DEMOCRATIC WIMPS! Stop it!!

[grasswire]

Harold Ford is on television right now saying once more that Democrats have to learn to talk about religion and faith and yada yada yada. I've been hearing the same crap all day from the mouths of Democrats. It's like an abused wife -- "If I only try harder, if I only try harder!"

STOP IT!

STOP TAKING BLAME for the narrow vision of morality the right has imposed on the public discourse!!

Morality is more than their narrow, twisted vision. Morality is jobs. Morality is accessible health care. Morality is clean air and clean skies. Morality is equality under the law. Morality is the protection of civil liberties and Constitutional guarantees.

So STOP letting them define what Democrats need to do! Stop!

Stop making their narrow agenda more noble than the Democratic Party's pursuit of justice and righteousness. Stop acting like underdogs! Stop now. They're framing the debate.

[wurzel]

1. He has a point. If we don't speak the language we can't communicate.

[liberal N proud]

7. If we just become republican we don't have to worry about the language

Do We?
Democrats are different than Republicans for many reasons and our views that everyone has the right to practice religion in his or her own way or even to chose not to is one of those differences.

Democrats are democrats because the want to be free to think and make value dicisions for them selves.
If you play their game you will let 25% or the American population set your agenda. I am not going to do that even if it means death!

[wurzel]

11. We understand social language. They understand moral language.

We have to put our social agenda in moral terms. Which isn't difficult.

[liberal N proud]

14. Elaborate Please

[wurzel]

19. We have to explain distrubution of wealth in moral terms.

Health care is a moral issue. So is a living wage in a wealthy society. So far the religious right are taught to see morals only in terms of sex. Something that Jesus said very little about. Except don't throw stones.

When we talk about these things in terms of policies and social problems. They simply switch off. They are not into "politics". In fact they have a healthy scepticism of "politics and politicians". That is why Republicans avoid using these words like the plague when talking to their "base".

[Lostnote03]

23. Wurzel.....

...Thank You for pointing out the obvious....We are a great society that has become blinded by our own minutia....

[wurzel]

28. I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic. But I was asked to elaborate.

[Lostnote03]

30. Hey Wurzel.....

....A bucket full of imformation is not what is needed, you have it correct in that moral code speek is needed when argueing statistics/actions with the GOP.....I'm sorry for being vague in my reply however when speaking of right and wrong these days I feel that the shism one has to leap has widened....

[wurzel]

33. Why are Dems so reluctant to talk in moral terms?

I am an atheist. But that does not stop me from seeing social issues in moral terms. And I have no hesitation in pointing to the parables of Jesus when discussing social issues. But always in the context of his being a "philosopher" rather than a "divine". But I find believers are quite receptive. They don't switch off. Religious Republicans do seem to sincerely believe that if you don't have "religious" values then you have no language to discuss morals with.

[Carni]

48. No offense BUT

I believe that I read somewhere that our wonderful politicians have to gear their comments in debates and speeches to people at the second grade level.

There is NO WAY people are going to sit through all you are speaking of above--the percentage that like bush like him because they can understand him (regardless of how stupid he is and how stupid THEY are)

You're not going to get these evangelicals and whoever in the south to sit and think about abstract moral concepts.

IMO They wouldn't "get it"

[Lostnote03]

51. N/P....

....As A resident of KY.....I can value your opinion....However I do not believe it to be as bad as you imply....

[Greyhawk]

36. Francis Schaeffer

Francis Schaeffer, a founder of a group called L'Abris in Switzerland in the 60's (I think) made the important case that one evil that could not be ignored by the people of faith was the growing evil of the increasing consolidation of wealth: not caring for the poor, weak and widowed.

That argument is compelling to people of faith and makes them remember the "social gospel"...

However, you cannot demonize them at the same time for being opposed to gay marriage. Calling them homophobes because they differ on a policy issue is counter-productive. Instead, argue for civil unions..

Argue against war but be prepared to say that some wars aren't evil. (Sometimes we won't even say that WWII was a good war against "evil"... that just plays into the hands of those who will co-opt the "moral" question)

We have to find a way to use words like "America is basically good" or we won't win. Americans don't want to elect people to office who don't appear to be positive. We need positive candidates. (And I'm not saying Kerry wasn't positive so don't flame me)

[Comadreja]

42. Maybe he means

we should smack the clueless stepford Christians in the face with their own book which shows how far from Christ their demented ideology has come.

"A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, you shall also love one another." John 13:34

"Do not return evil for evil. Avenge not yourselves, but rather give way to wrath; for it is written, vengeance is mine; I will repay, says the Lord. Therefore if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsts, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Romans 12:17-21

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." I John 3:15

"If anyone says, I love God, but hates the brothers or sisters, he is a liar... Whoever loves God must also love the brothers and sisters." I John 3:20, 21

"See that none render evil for evil to any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men." I Thessalonians 5:15

[springhill]

35. If they start talking God and Religion....

This is one voter they will turn off for good. Being a "Christian" and believing in God does not necessarily translate into being "moral." Religion is a private thing and should stay that way. I do not want it mixed in with politics. You can stand for good and moral things without bringing God into it.

[FeelinGarfunkelly]

43. Sometimes I feel like a broken record

But if you want to turn these people who are voting against their own self interests because of the wedge issue like abortion, you have to talk on their level. In Red America, a person's religion is known by their church attendance. It's like community knowledge. The biggest club at my high school was the Fellowship of Christian Athletes--and if you didn't belong to FCA, you might as well "not belong." I don't want religion mixed with politics, either, but where is the harm in relating the teachings of Christ--something that Red America can try to get a grasp on--in rhetoric? We need to be poetic like a preacher, and our gospel must be Democratic values.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

39. The language is this K.I.S.S. - Keep it simple stupid

Bill Clinton understood this. I think John Kerry is a good man but too many Americans have no more than a three second attention span. He didn't connect with them.

[are_we_united_yet]

45. Horseshit!

[liberal N proud]

2. That is one of the reasons we lost, we let them set the agenda during the

campaign and set it they did.

[dave502d]

3. What do they want? Us to be them,ok we vote for *. hell no.n/t

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. Grass, I am gonna say it again:

Right here, right now, more than ever before, we need LEADERS. Clear, concise, passionate voices. For us, for the country and for the world. let us all know that there are adults, who understand us and what we are feeling right now, after our unsuccessful labors.

You just know THEY made sure that they kept their troops in line and committed just this way.

We cannot be allowed to drift.

Mr. Ford? Ambition. Taking advantage of the vacuum amongst Dems.

[Nite Owl]

5. Let's hit them with the

10 Commandments. Thou shalt not steal. (Halliburtin) Thou shalt not kill. (100,000 Iraqi civilians) They want religion smack en with it and make them answer.

I really don't believe that this was the issue that won. They said the exit polls were wrong, isn't this information from the exit polling? Is it only right to suit them? I think it's a trap.

[goclark]

26. Love your commandments Nite Owl

You should start a Ten Commandments Thread.

Let's keep it in their face what a real Christian is!

I have been a Christian all my life and they are stomping all over the Lord.

We need to put your Commandments in their face every day.

[Nimrod]

6. I s'pose they can talk about faith if they wanna

But I won't be part of ANY group that tells me who to like, hate, fuck, or pray to. Period.

[Francesca]

8. I agree just read Lakoff's book

"Don't Think of The Elephant" based on a recommendation from someone here... Great discussion on how the Conservatives have framed the debate not just on social issues but the enviro as well "Clear Skies Initiatives" "Healthy Forests"....

[Carolab]

9. 100% correct

I have been on forums all day and people are talking about how "we" need to learn how to "reach out" and talk to this "moral" base.

WHAT A CROCK! WE are the MORAL MAJORITY. This is all spin, spin, spin.

[grannylib]

10. Rev Sharpton said something similar on Tweety the other night. We

must not let the Reich Wing define morality and faith and values; we must expand people's understanding of morality to include things like corporate ethics, economic choices, forign and domestic policy decisions, etc. And we must try to educate those who have half the sense God gave a goat, so they have some understanding of the deadly implications of voting these filthy hypocrites into office simply because they claim to oppose abortion or gay rights or whatever.
They are PANDERING FOR YOUR VOTES, FUCKING DIMWITS! And doing so in such a way as to continue to further marginalize the poorest in our society, and to let the size of the lower classes mushroom. They need a nice group of slave laborers to do the shit work and the service work and the menial tasks, and serve as the inferiors so that the obscenely wealthy can have some peasants over which to lord their lofty status.
How very Christian of them.

[grasswire]

12. yes!

It was Sharpton who made me realize that Dems are falling into a dysfunctional trap.

It isn't DEMS who are morally inferior.

Don't let them DO THIS!!

Stop this lily-livered pandering. Even Nancy Pelosi was doing it: "We weren't able to communicate our message and have to start talking about faith."

NO! We have to make THEM start talking about justice. And equality. And liberty.

[FlaGranny]

22. You'll never get through to

them that way. I have relatives like this. Their eyes glaze over if you talk about important things like justice, liberty, peace, equality. They have to be made to see that they are immoral because they don't follow the teachings of their own bible. You can only do that in their own language and with the bible they believe in. Of course, you could always just ignore them. I do a little of both.

I feel like showing them the error of their ways so I'm making a T-shirt with a peace dove on it and the words: Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of god. Jesus, liberal" I like it. They can't challenge it if they are Christians.

Edit: I think my real goal is to shame them. How better than with their own beliefs.

[Carolab]

38. WRONG

This "morality play" is all a SMOKE SCREEN to hide their REAL motive, which is GREED. These people don't want to have to pay for welfare, someone else's abortion, elder care, social security, or anything else that they see as something they, personally, don't use or need.

THEY ARE GREEDY.

And, also, they are afraid that someone (some boogey man--take your pick here) will come and take THEIR STUFF. This is why they want/have GUNS--to protect it.

Don't be FOOLED. They are all a bunch of HYPOCRITES who hide their sins behind the Bible and think that one day a week in a church allows them to spend the rest of the week in decidedly UNCHRISTIAN behavior.

[Enraged_Ape]

44. Ding ding ding! Give that DUer a prize!

The right wing "morality" has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with "religiosity", hypocracy, and above all, selfishness.

[FlaGranny]

49. You don't know the same kind of fundies I do.

You are mixing several different "breeds" together. The gun/protection crowd (NRA) are not fundies. My fundy relatives' idea of marching off to war is going to Africa to convert people and that's what they do. My family has no "stuff." They give it away. They are the kind who only see abortion, gay rights, and morality as the issue. Otherwise they would be Democrats. They believe in social security and elder care, and everything else we believe in. They are the ones who voted for Bush ONLY because they think he is like them. Since they believe Bush is a Christian they cannot even imagine that he would go to war unless we were in great danger.

[silvershadow]

37. aint that the truth

[pinkpops]

13. I completely agree.

[CelticWinter]

15. I will talk religion with them I will talk about Mother Earth and

Father Sky, the Old Ways, about Celts and Druids. But I bet they dont want to talk to me about them.
Blessings
~~Celtic

[BillZBubb]

16. We are at a huge disadvantage.

The Repukes always give the sheeple things to both FEAR and HATE. They also provide a rationalization that makes the FEAR and HATE socially acceptable. That grabs them and holds them.

That's how Repuke scum like Rove make a living. And a good living it is because they are appealing to people's basest selves. It's the easiest sell in the world and it's not just on moral issues.

Trying to expand the definition of morality will not help us. We will be merely preaching to the choir. Democrats already get it for the most part. Asking the sheeple to think abstractly about morality just will not work. It has to be something that get them in the guts, not the head.

The problem we need to be solving is how to: A)Diffuse the FEAR, B) discredit the HATE on various issues. The Democrats never seem to get that done.

[robbedvoter]

17. Clark had a great way of turning the table on these: family walues

are being able to feed your kids, religion means helping the needy, etc
And yeah, we need not "repent" seing how we win and it was stolen

[mreilly]

18. I don't have faith, nor any interest in religion

... and I have no patience for those who think this stuff is more important than feeding our familes and keeping our air clean. If I was religious or wanted to go to church, I would become a Republican. And I refuse to allow this past election to force my views or priorities to change so I can accomodate the simpletons who think discussing Jesus or their values is something I actually give a rat's ass about.

Religion, like one's penis, ought to be kept zipped up and out of sight. I consider it to be a private issue of interest to no one else but oneself. Nothing sickens me more than this notion on the part of those who are devoutly religious that everyone wants to hear what they think. Except perhaps the incessant evaluation of a political candidate's "faith." It's OK for us agnostics/atheists to have to vote for someone who yammers on about their religion, but God forbid (no pun intended) someone should actually try to hold office and publicly admit "I have no religious beliefs... I don't go to church."

[sandnsea]

20. That's what he meant

Christian faith teaches all those values too and we're going to have to talk about them in moral terms, even though it offends some who think we shouldn't talk about faith at all.

[KT2000]

21. There is nothing wrong with the Democratic Party

or Democrats. Part of Gingrich's (and Norquist's) plan hatched years ago was to destroy the Democratic Party, to quote Gingrich - Democrats are the enemy of normal America.

The plan that has become the drone of RW media has been to "make evil" everything the Democratic Party stands for. It is working. The solution is not to berate our values or turn into Repub lite. The solution is to tell the American public what is really happening to people. Tell the truth about the ugly side of American pay as you go casualties.

Ford has established himself as a sycophant with his remarks but had he said anything different, would he be called back to be a voice for the left? Probably not, so he decided to sell out the party. What an ass, I thought he would do better than that.

[susanna]

24. Amen. n/t

[President Jesus]

25. Amen, brother! We have wayyy to much 'God' speak in politics

What we need to do is not adopt their language so as to win their votes, we need to clearly show these people they are being exploited by the GOP. The GOP has done absolutely nothing for the god people except give them lipservice, and float some unpassable bills out there.

Break their blind faith in the GOP...but don't pander to their medieval bullshit.

[The Sheik]

27. In the words of a typical right-wing religious yahoo...

"The Libruls want to eat your babies and STEAL YOUR BIBLES!"

[bullimiami]

29. GODDAMNIT. STOP ALREADY.

we dont need to talk to them or figure them out. we beat them fair and square. we need to have real elections and we will control this country.

we dont need to figure out what we did wrong. we didnt. they are a minority. we need to take over and tell them to bugger off.

[Vadem]

31. I agree with you Grasswire! I just can't stand Harold Ford!....

I know a lot of people like him, but I find his DLC ruminations more than I can stand!

[GettysbergII]

32. Please investigate HR 1399 and the Dominionists

The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004 and the Dominionists
Militant Christian Fundamentalism poses a definite threat to the Constitution and the American way of life as we know it. Check out the meat of The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004 which is a bill currently in Congress pushed by the Dominionists. This is a bizarre perversion of Christianity that was founded by R.J. Rushdoony, who also co-founded the Council for National Policy, the very scary secret society of awful rich and powerful wingnuts. These is a real sick religion of some real sick puppies and if we can get an awareness of this bill and this religion out to the consciousness of mainstream America, I truly believe the American people will be outraged. We need to force the religious right to either publically denounce this theology or embrace it a genuine form of ¡¥Christianity¡¦. Either way the vast majority of the country will be appalled and be forced to rethink which party stands on higher moral ground. Please investigate these links thoroughly.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR03799:@@...

Constitution Restoration Act of 2004 - Amends the Federal judicial code to prohibit the U.S. Supreme Court and the Federal district courts from exercising jurisdiction over any matter in which relief is sought against an element of Federal, State, or local government or officer of such government by reason of that element's or officer's acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government.

Prohibits a court of the United States from relying upon any law, policy, or other action of a foreign state or international organization in interpreting and applying the Constitution, other than the constitutional law and English common law.

Provides that any Federal court decision relating to an issue removed from Federal jurisdiction by this Act is not binding precedent on State courts.

Provides that any Supreme Court justice or Federal court judge who exceeds the jurisdictional limitations of this Act shall be deemed to have committed an offense for which the justice or judge may be removed, and to have violated the standard of good behavior required of Article III judges by the Constitution.




http://www.thementalmilitia.org/modules.php?op=modload&...
The Dominionist movement was founded by the R.J. Rushdoony,who also co-founded the Council for National Policy, where many think the real Republican Convention takes place

The "Constitution Restoration Act of 2004" is no joke; it was introduced last month by some of the Bush Regime's most powerful Congressional sycophants. If enacted, it will effectively transform the American republic into a theocracy, where the arbitrary dictates of a "higher
power" -- as interpreted by a judge, policeman, bureaucrat or president -- can override the rule of law.

The Act -- drafted by a minion of television evangelist Pat Robertson -- is the fruit of decades of work by a group of extremists known broadly as "Dominionists." Their openly expressed aim is to establish "biblical rule" over every aspect of society -- placing "the state, the school,
the arts and sciences, law, economics, and every other sphere under Christ the King." Or as Attorney General John Ashcroft -- the nation's chief law enforcement officer -- has often proclaimed: "America has no king but Jesus!"

According to Dominionist literature, "biblical rule" means execution -- preferably by stoning -- of homosexuals and other "revelers in licentiousness"; massive tax cuts for the rich (because "wealth is a mark of God's favor"); the elimination of government programs to alleviate poverty and sickness (because these depend oÈÎn "confiscation of
wealth"); and enslavement for debtors. No legal challenges to "God's order" will be allowed. And because this order is divinely ordained, the "elect" can use any means necessary to establish it, including deception, subversion, even violence. As Robertson himself adjures the faithful: "Zealous men force their way in."

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cor/domi...

There are many negative effects that the teachings of DT are having on evangelical Christianity today. Four of these would be:

(a) Reconstructionists teach that the mission of the church goes beyond the spiritual transformation of individuals, to a mandate to change society, a "moral patriotism," if you will, in opposition to secular humanism. For Christ to be pleased with Christians, thereby, they must become political and social activists. We must change the laws of the land, gear up to elect Christians to office, and generally seek to take dominion over our world and bring it under the Law of Moses. We see the influence of this thinking even in those who may know little about DT -- James Dobson, Larry Burkett, the Christian Coalition, Pat Robertson, Promise Keepers, Charles Colson and the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document (ECT), and Operation Rescue, are but a few of the evidences that reconstructionist thinking is beginning to dominate the so-called evangelical world;

(b) Motivation for godly living, based upon the blessed hope -- the return of Christ (Titus 2:16) -- is replaced with the task of restructuring society. This cultural mandate to restructure/restore society is a task that may take thousands of years, even by the DT's own admission (approximately 36,000 years, according to David Chilton);

(c) If we are in the Kingdom of God now, then the Charismatics are correct to teach that health and prosperity is the right of every believer today. This is why "Reconstruction" Calvinists and "Kingdom Now" Charismatics have formed at least a loose unity -- they both have the same world view. They are not looking for Christ to return and set up His Kingdom; they are attempting to set it up for Him; and
(d) A theological anti-Semitism exists in the Dominionist plan to replace of Old Testament Israel with the Church, often called the "New Israel" (i.e., "replacement theology" -- the church replaces the Jews as the new or true Israel, and Israel has no future as a distinct nation within God's plan).

[glitch]

34. If we didn't already HAVE the majority -- they wouldn't need to OWN vote

count machine producing corporations.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1104-38.htm

[Lori Price CLG]

40. Well-said. Kick. n/t

[Geek_Girl]

41. Look they have an army of Religious Political Operatives

That keep the Christian faithful in line. That's the root of the problem. Their organization and strategy is to use religion and not just words but the actual religious leaders to keep these people in line. I've seen it first hand prior to the election my Christian friends were very dubious about Bush and I had thought they would vote against him.

But just a few months before the election they start talking about what a moral man he is. It's like they did a 360. I know Rove sent out marching orders to the Christian ministries and they did just what Rove wanted them to do, talk about abortion and gay marriage and scare their congregation using fire and brimstone sermons. Crap Rove even got out the Amish vote.

Your not going to beat this with words sorry. This is medieval corruption at it's worse.

[robbedvoter]

46. Mark Crispin Miller: this is a diversion, side issue pushed by some wackos

They wouldn't accept newly converted anyway.
We need to differentiate ourself proudly from them"
he said it on Morning Sedition.

[demokatgurrl]

47. That's exactly what pisses me off so much about the party-

always conciliatory, always trying to please, always turning the other cheek.

Aren't there any elected Democrats or party leaders with BALLS, other than maybe Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean????

[grasswire]

52. sorry to burst your bubble...

...but Nancy Pelosi was hand-wringing on Wednesday and saying that Dems need to learn to talk this way and that way to please right-wing voters (who will never vote for Dems).

B.S.

[spanone]

50. Read Paul Krugman in NYTimes and grow a spine folks

No Surrender

Http://nytimes.com/2004/11/05/opinion/05krugman.html?hp

[EndElectoral]

53. Well said