What are your top 5 smoking guns?

[garybeck]

It would be interesting to see how similar our thoughts are on this.

Dictionary.com defines "smoking gun" as:

Something that serves as indisputable evidence or proof, especially of a crime:

Of course, this is subjective. But in my opinion there are several smoking guns already.


My top 5 (not in any order)

* TRIAD employee uses cheat sheets - proves Ohio recount was not valid

* Bev Harris catches Volusia Cnty officials putting real audit logs in garbage

* Analysis from many experts on exit poll data

* Precincts in Ohio with greater than 95% turnout; canvassing of local areas finds more registered voters who didn't vote than could exist.

* Systematic voter suppression - voting machine allocation, use of outdated voter lists. Objective analysis of data shows much higher rate of problems in minority areas.

* Whistleblowers Clint Curtis, Wendy Orange....


Sorry I guess that was 6

[Liberty Belle]

1. those, and more votes than voters in some precincts.

[garybeck]

3. I didn't know there were still more votes than voters?!?!

I thought they "corrected" those numbers. Which county are you referring to?? ARe you saying that even in the certified recount there are some precincts with more votes than voters?!?!

[Igel]

7. Unfortunately, right-wing sites are putting King County (WA)

in the "more votes than voters" category.

Let's hope King County can reconcile the problem, if it hasn't already.

[Nothing Without Hope]

2. Those are all good, and I believe there will be new ones

That lockdown in Warren County remains unexplained and is very suspicious. So is the illegal removal of the log books at Blackwell's orders, and a lot of other things.

I think Michael Moore's people and other filming crews have probably got some lovely voter suppression incidents documented.

The thing is, there really has been so little time --just two months! -- since the election, and inevitably not everything has been gathered up and organized yet. And when the lights start coming on, there are some cockroaches that may be caught before they can run to cover.

Blackwell has pretty clearly broken some laws and I am hoping that he or employees of the voting machine companies or others who would be in a position to spill some serious beans will do so as the pressure for disclosure builds. Blackwell strikes me as someone who would not be willing to take a fall quietly if he thought he could save himself by incriminating someone else.

[IndyOp]

4. I put all my favorites here:

There are a few more than five --
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x221594>

:kick:

[garybeck]

5. that's really good

I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing but I just put a link to it at the top of solarbus.



the one question I have, which many know I've stated before, is why are we only asking them to contest OHIO? We should include FL and NM in our requests. Since Diebold, Clint Curts, Wendy Orange, and other important evidence is not in ohio, it couldn't be presented to the Senators when we ask them to contest. I also can't be presented during the testimony that may take place on 1/6.

Wouldn't it be bad if Clint Curtis' story couldn't be told just because we didn't ask our Sentors to contest FL?

[IndyOp]

16. Thanks for linking the "Case for Fraud in Ohio" on solarbus!

I would really, really like to know what is happening in FLA and NM and Texas and NC -- there is so much I can't track it. I would really appreciate anyone who took the time to write up summary about those states or about issues that impacted multiple states. Maybe I will give it a shot this next week...

Thanks for all of your work garybeck!

[forgethell]

6. If it's "subjective"

it can't be "indisputable". Hence, not a smoking gun.

[garybeck]

10. "indisputable" is subjective n/t

[forgethell]

12. Not really, no!

"Indisputable" means it can't be disputed. "Subjective" means it's just a matter of opinion, which can always be disputed.

[garybeck]

26. Even indisputable evidence can be disputed

by a republican

[pauldp]

27. Johnny Cochrane

convinced a jury that a mountain of proof including DNA evidence against OJ was indecisive.


(typo fixed on edit)

[garybeck]

28. exactly my point

that's why I say we have to stop cowering to the idea that there is no smoking gun. there IS a smoking gun. there are MANY smoking guns.

[pauldp]

29. absolutely!

We could have a picture of Rove with his hands inside a Diebold tabulator and they would say "that doesn't prove anything".

[Bill of Rights]

8. Here are mine

1. Exit polls flopping to Bush after being for Kerry and AFTER there was an electrical blackout.

2. More votes than voters in some Ohio precincts.

3. TRIAD employee using cheat sheets.

4. Voting machine computers are hooked up to the AP and god knows who else. What can be uploaded can be downloaded.

5. A third-rate burglary in Toledo at the Dem headquarters where voter info was stolen but nothing else.

[McCamy Taylor]

9. 1-5. Blackwell tries to hinder exit pollsters in Ohio. on election day

I am convinced that if we knew with whom he discussed this beforehand and if we could get all the document relating to this decision we would find the proof of the conspiracy. He didnt dream this one up on his own. He had to have known that the press was going to give him major grief, and Ill bet the state DA dragged his heels when told to draw up the court documents too. But whoever was planning to tamper with the vote wanted to be sure that exit polls were not realiable enough that anyone could say with any degree of certainty "Excuse me, those vote tallies dont jive with the exit poll tallies we have obtained today." That means Blackwell was in contact either with the people planning the electronic vote fraud or with a middle man, possibly even someone from Rove's office. Maybe he talked to Mitoksky and was told such a distance could be used later to call into question a polls validity.

Of course, we need to find a whistleblower who will testify that such a meeting/meetings took place or find documents, which may be hard to do. But I would love to get Blackwell udner oath and asked whom he consulted about this.

This was the smoking gun on election day which tipped me off that fraud was in progress. I have still not seen any satisfactory explanation from Blackwell.

[sickinohio]

17. That - and Blackwell trying to suppress voter registration in Ohio

because of the "80-pound-stock paper" rule, essentially stating that the registrations were not acceptable if not on this paper stock. Also, not insisting that all counties re-print their ballots after it was ruled that Nader was not to be put on the ballot. Therefore, a little note on the ballot stating that a Nader vote would not be counted. Don't think that angle has ever been pursued, and everyone ignores me when I say it, but it makes sense to me. How many people would pay attention to a little note??? Especially if they've been standing in lines for so long???

[McCamy Taylor]

20. Yes, all those people who had lived in the same neighborhoods for decades

who were deleted for no reason. They need a statistical analysis of the race income and zipcode of people who were purged.

[troubleinwinter]

25. This one is very creepy to me. There is no legitimate

excuse for hindering exit pollsters. Has he ever spoken to this issue??

[sepia_steel]

11. Mine

1. Blackwell

2. Blackwell

3. Blackwell

4. Blackwell

5. Blackwell


I'm exaggerating, but his behavior just REEEEEEKS to high heaven.

[Shalom]

13. Bush Dynasty are Nazis, and George W. Bushitler is a Filthy Fascist ! nt

[bunny planet]

14. Sproul and Associates tearing up democratic voting registration cards

in several states before someone blew the whistle on them, just signing up Republicans. When the dems who thought they had registered went to the polls of course their names were not there because the regs. had been torn up, so they were given provisionals which ended up not being counted. There are people who came forward about this happening. Someone must have their testimony.

Two college campuses where voting was held in Ohio (sorry don't remember the names of the counties) one had 15 minute waits and a couple of dozen machines (there were supposed to be 1 machine/per 100 voters, that was the heavily Republican Christian University. The other college had a heavily democratic African American student body, they got 6 hour lines and two machines, one of them broken.

Last minute court ruling to not allow provisional ballots to be counted if people voted in the incorrect precinct. Provisional ballots should count as long as a voter is registered somewhere within the state he or she votes in. Provisional ballots are counted differently in other states, only in Ohio was there a ruling to discriminate against voters who cast their ballots in the wrong precinct (sometimes even just the wrong table in the right precinct). HAVA set up provisional balloting specifically to avoid voter disenfranchisement for people who had moved etc. The ruling was pushed through at the last minute just to disenfranchise voters whose votes would otherwise have been counted.

Warren County lockdown for false terrorism alert. This STINKS as bad as Rush Limberger cheese on a hot day!

Machines in Florida counting backwards when 30K votes are counted, they then start counting backwards. It was caught, but noone knows how many votes were lost before it was called attention to. Machines in North Carolina only held 4 thousand votes and all other votes over that amount vaporized, could not be retrieved. Who knows how many other places that happened.

All 'glitches' favored His Fraudulency!!!!!!!!!

The list goes on and on and on....... Too much fraud, so little time.

They are so busted. (I hope)

[Senator]

15. It's the SUPPRESSION !!! (stupid...

...well, not you personally stupid. It's like, well, oh...you know what I mean.)

The rest is arguable, deniable, confusing, and frankly non-persuasive to those who are not predisposed to believe.

We need no other "proof."

And even if we had it, this is the simple question that changes minds:

"Are hours-long poll-tax-lines for poor, minority voters AND none for affluent, white voters a tolerable condition for you, personally?"

(In essence -- Are you a racist or not?)

Hey, we're just asking.
___
www.thedeanpeople.org

[Generator]

30. BRAVO!

Guns)

1) The exit polls

2) Ohio being battleground state and being so tightly controlled by Mr. Blackwell, lockdown, and then we get false re-counts

3) Ohio

4)The mood of the country to throw the bum out

5) Florida

6)The gut feeling you know something is just plain wrong. I never felt like this before, EVER. It was instant. I was shocked and awed, and I don't think anbody is ever going to convince me that that many more people voted for this miserable piece of trash. Not that many. Even my husband the most anti-conspiracy man alive, I got him to admit it felt wrong his gut.

[many a good man]

18. Precincts for full hand recount NOT chosen randomly in Ohio

This is a big one in Ohio. If you knew ahead of time which precincts get audited you could scam all the rest risk free...

[EFerrari]

19. What about "most compelling" in place of "indisputable"?

The videos of OH vote suppression and of the TRIAD techie communicate powerfully. (I suppose if we really wanted to reach people, we'd put out a video game :(

[sickinohio]

22. Yes - a video game - EXCELLENT idea!!! Patent that, would you?

I think that would work. Make sure that you add plays that show how the AP has access to the Tabulating machines too.

[mod mom]

21. lets not forget that Security Threat lockdown in Warren Cty OH

on the day of the elction. Always a crowd pleaser!

[McCamy Taylor]

24. Good one!

Some one needs to hire a PI to interview the estranged girl friends/boy friends and neighbors of people who were there that night to see if they heard anyone brag about what was happening.

Plus, divorce rates being what they are in this country, a trusted significant other may become a legal combatant in a courtroom custody battle. People are often turned in by their in laws. Could happen in this case.

And of course there is always the good old fashioned subpoena them and see if any of them balk at lying under oath.

[berniew1]

23. Widespread touchscreen vote machine fraud in Ohio, Florida, N. Mexico

Huge number of votes switched by vote machine fraud in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico. Documented down to the precinct level in dozens of precincts in several Florida counties where millions voted. of those who noticed it over 40% still lost their Kerry vote. For others voting on those machines, likely a higher percent.
Similar in Ohio and New Mexico.
Documentation at http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html