Kerry's Capitulation...Nothing Like What I've Seen Him do for 20 years

[BayStateBoy]

Kerry didn't simply concede the election, it is clear that his entire campaign organization is already dissolved.

I realize that Kerry evidently conceded OH and the election due to insufficient ballots available for recount, i.e. bbv issues, and discouraging numbers in key precincts.

But the entire Kerry Campaign collapse is in my opinion contrary to everything I have ever known or seen about him in the past 20 years, never mind everything we have witnessed during this campaign.

I don't know if he was threatened, as some claim, but something is very wrong here and there is clearly more to the story than meets the eye.

Anyone have any guesses as to what would make such a fighter fold so fast and completely?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ramblin_dave]

6. What exactly is incorrect?

What part of the original post do you see as the "premise" which is incorrect?

[LibDemAlways]

25. I'm with ramblin dave

What exactly about the premise is incorrect? I'm confident you are in a position to know what's going on.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. That the campaign organization is already dissolved

that is a ridiculous assumption. You don't abandon in 2 days what was built up over 2 years, and has continued value for quite some time after the election.

[BayStateBoy]

52. Well If They Still Exist, They Can't Be Contacted

And after the concession speech, I heard some interviews with the top campaign brass and they were talking about how they were going home and back to old jobs.

Doesn't sound like they're intact to me.

[George_S]

37. A concession has no legally binding effect.

3. A concession has no legally binding effect. Presumably a concession by Gore would be accompanied by a request that his allies cease litigation efforts on his behalf and everything gets dismissed as moot. Still, until the electoral college votes, Congress opens and accepts, and the hand goes on the bible, anything can theoretically happen. However, the scenario we experienced with the retracted concession, like most everything else of the past month, is very, very unusual and was attributable to the erroneous media reports that we all were relying on. So if there is another concession, it will be for keeps.

[hlthe2b]

2. At least he has the Senate to go back to--- what about the millions of us

without jobs? I'm not trying to blame Kerry. I believe him to be honorable. But, I'm just so heartsick and demoralized, I don't know what to think.....:cry:

[TexasSissy]

38. I'm sure he'll hate going back to the Senate after this loss.

Repubs will give him a rough time. Dems might be disappointed he didn't do everything perfectly. He feels he has let people down (which I don't believe).

[hlthe2b]

46. He went back today....eom

[teh636]

3. Maybe...

The realization that he couldn't win? 100,000 or so votes is not exactly a small difference. Whats there left to do?

[lizzieforkerry]

15. It is when there are 250000 uncounted vote you Freeper!

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. I still say they are lying low and working on proving fraud

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[XanaDUer]

13. I'm with you

the guy who brought down the Iran Contra crew...well, think about it.

[shelley806]

14. God, I hope you're right on this one! ........ n/t

[XanaDUer]

16. I am sure he was threatened by the Oliver North thugs

that did not stop him.

[shelley806]

24. A very good point...n/t

[XanaDUer]

29. Oh , yeah.

Oliver North and his merry band of madmen are a whole lot smarter than the BushCos. And more dangerous.

My dream: Kerry unloads all sorts of dirt on the Chimp at the most critical moment in Chimp's 2nd term. Right around the attack probaly coming on our soil again.

[shelley806]

39. Wish he'd do it prior to the inauguration.......n/t

[BayStateBoy]

53. The John Kerry I Know Wouldn't Back Down from a Threat

[TexasSissy]

40. I hadn't heard this. But I doubt it. I seriously doubt it. The Dems

suffered some pretty big losses across the board. They're probably as numb (and tired) as we are.

[bullimiami]

66. people. give him a chance.

maybe he didnt know. maybe he thought it was fishy but there was no proof and nothing to be done.

wait a little bit and see what happens.

[BayStateBoy]

23. I Would Support That "Hope" but

it is probably more analogous to the Titanic victims holding on to the stern of the ship after she broke apart. Many told themselves that it would become its own lifeboat and continue to float indefinitely...

[LSparkle]

61. I'm with you ...

If he had gone to court over the provisional ballots, it might have delayed counting everything -- absentees, servicepeople -- but this way the counting goes on and hopefully before the Electoral College votes, it'll be revealed that his concession was premature.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. This is getting stranger and stranger

But then again, the whole world has gotten stranger and stranger.

Humor and irony are no longer enough to explain it or excuse it. Something has gone seriously wrong with the universe in general.

--bkl

[Generator]

7. Well that wasn't the Kerry I voted for

So I'm an idiot. I will concede that. I will not concede what my eyes told me. The majority of people voting wanted Bush gone.



PERIOD.

[BayStateBoy]

8. Lifelong History of Being a Fighter...Doesn't Add up to me

[TexasSissy]

41. But...if the # of votes in Ohio wouldn't make a difference....which is

what he said...what would be the point? The votes ARE still being counted, but he said it wouldn't make a difference.

I think what it was was that the Dem. counties had come in, so there was no hope for the ratio of Dem. to Repub votes to improve, and he'd have to get most of the uncounted votes. Is that right?

[BayStateBoy]

44. There is a huge amount of provisional ballots

most of which were minorities who had been challenged. Most should go to Kerry.

I think there is gold to be found if one were to dig. But you can't dig if you've surrendered.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

10. You're right

I agree.

But, don't knock Kerry. Not yet.

There's something else going on, I'm positive.

Just keep in mind that a concession has NO legal weight, none at all. And George W. Bush isn't legally elected after the members of the electoral college meet and vote on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December - the 13th - and the vote count is announced in Congress on January 6, 2005.

Until December 13, at least, anything can happen.

Keep the faith. How much more badly can we be hurt?

[TexasSissy]

43. He was on the verge of tears. There was nothing up his sleeve.

He was in despair like someone who knew he had lost.

He said he'd always tell us the truth. I believe him. He sincerely believes he lost.

[BQueen]

47. Maybe he was in tears because he knew how it would appear

How frustrating and humiliating would it be to have to look like you were caving in when you *are* such a fighter, and when you know many of your supporters will see it as a betrayal and may never forgive you?

Tears don't always indicate sadness -- I have shed them out of simple frustration and extreme anger (like, ready to vault a table and throttle the bastard anger).

Granted, I missed the speech, as I was out of the news loop all day yesterday, but I've been there, and having to do something that makes you look like you're betraying every value you hold dear would qualify as a tear-inducing situation...

[TexasSissy]

57. His voice cracked when he said, "I wish I could've brought it in for you"

speaking to his supporters.

He did not betray anyone.

[intheflow]

9. So he could wield power as new Senate Minority leader?

But I agree with your observation. I'm in Denver now, but spent the first 37 years of life in MA. Folding so completely is not the Kerry I knew, either.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

11. Remember this

Kerry and Edwards are two smart lawyers. (I'm a smart lawyer, too.)

Remember that Gore's concession in Florida was premature, and when it looked like he had won Florida, he called Bush and withdrew it. Remember?

Kerry's a guy who doesn't fold, I agree. And I cannot believe his strategists didn't have a plan in place for something like this. I can't believe, with all the good legal help they have, that there isn't a cadre of people in Ohio right now, working to get all the votes counted. Accurately.

I suspect they're in Florida, too. And in Iowa and New Mexico.

Please, please, we believed in Kerry for so long, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

Wouldn't a November Surprise be nice?

[shelley806]

20. Thank you thank you; yours have been some of the most positive posts

I've read today.

[intheflow]

50. Yes, womandingo

ROCKS!! :headbang: :yourock:

[BQueen]

34. My theory and call to action

Posted the thread below last night and even got my first nomination for the Homepage (thanks Vidali!) -- of course I rarely initiate threads anyway cuz they have this habit of sinking -- sort of like this one has.

I agree that the info for public consumption right now does not square with my understanding of Kerry and Edwards' tenacity and legal acumen. Something IS up -- and I would read the dismantling of the campaign machinery as a device to deflect any claims that the campaign is involved in any subsequent activity, so that w can't say Kerry's backtracking or being sleazy somehow.

You are a smart lawyer -- I'm a smart recovering-lawyer with more than a decade of experience dealing with ethically challenged Repugs. I've studied their habits and learned how to manipulate them. Kerry has too, I can tell. Please read my thoughts on this and let me know what you think.

Thanks,
BQ B-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2590721#2592112

[OldLeftieLawyer]

70. Smart lawyer to smart lawyer.......

...... and all the smart Americans in between - I read your post and here's what I think (and how I'd set it up if I were Kerry's legal counsel for this one):

Stealth. I would make the stealth bomber look like Paris Hilton, that's how under-the-radar I'd come in. I'd make sure that my people were in Ohio, in place, doing all the undercover work that needs to be done to establish the foundation for a legal challenge, but I'd do it in the most low-key way imaginable - just this side of invisible.

So, all the emails and letters and calls would have to go unanswered or ignored. I would have made my election committee inaccessible except to anyone who was along for the ride for the past two years, because no one else could be trusted, and I would amass all the evidence necessary to take to a judge and have him issue an injunction prohibiting the Ohio electors from casting their votes on December 13th.

From there, the legal challenge to get all the votes counted - and those votes, provisional and absentee and any other challenged ballots - would sure as hell be locked up with someone from my team standing guard 24/7.

That's how I'd do it. That's what I hope to God - a God I don't even believe in, by the way - is happening right now.

I will not give up hope until midnight on December 6, 2004. That's a long, long time for a smart lawyer to get lots of things done.

[BayStateBoy]

42. Yes, I Can't Imagine that they didn't predict this possibility

but I think there has been confirmation that the legal teams have been dismissed from OH and elsewhere.

What do you think of that?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

71. Legal teams dismissed?

Everyone can be rehired. You just change the name on the retainer agreement.

[meganmonkey]

18. Nope - Looks like it's gonna be Harry Reid, D-NV

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&ncid=703&e=5&u=/usatoday/20041104/ts_usatoday/reideyestopsenatepostafterdaschlesloss

[lizzieforkerry]

12. I have just three theories

1: That the OBL tape stated that he would attack the deciding state and Kerry didn't want a big fight over Ohio for fear of turning us into an international Target

2: It became evident that it was the Diebold machines and they realized that there was absolutely nothing that they could do

3: He really believes he will win Ohio when they are all done counting and he felt it was best to have it out of the Supreme Court, and out of the media, and then looking like a true winner instead of fighting it in court and winning and looking like a sore loser.

I also have a theory about the Catholic Church. A large number of Catholic Ohioans voted for Bush and I am obsessed as to why so hear me out because I can't start a thread. I think the Bishops struck a deal with Bush that if they backed him then Bush would include them in a tort reform bill. The USCC is going bankrupt over all of the lawsuits for the molestations and Kerry, being Catholic was in no position to help him since he is Catholic. The CC backed Bush hard in Ohio- I know, I had to stop going to mass. So watch for them to be included in the tort reform bill. This is the only way to explain why the Bishops went against the Pope, who had expressed displeasure with Bush over the war.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

17. 2 is likely

But 3 - which I can imagine Goat Boy trying to squeeze into some tort reform legislation (which will never pass, by the way) - won't ever survive any kind of constitutional challenge, even before this Supreme Court, because of the First Amendment.

If 3 came to pass, though, and the Supreme Court allowed it to stand, I'm leaving this country, because it will no longer be "my country."

[BQueen]

58. Yeah, he'd try it

and they'd be just slick enough to convince the church they could get it to stick (especially with Tony "The Shiv" Scalia as Chief Justice)

Intriguing theory, lizzieforkerry, I'm betting you're right. If an organization is willing to subject its members' children to pedophiles to protect itself....somehow obscuring its true motives and whipping people into a frenzy over abortion is not beyond the pale. We didn't have it bad at the polling place I was at -- but apparently the staunch German-Catholic community south of me has absolutely no problem with screaming obscenities at middle-aged women across a busy street. We did have one screaming about murder, but no obscenities. (The woman I worked with who has lived here a long time was initially very scared -- like worried about guns scared. She said she would no longer be getting sub calls for the local nursing home because the repug director saw her there.)

My sister said she got the most awful communications (personally addressed, no return address) on the partial-birth non-issue. She said she was so horrified she tore it up and threw it away -- I asked her to try to dig it out of the garbage... Also many, many phone calls urging her to get out and vote because the Democrats were stealing the election! She said she had to stop herself from saying "You DO mean 'Republicans,' don't you?"

[Justice]

60. Wow, that is an interesting theory

a chill just ran thru me.

[bullimiami]

68. you can forget the scotus deciding it again for bush

it wouldnt be tolerated. instead of prosecuting him for massive crimes against the country they would reward him with another term? can you say angry citizens?

[LisaL]

19. There are simply not enough provisional ballots for Kerry to win.

[lizzieforkerry]

21. Have trhey counted the absentee ballots? n/t

[BayStateBoy]

22. I'm Told That Wasn't the real issue

Had more to do with electronic ballots and being unable to do recounts

[LisaL]

27. Most of OH has paper ballots.

[BayStateBoy]

28. 7 Ohio Counties have Electronic voting

Ohio is one of only 4 states, all using electronic voting or combinations, where the exit polls and final tallies did not closely correlate. (NC, NH, FL, OH)

[lizzieforkerry]

30. Does anyone know which specific counties in Ohio have BBV?

[BQueen]

51. There's a map at this address

http://electionline.org/interactiveMap_result.jsp?state=OH&stateText=Ohio&topicText=Voting%20System%20Used&topic_string=22:votingsystemtypemain

But I checked it for my county (Auglaize), and it's not accurate. It says punch-card, and we had ES&S machines. It was punch card two yrs ago for the Gov race. I remember reading that it was one of the counties in line to get the no-paper-trail machines even though Blackwell backed off on that -- then thought I had seen that they weren't getting them.

Imagine my surprise when I went to vote absentee so I could volunteer on election day and saw the new machines...Same ones at the polling place I watched the next day.

They also did an interesting merger of polling places -- merging three precincts into two and adding them to the site previously handling six precincts. Made it very difficult to check the lists for GOTV calls -- and one of those two enlarged precincts was a bellweather (K/E HQ did not know of merger until right before election, from what I could tell, but we didn't get a HQ til very late -- wonder how that skewed the projection numbers?)

I can check with people in other counties to see how they voted and try to verify -- know I can verify Van Wert, Logan, Medina, and maybe Champaign, possibly know people in others -- I'll have to think...

[turquoise tool]

67. Provisional ballots evenly distributed between Kerry and Bush counties

The reason Kerry called off the dogs was due to the even distribution of the counties for and against Kerry. He may actually end up with a bigger gap when all the votes are counted. Also heard that he and his team actually realized the perdicament before turning in to bed. Maybe positioning himself for another run, wanted to contrast vs Gore?

[LibDemAlways]

31. We need to know what percentage of the paper

punchcard ballots were spoiled - under or overvotes. According to Greg Palast many heavily minority precincts had old decrepit machines sure to spoil a lot of Kerry votes. Those need to be looked at. By the way, Palast said he called Blackwell's office requesting that information and was hung up on - twice.

[BayStateBoy]

48. They Won't Be Examined Unless Someone Requests a Recount

[mountainvue]

64. Randi Rhodes

said at the very begining of her show today that the spoils far outweighed Bush's margin of victory. Don't know what her source is though.

[liveoaktx]

26. Just to stir the pot-anyone remember after the first debate

when Bush said something to Kerry like he would call him later or vice versa? I thought that was odd.

[demokatgurrl]

32. I'm a bit comforted to read that- that this isn't "really" Kerry

because I am damned disappointed in what I thought was a "fight until the last dog dies" mentality. I guess I got spoiled by Clinton.

[robbedvoter]

33. What about the Fla electoral votes capitulation? IWR?

There are more, but what's the point

Famous last words:
"I have no time for those crying in your teacups for stolen elections"
John Kerry, campaign trail 2003

[judaspriestess]

35. some questions on the lingo

what is a freeper?
and what does n/t mean?

sorry, kinda slow on computer talk sometimes:D

[henslee]

49. bless your heart, you are precious.

[TheKingfish]

55. freeper = www.freerepublic.com, n/t= no text

[progressivebydesign]

56. n/t means "no tex t" saves us from looking for a message..

.. rather than just a one line point made on the subject line. "freeper" is a person from FreeRepubic.com. They are NOT our counterparts on the right, but they think they are. We're much smarter, well-adjusted, and better looking that they are. If you're called a freeper here, it's an insult. BIG TIME.

Welcome

[coreystone]

45. What % of the "provisional votes" were contested by Republican...

Sorry! I should have memorized this, but, there seem to be a bit of confusion on my part.


:-)

[nomatrix]

54. Elizabeth Edwards has breast cancer

they knew before the election but didn't want a sympathy vote.

It took a long time for all the manipulation of votes came to light in FL.

One of the moving to tears parts of F9/11 was the Congressional Black Caucus House Representatives coming to the Senate. Watch the House on C-Span and you will be moved to tears on a regular basis. Dem's are left out of meeting before votes, aren't given bills until ready to vote, etc.


The Senate and House have a majority. Thank God not Super majority (60) in the Senate. Kerry needs to be back in the Senate for now.

[Rose Siding]

72. Damn me to hell, but I think I'd have taken that sympathy vote

That hadn't even occured to me before but the stakes being what they are....I'm a lessor woman.:(

[mzmolly]

59. The votes were not their, and Elizabeth Edwards has cancer.

I think it was a combo of the two.

Should we find fraud, I'm certain he'll champion the cause to get to the bottom of it.

[BayStateBoy]

69. How Did They Know The Votes Weren't There?

5.8 million provisional ballots alone not to mention absentee ballots have not be yet counted.

[mountainvue]

62. I'd love to know.

I still can't believe it. Edwards wanted to fight.

[Copperred]

63. CONTACT EDWARDS

CONTACT..... EDWARDS THIS IS HIS ONLY SAVE GRACE

HE IS DONE FOREVER...HE NEEDS TO PICK THIS UP AND LEAD IT AND LEAD IT HARD WITH DENNISS>...


RK

[robbedvoter]

65. Yeah, he can concede even faster 3 h before polls close Super Tuesday?

Saving grace indeedy!

[symphony]

73. why is he giving up now, THE CHEATERS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT

with their hand in the cookie jar ... I can't start any new threads, but think what you'll read below is quite important. May provide legal grounds for recount. I hope it's not too late. I hope the Democratic party doesn't just roll over and capitulate. They need to stay on this.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said.
Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry's 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct.
Bush actually received 365 votes in the precinct, Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections, told The Columbus Dispatch.
State and county election officials did not immediately respond to requests by The Associated Press for more details about the voting system and its vendor, and whether the error, if repeated elsewhere in Ohio, could have affected the outcome.
Bush won the state by more than 136,000 votes, according to unofficial results, and Kerry conceded the election on Wednesday after acknowledging that 155,000 provisional ballots yet to be counted in Ohio would not change the result
The Secretary of State's Office said Friday it could not revise Bush's total until the county reported the error.
The Ohio glitch is among a handful of computer troubles that have emerged since Tuesday's elections.
In one North Carolina county, more than 4,500 votes were lost because officials mistakenly believed a computer that stored ballots electronically could hold more data than it did. And in San Francisco, a malfunction with custom voting software could delay efforts to declare the winners of four races for county supervisor.
In the Ohio precinct in question, the votes are recorded onto a cartridge. On one of the three machines at that precinct, a malfunction occurred in the recording process, Damschroder said. He could not explain how the malfunction occurred.
Damschroder said people who had seen poll results on the election board's Web site called to point out the discrepancy. The error would have been discovered when the official count for the election is performed later this month, he said.
The reader also recorded zero votes in a county commissioner race on the machine.
Workers checked the cartridge against memory banks in the voting machine and each showed that 115 people voted for Bush on that machine. With the other machines, the total for Bush in the precinct added up to 365 votes.
Meanwhile, in San Francisco, a glitch occurred with software designed for the city's new "ranked-choice voting," in which voters list their top three choices for municipal offices. If no candidate gets a majority of first-place votes outright, voters' second and third-place preferences are then distributed among candidates who weren't eliminated in the first round.
When the San Francisco Department of Elections tried a test run on Wednesday of the program that does the redistribution, some of the votes didn't get counted and skewed the results, director John Arntz said.
"All the information is there," Arntz said. "It's just not arriving the way it was supposed to."
A technician from the Omaha, Neb. company that designed the software, Election Systems & Software Inc., was working to diagnose and fix the problem.


Why didn't the box assign any votes to Kerry if this was just "an error"?