FYI: Why Democracy is being suspended…

[Junkdrawer]

We are about to go through a series of economic disasters. When and in what order each will hit is uncertain, but I assure you they are coming. On the list are:

* The end of cheap oil (e.g. Peak Oil)

* The outsourcing of middle class jobs

* The collapse of the over inflated Stock Market.

* Having to pay off the Social Security “Trust Fund” when baby boomers retire.

Now, if you were a member of the Ruling Class, wouldn’t you be a little concerned about the rise of “populist demagogues” when these hit? Would you really want a functioning democracy in place? Remember, progressive income taxes and the rest of the New Deal came in during the last Great Depression.

Now, here’s the Trillion Dollar question:

If you were, say, a millionaire Senator of either party, whose side would you be on? And even if you thought it was a bad idea to suspend democracy, would you risk losing your influence by bucking the overwhelming majority of your class?

[KittyWampus]

1. How Melodramatic.

[Junkdrawer]

2. Progress. We've gone from 'conspiracy theorists' to 'drama queens'..

Personally, I think Jan 6th will be high drama indeed, although I expect the MSM to treat it as "a day of celebration for Bush."

[indepat]

3. Oh ye of little faith: US facing economic Armageddon is only a 90%

probability according to one Wall Street chief economist, so we must keep things in perspective/not blow things out of proportion. Personally I think the probability of economic Armageddon is only 89%, that the US can likely muddle through indefinitely as long as the rest of the world is willing to finance our budget and trade deficits, albeit wheelbarrows might be needed to haul enough dollars to the grocery store for a loaf of bread, as Germans reportedly had to do with their Marks during the 1920s.

[Junkdrawer]

4. LOL. The Captain of the ship is debunking all "rumors"...

while moving all of his prized possessions to the lifeboats...

[Time for change]

5. I think you are underestimating the decency of the "upper class"

According to the recently released exit polls, even among those 4% in the highest income brackets, 41% voted for Kerry.

And among those with postgraduate education, 58% votes for Kerry.

[Junkdrawer]

6. I wonder how the numbers run as you go from 4% to 1%...

"The top 1% of Americans own as much wealth as the bottom 95% percent."

When I say "Ruling Class", I refer to a fairly small number of people.

BTW: I don't think even the "ruling class" thinks of John Kerry as a "populist demagauge". It's the Huey Longs waiting in the wings that they're afraid of.

[Time for change]

14. The polls don't break it down like that

Still, I admire a lot of our Democratic Senators. I think a lot of them have the best interests of the country at heart, and I'm sure a lot of these are in the top 1% of income. Still, they have to proceed cautiously in today's polictical environment.

[mattclearing]

9. Nobody knows what's going to happen.

There are always doomsayers. Yes, the economic data looks bleak. Yes, the dollar is likely going to suck as long as these people keep spending money they don't have.

A US collapse will put the whole world into turmoil. No one wants that. Propping up the dollar is a major objective for the global community at least until a clear alternative emerges and everyone comes to consensus on what it is and how to embrace it gradually without destroying the world economy.

Also, we have crazy people at the helm and more weapons that we know what to do with. No one is going to make any big moves as long as we are the guy in the corner, foaming at the mouth, with the big bomb strapped to him. We are the crazy country. They don't know what we'll do next.

Which is just how the neo-cons like it.

Will a terrorist attack turn us into the Fourth Reich? Or will we struggle on, get a Dem president in '08 once the dirty work is done?

To me it really doesn't matter anymore. As long as our democracy is as staged as the democracy in Iraq, there's not a whole hell of a lot we can do about it, other than watch, wait, and do what must be done when whatever happens happens.

[TruthIsAll]

7. What influence? With Bush in the WH, the problems are made worse.

Besides, they are millionaires. They don't need the money.

[Junkdrawer]

12. If you asked Ted Kennedy what he has accomplished...

during the last, say, 10 years, I'm sure he will point to a long list of legislation that wouldn't have occurred is he wasn't there.

And I think that he may well believe that he can blunt the blow when the shit does hit the fan.

Now, make no mistake, I'm not defending election fraud in any way, I'm just trying to get a bead on what is actually going on. Let's put it this way: I find it hard to believe that the leadership of the Democratic Party doesn't know the score.

When people come into this vote reform movement, their first instinct is that "if they only knew the truth, they would put a stop to this." But I can tell you from personal experience, activists who work hard on this are often shocked by stiff opposition from our own leadership. Something is going on.

[FloridaPat]

8. Someone that reads history. Congratulations. I didn't think of this end.

As for the decency of the average American, we're too easily paniced. For the people in the country to say that taking away freedoms is OK in exchange for security - they are easily mislead. Our government can 9-11 us into a total dictatorship and have more than half the public going there cheerfully. Of course that means the govn't has to keep reality TV going and sports. Keeps the masses entertained and "safe" and they will follow you anywhere.

Read the rise of Hitler.

As for whose side I would be on - I'd be out of the country. I like liberals who think that everyone can rise above the rift-raft. I like a world where the concern is for everyone and not just the "elite". I don't like a lot of the "elite".

[jazzjunkysue]

10. This is my theory of the real reasons for Iraq invasion. All True.

[slackmaster]

11. Sounds like deja vu all over again

* The end of cheap oil (e.g. Peak Oil)

That's what people were saying back in 1974 through about 1978. But it didn't happen then and it's not going to happen now. The market will take care of the problem eventually, by encouraging alternative energy sources. It's amazing how quickly people change their behavior when they start getting hit in the pocketbook, e.g. California electric power crisis of '02. Senator Feinstein said to let the market fix itself. She was right. Gray Davis ignored her and lost his governorship.

* The outsourcing of middle class jobs

Back in the late 1960s people were afraid their middle class jobs would be outsourced to machines. It didn't happen. People learned to operate the machines or moved up into the information economy, where they make machines do the work. Now the outsourcing Bogeymen are third-world countries. Let the jobs get outsourced to where they can be done more cheaply. We'll end up with lower priced stuff in the long run. People in places like India and Ireland need the jobs. It's natural economic evolution that the jobs move there.

No general purpose machine tools are being made in the USA any more. They're made in China and Taiwan, and you can get them for good prices.

* The collapse of the over inflated Stock Market

I don't know how many times I've heard that one in my life. This is not 1929, people. Some segments go up, others go down. The market will take care of itself in the long run.

* Having to pay off the Social Security “Trust Fund” when baby boomers retire.

Another Doomesday scenario that gets repeated every few years, with the date pushed commensurately into the future.

Now, if you were a member of the Ruling Class, wouldn’t you be a little concerned about the rise of “populist demagogues” when these hit?

There have always been crises, populist demagogues to take advantage of them, and fools to follow the demagogues. There is nothing new here.

If you were, say, a millionaire Senator of either party, whose side would you be on?

Mine, and my family's.

Democracy is not being suspended. There were some problems with the way the election of 2004 was conducted in some states and localities. They need to be fixed and those responsible held accountable.

[Junkdrawer]

18. Let's explore these One-By-One, First: Oil...

That's what people were saying back in 1974 through about 1978. But it didn't happen then and it's not going to happen now. The market will take care of the problem eventually, by encouraging alternative energy sources. It's amazing how quickly people change their behavior when they start getting hit in the pocketbook, e.g. California electric power crisis of '02. Senator Feinstein said to let the market fix itself. She was right. Gray Davis ignored her and lost his governorship.

"Market forces" are notoriously bad at husbanding scarce resources. Left to their own devices, fishermen will over-fish fisheries to extinction. Now, back to Oil: OPEC forced the price of oil up. This created a big push to have oil companies and governments explore for new reserves. These reserves were then brought online at about the same time - which forced the price of oil down to $10-$15 a barrel. Cheap oil then fueled the return of inefficient consumption.

There are alternative energy sources. We need a huge push to get these sources online ASAP. Oil & Natural Gas should be reserved for non-energy uses such as food production and pharmaceuticals.

[Junkdrawer]

22. The outsourcing of middle class jobs...

Back in the late 1960s people were afraid their middle class jobs would be outsourced to machines. It didn't happen. People learned to operate the machines or moved up into the information economy, where they make machines do the work. Now the outsourcing Bogeymen are third-world countries. Let the jobs get outsourced to where they can be done more cheaply. We'll end up with lower priced stuff in the long run. People in places like India and Ireland need the jobs. It's natural economic evolution that the jobs move there.

No general purpose machine tools are being made in the USA any more. They're made in China and Taiwan, and you can get them for good prices.

In case you haven't noticed, only some factory workers were able to transistion to hightech jobs. The rest now work at (multiple) low paying jobs and are barely able to make ends meet. And we've moved from households with single bread winners to both parents working. The reduction of the middle class is an established fact.

Now, as to the movement of jobs being "natural economic evolution", I agree, BUT there are many ways the impact here of such forces could have been lessened. I think Gephart's "Worldwide Minimum Wage" is a great idea.

[slackmaster]

31. Can you support claim of reduction of the middle class?

I'm curious to see the data.

What I have heard suggests that African-Americans, Latinos, and other groups once over-represented in the poor class have been making inroads into the middle.

[Junkdrawer]

33. Here's the first site I found in a Google...

http://www.factcheck.org/article249.html

[slackmaster]

35. Thanks

Interesting how they define the term middle class.

...There's no standard definition of "middle class," so we looked at households with pre-tax income of between $25,000 and $75,000 -- a group occupying roughly the middle half of the Census income distribution tables....

Where I live (San Diego, CA) those upper and lower limits are way too low. I've often seen the lower number set at $40,000 per household, and $120 doesn't seem unreasonable to classify as middle class considering the high cost of housing.

A single individual can barely rent an apartment and make ends meet on $25 K here. A couple making $25 K would qualify for a Section 8 housing subsidy in San Diego County.

[FogerRox]

36. Dude --where have you been the 30 years? http://www.51capitalmarch.com /

US census bureau or go to any decent library GEEESEE I'm stunned you dont know this--

1)Individual median income has not kept with inflation over the last 30 years
2)FAmily meadian income has nearly kept up with inflation over 30 years
3)Average FAmily income has risin past inflation over 30 years,
4)top 1% income earners pay has gone up nearly exponentially over 30 years
5)factory CEO used to make maybe 15 times what the factory floor worker made, now its like 425 times what the floor worker makes.
6)In the 1950 's taxes were high-86% top Per. rate 50% 60% for COrps.
7)In the 1950 the middle class was vigorous, the envy of the planet
8)In the 1950's Labot Unions power was at its zenith
9)In the 1950's the US was the Manufacturing center of the planet


This same model holds tru for the Dutch in the early 1400's. they HAD a great middle class they were the great singlew power back then. Remember that NYC was a Dutch colony--it was called NEw Amstredam


SO more wives are at work driving ind. incomes down--The increased disparity of income historically drives revolution--it is socialy, politically and economically destabilizing. The Russian Rev. -1917-The AMerican Rev. The French Rev. ETC.
.


My Mission: TARGET CBS

Join the protest @ CBS in NYC or protest in DC--If enough Peeps show @ CBS I will extend the efforts to other outlets, Like ABC & NBC.

Power to the People ! !! ! ! RIght On Brother KIP ! !! !

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /
[e-mail] /

[Junkdrawer]

29. The collapse of the over inflated Stock Market...

I don't know how many times I've heard that one in my life. This is not 1929, people. Some segments go up, others go down. The market will take care of itself in the long run.

The current Dow Jones is "over inflated" by about 40%. I got that number from a broker who handles the fortunes of some of the country's wealthiest people. He confirmed that the over inflation comes from all the baby boomer retirement money in the market because of low interest rates. And that means that if the boomers retire or interest rates rise, that money will go OUT of the market. I'm fairly sure one or the other will happen eventually.

[KoKo]

13. This is all the result of bad Bush I, II and Reagan Policy. SS is not

bankrupt...they just want us to believe that so they can prop up their schemes of "Hedge and Index Trading" in the markets.

Folks keep forgetting that Clinton took precautions to make SS solid...Gore ran on keeping it in a "Lockbox." The Bushies raided it and now want to tell folks that it's the "Boomer's" who are responsible.

Repeat the big lie and it gives them an excuse to reframe an issue to their advantage every time.. Our Dems never refute the "Lie" publically. They allow it to exist by not confronting it. So...it does suit them all. But, it's up to us to get the truth out...

[Junkdrawer]

15. SS is NOT bankrupt. But what happens when the T-Bonds in the...

Trust fund are redeemed? You can't spend the same money twice.

SS taxes above and beyond what is actually spent on retirees and other SS recipients is a regressive tax on the middle class. Were that it was not so.

[buddysmellgood]

16. The only thing keeping people from the streets here is that we are all too

fat, dumb and happy. Plus cable. "Suspending" democracy wouldn't do squat to keep the masses quiet once the shit hits the fan.

[Junkdrawer]

17. And that's why "suspending democracy" is a bad idea...

Change will be had either by bullets or ballots. And if you eliminate ballots...

[McCamy Taylor]

19. Certain Catholic millionaire Senators arent like scum Bush millionairs

they actualy believe that they have been blessed with good fortune and that they owe something to people in need. So yes, a Catholic Millionaire Senator...say a Kennedey or a Kerry... would buck the majority of his class in order to prevent a suspesion of democracy.


Sheesh! I thought only Freepers viewed the world in black and white. There are all kinds of people in this world with all kinds of motivation for what they do.

:eyes:

[FogerRox]

20. yawn--I'm protesting CBS in NYC--

My Mission: TARGET CBS

Join the protest @ CBS in NYC or protest in DC--If enough Peeps show @ CBS I will extend the efforts to other outlets, Like ABC & NBC.

Power to the People ! !! ! ! RIght On Brother KIP ! !! !

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /
[e-mail] /

[Carolab]

21. Who cares about them and their "influence"?

It is their concern for their "influence" that brought these disasters down on us.

It's THEIR FAULT. And they expect us to PAY THE PRICE. Fuck them.

[loudsue]

23. You're correct, Junkdrawer.....and those calling you a "Drama Queen"

are the ones who aren't dealing with the realities on the ground.... the same realities that, in all truth, had Kerry winning the election by a wide margin, in spite of 24/7 propaganda for the bad guys.

Your post will be vindicated within the next 2 years. Anyone who doesn't see it is just too brain-washed to deal with the hard truths.

History DOES repeat itself, and 1929 redux looms around the next sharp bend in the road....brought on by PREVENTABLE wars and terrorist attacks, and by other countries being fed up with having the US jerk their chains. A new world is unfolding out there, and our country is being lead by dinosaurs of the cold war, in bed with the new robber barons.

Hide and watch.

Besides, when you don't have fair elections, and you don't have freedom of the press, you DON'T have Democracy. It's as simple as that. Democracy in this country is already dead. They just haven't turned off the life support machine/respirators, so it only APPEARS the patient is still alive.

:kick:

[Carolab]

25. So, then,

resistance is FUTILE?

Sorry, I don't believe that.

That kind of lie down and take it mentality is part of what got us to this state.

[Junkdrawer]

27. I'm not suggesting surrender - I'm just trying to understand...

where we are - really.

[loudsue]

28. Hell NO, resistance isn't futile! Resistance is our ONLY alternative!!

In fact, I don't see how we're going to be able to avoid a civil war at this point. However, without Democracy, we are going to be fighting that civil war with a whole new set of rules than the ones we grew up with.

I think things are going to get serious as hell within the next 2 years, and I think it's going to wake up a whole lot of people as to what we have lost.

:kick:

[xpat]

24. You might want to check out this article

"Thinking about the recent election the other day, something occurred
to me. John Kerry couldn't win. Forget about election fraud -- a
distinct possibility -- for just a minute. I have followed the
evidence of voter fraud, and I am convinced that it took place. What
I am not convinced of is that it made the difference. The plain
truth is that the Bush campaign did exactly what it sought to do. It
painted John Kerry as somehow "alien" to American culture, and John
Kerry let it happen. In order to move forward -- which we surely
must -- it is necessary to understand why he let it happen. The
answer is very simple. He didn't have any choice.

-more-

"

at http://www.conceptualguerilla.com

[Carolab]

26. John Conyers is fighting this

did he "have no choice" too?

The powers that be in the Dem and Repub party are flip sides of the SAME coin. They do NOT care about US. They only care about their "political influence" and serving their corporate masters.

THEY NEED TO GO. All of them who won't stand and fight for US.

It's their JOB.

[Helga Scow Stern]

34. The beautiful thing about the stolen election is it gives us

an opportunity to clean house. It may take awhile, but this whole thing is going to make it really clear whose side our "elected" officials are on.

[Junkdrawer]

30. What a GREAT site. Is that you?

:evilgrin:

[xpat]

38. It's not me, it's us

We're some cyber-guerillas with a network of our own. This site is one of the visible faces, run by a member of our network. He's a damn good political thinker and writer, IMHO.

[stillcool]

32. Every day I say WTF?

Having come of age in the 70's lots of dejavu. And I thought peak oil did happen in the 70's in Texas. I was under the impression that this event is how the whole Texas/Saudi relationship was born. An analogy comes to mind: Team Sport. Say hockey. Sitting in the stands following the puck, unaware of all the hell thats breaking loose everywhere else on the ice. Turn your head to the sound of scuffle, get hit in the head with the puck.
While history has its lessons it doesn't ease my anxiety. Can't help but feel I am travelling on a train waiting for the collision that I know is coming. No matter what action I take this train is colliding for sure. The basic tenets of humanity require it. Tomorrow, next month, next year. The election just takes the last foot off the brake.

[FreeCajun]

37. Ummm... we already HAVE hit those points.

Its already happening.

[Orsino]

39. The moneyed *never* want democracy...

...as a rule. Sure, there are some who came up from nothing--particularly in the entertainment business--and these will keep their sympathy for the rest of us a while longer than will those born to the manor.

I don't think that They're killing off democracy because of impending doom. In fact, madame Guillotine teaches that *no* aristocracy survives a collapse. They're doing it because They *can*.