look down from your lofty places if you choose. But those of us speaking clearly to the masses Rep. and Dem. are fighting just as hard a battle. Anyone can rant to a loyal following. Try swaying someone who fundamentally disagrees with you. Therein lies the real challenge. I will bother you no longer. :thumbsdown:

[ClassWarrior]

1. Sorry you feel that way. I for one...

...welcome you to DU. :hi:

NGU.

[mordarlar]

60. Thank you...

That is very kind of you. To answer your question of why a post, it is the same as anything posted on these forums. I saw something, felt cause to define it, and move on. I did not expect the response, nor am i completely comfortable with it. I was not seeking this. I am overly goofy today. And i wanted to point something out.(as i would any concern) This is all. Shannon

[Jo March]

2. Um, what? I'm not sure what happened. Why such a drastic

measure?

Yes, the boards here are a bit rough at times. I've been yelled at and fussed at as well but I hang in there.

This board leans left and does not lean to the right. It is not the place for anything right-wing, especially trolls, freepers and the like. It is, however, pretty calm and well-moderated.

Here's my story of a forum gone bad, for what it's worth: I am a huge Alabama fan and found a forum for AL fans. I was in heaven...until I posted. I was roundly denounced for misspelling a word, yelled at for using caps (in ROLL TIDE, of all things, LOL) and then was accused of being an Auburn fan! Well, that last one made me post something very similar to your post above. Needless to say, I've never been back and am glad of that. All of that criticism happened within the first 3 posts that I made on that board! No welcome, no "how do you do", nothing.

The point I'm trying to make is that this site isn't all bad. It's filled with some asses who have opinions (like me) but all in all, it's a good site.

I'd hate to see you go but if you don't feel at home here, then perhaps it's for the best.

And here is my belated "Welcome to DU!" :hi:

[mordarlar]

61. Thank you for the welcome... and the story : ) n/t

[HeyManThatsCool]

96. To Me The Point Is....

Some people here are as kind as can be. Warm, welcoming & informative to talk to. It's easy to have thought provoking discussions with many of you- & to learn from alot of what is posted here.

The problem is that the people who don't accept "newbies" are rude & patronizing. And it brings almost every subject down to the lowest common denominator when they start calling people out & being snide in general. For me personally it makes me feel uncomfortable. Is there something we are supposed to do to "prove" our interest in the Democratic party?

Look- I'm a realist. I understand that there ARE freepers & republican nuts that lurk here. There are Dems that lurk on their boards too I am sure. But we can'tlet a few bad apples spoil it for everyone. If there are people in here posting to be idiots-- let them! Who cares. Eventually they will lose interest and move on to something else.... like picketing in front of Planned Parenthood Centers & working on taking away our civil rights. Until they go away can't we all just get along?????

[mordarlar]

98. I felt it too. : / ...

I think you are right though about where it is coming from. I think with the hits and attacks we have ALL taken in the past few mos. a lot of us have become more cautious. I personally have trouble with this and have a difficult time understanding it in others. I tend to be on the sleeve. I know time is ticking. I know we are all going to need each other. Gut is screaming it. Seems the more we draw up defenses the more the others win. Divide and conquer.

[HEAVYHEART]

3. I hope you don't leave

For you mordarlar:

[dogindia]

14. beautiful rose. nature uses air, water, soil and light to make

extraordinary beauty. all very different things.

[nashville_brook]

19. beautiful! gardenia?

i can smell it from here!

[mordarlar]

62. ....

:hug: Thank you

[Darkhawk32]

4. I understand the frustration... being new and all...

I've been told to "fuck off" for promoting caution in bloating hopes too high. Some people are nice, some people are assholes, just like in the real world. Just ignore them and state your opinions.

[glitch]

5. Lots of good info here, many many posters. But you need to use the ignore

button. Cliques are just a click away.
Welcome to DU.

[mordarlar]

63. LoL Thank you

[thoughtanarchist]

6. WTF are you talking about?

can you paste examples of this "closed door club"?

"You can look down from your lofty places if you choose"

I've heard this type of language before, and sadly it is not a call for inclusiveness and united effort. It sounds like an appeal to divisiveness. That is a message we do not need at this time.

[TexasLawyer]

7. Reconsider

mordarlar-- I wish you would reconsider. I've enjoyed and appreciated your posts so far, which is why I recognize your name.

There's a baby in that bathwater-- don't throw it all away.

[mordarlar]

65. Thank you...

Just really beat. It is seeing the highest and lowest humanity has to offer on a daily basis, that is so exhausting. I am going to ban myself from all news. Yeah riggghhht! Thank you for the encouragement. It struck true. : )

[lonestarnot]

8. Whatsamattafoyou Whineybutt?

:crazy:

[Jo March]

17. LOL! That's what I call my daughter sometimes!

Whineybutt!

[lonestarnot]

42. My son too!

[Jo March]

126. How old is your son?

Daughter is 6, the perfect age for whining.

[s-cubed]

48. if you meant this in humor, it didn't come across that way to me.

[lonestarnot]

51. FYIYCTAJ

[ohio_liberal]

9. Someone here...

suggested that I was a Freeper mole within my first 20 posts on DU. You've gotta develop a think skin if you want to hang out on a message board with so many strong opinions.

[FogerRox]

10. Yeah Iknow--I'm still a newbie--but such is life--on the other hand--

My Mission: TARGET CBS

Join the protest @ CBS in NYC or protest in DC--or protest a TV station in your area. If enough Peeps show @ CBS I will extend the efforts to other outlets, Like ABC & NBC.

Power to the People ! !! ! ! RIght On Brother KIP ! !! !

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /
[e-mail] /

[Jo March]

18. FogerRox, you are nothing if not persistent

And I love that in a Democrat!! :)

Keep moving forward and develop a thick skin. That's the only way we'll beat 'em.

[FogerRox]

21. Fight -Fight -Win- Win-LOL--Oh did I say picket CBS in NYC?

Fight -Fight -Win- Win-

yeah that too--

[Jo March]

23. Gooooooooooooooooooo, FogerRox!

Whoo hooo!!!!!

I hope that you shut CBS down with an enormous crowd!!

[FogerRox]

29. Power -- to --- the -- People -- - -- Power to the People

RIGHT ON ! ! ! !! Suuround CBS--Envelope them--We dont no stickin CBS---we dont need you--30 million Peeps get their news from someplace
else its called the internet and Air AMerica Radio--hey CBS do your advertisers know this?
HAHAHAHAhhahahhaha ha

[mordarlar]

66. I hear ya...

[mattclearing]

11. I don't see the clique. After searching your posts, I'm sad to see you go.

You shouldn't let yourself be discouraged. A lot of people here jump down each others' throats for little or no reason. It IS a message board. Your posts are interesting and informative.

I ask that you stick it out a bit longer. You may find there is more understanding here than you realize.

[mordarlar]

67. : )

[Eloriel]

97. I don't see the clique(s) either -- what I DO see

is a fairly large group of people who have been here a while nad share a lot. We share a common language (specialized jargon), common slef- and mutual education about what is the True Nature of our Reality (the Red Pill version), a common understanding about our "enemy(ies) -- who they are from the Bush clan to the PNACers and Straussians and how they got where they are, common attitudes about 9-11 and a bunch of other stuff, etc.

Frankly, I'm not willing to give up that "clubbiness" or what you and others may regard as an elite club. And the reason is not so much to EXclude good (if sometimes poorly informed) people, as to simply preserve a place where my sanity gets validated and we don't have to go thru the trouble of educating EVERYONE daily to bring them up to speed. There's enormous amounts of information here -- paradigm crashing, earth-moving, tectonic-plate shifting stuff that most people never dream of knowing or understanding about our world. If that's not your cup of tea, fine. Perhaps your former bipartisan paradise is more your appropriate hangout.

And speaking for myself, tho I know there are others who would agree with me (and plenty who would not), I'm a LOT less interested in "educating" people who saunter in and can't wait to tell us what's wrong with us and how we should behave, and who imagine they know everything already. There are an amazing number of people who feel some right to do that, as newbies. It boggles my mind. I don't know if this applies to you or not, frankly, and don't much care. If we're a poor fit for you in your opinion, I'm perfectly happy to accept your assessment of the situation and tell you faretheewell and ta ta!

[mordarlar]

101. Interesting i used the Red Pill analogy a day or so ago n/t

[mattclearing]

125. You know, it's funny, because I saw that in your post, and I too made it

a week or so ago. The red pill analogy is great for a lot of things, particularly things that the media has tried to frame in ways that may or may not be accurate, among them the recent presidential election.

[mordarlar]

128. I wonder sometimes what it would be like to be one of the "blind"

I feel as if i live in the twilight zone at times. It all seems so clear as to hurt the eyes. And still some just cannot see it. Unbelievable....

[ClassWarrior]

12. Please help me to understand something.

I've never been able to figure out why someone who has become disillusioned here and intends to leave would go to all the trouble of writing a lengthy, involved thread like this. If you've given up on us, isn't taking the time to do something like this futile? Wouldn't it be easier to just leave?

What's the purpose? Do you secretly want us to convince you to stay? Are you just taking a parting shot? Something else? Please enlighten me.

NGU.

[seito]

20. Perhaps the poster is referring to the DUDQ meet-ups

Of course we never get an invitation either. I would not consider that an exclusive clique...

[ClassWarrior]

24. It's the most popular club in school!

Hey Warrior Princess... :hi:

NGU.

[salin]

13. a bit of perspective

I posted here for a long time before folks "saw and responded". Mostly because this is a relatively large forum and there are a lot of voices.

I find the most value for my interests in the latest breaking news forum. Where people discuss the news - and more important to me - link current stories to recent and not so recent related stories. It has allowed me to develop a much broader picture - one that I do use to get folks "on the other side" and fence sitters to think/reflect upon.

There are many aspects to this message board and depending on ones needs different forum can serve different purposes. For example, there are those who live in areas where they never hear a progressive word... and those folks need to rant and rave with others for a sense of community. And over those folks find one another (and a "cliche" of a sort is born). There are others like me who follow the news. And others who want the indepth information and discussions that occur either in a particular policy area (say - economics) or that can also be found on some of the linked items in the editorial forum. Again - those folks become familiar with one another over time. In the smaller forums - it is much easier to find conversation and feel "heard".

I don't post as much as I once did - due to a fact of my life outside of DU... and as such even though I have a lot of posts - the crowd has changed over time and I often find few listening it is, at times, like being a newby all over again. It can be frustrating, I understand that. But DU, like many places, is often a place that you need to figure out how it can best serve our needs as a community and use it that way.

best of luck to you - and keep up the good fight for the minds of fellow citizens. That is where our "battle" will be won.

[keepthemhonest]

15. I agree

with the welcoming posters above.There are times when one minute you are helping someone get some info and then the next minute they are calling you stupid. Been there.:cry:

Mostly though it is a very good productive place, depending on what threads you find yourself diving into. Please stay, we need and welcome all new Duer's.I am not in a clique, i just wonder around looking for the next action to partake.

Please stay and welcome.:hi:

[Jo March]

22. keepthemhonest, I am with you

I tend to gravitate towards the posts that are asking for action. I want to do something and so I try to flit from one action post to another.

I've been ignored and taunted and teased but hell, my family does that too.

DU, for the most part, is a great forum for Progressives. I don't think that I could leave if I tried.

Now, how many of you have faxed your Senators? If you haven't, go to www.thedeanpeople.org and get to work!

I've faxed just about every Senator in the country! Whooo hooo!

[keepthemhonest]

30. Maybe

are families helped prepare us for real life and DU. i think everyone should go to that link Arnheim and send out letters to all the senators you will feel so much better.Also, go to the PDA Website it is good too.

[Pacifist Patriot]

58. Isn't that the truth?

I've had one person practically worship at my feet and another person cast me in the role of the anti-Christ. Mostly it's somewhere in between.

[seito]

16. Exclusive Club Hmmmm....

I must say I disagree. There is no closed door. There is no circle of trust. (Sorry, just saw "Meet the Fockers") As far as preferring to be with Republicans, that is a personal choice. Sometimes here at DU, I feel that we no longer have a need for them. We are quite efficient at eating our own.

There seems to be a place here for everyone. I have to be honest, I do not venture far from this forum, the JK group and the lounge. GD and GD Politics tend to get my blood pressure up. However, it does provide ample opportunity to mix it up with many that fundamentally disagree with me.

[FogerRox]

25. "There is no circle of trust"-ya know I hadnt thought of it like that

I think you have a good point-and yes it makes sense to me. There being a difference 'tween a clique---and a circle of trust.. very good

My Mission: TARGET CBS

Join the protest @ CBS in NYC or protest in DC--or protest a TV station in your area. If enough Peeps show @ CBS I will extend the efforts to other outlets, Like ABC & NBC.

Power to the People ! !! ! ! RIght On Brother KIP ! !! !

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /
[e-mail] /

[senseandsensibility]

26. What do you mean by

I would rather be with the Republicans? I can support most of what you said. I have felt that way occasionally, but I have a thick skin. I've learned to ignore the posts and posters that push my buttons. The clique thing does exist to a certain extent. I can overlook it, but it does take away from the openess of the board. I have noticed that certain members will get hundreds of positive responses to a thread that would have floundered if a "nobody" posted it. Such is life. Most of us learned that we can't control this kind of thing back in junior high. BUT....YOU WOULD RATHER BE WITH REPUBLICANS? Maybe you're better off with them then. Have fun!

[nashville_brook]

27. don't get discouraged. if you really believe that swaying those with

different opinions, then you might just be getting argument fatigue. maybe you have higher expectations of DU'ers b/c we are ostensibly of the same ilk. therefore, it should be more commodious here. the fact that it's not always that way is a good thing according to the tone of your post -- if you'd rather hang with repubs on other forums, then you must have a taste for controversy.

stay, challenge, write --- there's room for everyone as long as we play nice. and if someone isn't playing nice with you -- use the alert button!

please reconsider.

[pacalo]

28. Speaking as one who is not in any cliques...

There are thousands of people who are members of this board, so don't be offended that this is the first time I've seen your name, which goes to show you how big this board is. Not everyone is in a clique. Bonds do happen over time on discussion boards, but as you said, "we all have equal ownership of the frustration, the anger, the information, & the fight."

So why isn't that enough? Speaking for myself, it's not friendship I'm looking for; I needed a place for venting my frustration -- just like you. I don't know the particulars of what you've experienced here so I don't know if you're being extra sensitive or if you had a certain expectation that wasn't met.

My advice is to go with the flow, let things slide off your shoulder. We Democrats have gone to hell & back with this fascist administration & with its second stolen election; we're all frustrated, so take everything with a grain of salt.

[SharonRB]

31. Sorry you feel that way, Mordarlar

Let me start by saying "Welcome to DU!" In some ways I can see how you feel. I'm still pretty new, as well, and sometimes feel like I'm on the outside looking in. There are so many people out here who have been here a long time that they've developed personal relationships and their own special language. I get very few responses to my posts, but I continue to post and gather as much information as I can. I've become addicted. Part of my problem, I think, is that I'm usually out here during the day and find myself posting to threads that have taken place the previous night -- I miss a lot while I'm sleeping, I find. I think people don't go back and see if there's anything new the next day. Don't any of you ever get any sleep?

Mordarlar, if you're still out there reading this, please try to stick with it. Most of us have the same goals -- fighting for democracy and changing the system so it's fair and transparent. It all takes time and (forgive the wording) "hard work," but if we can affect some change, it will be worth it for future elections. I still hope we can change the outcome of this election by some miracle, but I'm starting to realize that that just may not happen as we would have wished. We may have to wait for the Evil Empire to fall when all of the facts come out to the general public. In some ways, victory then may be even sweeter.

[KoKo]

135. Mordarlar joined on 12/28....that's hardly time enough to have a full view

of DU...amazing that someone would be so quick to judge, coming in at "holiday" time and all....:eyes:

[troubleinwinter]

32. DU is like a big family...

with spats, fights, shifting alliances, laughter and tears, oh... and some pouting. But we all share the same last name: Democratic Underground.

[meganmonkey]

33. Hmmmm...MHO

Okay, I have searched your posts, looked at some of the threads (I'm at work, so not ALL of them) and I don't see anything where you have been attacked or misjudged.
Look, I have been posting here for just a few months. I had a couple weeks of super-power-posting, thus giving me my 1000+ status quite quickly, but I am a relative newbie. Despite all my posts, I bet very few people here even recognize my poster name, let alone have an opinion of what type of person/thinker/activist I am. Does this make me feel left out? Hell, no. I am certainly no member of a clique or an inner circle. I really don't see much of a 'clique' or 'cool crowd' here. There are people who are closer to the front lines than others. THAT IS GOOD FOR DU. They may talk like they're in the know, that's because they ARE. Other posters have been around for years and know each other very well. Other posters just post a whole lot so their name is on every thread you see. But remember, there are over 60,000 people registered here. If you need more personal attention or something, go to a smaller board. This is a big-ass community.

Not to mention, you have been on this board for all of 2 DAYS!!! Are you ready to judge 60,000 people already? Either way, I wish you luck in your next endeavor.

Peace.

[Patsy Stone]

34. Well, I hope I'm on the guest list!

mordarlar, I've read your posts (and you've posted to my threads, I think) and I'm not really sure what you're talking about. We do go off in a tizzy sometimes and we certainly do eat our own every once in a while. Call it catharsis, call it nervous energy, call it hormones, call it insanity.

We are a bunch of passionate people with varying opinions. We run the gamut of perceptions on any given issue, candidate, direction of the political parties and even TV shows.

There are people here who actually, physically know each other. There are people here who correspond by emails. There are people here who know no one and have to catch up and figure out who does what and who is who and whom to avoid.

We've all been there and, yes we are all over the place. Stick it out if you can, we're kinda funny, too.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[libertypirate]

35. Not a challenge at all...

It is easier then you could image to get someone who won't listen to listen.

Offer to them the possibility that you might not be right. They fall for it each and every time. It is so simple, and they won't expect it... *'s brain can not kill your credibility if you let someone question it up front.

Say things are you at least open to the possibility?

Would you be willing to look at some source information?
Then I give them the Conyers Letters.

I love this one; "I would rather be wrong and a crazy fool, then right and silent."


YOU PUT THE CREDIBILITY BACK ON THE INFORMATION, AND UNDO THE KARL EFFECT!!!

Don't wait for the media, tell a friend, tell a enemy, tell someone; this election was stolen and that is un-American.

[SmokingJacket]

36. We're all just sitting alone in our empty rooms.

There's lots of in-joking, and history, but that happens at any place where there's a lot of milling around and chatting.

I remember when I was in the hospital having my baby, the people who got there 12 hours before me seemed like SUCH old hands, and were best friends with the nurses, and I totally hated them. But the people who arrived 12 hours later... gawd, total noobs!

The cliquishness thing is mostly an illusion.

If you have interesting things to say, people here will listen.

That is not the case everywhere.

[Miami Liberal]

37. I'm not sure what you mean

Were you attacked by other posters? I guess you've got to be pretty thick-skinned around here sometimes but that's also true in real life. Don't feel intimidated to post your thoughts, some will agree and some won't that's just the nature of this wonderful board.

Edit: The only "clique" I belong to is the Keith Olbermann estrogen-brigade and we accept anyone. The only prerequisite are floaty hearts. :loveya:

[Patsy Stone]

40. LOL!

:loveya:

And, yes, estrogen is NOT required. XX or XY, all are welcome.

[crispini]

43. Bwahahahaha!

The Olbermann Estrogen Brigade clique! :P

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

Yes, all are welcome! :hi: Nightly at 7 CST! :evilgrin:

[Patsy Stone]

45. Everytime

I see BWAHAHAHAHAH it makes me laugh. Thanks.
Also, according to WRP, we should be getting ready to smile.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=212179&mesg_id=212179

:)

[Pacifist Patriot]

57. We need to get Clive Owen reporting on election fraud.

I heart KO, but I don't floaty heart him.

[Patsy Stone]

64. Oh, my...

I just got a case of the vapors.

Is it getting warm in here??

[mordarlar]

68. I assume from the floaty hearts you are all into KO?

[genieroze]

38. Whatever butters your bread. eom

[Peace Patriot]

39. It's a pretty vague charge, Mordarlar...

...and I can't quite get my mind around it, but I'm guessing that...

1. You're a "moderate" politically, unhappy with the way things are (the BushCons and their evil), and have often found yourself in discussions--have sought them out--with Republicans, both moderate and Bush-illusionist, and maybe some moderate "head in the sand" Democrats, and you've argued with them trying to get them to see reality;

2. You've been very frustrated in those efforts, and have sought out this Leftist Democratic site, and want to give us the benefit of things you've learned from the above discussions and arguments;

3. You thought we would be more kindred spirits, open to discussing how to convince the above types of people to see things our way; and

4. You're impatient with us--and find yourself getting dissed--because we don't want to figure Republicans out any more, we've had it with them, and we find no use in--and a lot of danger in--tailoring our arguments toward the middle and the right.

I'm making a lot of assumptions here--but your complaint doesn't provide much detail to work with.

Off the top of my head: When you're dealing with a society that is succumbing to illusion--as ours is--you need to protect yourself from the pervasive brainwashing, by finding dissenters and radicals and other "outsiders" who can keep reinforcing your contact with what you know is reality. I think that's where we're at, at DU. We know what's true in this BushCon world. We see it better than anybody. We, too, have friends, relatives, co-workers, who are half-besotted with the BushWorld illusion. They seem to have turned their brains off--or parts of their brains. But you don't cure people like that by buying into their illusions or half-illusions.

As to convincing others, I think our most important tasks right now are:

1. Informing Kerry voters what happened in the election. Most don't know. They wanted the BushCons out. They thought they and all of us had succeeded. The TV told them otherwise. They are trying to accommodate to what they THINK is reality, but really isn't.

(Primarily they don't know that the Exit Polls they saw on their TV screens on Election Night had been altered. The Exit Polls said Kerry won. The "official" Republican-controlled electronic vote tabulators said Bush won. The TV networks mixed these numbers together, making it seem like Bush won both the Exit Polls and the "official results." If Kerry voters had been shown the two disparate numbers--as people got to see in the Ukraine--they would have been very angry, demanding investigations, and in the streets.)

2. Convincing KERRY VOTERS to support the Election Fraud struggle, and beyond that, to join together to restore our right to vote.

You notice I said "Kerry voters." I don't care about convincing Republicans. WE are the majority. We won. And our victory was taken from us by devious electronic means and massive vote suppression. The evidence for this is overwhelming. We have lost the right to vote. In essence, we no longer have a democracy in the United States. And we MUST restore it NOW.

There can be no "moderate" position on our right to vote. It's all or nothing. And if that seems radical to you, and if I seem intolerant about it, you are right. I am radical and intolerant on this matter.

Once we restore our right to vote, then I am totally open to discussions of other issues, and to convincing others of my views, or listening to theirs.

But as long as their "views" include election fraud as an okay means of gaining power, and having their views dominate, then I really don't care what they think, and I find no reason whatsoever to listen to them or to accommodate them.

That's the bottom line. I might hate their views on war, on torture, on breaking international law, on violating the Constitution, or on corporate greed and tax cuts for the rich. I love politics. I'll discuss these things with any honest person.

But I will not tolerate anyone who denies me and others our rightful say in who runs our government.

And the truth of the matter is that all of the above listed BushCon views could not stand in a free and open democracy. They cannot win honest elections. That's why they've worked so hard to prevent them.

Anyway, Mordarlar, I hope you stay. And welcome to you!

I hope you will gain some understanding of us, and help us find a way to throw off this fascist coup.

[senseandsensibility]

41. Nice post, peacepatriot!

I'm impressed by the amount of time you took to respond to the poster. I share your sentiments!:-)

[mordarlar]

46. D*mn,did not expect all this.

>>>1. You're a "moderate" politically, unhappy with the way things are (the BushCons and their evil), and have often found yourself in discussions--have sought them out--with Republicans, both moderate and Bush-illusionist, and maybe some moderate "head in the sand" Democrats, and you've argued with them trying to get them to see reality;<<<



I am not sure, honestly, that a simple title of who i am and what i stand for suffices. I am a thirty-two yr old, PTSD diagnosed, childhood survivor of drug addicted parents, sister of a desperately ill, medically discharged, Air Force serviceman, artist, writer, God believer, religion hating, movie fan, VERY recent non-smoker, casual drinker, rapidly graying auburn haired, over and under-sexed, recently discovered optimist, too tired to sleep, divorced mother of three, beautiful, brilliant and creative young daughters. I have not figured out a way to compress all this into a one word catch all title yet.; )

I find hypocrisy in a Fundamentalist idea that to steal, cheat, lie and kill are alright in a fight for morals. I also find hypocrisy in a Liberal stance of "you are stupid, so no matter what you say, it has no substance" as an acceptable way to fight for the respect and rights of all. I myself am full of hypocrisy. It is not of course intended. (most of the time, lol) I wish there was a unity among all of us, who want to stop the Bush machine before it grinds the world to unrecognizable, bloody pieces.

I have spent time, some sought, some not, trying to get others to see, what seem like obvious realities. This is from another message board....


8888888>I remember when I actually believed that everything our country did was wonderful and for the good of all. Now I'm terribly disillusioned and embarrassed by what's going on.<

You too huh? I remember getting in an argument with my fiancee about the Iraq war (back when I bought all the BS). I actually used to think that if an American President declared that he had evidence that there was a threat to national security that he should be given the benefit of the doubt and trusted even if he said he couldn't actually produce that evidence. And I didn't even like Bush.

Boy do I feel like a rube now. Nothing like discovering you've been suckered. Now of course I no longer dislike Bush, I loathe him, his administration, indeed, his entire support network of GOP yesmen, media propagandists, and the apparently unthinking masses who voted for him. The whole thing makes me sick.

>I wish I could believe we were a great country like we used to be.<

That's the part I'm really having trouble with. Knowing that we were once a great country and are no longer. What I can't figure out is whether to be more upset at our fall from respectibility or that those responsible are not only not being held accountable, but are actually being REWARDED for their incompetance!888888



They WANT TRUTH. This is also from another board...



88888Pres.Bush won the Election because,most Americans voted for him,and that's all that matter.No one can change this,no matter what they try to come up with.88888



This is an example of one who does not want truth. Right now she has power. She is a member of the "majority" This is all that matters. This might be the first time in her life she is on a "winning" side. What she doesn't, or does not want to, realize is that she is really part of a diminishing minority.



>>>>2. You've been very frustrated in those efforts, and have sought out this Leftist Democratic site, and want to give us the benefit of things you've learned from the above discussions and arguments;<<<<


Not frustrated, actually awed, by some of the people and the responses by them. People are breaking in their stances. Quite a large number of them do not want to win, if winning is due to corruption. Unfortunately, the loudest are the ones who desperately do not want the power to shift. They yell because they HAVE NOTHING ELSE. They have no facts to support them. They see the fractures in the lies. They know it is only a matter of time before they have to eat their bravado.

Overlooked, are the quiet ones who hungrily read every new thing presented to them. Every new opinion. They ask in PM questions of clarification. They ask for forgiveness for their error and they ask for comfort. I have great admiration for these people. I cannot say, i would be as gracious, if roles were reversed. I hope, but am not sure, i would be able to swallow my pride so admirably.

>>>>3. You thought we would be more kindred spirits, open to discussing how to convince the above types of people to see things our way; and

4. You're impatient with us--and find yourself getting dissed--because we don't want to figure Republicans out any more, we've had it with them, and we find no use in--and a lot of danger in--tailoring our arguments toward the middle and the right.<<<<



I am tired though. I am frustrated. I know what is at stake. My children are 5, 7 and 12. I know what they will have to face should we fail. I cannot live in a country, where their creativity might be a threat to their well being. Should one of them make a mistake too young, i do not want them to be told they HAVE TO bear a burden they are unprepared for. I refuse to teach them that God is a hateful God. Yet by teaching them otherwise, I may be putting them at future risk. I am scared and tired. Lonely and ashamed. So many others feel the same things. I see others desperate for some direction and they are dismissed.

I have the threads here bobble like a fisher price toy on the ocean with each new bit of info. I have also seen people HERE, desperate to understand what is going on when the masses panic. Only a few bother to step outside and explain. People here are not all knowing. We are all, here, fortunate enough to see clearly, more than some others. Yet with each new new comment, we shift. We cannot condemn others for going through this same process, simply because they are a few steps behind us on this path. These people are affected by the tides as well. Honestly, i am of the opinion that THEY ARE THE TIDE.

I have not been attacked at all, by the people here. Actually most have been very kind. I am neither thin-skinned or overly sensitive. But i have little tolerance for either idle fighting or condescension. My frustration has nothing to do with the people here and the level of sway they show outside of here. But i also will not swoon to anyone simply because they are a regular on DU. My frustration is that here, of all places, it should not be necessary to PROVE anything. I have been watching this site occasionally for the better part of a year. I have learned a lot and expect i will continue to. The thing is, i realize there really is nothing for me to contribute here. I have neither time, nor desire to build up a network. It is the rumblings in the world that made me seek the companionship here. Likewise it is the rumblings of the world that prevent me from having the time to "build" companionship here. I need to know i am a part, now. If a battle is coming i want to know who i will fight beside NOW.

The post you wrote was very thoughtful, and very near perfect in it's accuracy. I am grateful to you and the others here for caring about this stranger enough to take the time. Means a lot.


I have not had a cigarette in 3 1/2 days. :::sigh:::

[s-cubed]

49. Thanks, mordalar, for sharing that with us.

I came here after Nov 2, desparately looking for hope, for a community, for some way to channel my fear, anger, and disappointment into positive action.

Mostly, it's been great. Knowing that others are on the same emotional roller coaster helps me cope. I do not like the ugly personal attacks, though sometimes I realize they are meant as humor. I do not like the "hate * " threads, and just ignore them. I do not brand all Republicans with the same tar: most of my relatives are Republicans, and one is even a * appointee, and dislike it when others consider them all repugs. I think we have to find common ground with more Americans if we are to make real headway against the evil people in power now. (Note to flamers: I did not say: move right, or reject our principles, etc., I said find common ground.)

You are carrying a heavy load, and are obviously a real survivor, with much courage. Of course you are tired, emotionally and physically. And I applaud you for giving up smoking! My brother-in-law (another republican) was awful for 4 months, but he did succeed, and you will do.

Meanwhile, keep reading, keep posting, and find the friends & support here that you need.

:grouphug:

[mordarlar]

54. I am a coaster fan... but this is insane : P

thank you for your response. I have seriously been alternating between crying and screaming all day. I assume (I HOPE) I will feel more myself in a few days.

[salin]

50. glad that you are here, even if briefly,

and I restate my earlier advice... find the way to use this forum and the great information to be found here, in a way that works for you.

Me - I am a policy wonk and news hound - have had incredible discussions on energy policy though I started that interest as a neophyte and few had more info (at the starting point) than I. Had to work hard, get a number of threads based on news going, until there was a core that followed, gave input and eventually took actions based on that info that was built, collectively over a year or so. That is how it works for me, personaly.

Based on what you have written - I would guess that the LBN forum (news stories as they break) and the editorials (more indepth pieces) might be useful and inciteful - esp when duers link current stories to other stories. Collected (reference the sources linked, rather than the du links) - this info could be useful in further expanding your repetoire of info to pass on in your many conversations with fence sitters who are seeking more information. In a sense use us as an information clearinghouse.

It sounds like you have a great style for the front line "fighting" - that is discussions that open minds and encourage folks to thirst for more information. This is very hard to do - have had some moderate success at it myself... but it isn't my forte. Very important thing that you are doing. Spend your time doing it - it sounds as though it is rewarding (knowing that you are getting through) rather than here... but dip in here and there where we might be able to help.

And when you can, share some of your successes (as you have here) I think it helps spur others on, especially those who feel beat down and hopeless.

Whatever you decide cheers to you. And congrats on the 72+ hours... quit once for five years and am gearing up for the difficult cold turkey experience again. Tough thing, that.

[mordarlar]

56. Thank you salin for the reply...

I had stopped for a few years too. Started again when the ex. left. Last time though i was suffering morning sickness. Did not bat an eye at the withdrawl. This is really....YUCK. Not sure if i am getting ill too but actually had a temp today. UGH

[salin]

79. this too, shall pass

*easy for me to give such advice from "experience" while I am dreading regoing through the whole thing again.*

If you are still with us - please give me the same encouraging cliches when I finally face the burden and stress of going through the same quitting routine - and I wish you the success that I hope to once again realize.

[mordarlar]

80. LoL sure thing... I will copy paste all this to notepad...

I can even save the rant for ya if ya want. :S

[Melissa G]

59. Congrats for kicking smoking!

if only for 72 hours so far....
My girls are 9 and 11. It keeps me fighting for their future. My husband thinks I'm obsessed with the election fraWd. He is right. I floated about this site for a year or two before I felt compelled to post. I am now at this forum every night since a few days after the THEFT. It gives me hope.
Know there are lots of us just floating about who are not lost in the negativity that sometimes rises on this site.
As a Taoist master friend of mine replied when he was asked how he could live in the perceived pollution of NYC. "I only breathe the good air."
Plenty of good air around! Welcome to DU! :toast:

[mordarlar]

69. Excellent, only the good air...

:toast: Back at ya : )

[Laurab]

76. Welcome

I'm new too. I, like a lot of others, found this place after the horror (to me) of November 3rd. I never really thought it was cliquey (sp?), I just thought there were people who had been around a lot longer than I had. Of COURSE there are things you can contribute. If nothing else, just support for others here, and the knowledge that we're all fighting the same fight. There IS strength in numbers. Also, there are many email, snail mail, telephone campaigns I've learned about on here.

Had I not found DU I would never have written a senator about contesting the election. Now I've lost track of who I've written to, donated to, petition signed for. For me it's the beginning of some kind of activity toward making a difference. I've also learned a lot - I've been directed to websites I would never have seen, read articles I would never have read, found post-ers who actually know things. I learned a long time ago to take what I can use and leave the rest behind. I do a little of that here, too. I don't like a lot of negativity, I prefer optimism, and I think the optimism here far outweighs the negativity.

From what I've seen, DU's membership is growing daily. To me that means a LOT of people are waking up. The larger we grow, the stronger our voice will be. For that reason alone you should stick around.

I really do think it's the lack of nicotine - I quit quitting smoking - was never very good at it, but you've gotten through the toughest part, so don't give up now - on either thing!

Just my opinion, but I truly believe every voice makes a difference, and you should stick around to help.

[mordarlar]

78. thank you :)

[Unforgiven]

81. Your Quote and My 2 Cents

Something in this last post really jumped off of the screen and slapped me in the face, hard, and it rings so true, so pure.

It's not necessarily about quitting smoking, or anything else for that matter. At least for me.

It's this:
"If a battle is coming I want to know who I will fight beside NOW."

You are not alone in that psychological quest.

And if I am lucky, I will find myself fighting along side you.

May you feel the same about myself and everyone here, irregardless of petty differences.

[mordarlar]

84. Here's to not fighting the battle alone....

:toast: : )

[Unforgiven]

85. Now

where can we get that ice cold draft? ;-)

[mordarlar]

89. LOL, Washington DC?

[Unforgiven]

91. If I ever make it there

count on it!!!!

Conversely if you ever find it necessary to visit Jebworld (Formerly Florida) It's a given!

My Treat of course!




Disclaimer:

This is not a pickup line, I just like draft in a frozen mug! Yes! ;-)

[mordarlar]

94. My name is Shannon... Of course i like a mug too : )

[Unforgiven]

100. Or

two!



Regards
Chris

[mordarlar]

103. lol yes or even... well depends on who's driving ; )

[Unforgiven]

106. Know What?

you're not going anywhere. You're staying right here where you, I and the rest of us belong. ;)

And besides.

No one else will have us.

[mordarlar]

111. >>>>

:grouphug: ok : )

[Lostnote03]

47. Very NIce!!!....Thanks Peace n/t

[Darknyte7]

114. Wow...

Man! Seriously... That was beautiful.

My favorite part?

There can be no "moderate" position on our right to vote. It's all or nothing. And if that seems radical to you, and if I seem intolerant about it, you are right. I am radical and intolerant on this matter.

Once we restore our right to vote, then I am totally open to discussions of other issues, and to convincing others of my views, or listening to theirs.

Thank you...

[Stephanie]

44. Maybe you should give it a little longer than 2 days...

or, maybe not.

[Pacifist Patriot]

52. Count me among the confused.

[BigBearJohn]

53. OH, just chill out for a week -- you're suffering from NICOTINE

withdrawal. Been there done that. All your emotions rise to
the surface when you quit. Don't use any of this as an excuse
to go back to smoking. You can do it. Everybody is dramatic
when they quit smoking. Focus on that. At least you will
get healthier.

[jdog]

70. Jeez, no kidding!

Why didn't you just tell us that in the first place. LOL!

[mordarlar]

71. lol :::sorry::: I cannot wait till this is over

[mordarlar]

72. Honestly is this going to last for a week?!?!?!

[jdog]

82. Quitting smoking?

My experience, if I get what you are going through at all, was longer than a week unfortunately. I'd say, for me, more like three. And of course, that was after trying to quit for years!

It's one of the hardest things I've had to do from my own will power. It's also, without a doubt, one of the best things I've ever done. Hang in there. You can do it.

[mordarlar]

88. hmm, i figured about 3 days or so for my head to stop pounding...

I can be a stubborn B*tch but this really is very tough. I wanted to try a patch but the old ticker is goofy. Eh well mostly done...With the looks these kids are giving me i cannot go back now : )

[corbett]

55. Real War Among These Pages

I, for one, feel that most (real) bloggers on this site maintain as much objectivity as possible given the circumstances. However, I will admit to a certain temporary narrow mindedness to be found here now and again.

Without intending any disrespect to our brave men and women in uniform sacrificing themselves around the world for Rummy's Folly, I must say that the cause of the aforementioned momentary mental myopia is the fact that we are fighting for the future of the free world at the moment.

The 2004 presidential election was rigged and we have to do everything we can in order to convince righties of the facts and compel them to obey the Constitution, thus installing KERRY as the next President.

[Straight Shooter]

73. mordarlar, remember the Rule of Ten

Ten days to adjust to heartache, ten days to begin a new habit or overcome an old, the first ten days is always the hardest. There are many situations in life to which you can apply the Rule of Ten.

These are words of wisdom given to me from a friend long gone, and it's the greatest gift he gave to me.

Give yourself ten days to adjust to life without cigarettes, and you'll feel better about DU, too. I don't know about an "Exclusive Club," but I find that comment interesting.

FWIW, I'm in the Peace Patriot fan club and highly recommend his (her?) advice to anyone in any situation.

Now, to counterpoint your thumbs down: :thumbsup:

Hang in there ;)

[mordarlar]

74. I have never heard of that... could have used it before : D

Thank you

[Straight Shooter]

83. Well, there was ONE heartache which took a hundred days to adjust to.

:D

I'll be wishing you well about quitting the cigs. I've done it, too, and it wasn't easy, but it was definitely worth it. It was so many years ago that I've lost count.

Thanks for sharing your life story, too. That shows courage.

[mordarlar]

86. ahhh, it was the cliff notes.

;-)

[Straight Shooter]

92. I can only imagine.

Oh, my.

[mordarlar]

95. lol we all have a version ; )

[shiina]

75. I think I understand...

I freaked out when an answer to my first thread seemed to impugne that I was a freeper. I was just really puzzled how they could have taken my post that way. Then I realized that they were responding to someone how had responded to my post, not to me. <sigh>

I, personally, come here for the SANITY. I'm in a red state right now, and I feel like I live in an different universe than they do sometimes. I mean, a lot of people here think things are going great in Iraq right now.

I don't like it when my posts get ignored, but I don't think it's because of any clique. It's usually get because this board is piping hot right now, and, unless you can speed-read, people can't read and respond to everything.

It's the nature of message boards, I think, that people usually judge what you wrote by what you wrote. They can't see you or hear you, they don't know your life's story, all they have to go on is what you write. After a while you start recognizing some names, but you still only have their posts to go by.

People can be harsh here. I don't really care for that myself, either. But passion runs high, and that's important. I wouldn't want to quell that. Too many people don't care enough about politics and what's going on right now.

[mordarlar]

77. Thank you for the response...

I agree with you. very good post. ;)

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

87. Don't leave mordarlar. You sound stressed out and I'm sure not having

had a ciggie in a few days certainly adds to the edginess. Maybe get some sleep and you'll feel better in the morning.

I had to turn off the news tonight; all the images and videotapes from the tsunami have gotten me so depressed (I already suffer depression and take meds for it), I just had to get away from the TV set.

Don't leave. You're welcome here. :)

[mordarlar]

90. : ) thank you

The news is very daunting. So many inconceivables happening. Feels very surreal in the world lately. I am going to try and sleep soon. Sleeping has been tough lately. Racing brain. But it sure does help with cravings lol. :P

[HeyManThatsCool]

93. mordarlar

A very crisp, concise post.
You nailed it.

When DO we get a DU key? When is it acceptable to post here?

The thing that makes it sooooo damn dumb is...

Unless you have 1000+ posts you wont be accepted

But to get to 1000+ posts...... you have to post.

But until you hit 1000 all of your posts are treated as being "disinformation" and "rethug propaganda"

[mordarlar]

99. : /

[s-cubed]

102. I haven't found that to be the case at all.

Some of my posts were ignored, some praised, but I never felt the 1000+ post to be a determining factor. People are suspicious of those with only a few posts, especially when they seem to be trying to stir up things. Also, this is a forum that has a healthy dose of skepticism: people try to check the facts, and don't just take someone's word for it. That's why DUers have helped in the fraud investigation.
So a .:toast: to all newbies, and to all oldies!

[Last Lemming]

105. This is my first

participation in any major discussion group of any kind (but then I have recently moved to South Carolina and am the only Marxist in the state) I know nothing about politics but I've done a lot of overseas humanitarian aid work and I can recognize the seventeen early warning signs of a country on the road to perdition Since joining I've been called out once --my fault--though the palpible terror on the part of the poster who called me out has left a lasting memory--Otherwise people have been most welcoming--what has trippred me up were the Posters with Problems--The ones that posted at least 25 hours a day--and getting sucked into these weird stories--what was the final thoughts on the CyberNet connection? What about Jeff Fisher? Crackpot or hero? Military personel sitting on boards of companies that deal with elections? I still am confused

But thanks so much for the companionship, tolerance, repartee.

[IndyOp]

104. One of the my first 10 posts got me a 'cold response' --

The poster was quoting data that showed how low Dem voter confidence was nationwide and in FLA immediately after the election. I wrote "Great Poll!' and the reply was a sort-of-standoffish "I don't know why you think that poll is great..." I explained that I thought it was great because maybe we had a hope of people realizing that election fraud had happened. I never heard back from the poster. I haven't seen their posts in the 2004 Election forum since. I eventually figured that maybe they just weren't ready to face the fraud. But, initially, I thought it was me.

There are sooooo many people who hang out here that it is hard to get to know people, but once you do, and once they get to know you -- which should be just about right now, since you posted this thread -- I bet you will feel lots better.

Also -- congratulations on your brave efforts to quit smoking. My parents both died before the age of 70 of smoking related diseases. Both had died before I turned 30. I tend to think of them around Holidays. Sometimes I am so angry that I want to pull them up out of their graves just to yell at them for what they did to themselves. It isn't a smoker's fault that they started smoking (no one expects to get addicted) and it is incredibly tough to stop. Hang in there!

:thumbsup:

[mordarlar]

107. Thank you... I am trying. Going on day 4 in a few hrs : )

[tamtam]

108. Can I tell you a story?

I will never forget my first post here. It was something about getting Nader on the ballot in California. I made the comment that I watched quite a few military personnel sign the petition, I had maybe 3 post to my name at the time. It wasn't even 20 min after I made that comment that some smart-ass-wanting-to-look-big-poster made a snide comment. If I remember right they said something like "how do you know they were military" something to the effect that I was making a gross characterization because I said I could tell they were military. To make a long story short the snide poster didn't take in to account that I could tell they were military because they all were wearing uniforms. I didn't think I needed to explain how I could tell they were military. I could tell by the way they walk, the swing of the arms, the haircut, the fact the Nader people were standing outside of Camp Pendelton, but what really tipped me off was the uniforms (shhh don't tell anyone) I didn't mention they were wearing uniforms. I thought most people would understand that when I said "you could positively tell they were military". I didn't think I needed to explain that. This poster was so happy to see a low poster and show off they didn't even stop to think. It didn't stop there, they tried to corner me once again saying " so now you are saying that all the people in the military are conservative". Most people know that the military tends to lean to the right. Since I was in the military and my husband has been in for ten years I think I know such things.

Yes, there are some assholes on this board. I actually think there are some people on this board who hunt freepers and end up chasing away legitimate lefties . I know this has been huge problem in the past. I remember Earl posting a message about calling "newbies out". I personally think the whole practice of calling a newbie out is immature and ignorant.If you need to be the center of attention that bad I feel for you, you don't need DU but a good doctor would do the trick. If someone calls you a freeper just ignore them, they really are not worth your time. If someone disagrees with you then you have to accept that and either debate your issue or move on. I hope you don't leave. :hug:

[mordarlar]

112. >>>but what really tipped me off was the uniforms....

(shhh don't tell anyone) I didn't mention they were wearing uniforms.<<< ROFL. Thank you for the chuckle. :7

[truthpusher]

109. I agree that there is sometimes an air of elitism on this board, but...

...a lot of the people that are in the 'clique' have been working hard on this project and frankly I haven't done much more than pay lip service...so I don't let my feelings get hurt too bad when they treat me like I don't know shit.

[buddysmellgood]

110. PAHLEASE PEOPLE! THIS THREAD IS FOR ME AND MORDARLAR ONLY!

Get a clue. Perhaps if you do, we'll invite you to ask polite questions and gush.

[mordarlar]

113. Clever.....

Your blow struck true. This was not my intention though. So insult at will.

[buddysmellgood]

119. Just poking fun. You know what Groucho said. "I certainly wouldn't want to

join any organization that would be willing to have me as a member."

[mordarlar]

120. LOL Groucho was the best of men ; )

[Chimpanzee]

115. Welcome to DU, mordarlar!

I've been here just a short time, but I have found a wealth of information that has been consolidated on this site. I don't come here to make friends, although I very much appreciate the friendly people here and the camaraderie of hanging with people that think like I do. I've been yelled at and discounted and applauded here. I have a thick skin from debating hardcore neo-cons for several years until I realize it was futile and I found this place which validates my feelings. Let me say that we need people like you on this site. All good people, no matter their idiosyncrasies, help make this place better for all of us. We have 60,000 registered and they are all different and I think that's great. Just don't expect people to waste time talking to republicans. Our method is to expose the criminality of the Bush administration. Good republicans will make their own informed decisions based on these exposures, and I am confident they will make the right choice without our help.

[mordarlar]

116. Thank you...

I am one that that believes it is not simply about an election. It is about a crime. And like any other crime, you do not prove it and then let the criminal continue. I am not suggesting bending on this. I do think we need to do EVERYTHING in out power to bring out the news. As i am sure most here do. :)

[mordarlar]

117. Empathy Training for Conservatives

http://www.chuckherrin.com/ConservativeEmpathy.htm

There is humor to this... Please read it before you conclude anything:)

>>>>Empathy Training for Compassionate Conservatives: Why the Democrats Are Still Whining About the Election (and Why Maybe We Should Be, Too)

Chuck Herrin, CISSP, CISA, MCSE, CEH

American, Voter, Republican – In That Order



Author's note: **As of right now, 11-23-2004, there is no conclusive evidence that massive voter fraud took place, but there is overwhelming evidence that the weaknesses in our voting system could have allowed it. I hope it didn't happen, but the simple fact is that whether it did or not, our election systems, particularly those using DREs, appear to have been designed specifically to allow fraud, rather than prevent it. Who put these systems in place, and what is the real current state of e-voting? Read on, gentle surfer, and I'll do my best to tell you.**

I was talking to a dear friend of mine yesterday, and he asked me what I had been up to. "This voting machine security thing" I told him. "It looks really bad. I can't believe how insecure these systems are and how easy they would be to Hack."

He chuckled and said to me, very sincerely, "Well, just as long as they go Republican, right? Heh, heh."

There was an awkward moment of silence as I processed that. Now, this is no raving Neo-Conservative that I'm talking to here. I love him, but he probably couldn't pick Karl Rove out of an Evil Genius Lineup with Dr. Evil, Max Scorpio, and that Steve guy from the Linux cartoon (www.ubergeek.tv/switchlinux). I'm visualizing it now - "Suspect number 3, please turn to the right and say 'Mwuahh-haa-haa.....'"

Actually, this is a guy I've known for almost 15 years, a college buddy and fraternity brother who I have leaned against on many drunken and interesting nights, and is one of the very few people in the world I trust explicitly. I took a few seconds to let what he said sink in, and then I warily replied, "Actually, that's kind of the problem. So far, all the vote fraud analysis that's been done indicates that it benefited us 100% of the time."

He replied, "Yeah? Huh. Go figure. Hey, can you make it to the Tampa Bay / Panthers game next weekend? Kevin's coming up from Florida, and we're tailgating!"

I mumbled something about trying to be there and hung up, half-stunned and half-depressed. Now keep in mind, this really is a stand-up guy, who I know was raised in the church and who has been known to speak (at great length) on Moral and Religious topics to whoever would listen, whenever the urge struck him. Coors Light was often involved in bringing about these "sermons" from high atop Mount Barstool, but he still made some good points, which is why his offhand response surprised me so much.

I guess in hindsight, I really shouldn't be that surprised. I have been involved in analysis of our nationwide voting systems for only a relatively short while now, but I have noticed a strong, consistent partisanship entering the discussions wherever the topic is raised. Now, I have always been a Republican and consider myself a reasonably bright person, but what I can't understand is the differences in the answer to what I think is a very simple question:

"If voter fraud is committed on behalf of your party, does the fact that your party benefited from it make it OK?"

Now, to me, the ends clearly don't justify the means. But as I talk to other Republicans, I am finding that there is a clear and strong resistance to looking into the issue of whether or not our voting system has any integrity. For the most part, we're either simply not convinced that there is a problem or we simply choose to ignore it since the "problem" seems to work to our benefit. I'm not sure how many of them have ever played much chess, but it's clear that a whole lot of people aren't even looking 1, much less 2 moves ahead. What happens when the results of a corrupt voting system DON'T go your way? What's going to happen when your side DOESN'T win? Will you be able to put the fact that our system is so easily manipulated behind you and just "get over it"?

As an American Voter, charged with the solemn duty of electing the most powerful leaders in history, SHOULD you be able to?<<<

[mordarlar]

118. Empathy Training for Liberals

http://www.chuckherrin.com/LiberalEmpathy.htm

Like the previous, there is humor to this. But ultimately a good point.

>>> Empathy Training for Liberals: A Primer on the Conservative Mind, From the Inside of One.

Chuck Herrin, CISSP, CISA, MCSE, CEH

American, Voter, Republican – In That Order

Author's note: **As of right now, 11-23-2004, there is no conclusive evidence that massive voter fraud took place, but there is overwhelming evidence that the weaknesses in our voting system could have allowed it. I hope it didn't happen, but the simple fact is that whether it did or not, our election systems, particularly those using DREs, appear to have been designed specifically to allow fraud, rather than prevent it. Who put these systems in place, and what is the real current state of e-voting? Read on, gentle surfer, and I'll do my best to tell you.**<<<

>>>“Why won’t the Conservatives admit that the 2004 Presidential election was stolen?”

I’ll tell you why. There's no hard evidence that has been widely published that proves that it was. Most of them are not aware that a problem exists with our voting system, and for those that are, to admit that the Election was Stolen is to admit some very difficult things, which most Conservatives are not prepared to do. Here are my top seven reasons, in the order in which I thought of them. In order to admit that the election was stolen, we would have to admit:

7) That if a problem exists, and I benefited from it, that I might be part of the problem. Whether any particular Republican helped to steal the election or not, if we admit that fraud was committed, there is no question that the people that WE voted into power did it. Therefore, at some level, we are part of the problem. The VAST majority of Americans, both Republican and Democrat, are decent and honest people, and are loath to consider themselves a part of ANY problem, much less massive Election Fraud. If you only voted once and did so honestly, are you going to admit to helping to steal the election? No! Since the VAST majority of Republicans had nothing to do with it, they understandably don’t want to put themselves in that camp.

Now, I would counter that with saying that unless you actually helped commit the fraud or were aware of it and did nothing to stop it, then you had no way of knowing that it was taking place. You are ONLY part of the problem if you learn about it and then ignore or deny that it happened. Since most Republicans remain blissfully unaware of what may have actually happened, they are not going to be inclined to feel guilty for crimes that they had no hand in committing.

6) That in a legitimate election, we would have lost the Presidency. Remember how important it was just a couple of weeks ago that your side won? Put yourself in their position – if Kerry had won, would you be receptive to listening to “statistical data” and “hypothetical attacks” in the interest of putting Bush back in office? Have you ever seen a player on a Superbowl-winning team ask the reporter to “play the tape from the 3rd quarter again – I don’t think I really had both feet in the endzone. We shouldn’t have won…. here, will you give my Superbowl ring to the other guys?” Of course not. And that’s just a football game – we’re talking about control of the world here. No, it’s a rare Republican that will be receptive to hearing it without some SOLID proof, and so far that hasn’t been that easy to come by. It’s coming, but it’s just not here yet.

When talking to Republicans, don't yell about the things you can't prove yet or won't benefit them directly, like the recount results in Florida and Ohio. Make logical points about things we KNOW, like the horrible state of our voting system. That affects them, and is extremely well documented. We are concerned about our country's future, too, and none of us want our voices taken away either. We just haven't been made aware of the extent of the problems yet, since things look like they are really going our way.

5) That a majority of Americans don’t support our goals. Nobody likes being in the minority. Nobody likes being criticized. Nobody likes losing power to people that they don’t agree with. It’s tough to accept that no matter how strong your convictions are, sometimes you have to put your personal goals aside and do what the majority wants. It’s much easier to believe that you ARE the majority, and everyone who doesn’t agree is less intelligent than you - a whiner, to be mocked and marginalized. Both sides do that, and we all know it.

4) That we are making the world a worse place, rather than a better one. It is human nature to demonize your enemies in order to help you see things in terms of black and white, rather than all those complicated shades of gray. Also, it is MUCH more difficult to rationalize that you are killing innocent people under false pretenses than it is to convince yourself that you’re doing good deeds, and protecting your children from terrorists. We are already emotionally invested in the war in Iraq, and admitting that the war was a mistake means admitting that:

a) our President lied to us, which shakes our faith and trust in the office of the Presidency,

b) we were dumb enough to believe it, (I was. I supported the war in Iraq, because I trusted that our leaders would do the right thing. Specifically, I trusted Colin Powell. I bought it, and I was deceived by my trusted leaders, and it hurts.), and

c) as a result of OUR gullibility and mistakes, innocent men, women, and children who NEVER posed ANY danger to us are suffering and dying.

Facing up to all that is really tough. That’s a heavy burden that almost nobody wants to take on. It’s much easier to convince yourself that the lies you’re being fed are true than it is to own up to mistakes of that magnitude and voluntarily see that the blood on our hands didn’t all come from fighting terrorists, but that a lot of it came from a misguided and shameful quest for money and power.

We have to convince ourselves that we’re good people, and we’re doing the right thing. The human mind adapts readily to this, which is why we always see ourselves as the good guy, despite what the rest of the world thinks. Always remember that the human brain is wired so that when you’re standing on another man’s neck, YOU are never the Monster. He is, and he deserves what he gets. That's not partisan, that's human nature.

As far as Iraq goes, since nobody wants to support a misguided and shameful quest, it’s lucky for us that we don’t have to. Our “Fair and Balanced” media is doing a great job of convincing us that we’re right. Did you know that around 60% of Fox News viewers still think there was a link between Al Quaeda and Iraq, vs. 11% of NPR listeners? Look, these lies are comfortable, and make us feel better about ourselves. That’s why so many of us choose to deceive ourselves and believe them. Remember Joe Pantoliano’s character in “The Matrix”? I’ll bet 9 out of 10 Fox News viewers would choose to get plugged back in, too. It's a lot easier in a make-believe world - just look at Disney's ticket sales.

3) That we are being lied to, and are gullible enough to believe it. Since I’m talking about Fox News; as a Democrat, you may not realize that many, many Americans think Fox News is GREAT! I admit - I was a big fan when it first hit the airwaves. There it is, a “news” organization whose message, 100% of the time, is YOU’RE RIGHT. We all seek that out. All of us. That’s why Democrats listen to Janeane Garofalo and Randi Rhodes. That’s why you went to see Fahrenheit 9/11 and sent copies of the DVD to your Republican family members. Everyone loves being told they’re right and having their opinions vindicated. Why do you think that people on extreme ends of the spectrum always complain about the “Liberal Media” or the “Conservative Media”? It’s because they think they’re correct, and the media is more “Liberal” or “Conservative” than THEY are. That’s how we judge – based on our own political compass. That’s all we have, and that’s all we know how to use.

That being the case, if a smart “news” organization moves the media to the right so it’s aligned with your political compass, you feel really good because “I’m right, and the liberal media has finally come around!”. And as you watch them reinforce the same views, presenting press releases taken straight from the Republican leadership as "journalism", over and over, you adopt those views as your own and “discover” that now there’s a mainstream news organization, full of smart people, smiling at you and telling you that you’re really smart since you got it right, too. It feels great when you’re bombarded with the message that you’re right, everyone else is wrong, Jesus loves us, our taxes are lower, and we’re spreading freedom and democracy throughout the world. Watch Fox News, if you can stand it, for a little while. They tell us we’re the good guys, and it must be true, because they’re “fair and balanced”.

I have to admit, it’s comfortable there. It’s as comfortable as pre-screened campaign audiences and a Cabinet full of Yes-Men, but it’s wrong.<<<

[bunny planet]

122. God I wish I had read this before trying to convert my Republican

sister-in-law in Nashville. It was not a pretty conversation.

[mordarlar]

123. yeah it is a good article huh? I really appreciated it and the author

[henslee]

121. This place is a clearinghouse of news/links that you'd be hard pressed to

find anywhere else. Anything else this place is -- it is and that is why it is. And as I write this its becoming something else. It's basically controlled chaos with a few rules and its real. And some moments are more dignified than others.

[Peggy Day]

124. Amen brother! n/t

[AzDar]

127. Keep posting if you want, don't if ya don't! Most people here are

quite cool; just like any other societal microcosm, you're gonna have some assholes. I think the bottom line is that we're in this Bush-inspired nightmare together and that's what's important...Newbie or 1000 + poster...who cares?

[mordarlar]

133. : D

[floridadem30]

129. I have never spoken to you before, but I understand your views and as long

as you are still out there fighting to help restore our democracy and help uncover the truth you are welcome in any forum I'm in.

[mordarlar]

132. : D thank you.

[roenyc]

130. I am new here too but

not new to message boards. I was a long time member of bill mahers board and that was such a fun zoo of a place - freepers running wild. it would get to the point that you couldn't have a decent conversation without them coming in to say something ridiculous. no facts just garbage.

and when that didn't work to get our attention. post a dirty pic. no moderation what so ever!

so i went looking for like minded people. Randi Rhodes board? no, talk about a click. and drama - my goodness the drama!

I wasn't sure i was up to the underground. could i make it here? would i be welcomed? well i am going to try. you guys swiftly remove trolls and freepers (who needs it?) an intelligent conversation is one thing but senseless banter of Muslims are the devil blah blah blah is another.

and we actually get to trow ideas around and talk about the democratic party and its future. its a wonderful place for a Democrat. i am glad i joined. as soon as i am able i will get my star.

now i am proud to be a democrat and perhaps because i live around a bunch of Republicans i long to type with some Dem's.

dont know what to tell you mordarlar, Randi's board has some republicans you can talk to. but its really nice here. it will be up to you.

why do so many people try to stop smoking new years eve? too much pressure. do it next month. when no one is looking. as i light a cig.

[mordarlar]

131. Honestly it was a fluke. Did not even occur to me it was near new years..

that is how bad this rabbit hole i am in is... lol Honestly i ran out. Car would not start, cold of something. Then when it did start i figured what the f*ck... Might as well give it a go. Have tried a billion times. No luck. Here i am 4 days. Life is strange ; )

[roenyc]

134. been there a bunch of times

good luck. you are past the hardest time. look go sleep. for like 6 months. just kidding.

Drink lots of water. to drain the nicotine from your system. you might want to go to the heath food store and by one of those toxic removing teas. to just rid your system of it faster. it will be over soon. Try not to do things you do when smoking. like work on the computer at home! maybe go for a brisk walk, exercise or cook or make cookies or paint. use your hands - keep them busy.

i am just not ready yet. cause i am being pretty dumb about it. i need to stop too.

good luck!