KOS as a mini-tantrum. Calls election fraud movement -- "fraudsters"

[autorank]

http://www.dailykos.com/

He's complaining because people are complaining that he's not addressing the issue. Says it's a big blog and we can go elsewhere, etc. He misses the point and assumes we're all about changing the results when, all over this movement and DU ***VOTING RIGHTS*** is one of the key issues. He offers some recommendations which are good.

I like the Daily KOS but I think this was a bit childish. It's like the people who dismiss conspiracy theories because they are conspiracy theories -- a tautology.

Ah, well, it is a big blog. CYA around KOS.

[Zhade]

1. Stopped reading Kos when he spoke about Arafat rejecting "the great plan".

Just more repetition of the myth. I don't need to waste my time reading a guy who pushes the status quo built on misinformation.

[autorank]

3. I'll take your advice. Need more room on my toolbar!

What will he say, I wonder, if someone stands up and challenges the Ohio votes, gives an impassioned speech, and rallies some real attention?

[Annus Horribilis]

13. Well, Arafat did

Even President Clinton said Arafat had a chance at peace and blew it.

[Zhade]

23. Man, I'm not EVEN letting this thread get hijacked.

I'm well-versed in the history, and I know that it was neither a "great plan", nor was it entirely rejected by Arafat.

In fact, Sharon and the Likud party has more to do with the failure through active attempts to scuttle it than Arafat.

But again, not letting the thread get hijacked, so I will not respond to you on this matter again. I'm pre-agreeing to disagree.

[art3]

107. Arafat-you already "hijaked "this thread

unfourtunately, your words ave stirred a response from me on arafat and slamming kos for saying arafat blew his chance. I will not sya what organization I am affiliated with, but I will say this--Im a Jew with close ties to Israel. Clinton, the leader of our party, one of the smartest men ever in office, has said flat out arafat failed. period. albright and barak gave arafat most of what he wanted-including 1/2 Jerusalem. including water rights. but instead this terrorist thug, that is what arafat it, blew it and decided to BLOW up his children. remember, as I am sure you do not want MYTHS floating around: during negotiations the inifada was launched by arafat and arafat alone. we know this via intelligence. he tipped his hand. arafat the terorist was unfortunately never able to bring his people to peace because he was a killer. for 40 years he killed my people. 40 years. RIP arafat.
art

[sabra]

110. Shalom Chaver n/t

[whalerider55]

2. i mean, shoot...

republican operatives were indicted in October for sredding dem voter registrations (and three of the six indicted spent OCtober in Ohio...).

i'd call that a good case for voter disenfranchisement in a state that was close...

whalerider55

[Jersey Devil]

4. He is reacting to the hysteria generated here and - he is right

The heart of his post, which is quite sensible and not a "tantrum":

"Us liberal bloggers like to brag that we live in the "reality-based community". It's kind of hard to be reality-based when people are claiming that Kerry won with no hard evidence to the contrary. Was there fraud? Sure. There always has been. Was the GOP ready to steal the election if necessary? No doubt. But they didn't have to steal this one. This wasn't 2000. Bush rode his fucked up war to victory, whether we like it or not. History will judge us right, but until then, we're stuck with the results.

Now, I was open minded at first, letting the fraudsters do the analysis, ready to pounce if the smoking gun was found. But after myriad diaries crying wolf, claiming that this was the evidence to seal the deal, well, it got old. Then it got counterproductive, then it got embarrassing.

All the crying wolf is hurting the cause for electoral reform"

[iconoclastNYC]

What is crying wolf?

How much crap needs to happen before you can say an election was stolen?

[Cocoa]

47. at last count...

there have been about thirteen gazillion "smoking guns," many of them reported by a certain Seattle-area cigar dealer.

[righteous1]

Well said and another thing is the quality and quantity

of reliable information a person is exposing themselves to. When you rely exclusively on "The Free Press", "NA", "Brad blog" and the "Cobb webpage" for all the news, you are naturally going to have a single minded and skewed picture of world events

[super simian]

124. Perfect description of the MSM!

"...a single minded and skewed picture of world events."

When you rely on the MSM you are going to have a single minded and skewed picture of world events.

So if it wasn't for some resourceful people with amazing integrity on this forum, kos, and others, I just wonder how we are supposed to form our picture of world events?

[grumpy old fart]

14. Absolutely.....

The cause needs to be election reform, making sure everyone's right to vote is protected and that every vote is counted. There is no way a "smoking gun" is gonna come up anytime soon. Though the Congress and the lawsuits might eventually turn up some hard evidence of massive fraud, if we're lucky, that can't be the main focus.

[autorank]

17. It's an iterative process. I'm very reality-based and I want a

thorough investigation. I'm skeptical enough about the electoral mess to realize that there needs to be a real analysis of the situation: top down through forensic accounting just like you would see in a court case (based on acceptable standards of evidence derived from statistical analysis) and bottom up based on all the many stories. Sort the wheat from the chaff and draw conclusions. The notion of a "smoking gun" is fantasy now and anyone who demands that, I believe, sets too high a standard. How many valid convictions for crimes are there each year based on circumstantial evidence -- a web of evidence and inferences that prove a case by leading to an inescapable conclusion.

I do think calling people fraudsters when they advocate ***voting rights*** is a bit silly and presumptuous; just as it's presumptuous now to conclude Kerry won. The obvious conclusion is that there was systematic voter suppression along with many instances of highly questionable and unethical behavior.

I agree that the advocacy for voting rights must be reality-based. In a situation like this, where there are no advocates in the media or mainstream party, you get a chorus of voices. What's surprising about that? It's called free speech.

Regards

[Jersey Devil]

22. No disagreement there

Why must all investigations & analysis stop if there are no objections in congress? I think they should all be pursued, but I don't think an objection by a senator or any number of senators would add or take away a single thing from any such efforts.

[righteous1]

28. Even though most won't admit it, it's that they want the election

overturned and Kerry to become president period. The election reform issue is a secondary snoozer. Would like that too, but most clear thinking folks realize that the chances of that are less than slim

[autorank]

53. I don't expect Kerry to get in AND election reform is not a "snoozer."

With all due respect, how can we have fair elections and win if 80% of the votes are counted by machines owned by politically active corporate Republicans; how can we have a fair election if urban voters, i.e., black voters, have to wait in line for hours; how can we have a fair election when a county elections board can close down it's questionable operation for hours based on a fictitious call from "Homeland Security;" and how can we have fair elections when there is no way to verify if they were fair (machines without a paper trail).

I've not mentioned the piss-poor network security problems with these machines (did you know many tally center computers were connected directly to AP, no conspiracy suggested but, ask any teenager, it's lousy security).

We can't win elections if they are biased against us. This is THE ISSUE until it's sorted out.

When the Soviets controlled Poland, the workers had a saying: "We pretend to work, you pretend to pay us."

Out new saying is: "We pretend to vote, you pretend to count them."

Regards

[righteous1]

63. You are one of several exceptions. My comment was most, not all

[autorank]

65. Well, keep an open mind. I think we all may be looking at this as

a voting rights issue. It just infuriates me to no end that urban Clevelanders had to wait hours in line in the rain to vote. Blackwell knew there was going to be a huge crowd. He served as Bush OH Campaign Chairman rather than Ohio Secretary of State when he mis allocated voting machines, no two ways about it. This is a total outrage and is just one example of BLATANT violation of voting rights for Ohio citizens. Remember the "felon list" in FL in 2000 -- 50,000 registered blacks kicked off the voting roles. Many of them tried to vote and were turned away. Gore wins if they vote. There was no outrage then, there damn well better be outrage now. Voting Rights is an issue we championed, the Democrats, and people lost their lives over. WTF, why can't a major Democratic leader get some guts and scream this one from the roof tops. This is not about who won, its about the most fundamental political right anyone has in a representative democracy.

[bemis12]

70. Not exactly

Voting Rights is an issue we championed, the Democrats,

You might go back and read the history of our party in the 60's in this issue. It wasn't one of our shining moments.

[autorank]

96. I was there. I think we agree. Voting Rights is our issue, the Democrats

I see no reason to run from it now. I'm well aware of the history and the sacrifices made to gain this goal. The Voting Rights Act was the sequel to the Civil Rights Act and the logic was very clear. How can you exercise your civil rights without the most fundamental right, the right to vote freely and have it count. Interestingly, there was a whole lot less concern back then about irregularities in counts. The issues were "poll taxes" and "tests" administered to see if people were "qualified" to vote; all generated by racial politics. What is Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004 (to name just one example) if not racial politics. We forget our party's history at our own peril.

[AmerDem]

67. I don't agree

The second Kerry conceded I knew there was no chance of him being inaugurated. What I do want to happen and know and expect to happen is, once the spotlight is put on the voting fraud issue, we will come away with a voting system that is honest, fool-proof and something everyone will feel confident with when the totals come in. Once we get this we will take back every seat we lost in a shorter time than we lost them. We are and always have been the majority.

We have the biggest case of voting fraud and power grabbing in the history of America taking place. Let's get this issue out to everyone both Dems and Reps and I'm confident both sides will insist on nothing less honesty.

[txindy]

46. Right. Sure. So, have Kos call Conyers, Jackson, et al and let them know

I'm sure they'll be thankful for his setting them straight. :eyes:

Kos needs to get over himself. Just because he doesn't see something or believe what he hears/reads, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He never wanted to see fraud, so he closed his mind to it. Now it sounds as if the door was very, very tiny to begin with.

[autorank]

66. Don't look, don't see, great point.

I think that there are a lot of frightened people out there. The implications of election fraud being a true story/event in two consecutive presidential elections is a bit scary. So what, shit happens. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[super simian]

126. Don't know where....

...this "get over yourself" rhetoric came from, but feel it nails the kos tantrum. As in, you have a great blog (figure out how that happened and who contributed) but just the same when the success of this great blog is about THOUSANDS of people, it is not about YOU. So... get over yourself and collaborate with the democracy you love.

[super simian]

68. This is so wrong

"Bush rode his fucked up war to victory, whether we like it or not. History will judge us right, but until then, we're stuck with the results."

Oh come on.

Way to disable the legislative branch of this government which - tho PACKED with repugs -- still has a role to play here.

Just curious as to how you propose to acheive election reform.

You know, I just don't think Americans are that stupid when their bank accounts are at stake.

I'm sure that most of them are grateful not to have bleeding hearts to protect their moral and family values. Must be an incredible relief.

[femme.democratique]

77. Yes, in this "instant gratification" society these attitudes....

...don't surprise me. Do you realize there may very well be SIGNIFICANT evidence BUT WE CAN'T GET TO IT BECAUSE Blackwell is stonewalling? Come on, Rome wasn't built in a day...this is a long-term effort

[Peace Patriot]

78. Jersey Devil, I respond to this below. Please read what I have to say.

I think Kos is very poorly informed on this matter, and very defensive. And he does no one any good at all--except maybe the BushCons--by using derisive terms like "Ohio fraudsters." That will make a nice sound bite for Karl Rove on Jan. 7.

[suziedemocrat]

87. If it's true that Bush really won - then why....

Did the exit polls look so good for Kerry?
Why doesn't BlackSick want to give a deposition?
Why was the Triad guy so interested in "fixing" the "batteries" in the machines to be used in the 3% recount?

In my eyes - just the long lines and hours long wait to vote in the more left leaning precincts while the right leaning precincts had virtually no wait at all is criminal - you heard it - criminal - a modern day poll-tax - especially when extra machines were sitting in storage unused. To me nothing matters if we don't have fair elections - not even an unnecessary war that is going very badly. I left kos more than a month ago and haven't missed it one bit!

[librechik]

98. right on, and welcome!

how can they demand we "prove" fraud before the investigation or trial, without right to discovery and subpoena??? I see evidence of a crime, and I want my elected representatives to check and see if there was, and reassure me as a voter and a mother of voters, that there was no fraud.
There is ample probable cause.

It is heartbreaking that the OH judiciary will likely be too corrupt to see this through for democracy.

[bunny planet]

114. It's sensible but paints everyone who disagrees with him as 'fraudsters'

Some of us don't give much credence to the conspiracy of the day stories but still don't believe Bush won, not by a long shot. There is enough reality based fraud and disenfranchisement out there to seriously call this elections results into question and if the MSM had been willing to report any of it, this would have moved well out of the tinfoil realm a long time ago.

[Machiavelli05]

5. He is exactly right!

Ive had these feelings since about day 3 of this controversy.

I dont even think he's right all that often and I think he's right with this on!


Kudos to Kos!

[The Gigmeister]

6. I agree with him...

"So why didn't I find the Ohio stuff compelling? Because the wacked out conspiracy theories hijacked the issue, taking it away from the obvious travesties -- the long lines in Democratic precincts, attempted voter intimidation, etc., to the realm of fantasy."

SNIP

"All the crying wolf is hurting the cause for electoral reform. This has been painted as a partisan issue pushed forth by wacko liberals who think Kerry won the election when Bush won."




He's exactly right. Personally, I stand with him and Senator Kerry on this issue.

[KittyWampus]

20. Secret Code Electronic Voting Machines & Tabulators Are Fantasy?

This thread highlights the level of willful denial going on here.

[grumpy old fart]

25. Sorry, guess I missed all the hard evidence on that.

I assume you are giving all this to Conyers and his staff. They just sitting on it?

[KittyWampus]

30. Apparently You Willfully Managed To Miss The Threads Stating Evidence

[The Gigmeister]

31. Proof?

And no...The 2004 election plot hatched by the EVIL, all knowing and all controlling Karl Rove does not count as "Proof".

[KoKo]

116. Wacko Liberals he calls us.....Sounds like "Commie Pinko's" to me....

sort of McCarthy like...I won't be going over to his site again. Blech...who needs that. Sounds like a Freeper...

[bemis12]

7. Tough love

That's what it is.

[Helga Scow Stern]

85. More like plain old fashioned denial in any dysfunctional situation. It

happens anytime the unthinkable happens.

[iconoclastNYC]

8. Why is it conspiracy to say they stole/supressed more then 120,000 votes?

Read that dossier on what known about the election in Ohio

http://www.bpac.info/ohiofraud.html

120,000 votes divded by 88 counties = 1,363 stolen votes per county needed.

There should be a congressional investigation but my hope is now fading.

[grumpy old fart]

27. Bad link n/t

[cali]

9. I couldn't disagree with you more or

conversely, agree with kos more. I thought it was a terrific piece, and his suggestions for election reform were right on. Recommended reading.

[AntiFascist]

10. At least...

he gives credence to Georgia10's report and Eugene's post about it. Eugene's post is entitled "Democracy is Dead". Why doesn't kos feel that this is a serious issue? It's sad that the Religious Right machine has so much control that it can now affect the more popular blogs on the internet, in addition to the MSM.

[Walt Starr]

11. KOS NAILS IT!!!!!!

Damn, that was a SUPERB JOB by Kos!!!

[AntiFascist]

21. Nailed what?

I don't see any specifics in his post, just generalizations. He claims the "fraudsters" live in a "fantasy realm". Quite the contrary, based on the specific information I have been seeing it is the Bush camp that has gone way over the top.

[Walt Starr]

24. Nailed the fantasy mentality

that there will be proof of a widespread conspiracy to steal the election.

[luaptifer]

55. Default vote for Bu$h simply a mistake across how many states? I'm sure :-

you're absolutely RIGHT! cause we'll never be able to look inside the systems that 'mistakenly default votes for bu$h or swich kerry votes to bu$h' it's all a big mistake, surely innocent!

and it's surely innocent the e-vote vendors don't want voter-verified paper trails.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/3/7853/38698

and don't forget the freepers freaking about - well, lets just be polite and call them potential mistakes too. see the link in that diary.

it's all just a mistake!



ROFLMAO!!! and this is simply one 'mistake' in the machines of one vendor propagated by how many precincts/counties/states?!

and noone can get a look inside these 'errors', systems are protected as trade secrets!!!

Patterns of vote machine fraud identified and documented in New Mexico, Ohio, Florida, etc.




There are numerous examples in Florida and Ohio where the votes do not match the exit polls but only in those precincts where electronic voting machines with no paper trail were being used. All of these discrepancies are in favor of George Bush by five to 15% despite many of the precincts having a strong Democratic majority. In those precincts where there was a machine with a "paper trail", the exit polls matched almost exactly the actual vote.




Most computer experts who have studied electronic voting do not consider the systems used in the 2004 election to be secure and reliable. The state of California has successfully sued on of the manufactures oven this issue for machines that were purchased for California but not used. According to computer experts who have investigated the security of electronic voting machines, with touch screen machines it is possible to set up a default choice for Bush that would not be seen by the voters. Their votes would be automatically cast for Bush unless they successfully overrode the default choice of the computer. Likewise, if they deliberately chose not to vote for president, their votes would be counted for Bush. These experts indicate that there is evidence that the equipment manufacturer representatives for some of these systems have remote access to the vote machines while they are in service and can change defaults and other settings remotely,and that some of the machine manufacturers monitored the election results remotely on election day. By default, the password for ES& S machines is said to be 1111.

On November 22, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and the Verified Voting Foundation (VVF) announced that they had sent letters to voting officials in eight counties around the country urging them to allow independent testing of their electronic voting machines. The two groups were among the 60 organizations in the Election Protection Coalition which ran an election day hotline and the web-based Election Incident Reporting System. The Coalition received 37,862 reports of election irregularities, including 2,112 incidents concerning voting machines.

The two major machine errors involved voters who selected Kerry on an ES&S

electronic touch screen and saw their vote change to Bush on a summary screen. ES& S machines are the most commonly used in Florida. The second was a specific problem with the Sequoia AVC Edge machine where voters saw preselected default choices presented to them. These are used in 4 counties in Florida. According to EFF and VFF, counties where the most serious problems were reported include Mahoning and Franklin County in Ohio, Broward and Palm Beach in Florida in Florida, Mercer and Philadelphia County in Pennsylvania, Harris County in Texas and Bernalillo County in New Mexico.




A pattern that has been documented based on the experience of voters in Florida, New Mexico, Ohio, and elsewhere(especially swing states) is the machines appear to have been set with a "Default to Bush". Only if a voter successfully punched the ballot for another candidate was Bush replaced by that candidate. But it appears that in many cases the voter did not successfully accomplish this due to failure to notice the problem and in some cases it was hard or impossible to get the other candidate to register. This was a major problem in New Mexico, Mahoning and Franklin counties in Ohio, and also occurred in several counties in Florida, which was the state with the most reported incidences in the incident report EIRS system. Election officials had to replace some of the machines in counties like Mahoning after repeated attempts by technicians to "recalibrate" the machines after widespread reports of problems. This also happened in Florida and New Mexico. The EIRS system also identified patterns of default from Kerry or a minor party candidate on a lesser number of machines. The pattern was also found in some races for U.S. Senate including the race in Florida.

This means that Bush or another default candidate would get not only the votes of those who didn't notice that the intended candidate didn't register, but any intentional non votes or accidental non votes or unsuccessfully completed votes. Quite an advantage. Under normal circumstances this would result in a swing as much as 2 to 4% in many areas. But since some voters would not notice the problem and it is a matter of record that the default was hard to override and sometimes impossible as reported by the EIRS reports and acknowledged by poll workers, only the most watchful or purposeful voters may have been able to successfully vote for a chosen non-Republican candidate. Thus the swing was likely much larger for some machines and even more in some minority precincts that appear to have been targeted to produce high levels of misvotes based on the nature of some of the large number of EIRS reports in minority precincts. There were also a few cases where precincts had machines set to default for a minor party candidate, but none observed to default to Kerry. These patterns have been confirmed by analysts and computer experts in several counties of each of these states using EIRS data and other information. In the big South Florida counties for those who reported the default/switching problem, between 33 and 50% were unable to correct the problem. Since these are for people who noticed the switch, among voters in general the percent having the vote incorrectly cast may be even higher. It was also noted in the EIRS reports that many voters did not know they had to finalize their vote by pressing the button before leaving the booth, and it was noticed that many did not finalize their vote.




Ohio http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/youngstown.htm

Florida www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

New Mexico https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapState&state=NewMexico&cat=ALL&tab=ALL

http://www.votersunite.org/info/newmexicophantomvotes.asp

http://www.votersunite.org/info/NewMexico2004ElectionDataReport.pdf




Vote Machine Fraud documented in the big Florida Coastal Touchscreen Counties

The biggest Democratic counties in Florida of Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade each had dozens of incidents of vote switching reported from Kerry to Bush mostly ,and a few from Kerry to a minor candidate or blank. As well as a lesser number of switching reported in the U.S. Senate race from Castor to Martinez. . Poll workers and poll watchers told frustrated voters who were having trouble that "this has been going on all day". This was so widespread it was even reported to be happening on the radio and television during election day. (see EIRS data)

There were also a lesser number of cases of switching reported in Hillsboro, Sarasota, Pinellas.

Pasco, and Lee counties. Some of these were in the U.S. Senate race.

This appears to be documentation that the "Default to Bush" pattern was programed into the touch screen vote equipment in large numbers of the precincts of the big touchscreen counties. Computers don't consistently do something unless they are programed to do it. The only question is who was responsible and what to do about it. This appears to explain the swing seen from the exit polls in the big touchscreen counties. The exit polls appear to have been correct, as they have been documented to have been in 2000 by recounts by the Media.

Some EIRS cases for each county are included here, based on a very limited search of the thousands of incident reports.

If a significant number of machines were programmed for default to Bush, this would

mean less than normal undervotes where no one gets the vote. This is the pattern seen as an initial look at this determined that undervotes decreased by more than 50% in all of these counties except Broward. But the change in technology between 2000 and 2004 makes a clear analysis more difficult. The experience of Mahoning County in Ohio which uses the same type of machines could be used to compare to. In Mahoning based on EIRS reports of switching including many affidavits that have been , the majority of machines were default to Bush, but some were default to blank. Thus voters for Kerry where Kerry was initially chosen but the voter didn't notice that the vote later switched to Bush would go to either Bush or blank, depending the machine default. Kerry would lose all of them, but the undervotes would not look as unusual. The default to blank might also be considered less suspicious than the default to Bush pattern and be less likely to be reported to the hotline system, which most voters were not familiar with. A focused search of the Florida EIRS data has confirmed the same pattern also exists in Florida, especially Broward County. Several computers defaulted to blank after Kerry was initially chosen as seen in the EIRS cases.

This appears to be clear documentation that the "Default to Bush" pattern was programed into the touch screen vote equipment in large numbers of the precincts of the big touchscreen counties, as well as other default patterns that would cost Kerry votes. The main question is who was responsible for causing this pattern and what to do about it. This appears to explain the swing seen from the exit polls. The exit polls may have been correct, as they have been documented to have been in 2000 in Florida by recounts by the Media after the election which showed that Gore would have gotten considerbly more votes than Bush in a fair and full counting of votes that showed voter intent under Florida rules. This is in addition to thousands of eligible Democratic voters who were found to have not been allowed to vote in the 2000 election.

The Florida EIRS case data that supports the vote machine fraud in the big Florida touchscreen counties is at: www.flcv.com/EIRSFla.html

My previous study that looked at votes by county in 2000 and registrations by party from 2000 to 2004 pointed out an ususual swing to Bush incosistent with other patterns in these counties

( www.flcv.com/fla04EAS.html )




This vote machine fraud pattern is consistent with the unusual shift to Republican documented by several detailed studies of vote and registration data patterns, along with the exit poll data that also documented this unusual and unexplained shift in the official votes.

http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm Mahoning County

www.flcv.com/votefrau.html (includes the Univ. of Calif. Berkeley study and Freeman study)

www.flcv.com/fla04EAS.html

http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexicoGeneralElection.pdf




Various patterns of manipulation of undervotes in minority areas are also demonstrated in the supporting analysis, as well as the "Default to Bush" pattern:

See the EIRS case reports that include such cases and voteprotect.org cases:

Ohio https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapState&state=Ohio&cat=ALL&tab=ALL

New Mexico https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapState&state=NewMexico&cat=ALL&tab=ALL

Florida https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapState&tab=ALL&state=Florida




Widespread systematic voter suppression and malfeasance

There was also widespread systematic voter suppression of minority voters in all 3 of these states which was well documented from the EIRS cases, as well as the following cases and analysis, which also have further documentation on the vote machine manipulation patterns.




Ohio www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=date&selectstate=OH&selectproblemtype=ALL

http://northnet.org/minstrel/columbus.htm

http://northnet.org/minstrel/cleveland.htm

www.flcv.com/ohiov04.html

New Mexico http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexicoGeneralElection.pdf

http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=date&selectstate=NM&selectproblemtype=ALL

Florida

www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=date&selectstate=FL&selectproblemtype=ALL

www.flcv.com/palmbeao.html

www.flcv.com/browardo.html

www.flcv.com/dadeo.html

www.flcv.com/tsother.html

www.flcv.com/flavi04.html

There is a lot more documentation of similar nature available from other sources and other analysts on the same topics.

http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

[Walt Starr]

80. Ohio didn't use those machines

:eyes:

[Freddie Stubbs]

89. Stop using facts to confuse people!

[Zan_of_Texas]

94. Walt says "Ohio didn't use those machines."

You got a source for that, Walt?

We're talking DREs, right? Electronic voting machines?

My source says AUGLAIZE COUNTY used ES&S DREs.
FRANKLIN COUNTY used Danaher/ES&S DREs.
KNOX COUNTY used MicroVote DREs.
LAKE COUNTY used Triad/Sequoia DREs.
MAHONING COUNTY used ES&S DREs.
PICKAWAY COUNTY used MicroVote DREs.
ROSS COUNTY used MicroVote DREs.

You got a better source?

Franklin and Mahoning are two of the more populous counties in Ohio.

But, computer tabulation is used on not just DREs, but punchcard and optical scan machines too, unless I've missed something. The computer tabulators can make mistakes, or be subject to hacking, cheating algorithms, and fraud.

I've talked to computer scientists who specialize in security -- they say they can think up HUNDREDS of ways to mess with these voting machines and voting tabulators, and then they quit and go for a beer -- not because they run out of ideas to foul up the system, but because they get tired.

How many computer scientists who specialize in security and have studied voting mechanisms have you talked with, Walt?

[librechik]

102. good call

not to mention the central tabulators, which no doubt have modems and are vulnerable to hacking.

[autorank]

128. lauptifer, This is an AMAZING post. Thank you.

[Straight Shooter]

72. I remember the fantasy in 2000 that Gore won

:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

79. Apples to oranges

completely different cases. Six figures of votes is a difficult obstacle to voercome when charging fraud.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

86. THIS IS IT!!! BUSH IS TOAST!!!!!

I've listened to enough hokum bullshit like that for the past four years.

I prefer reality, thakyouverymuch. It may be nastier, but it's real and I deal with it.

[KoKo]

97. Walt! Have a glass of Wine or a "Veggie Vitamin..." Sheesh! You are

getting "depressing."

[righteous1]

91. jeeez calm down lest you get reprimanded

[suziedemocrat]

92. more like reasonable suspicion than proof - and it should be investigated!

[SeveneightyWhoa]

12. He's right.

Remember Bev Harris' message on her website the day after the election? Something about how she has PROOF that Kerry is the winner, and that proof will come out within a few days.

And I'm still waiting.

[Walt Starr]

15. At first she had proof that Gore won

then that Cleland won, and finally that Kerry won.

She has yet to produce any evidence.

[grumpy old fart]

16. Bev and Tsunami conspiracy theorists....

are doing nothing to advance the issues. Just make us look like the loony tin hats repukes like to portray us.

[KittyWampus]

18. Bev Wasn't In Ohio

[grumpy old fart]

19. What's that got to do with it?

She claimed to have the "hard evidence" in Florida. Where is it? Hasn't she been fairly well discredited at this point?

[KittyWampus]

36. You've Produced An Irrelevant Topic. Election Fraud Evidence Exists

independantly of Bev Harris.

A great deal of what she produced as evidence is valid.

However, she is not necessary.

That you feel compelled to bring her up says volumes.

[KittyWampus]

26. KOS= Another Dean Supporter Who Thinks Kerry Lost & Subconsiously

believes Dean would have won.

[bemis12]

33. It couldn't have been any worse

A loss is a loss.

[KoKo]

88. YOU have GOT to BE KIDDING! Trashing KOS over DEAN?

You sound like those folks who believe everthing wrong in the world is Clinton's fault....sheesh...:eyes:

[Cheswick2.0]

121. Apparently Kerry thinks he lost.

Apparently Kerry thinks he lost. So I can't imagine why you are making this about Dean. Is he supposed to fix even this for you?

[ohio_liberal]

29. I wonder if Bev Harris' ears are burning

I'm sick of Bev Harris, clearly a headcase who has burned every bridge that paved her way to prominance.


Yeowch!

[AmerDem]

32. fuck him

I hardly if ever visit that site anyway. Sounds like a DLC fuck nut to me. Wasn't it this Kos guy who allowed an advertisement for Man Coulter's book? I'm probably wrong about that but like I said, rarely do I head to that site.

Fuck him and his insults to the folks of this party who really care and are aware of how rampant the fraud is!

[ohio_liberal]

35. I think that was Josh Marshall

:shrug:

[AmerDem]

37. ok

I'm sure you're right. This guy Kos is still a fuck head!

[ohio_liberal]

43. I'll have to agree

I don't know if fuckhead is the right word for me but it's good enough ;)

I wondered about Kos when he praised Sterling Newberry for his unibomber-esque manifesto of the Clark campaign's demise.

[AmerDem]

48. oh shit Newberry

As a staunch Clark supporter from the beginning I remember the nonsense that nitwit caused just because of his ego. I didn't know this Kos guy stuck up for him. Thanks, that tells me everything I need to know!

[ohio_liberal]

51. Oh yeah

Kos gave Newberry the DraftClark site when started to do work for Howard Dean. Kos & Jerome Armstrong owned the domain and started the site. Kos was also friends with Wes Clark Jr (don't know if they still are though, there were some public comments made)

[KoKo]

90. Newberry might not be all bad. Will Pitt met him in a bar and was amazed

at what Newberry said. He gave a link and I went to the site...and Newberry DID have some good things to say...that all of us Dems on the Left need to think about.

But...Pitt's post drifted and so did mine linking Newberry's comments...and it's somewhere in archives. I think Pitt was with him on a heavy drinking night after he had to appear somewhere and it was one of those thingies where we drink and philosophize into the wee hours..but it was good.

Although...I remember very bad stuff about this Stirling Newberry from the Primaries with Dean...I'm not sure that he's such a good guy...but maybe we can't wear black hats and white hats today...Some folks are sort of Grey? and there are shades inbetween?

Google Stirling Newberry, though. Bad a guy as he seemed...there are some good comments..if you hit Googles for December/2004...with Pitt..
:shrug:

[KoKo]

95. Well...Kick this because someone's already started a new thread too soon!

:kick:

[AmerDem]

103. I was part of the Clark yahoo group

and Newberry was also. He was eventually banned because he started viscous rumors that proved to hold no water and was constantly railing against Clark and his campaign as things started taking off. He felt he was somehow supposed to be a key figure in Clark's campaign but he was kind of cast to side, if memory serves me right.

[KoKo]

115. Thanks for the info...

But, he did have some interesting "theories" about where we are headed over on Kos's site about a month ago. I think Pitt linked to it.

But, as I said, in my post...I remember some stuff about Newberry that wasn't very positive from during the campaigns. He gets around, apparently from the Dean Campaign onto the Clark then to Kos...

[ohio_liberal]

117. Yes I remember

I do remember Will Pitt's comments re: his night with Stirling Newberry. Will Pitt sees a brilliant man and I see a unabomber searching for a hoodie and a cabin in Montana. Such is life :shrug:

[grumpy old fart]

38. Insults?

Read the post. It's not a rant, and it's not an insult. It's intelligent criticism. Let's all take a breath here.

[AmerDem]

39. I did read it and let me suggest

you reread my post before you ask a question of something I clearly wrote. Fuck him and his DLC mouth!

[autorank]

41. "Throwing the baby out with the bath water."

That's another way to look at the KOS position. He's unhappy with people he calls extremists in an unstructured movement, so he refuses to pay attention to the valid claims within the movement. Thats called, "throwing the baby out with the bath water."

Thy guy puts himself out there, he can take a little constructive criticism on his positions and rhetoric.

Regards

[luaptifer]

73. it IS intelligent, but still a rant. and valid criticism, by Kos

i returned to actually read the post for the first time after halfway through this thread, on your suggestion old fart.

i think the meat of it is here and i can't argue with it:

If we want to talk fraud, then by all means, do so. Reform? The system obviously needs it. But "Kerry won" nonsense? I'm sick of it.

NOONE has actual evidence in hand that kerry won. but the number of reasons for that is mind-boggling but many very substantially DETERMINED by the fact that most of it is entirely opaque.

you can't watch the process work and KNOW that something programmatic did not flip things, i mean that's why my first argument went to the growing numbers of anecdotes -- i'm sure you recognize that repetition of an event becomes a pattern -- regarding 'default vote for bu$h' and 'transform kerry vote to bush vote'. hell, most of us here would know you gotta hit CTRL|ALT|DEL when the machine is routinely screwing up like that!

but the anonymous vote provides perfect cover to whatever hidden processes may reside in machines made by the finance-contributing-"I'LL DELIVER OHIO's ELECTORAL VOTES, DUBBY!"-republican-CEO of Diebold or his bro at ES&S.

there's just mind-boggling quantities of 'anecdotes' turned 'pattern' in so many aspects of this vote. i mean here's six pages of 3-line-per-item samples of the national 'problem'. when's that mishmash of anecdotes crystallize at least partly into a 'pattern' for people?!

i've argued this before. can i say john kerry won? no, i'm trained as a scientist, show me the evidence. the evidence?! well, the numbers ain't there for a kerry win yet. but it's staggering evidence of more than four years of psychopathic lying to accomplish their insanity:

--------
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/11/24/143638/04/166#166

reasons for suspicion: it's george w. bush (none / 1)

we're talking about!

People are crying fraud because they either want it to be and/or they have no idea that the appalling problems they're learning about this year have been commonplace for a long, long time.
this argument arises everytime, and i'm continually surprised that those put on the defensive with 'you've no basis for suspicion' continually neglect to raise the key point: this administration has proven repeatedly that 'truth is a commodity' tradeable for whatever their purpose of the moment may be. it's an organization that compulsively lies to get its way.

given that AND financial and partisan relations with important vendors of voting infrastructure AND that a key executive offered to deliver ohio electoral votes to bush AND the precedent established in florida in 2000, there's more than enough reason to infer a generalized intent.

when you step back and consider the lies and bullshit they've pulled to dupe the american public into something so fundamentally important as to go to war and that they (and partisans) engineered public ignorance of, for example, findings of three key 911 and iraq reports specifically 'til after the election, you've got more particular reason for suspicion. then you add in the nationwide campaign to suppress or disenfranchise voters by an organization tied to republican finance. considering states where those voter suppression efforts were evident, florida and ohio were among them. neglecting that, you've still got more evidence aimed directly at the election campaign.

all of this may NOT point solely to florida and ohio as BC04 targets though as swing states we know they were important. you are right about the missing baseline for comparison. but there is MORE than enough circumstance and election-directed farce to establish that BC04 1) would do anything including getting us killed on the basis of lies for their agenda and 2) that BC04 had an aura of suspicious campaign-related events. here, you make the point about these two states in particular. you seem to forget with the charge, crying fraud because they want to, that the larger record, upon which i've barely grazed, provides substantial REASON for suspicion of the BC04 campaign.

Tom DeLay 4 MoralitImam

by luaptifer on Wed Nov 24th, 2004 at 19:03:25 EDT
Parent | Reply to This
---

and my guilty followup:

---
sorry, i've a cumulative frustration (none / 0)

that was expressed in my comment that should not be directed at you. you happened to serve as a focal point for that frustration, i apologize. it's a general frustration with people here who seem to assert that there's no good reason to suspect 'dirty things' from the bush campaign.
i say bullshit! to that.

Tom DeLay 4 MoralitImam

by luaptifer on Wed Nov 24th, 2004 at 19:09:07 EDT
Parent | Reply to This
-------------------------
i posted my followup comment here cause structurally my response is to you, grumpy old fart, but i don't intend it so. just like the guy at dKos who was there when my button got stuck after weeks of being pushed.

sorry, same issue for me, same poorly-directed response by me!

[autorank]

34. KOS commits the "straw man" fallacy.

I agree with everybody who says this case needs to be coherent and consistent and not over reach.

At the same time, take a look at this again: "So why didn't I find the Ohio stuff compelling? Because the whacked out conspiracy theories hijacked the issue..."

Here is the logical break down -- whacked out theories cause me to find the "Ohio stuff" less than compelling. He's letting people he considers extremists and "tin foil" material cause him to ignore the many, many instances of problems in Ohio. Thats like ignoring all contemporary political issues because those who control the agenda, the Republicans, are extremists and without credibility. This makes no sense.

There were problems in Ohio. They've been documented. There is a strong case for clear violation of ***voting rights***. How in the world is a challenge to the Ohio election based on major documentation of voting rights violations controversial.

[ohio_liberal]

59. Great post!

:thumbsup:

[autorank]

64. Great avatar!!!!! A truly great man with enough courage for all of us!

[Quakerfriend]

40. I think he's a bit over the top on this one

I usually admire most of what he writes. However, he has refused to believe or speak to any of this since day #1 (Nov 3rd). Frankly, I think he has his own reasons.

I, for one, am a person who is reality-based. I am a research scientist and always want the facts and proof before making conclusions.

There is ample evidence/reason to suspect fraud here!! And, the pile just keeps getting higher. The emotional reaction on the boards aside.

I am somewhat disappointed in KOS.

[Snivi Yllom]

42. I prefer "kooks" to fraudsters.

Appropriate for those who believe Kerry actually won and that the Moon landings were faked.

[autorank]

44. Me too: "not angry, just a little disappointed."

On edit:

Meant as a response to Quakerfiend. Must be a conspiracy :tinfoilhat:

[AntiFascist]

50. There you go again....

What about those, who have been clearly shunned by kos, who feel that whether or not Kerry won is a secondary issue. What should be questioned is the possibility that those in power want to ultimately take away democracy? Sure, they'll let people vote and let them think they are participating in government.

[Laurab]

106. Exactly....

I appreciate them letting me vote and everything, but I'm just not so sure it really mattered. Anyone who has studied Bush, Rove, et al has to know they're not exactly fans of democracy. It's about DEMOCRACY and nothing less. What can be more important?

Yeah, I admit I believe Kerry would have won in an honest election. Yes, I admit I put NOTHING past * & co. And a big yes to the fact that I think there's something a little strange about 99% of the "irregularities" going in *'s favor. Oh, and Karl Rove running the exit polls gives me such a sense of security..

Bottom line is - if I truly believed * actually got more votes, in an "honest" election, than Kerry did - I'd accept it.

Why then do they hamper the recount efforts? Why do they lock down buildings? Why in two * "wins" in a row, were questionable tactics used in important states? I'm sorry, but being somewhat familiar with this administration's attacks on our democracy has made me just a bit cynical. What do they have to fear in a recount?

Sure I'd love to see Kerry in the White House, but then, I'd rather see my DOG in there than the chimp. The thing that concerns me (and it has concerned me throughout *'s first term as well), is the potential loss of our democracy.

"IT'S THE DEMOCRACY, STUPID! We begin defending it by fighting election fraud.

[Snivi Yllom]

120. The primary issue should be election reform

There is no chance Kerry won and no evidence to suggest he did.

There is a great possibility that meaningful election reform can occur, with or without Kos. Kos's point is the tinfoil hat wacko statistics bullshit and the other crazy unsubstantiated conspiracies hurt the potential for real reform for the 99% of us who would take a better election over the promotion of a half baked bad looney tunes conspiracy.

Kos is right.

[Vektor]

45. Kos has a tendency

to do shit like that. I pretty much stay away from there.

[ohio_liberal]

54. Yeah, me too

That's why I came here :)

[Vektor]

58. Me too! n/t

[theboss]

49. I agree with him that the issue is "reform"

It's more than obvious that our elections are broken. And anyone who wins a close election in a broken system is going to have their credibility challenged. But this has degenerated into a partisan issue where we are looking for 200,000 phantom Kerry votes. It should have never been about that.

The issue should have been about proving the problems and if fraud was fund, to uncover it. But the "fraudsters" are working backwards.

What I am upset about is that this partisan approach probably means that nothing will be changed by '06.

[grumpy old fart]

56. Yep. Playing right into the repukes hands.....

I can just hear the repuke leaders: "Election Problems? Nah, it's just them tin hat DU conspiracy folks. Lemme tell ya about their Tsunami theories....

This is not getting the conversation where it needs to be to actually get something done.

[AntiFascist]

111. I'm so sick of hearing about Tsunami theories!!!!!

just because disruptors come onto DU and post tin-foil hat stuff doesn't mean that those of us who are serious about election fraud on this forum think the same way. The fact that people are becomming extremely paranoid about our government should be enough of an indication that something is desparately wrong in Washington D.C.!!!!

[autorank]

60. Partially agree.

There is no vehicle to sort things out. We had a clear demonstration of HUGE problems in Florida 2000. The peoples faith in elections and democracy was on the line. What happened? A lot of money for "Alpha-test" quality voting machines and not much more. The problems in Ohio were anticipated and tracked with the decisions and behavior of Secretary Blackwell. Not much attention was paid to this by the press or OUR campaign. We are now in a situation where many voices are speaking, some logical and evidenced based, some more emotionally based (which isn't a problem with adequate evidence and logic).

There is no higher power available to adjudicate this. It requires a movement.

Why should we throw in the towel because there are some voices we may not like?

That's what KOS did and that's why I call it a mini tantrum.

I'm not ready, nor should any American citizen be ready, to throw in the towel on voting rights.

[anamandujano]

71. So, the senators who won't protest the fraud

are going to convince the majority repukes to fix the problem?

Now that's fantasy.

[jmknapp]

118. To me it absurd

...to say an election was "f'ed" up and discriminatory and in need of reform, but not call any fouls. He's playing with his food.

Reminds me of the old Tammany Hall distinction between "honest graft" and "dishonest graft."

[Quakerfriend]

52. It has occurred to me that

in the weeks prior to the election KOS had received a fair amount of notoriaty...and that perhaps, he fears being "shut down" by this administration. He doesn't strike me as being worried in this way. But, just a thought I had.......

[ohio_liberal]

57. I doubt it

Every once in a while Kos will come up with some random $hit that makes everyone angry.

[progressivebydesign]

61. ALL BIG CRIMES WERE ONCE CONSPIRACIES!

Chew on THAT KOS.

[autorank]

62. Now that's evidence and logic.

Major events in history are rarely random; they are intentional acts involving at least several, often times, many people. Major events in history conducted with ill intent are, therefore, much more likely to be conspiracies. Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

[burned]

69. When you're done

with Kos, make sure you read Georgia10's report, which Kos LINKS to and RECOMMENDS at the end of his rant. It's 56 pages, but doesn't seem that way after you start reading. It's being updated, so don't rag on her leaving stuff out.

Armando's Challenge, Or The Informed Citizen's Guide To The 2004 Election
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/2/19512/47013

[Peace Patriot]

74. Yeah, he calls us "Ohio fraudsters"...

...and the two he mentions, of all us whacked out nut cases, are Wayne Madsen and Bev Harris, in an obvious attempt to marginalize everyone with whom he disagrees by painting these two as beyond the pale.

He doesn't mention any of the PhD's at UC Berkeley, the U. of Penn., U. of Chicago, CalTech/MIT and Johns Hopkins who have weighed in on this issue. He doesn't mention John Conyers or Cliff Arnebeck or Maxine Waters or Jesse Jackson. He doesn't mention the GAO. He doesn't mention John Kerry's legal filings to preserve evidence. He doesn't mention or address most of the evidence. He says there was some fraud in Ohio, but "there is always fraud." (Doesn't mention the 57,000 complaints to Congress of vote suppression and difficulty voting, virtually all against Kerry voters--but does mention a report on Ohio vote suppression at DK) Doesn't mention any of the statistical analyses or the odds against all glitches, anomalies, "redshifts," machine malfunctions, and impossible numbers always favoring Bush, and hurting Kerry.

He says that "Bush rode his fucked up war to victory, whether we like it or not," but fails to mention that almost 60% of those polled STILL oppose Bush's war. How do you figure that? (--and he doesn't mention Bush's miserable approval rating either, 48%--the lowest of any second term president since WWII, and undoubtedly the true Bush % in the election.)

His statements seem naive, uninformed and defensive.

He falls back on election reform as an issue, but who is going to implement these reforms? The BushCon Congress? And, why, pray, would they be needed, if this election was transparent, honest, fair and legitimate?

He calls for national standards. Right. Boy, is he going to be surprised when the "national standard" turns out to be paperless voting on electronic machines with secret source code owned and controlled by BushCon "Pioneers."

He says "All the crying wolf is hurting the cause for electoral reform," but fails to mention who REALLY hurt the "cause of electoral reform" and why (prior to this election).

He seems unable to understand that this election system was a fraud going in--a quite deliberate SET UP for fraud, an open bank vault.

I feel sorry for Kos. I think maybe he has too kind a heart to recognize the BushCons for what they really are, and to understand what they are capable of, and what they did.

One of the things they did, with this fraudulent election, is to fracture that hopeful coalition of grass roots leftists and Dem Party leadership that worked so wonderfully well together to oust Bush (and succeeded, if the truth were known). I think Kos forgets the feeling of that coalition, how powerful it was and how successful it was. He doesn't seem to realize how successful the voter registration drive was--I can't recall the exact figure right now, but I think it was something like a 15% to 20% advantage to the Democrats.

He also doesn't seem to realize that the numbers he saw on his TV screen on election night were false. The Exit Polls showed a Kerry win. Those numbers were then "adjusted" to fit the "results" coming from BushCon controlled central electronic vote tabulators, run on source code that no one in the public has seen. American voters didn't get to see the two separate, conflicting numbers, one showing a Kerry win, the other showing a Bush win (as they did in the Ukraine). That false information was critically important to peoples' reactions.

He calls us the "Ohio fraudsters"--as if our concerns were limited to Ohio. That is simply not the case. I am as concerned about the anomalous numbers in San Bernardino, CA, as I am about any part of this election. I am concerned that the Republican controlled central electronic vote tabulators produced false results across the nation. And I am most concerned about the extensive suppression of minority voters in plain violation of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 in several states, including Florida and New Mexico.

Dr. Steven Freeman says the election fraud in Florida was even worse than Ohio, and I've heard other statements to this effect as well. This is a national concern, and I think that it is shared by most people who bother to look at the facts.

(Freeman: "Although Ohio is the most scrutinized state this year, it’s probably not the worst. Florida, by virtue of a larger vote margin, has gone relatively uninvestigated, but Florida election practices redefine for me the concept of 'legal.'" (part 3, page 35, Draft, "Hypotheses for Explaining the Exit Poll-Official Count Discrepancy in the 2004 US Presidential Election, " http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/epdiscrep.htm.)

Worst of all, I think, is that Kos uses this sneering and marginalizing term ("Ohio fraudsters") against good leftists and Democrats--and even a number of honest Republicans who blog at DU--who have different convictions about this election than his, and, from what I can see, are more knowledgeable about the election than he is. It's a very divisive thing to do, and I think it does nothing but serve the BushCons' fascist agenda, sad to say.

Indeed, it is my worst nightmare. Germany, 1933-34, and the fracturing of the Left.

DailyKos was a true blessing to me in all the months leading up to the election, as I'm sure it was to others (and still is, to many). I have nothing to say against it--nor of Kos having his own views about election fraud--but I do object to the use of such demeaning terms.

Back in the '60s, in the antiwar movement, there was a guy, "Captain Wingnut" (I think that was his name--it's been a long time) who always showed up at antiwar protests, with his whacked out military costume. Crazy as he was, he was a far better man than those ordering the napalming of the countryside in Vietnam, and coldly planning the deaths of over a million people. I would have Captain Wingnuts speak for me any day, and be part of "my" movement, right up there with all the "reasonable" people. Let the warmongers and mass murderers paint him, or us, however they are going to. But we shouldn't help them with their slanders--or try, defensively, to distance ourselves from those whom war and fascism have turned into "crazy people."

[autorank]

93. If KOS reads on message on this thread, I hope it is this one!

[KoKo]

101. He's too "big" I think to be reading DU posts....He doesn't have the time.

We often think we are "more Hot Stuff" than we are...sadly...

:shrug:

[kerstin]

100. Bless you, Peace Patriot. n/t

[KoKo]

An Excellent Post "Peace Patriot." Appreciate all your points

especially since I remember Vietnam and have watched it all unfold since then. Daily Kos (Markos) is either too young or has been told to tow a line...

His commentary left out all the points you mention. It's hard to know where's he's coming from in that tirade of his except either, or, what I said above. :shrug:

[Darknyte7]

75. You know?

I have gotten to the point where I truly experience a visceral reaction anytime I hear or read someone in any way seek to mitigate instances of voter intimidation and suppression. I feel driven to the edge of sanity when I hear it from another “Liberal”.

The Voting Rights Act made it unlawful for minorities to receive disparate treatment by any election process -- no willful or negligent act need be found to have occurred -- a disparate circumstance or result is sufficient for violation.

There's a summary of the Voting Rights Act at this link:
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/intro/intro_b.htm

So I’m sorry, but “a few isolate shenanigans” are not okay. We tried that sh*t in 2000, and we ain’t gonna let that sh*t ride this time around. What we have here is prima facie evidence of what’s called a pattern of behavior. The Justice Department should be all over this.

I never read Kos that often anyway. I’ll likely visit even less often…

[ShinerTX]

76. **cha-ching, cha-ching...***

Hear that sound? It's the sound of Kos selling out. He's been stoked by some positive MSM coverage this year and has been gaining respectibility in the mainstream political world for his opinions (which, of course, means potential earnings for him in the years ahead).

Why risk the potential of putting money in your pocket to express an opinion that your future employers don't want to bother with? Why fan the flames of the fire when putting out that fire will help your career?

Another liberal icon falls prey to capitalism and greed, and once again, truth is the victim. How sad. How pathetically sad.

[Peace Patriot]

83. Yeah, it IS sad, but let's not get into a shooting war over it, okay?

Let's not do to Kos what he has done to us. I don't think it's fair to presume venal motives. You might suspect it, but keep it to yourself, unless you have some real evidence of a conflict of interest--otherwise, this is just vague smearing and name-calling. I can understand your reaction--Kos' attack is mystifying, baseless, off the wall, and uncalled for (why would he attack US and not the BushCons, on election fraud?)--but there could be many reasons for it other than the ones you attribute to him. Our country is in a very, very, very perilous condition, and it just doesn't help at all to be sniping at each other in this way. There are tried and true names for this. The circular firing squad. Divide and conquer. Beware.

[Junkdrawer]

81. New Term: MSB - Main Stream Blog...

Think about it....

[KoKo]

84. KOS...want's to be a "Mainstream Blog." He leaves his "Activism" up

to his "Diarists" where they are "underground."

I give some credit to Skinner (although I don't always agree with him..) for allowing it "all to hang out here in public."

KOS is very controlling even though it's not as visible. And...it's not to say that most of our "Liberal Dem Sites" aren't trying to make a buck and still be "freeform." It's just that some sites do it better than others even though some get cited in NYT's and the rest of the "Old Media" as being "Fringies/Conspiracy Theorists...and worse."

:shrug:

[KoKo]

99. My read of Kos after 11/2 was that he never belived in Election Fraud...

He's been consistent with that...but allowed the "Diaries" to go on with many posts from DU'ers who were Tombstoned posting in the Diaries new info. Maybe he got that "fatal call" from the DNC/DLC..."QUIT IT/CUT IT KOS...YOU WILL HAVE NO FUTURE YOU WILL BE "AIRPLAINED" IF YOU KEEP THIS UP!

Or, maybe he just doesn't truly believe their was fraud and wants to "Move On?" :shrug: Take your pick...or there's something inbetween.

[librechik]

104. who cares what Kos says?

he just sounds tired and cranky.

It must be hellish trying to manage that place. Who needs the bother of "out there" posts which cause disruption and headaches? Especially in the "diaries," which content he has to feel somewhat responsible for.

After all, Kos is not DU. He has no mission to include so many liberals of all stripes, as our dear miracle forum does. It's his personal blog.

I hope he thinks better of us later, if a miracle happens and an investigation of Bushco takes place. It happened with Nixon and what were the odds on that???? Nixon didn't have the paltry "mandate" the Chimp claims, he won in a landslide! So, who knows? For some stupid reason, in spite of all evidence against it, I still have hope! (for a few days more at least)

[marions ghost]

105. thanks for post, autorank

--and thanks to the rebutters of KOS-type thinking who spoke up here--particularly autorank, peace patriot, iconoclast, luaptifer. Good arguments, v helpful when encountering similar blanket dismissals of legitimate concerns about the complex votergate issues.

--"crying wolf is hurting the cause of electoral reform..." (KOS)
I'm always skeptical of those who try to silence others using the argument that you're "hurting the cause" by speaking up at all....

--seems to me that what's hurting the cause of electoral reform is much bigger and more insidious than any of us can adequately express.

The courage of those who will not be so easily silenced is awesome.

[autorank]

109. Thanks for yours...and how about that post #74 & the others. Awsome!

[anaxarchos]

108. What's the beef?

The internet and this board are democratic (small 'd') media. Many post, many theories abound... so what? Conspiracy theories stand side by side with actual testimony, serious suspicions and substantial science... so what? All of it is evolving through one hell of a large town meeting style discussion... this is bad? This is, in fact, democracy - the genuine article.

Quiet as it's kept, the provocation isn't coming from this board. Name one serious theory from one serious source (Media, Dem Leaders, pubs, etc.) of how this election outcome legitimately came about... "hispanic shift", "jewish shift", "black shift", "moral values", "security moms",... not one of them have had a half life of more than a few days; not one was meant to be anything more than a sound bite.

Name one notable Republican (Rossi doesn't count)who has said anything about the need to explain this election... if only for the purpose of "building unity in wartime", or "putting to rest the fears of that 20% of our citizens" who think the election was rigged, or any other crap reason. Name one Republican who has even said "Tch, Tch, Tch" to Blackwell, or to Harris 4 years ago, or to anyone else on the list of shame.

Gimme a break.

[spooked911]

127. Exactly.

my sentiments

[Beth in VT]

112. His vaunted mainstream status is going to his head.

I told him to show more respect for the people who are trying to get the unanswered questions answered.

[bunny planet]

113. Kos is way too impressed with himself, has been for awhile.

I think his being on AAR and writing for the Guardian has gone to his head a bit. I'll have to go and check out the tantrum, haven't been there in weeks. Shame on him, didn't he read the open letter from the African American Democrat who railed against the party for not facing up to the election fraud, and civil rights violations and doing something about it. Her letter was brilliant and she posted it first on his site. Didn't he even read it? He'd better address the issue. He could have used his visibility in other medias to make a difference instead of having a hissy fit. I haven't read it yet, so I'll have to refrain from any more kos roasting until I do.

[steve2470]

119. "Media augmentation" is paramount, from reading this thread and

others. I say augmentation, instead of "reform", because to me reform smacks of censorship. Our viewpoint and the real news about America need to get out there consistently, every day, on cable and on free TV. If I had an extra $200 million to donate to the DNC, I'd earmark it for our own 24 hour news channel. With most of Hollywood on our side, we'd go gangbusters in getting the truth and the Democratic perspective out there. As it is, it's like forcing water through a very small crack in the Hoover Dam - yes, some truth gets through but most of it is held back. I feel like I live in 2 different universes - the corporate media universe and the "real universe" of DU. Once media augmentation occurs, election reform and dissemination of the truth will really occur. And not one nanosecond before.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

122. That dkos thread is now well over 700 posts

I recommend everyone read it. It is a very good thrashing out of WHAT the proper attitude should be of crying fraud vs. "we lost".

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/3/135759/4341

[jmknapp]

123. Fraudster means someone who COMMITS fraud

Not someone who believe that fraud was committed.

That Kos would equate those crying foul with "fraudsters," leads to the equation that Kos=Goebbels.

[glitch]

125. How dare he hijack our word "Fraudsters" and then use it to describe us?

That's just creepy. The BFEE are long time fraudsters in a lot more areas than voting, too.