So we get a senator to join Conyers...

[KerryDownUnder]

Then what? Sorry, but I haven't heard anyone explain how a successful challenge leads to a Kerry victory. Is there any way that it will? Because from what I've read it sounds like it will be a one-day story and that Bush will still have the same number of electors that he would have gotten had the challenge not been successful on January 7.

If the objective is to make a protest vote or get a couple of hours of debate on the election irregularities then great. But at the end of the day it seems highly unlikely that the Republicans are going to be swayed - regardless of the evidence - and they have the numbers they need to install Bush.

Am I missing something here? Everyone seems so excited about the prospects of what Conyers is doing but how does that get us to a president Kerry? I want the headline in the New York Times on January 7th to read something other than "Democrats challenge results but Bush wins again".

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. It may be that it will fizzle and * will still be Inaugerated...

but....

The investigation has revealed so much, far more that we had for Florida in 2000

More people believe this time, because it has spread over the whole US

One way or another, this will help bring down the evil ones!!

:evilgrin:

[Not a Sheep]

2. Yes, Bush still wins. The challenge doesn't lead to a Kerry victory.

Unfortunately, you are right, Bush still wins. Of course we don't know how much the MSM will pick up the story and what the public reaction will be.

Some people here like to say "here's proof of fraud" and "here is the smoking gun" but at this point that simply is not true. I wish it were.

[Patchuli]

12. I respectfully disagree

because there is definite proof of wrongdoing, from the machines,
the company (Triad) who wrongfully 'adjusted' the machines before
the recount could be done, from the disenfranchisement stories from
many. There's plenty of proof. What there isn't enough of is protest
from those who feel this election was ripped off through malfeasance
and chicanery. The fact that the Ohio secretary of state, Blackwell
is trying to hide and avoid making statements screams "Fraud!" He
should never have been allowed to preside over elections with his
alternate hat of helping head the Bush campaign in Ohio!

If the election is proven to be fraudulent, I believe the House would
pick the president.

On the other hand, remember how 'triumphant' Nixon went down in less
than two years after re-election. There has also been a break-in and
theft of Democratic computers and voter information, back in October.
That is exactly how Watergate began. This thing is going to unravel
right back to the perps of the crime. Hopefully, it will take less
than two years though!

[Benhurst]

17. Whatever else is proven, there is more than enough evidence,

a generation after the death of Dr. Martin Luther King, jr., African Americans are being denied the franchise, and not just in Dixie.

What a disgrace!

Any senator or congressman who isn't willing to take a stand against that -- whether Democrat or Republican -- and join Congressman Conyers and the Congressional Black Caucus in their challenge to the 2004 election, is unfit to "serve" in Congress.

"When I consider that God is just, I fear for my country."
-- Thomas Jefferson

[roenyc]

21. wow you know just how i feel

its such a travesty of justice! its as bad as making Blacks use a different bath room.

these people are insensitive bastards and they do not care who they hurt or what they do to get what they want.

i for one cant stand what they did to the community of black/minority/working and poor people. its unacceptable. hell lets just lynch them at the polls next year.

what we all need to remember is that many people in this country still do not view people of color as equal.

If a white senator does not stand up for these people they are saying that it is OK to do this to the black man. and its not OK!

man i just want to scream F-U. it pisses me off so much. for one thing growing up in Bklyn NY, in the ghetto you have no idea what the hell is going on in Georgia or that their was such predjudice like there was in the south.

and now we are going backwards. its so awful. i cant stand it. and its the liberals again walking with the Black man who will have to stand up and scream. and i expect a senator to scream.

[Benhurst]

24. Hey, roenyc. You can tell your friends you know of

an old white guy in NC who feels the way you do! I guess that in itself illustrates some progress has been made over the years -- but, dammit, there hasn't been enough.

I am as angry as you over what happened in this past election in Ohio, Florida, Tennessee, and God only knows where else. I'm sure North Carolina was not an exception. With the "election" of George W. Bush, my vote was stolen just as were those of the people of Cleveland who, in good faith, stood in line for hours to cast theirs.

It's past time for our members of Congress, regardless of race or political party, to take a stand on this.

I hope, besides the blackbox evidence, Representative Conyers is going to base his case on the blatant racism which laid the foundation upon which Bush and Company were able steal whatever extra votes were needed. I know some seem to think this is complicated by Ohio's corrupt Secretary of State being an African American; but in some ways it strengthens Conyers' case.

This is a simple matter of right versus wrong. To deny any citizen equal access to the voting booth is plain and simply wrong. To deny a whole class of our citizens the right to have their votes counted is an abomination.

I feel we have reached a crossroads in our country's history. I'm hoping, but not expecting, the Democratic members of Congress to come together behind John Conyers and the Congressional Black Caucus.

Those who lack the moral courage to take a public stand on such a basic issue, will no longer have my support, including such party luminaries as Senators Clinton and Kennedy if they fail this test.

It's time for all Americans to stand up for what is right. We must demand no less from our elected officials.

As Jefferson wrote over two hundred and thirty years ago, the government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed.

Without such a base, government ceases to be legitimate.


:spank: Correting the usual mistakes

[SharonRB]

3. Unfortunately, that's most likely what will happen,

but it will tarnish Shrub's presidency and will pave the way for more discussion and investigation. If we're really lucky, which is doubtful, it will put a hold on things until it can all be sorted out. Sorry I don't have the links handy, but there have been many, many threads discussing the procedures and what could/may happen.

[Patsy Stone]

4. It de-legitimitzes *

It'll show there ain't no mandate. It shows that it wasn't a fair election. It will force the Repugs to install him without Democratic support and show solidairty against the BFEE.

Maybe * will be installed, but it ain't gonna be pretty.

[mountainvue]

13. Bingo! The downfall of

the chimp begins!

[Not a Sheep]

14. 2 Questions.......

"It shows that it wasn't a fair election."

What do you mean exactly that "it shows that it wasn't a fair election"? If you mean it proves something, I'm afraid you're wrong. If we could prove something then we're onto something big. But at this point, there's no "proof". We only have evidence.

---------------------------------------------------------

"Maybe * will be installed..."

Are you saying that you believe that perhaps Kerry will be inaugurated instead of Bush?

[Patsy Stone]

18. It shows that

there are doubts. It shows that there is evidence of voter supression and perhaps violations of both state and Federal election laws. If fraud is indeed proven (whenever and however) it will be a good old fashioned second-term scandal -- bigger than a stained blue dress from The Gap.

As for JK getting in, again, if it is actually shown (though time is short) that "shenanagaii" put * back in the win column, who freakin' knows.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

6. It's Not About A Kerry Victory

[katinmn]

7. it will help prevent further corruption

At the very, very least, we must get legislation requiring verifiable paper trails and remove partisan and corporate interests' ability to hijack elections!

edit: grammar

[Nothing Without Hope]

8. Even if * is inaugurated as **, we MUST repair the election process

Yes, I would love for the election to be thrown out as hopelessly corrupted and for an honest election to be held. But I doubt that is going to happen. Two months -- Nov 3 to Jan 6 -- just isn't enough time to gather all the irrefutable proof that needs to be assembed and convince enough people that the election was stolen.

As has been discussed on this board before, for example HERE:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x217829
It would be a mistake to put all our hopes on Jan 6, for then we would have nothing left if the election challenge fails. Whatever happens, we are in for a long, frustrating fight to get the truth exposed and to repair the damage that has been done to the integrity of the electoral process.

So we do everything we can to support Conyers and everyone who stands with him on Jan 6, to find and spread the truth, and to reestablish the rule of constitutional law.

[Quakerfriend]

9. If we get in the streets and protest

the outcome might be different.

[liam97]

15. Yes, absolutely

[Not a Sheep]

16. I think you may be right....

If we had been in the streets protesting our election like they did in the Ukraine, we may be at a different point right now.

[Ryder911]

10. My greatest hope is that...

it will lead to serious election reform with Federal standards. Even if the allegations of electronic voter fraud go unproven, I think it will be pretty difficult for anyone to argue that African Americans weren't disenfranchised in this last election. That alone warrants systemic election reform.

[The Judged]

11. It's a license for MSM to eat *alive and prove the election theft.

[Not a Sheep]

19. I wouldn't count on the MSM. They have constantly failed us. /eom

[s-cubed]

20. yeah, but they still love a good storyt, and this is a humdinger!

[corbett]

22. Representative Conyers' Activities Constitute Only One Of Three Angles

Challenging the validity of the Electoral College is the best and purest method of correcting the election results. However, it is not the only angle pursued at this time. We also have the judicial process at the state and federal level in Ohio which seeks to do many things, including reseating the electors for that state since they were seated illegally and conducting a hand recount of the entire state which will give the victory to Kerry no problem.

The second angle is the 14th Amendment Civil Rights challenge fomented in part by ReDefeatBush.com That brings an entirely different dynamic to the process and has the potential to stir more civic outrage. I firmly believe that Mr. Conyers will prevail but he has reinforcements all around!

[No Exit]

23. Let me ask you something

You say it seems highly unlikely that the Republicans are going to be swayed, regardless of evidence, and they have the numbers they need to install Bush. You're quite right, I think.

But how many of those Republicans were "elected" through similar fraud, both in 2002 and 2004? Why must the investigation, etc., stop at only the presidential election? If there are fraudulently elected people sitting in the House/Senate, then why should their votes on this matter (or any other matter) be considered valid?

Let's pretend we're on the other side of this issue. Suppose we were Bush cultists. Just the fact that one senator and one congressman stood up, just that alone, would make us feel panicky. And once the snowball is started rolling, we'd think, how could it be stopped?