Ok the question is.. IF Boxer and Dayton do object...

[Machiavelli05]

Or any other senator or combination of Senators object...
Can you guys accept that the reason other Senators didnt object is b/c they believe they can help out our country more by staying in office than by taking the lead on this?

Can you guys stop bitching about leaving the party?



P.S. This is in no way a departure from my previous cynicism regarding the likelihood of a Senatorial objection.... however, the gossip seems to be indicating that I am wrong. I do though, refuse to FLIP FLOP ;)

[autorank]

1. Well, how about a FLOP. 1/2 way there already.

I agree. In my opinion, we need someone to stand up and say "the emperor has no clothes." I'd prefer that it be Sen. Byrd for all sorts of reasons or that he be among those who stand. Even if no one stands, I'm not leaving the party which I think will come to realize grave violations of the Voting Rights Act have taken place.

[Machiavelli05]

2. lol you make fun of what I say in your title...

Then agree with what I say in the body of your post??

[autorank]

19. This how things should be done around here from now on.

Reduces flame wars, little surprises in small packages. This whole deal is driving everybody a little goofy. Need some relief.

[mountainvue]

8. They didn't get it in '00 and they don't get it now.

They need a wakeup call.

[Somawas]

3. It's time that someone said

the Emperor has no clothes. How is not objecting "for the good of the country" still?

[Machiavelli05]

4. because if a vulnerable senator stood

he/she could get unseated and a Republican would be a disservice to this country.

[Oversea Visitor]

6. No logic

If all Dem Senators object tell me how they going to replace all with Republican. The mere thoughts that they be replace is a fear theory. The fear to speak out for what is right. Where then is their courage and self respect.

[Machiavelli05]

7. Its called strategy...

If Reid, Nelson, Pryor, Landreiu(sp?), etc were to stand up it would be a huge election issue. They would risk being replaced by a republican and the Dems would even be further SOL. These Senators have to choose their battles and do whats right on the long term and on the whole - all it takes is one senator to object... after that, a party line vote can occur with less negative consequences. However, I do think that it is unlikely many of the above mentioned senators would vote against the certification.


Unfortunately, the political climate of this country, even if all the Dems stood up and objected, would NOT accept that there was any wrong doing.

Pardon my cynicism.


However, no one is answering my question.

[IndyPriest]

11. I'll take a crack at answering your question -

Yes I believe some may believe they are doing better for the country by not standing. I also believe they are mistaken.

[Oversea Visitor]

18. If no one stand up

why vote, might as well just pick who sit where

[autorank]

20. I'll be very happy with one, especially if its Byrd!

[sepia_steel]

25. Here ya go then

No and no. It's too late for 'strategy'. They have to make a stand or they WILL be destroyed.

[Left coast liberal]

12. Vulnerable senators?

Everyone who isn't bought and paid for by the almighty rulers is vulnerable.

What in the hell do they have to loose?

[bearfan454]

17. They can get unseated anyways with electronic vote stealing. n/t

[autorank]

21. This is precisely the point. They will get unseated by black box voting.

Time to make a stand. I don't think many of them will however. Those who do not stand up now are like that crabby guy that insisted in staying in his shack on Mt. St. Helen's. "I've lived here forever, bla bla bla" and then he gets blown up just like everybody told him he would. Good lard, what's become of the brains God gave Democrats?

[Zhade]

53. Well, they're even more vulnerable if they DON'T stand.

Where the Republicans can decide the outcome of elections, Democrats are an endangered species.

[mzmolly]

5. People will always bitch about leaving the party. I agree it's

pathetic because they forget the MANY Democrats who do stand and fight. Like Conyers and 12 members of the House who have signed on to the issue at hand to date.

[shraby]

10. By NOT speaking out they have a greater

risk of being replaced by Republicans the next time they are up for election, as the machines will still be in place to give the Republicans whatever margin they need to win.

[Machiavelli05]

13. more than 1 senator standing up will not make election fraud go away.

Action on everyone's part will make it go away.

[sepia_steel]

26. The Dems will have no legs to stand on

despite Conyers, who is my hero. It won't be worth voting for them anymore if they DO NOT STAND NOW. Can people not understand this?

[Machiavelli05]

28. If they dont agree with you, why should they support your position?

Only the truly arrogant leave no room for themselves to be wrong.

[sepia_steel]

36. Because

This is not rocket science. If they've seen everything that's been going on, they KNOW underhanded, REPREHENSIBLE things have occured in this election. If they decide to just 'take it', all in the name of prestige, then FUCK THEM; they aren't doing what I elected them to do - to uphold what's right.

You believe whatever you want; I'm gonna stick with logic on this one; thanks. You go ahead and keep shooting for reform LATER. But know this - if the shit doesn't stop now, it won't matter anymore how many votes Dems get. Because they will ALWAYS be stolen.

I AM NOT ARROGANT. I just happen to be able to SEE and RECOGNIZE wrong-doing, especially when it happens blatanly. For god's sakes.

Don't start with the veiled name calling.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. I agree with you Sepia. If they don't stand up, there will be no reform

tomorrow.

Everything is in place for a fascist government here.

[seito]

9. I never thought leaving the party was a good idea

This is my country and my party. I choose to work toward reform.

[Machiavelli05]

14. Thats where I stand.

[teddyk23]

15. a fun game to pass the time

read the upi article from the moonie wash times, no less, and try to find all the inaccuracies. It's fun, like the i spy game in the minipage.

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050103-053855-5995r.htm

[Machiavelli05]

16. LMAO "John' Kennedy

However, this quote: Parks said her group was not composed of conspiracy theorists or diehard Kerry supporters, but of "very concerned citizens" who believe the election was fraudulent. was good.

Im surprised the mood of that article.. it wasnt degrading overall. However, I wasnt pleased with some of the word choice.. "desperate" "frenzied" blah blah

[ClassWarrior]

22. No. I think it's good to keep 'em nervous.

My motto's Never Give Up - but if I can get our Dems to leave the pink tutus in the attic by keeping 'em guessing, cool.

NGU.

[RevCheesehead]

40. Hey, CW - is there a REHEARSAL going on tonight?

I didn't get an invite - did you? :)

[sepia_steel]

23. Uhhh no.

Given the many many MANY instances that add up here, I will not support a senator who does not stand. It's the right thingto do, and it is their JOB. If none stand, our party is ruined, and I WILL go independent, because spineless Dems will not be suported. The fraud is obvious to anyone who is informed. Period.

[Machiavelli05]

30. Im well informed

Senators are well informed
Many people who dont agree with you are well informed.
Just b/c people leave room for doubt, and dont jump to conclusions doesnt mean theyre uninformed.

Just accept the fact that you MIGHT be wrong.

[sepia_steel]

35. Why should I admit that I'm wrong

when I'm not? The facts amount to fraud. Period.

[Machiavelli05]

41. See theres the arrogance.

I didnt say admit youre wrong
Just admit that you dont have all the answers.

[sepia_steel]

47. You said, and I quote -

"ADMIT YOU MIGHT BE WRONG."

And I maintained that I cannot be wrong if my judgement is based on FACTS. YOU are being the arrogant one here. Now you're pretending that you never said what you did. I never said I had all the answers about ANYTHING, so kindly STFU and stop back-pedaling and putting words into peoples' mouths.

[sepia_steel]

51. Ignorinated.

I deal with enough projectionists on boards that AREN'T Freep-proof; so here I just click 'ignore' immediately rather than waste my time reading through bullshit like yours, Machiavelli. How a person cannot see that there was widespread fraud is beyond me; but this is about your attitude, not your views, which I'd be more inclined to listen to if you didn't act like such an asshole to everyone. You had no right to refer to my CRITICAL THINKING as 'arrogance'. If my seeing fraud for what it is seems arrogant to you, then I would say that YOU'RE the one with issues about being wrong, in addition to having *severly* flawed logic.

Don't even bother responding. Not worth it = IGNORED.

[bunny planet]

62. Good advice in this case sepia_steel.

I just love the ignore button.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

31. Exactly

This FRAUD is OBVIOUS to anybody who is informed, and has some level of intelligence. If the party chooses to prove my vote does not count, then they will lose it. I can easily vote independent, or not at all, because why bother when it's obvious our votes are irrelevant anyways.

[BigBearJohn]

61. IMHO you are 100% correct

I'm 54, voted Democrat all my life.
No one stands on Thursday.
Forget it.
I go green.... ALL THE WAY
At least THEY had the GUTS to stand.
End of story.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
This is mine.

[bush_is_wacko]

24. Nope...

If they can't stand up they don't represent me. The only exempt Senator IMO is Kerry. He can't stand up unless all the rest do. From what I can tell he won't even be there and I think that is a very good thing. that goes for my states newly elected Dem Senator too. If they allow the character assassination of Kerry to stand and Chimphole to believe he has a mandate they are not worthy of the positions they were elected to.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

29. About Kerry

First, if he had any balls, he's already gotten the support of other senators, who will stand up for him. If nobody does, then it's obvious he acted like gore and rolled over and played dead.

If no senator stands up, then kerry is the biggest loser in my book, and if he expects any support from me ever again, he's in for a big surprise. I may be only one vote, but the democrats will never get that vote again. That much I'm sure of.

[bush_is_wacko]

34. I'm not giving up quite that easy on Kerry

I think he just might have a trick or two up his sleeve. If 3 years from now I have heard hide nor hair from him regarding *Co. and their criminal behavior, I'll eat my words. I don't think I'll have to though.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

27. If They Treat Democracy As A Farce...

then so will I. Why bother voting for those who are complacent in the face of deliberate Fraud & Facism. Why bother voting at all, when it's obvious our votes are only going to be Fraudulently altered to suit the powers that be.

If nothing happens on Thursday, then it will be clear that we no longer live in a democracy. I see no point in supporting those who have the power to at least attempt to make things right, yet sit by and do nothing. Let them get their support from some other sucker.

[Machiavelli05]

32. Unless something drastic happens I will not vote for Kerry again

He had his chance - time for some fresh faces to the primary scene

Edwards is the only one I would welcome back

Rendell, Easley, Warner, Edwards, Clinton

What a great match up... the battle of some heavyweights.

[BarbinMD]

33. I think that...

...sometimes you have to do something simply because it is right.

Or, if you think the challenge is wrong, look at it like this:

Reasonable men adapt to the world, unreasonable men change the world, all progress comes from change, therefore all progress comes from unreasonable men.

[sepia_steel]

DUPE

"TO SIT IN SILENCE WHEN THEY SHOULD PROTEST MAKES COWARDS OF MEN."
-Abraham Lincoln

[sepia_steel]

38. AND

"TO SIT IN SILENCE WHEN THEY SHOULD PROTEST MAKES COWARDS OF MEN."
-Abraham Lincoln

[No Exit]

37. Pardon me, but the ones who stay seated will not win re-election

because THEIR next elections will be stolen from them.

There seems to have always been cheating in elections, but this is the first time I was aware that the cheating couldn't be looked into (if authorities were so-inclined) because corporations were claiming that the inner workings of elections, i.e., computers and software and votes, were THEIR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. THAT is going TOO FAR!

I believe Max Cleland's election was stolen from him, too. And I believe there's been plenty of stealing lately within Florida statewide elections. It appears republicans have the upper hand on this particular brand of theft. So no democrat's seat is safe.

So for their own survival, they'd better ALL get on this train. I would assume that, if a democratic senator stands up, that the others who remain seated are, nevertheless, helping the cause behind the scenes. They ignore this cause at their own peril. How much clearer can it be, seems to me even a senator can understand it!

[Zhade]

55. Excellent post. Why is this vital point missed so often?

NT!

[No Exit]

57. Thanks! I thought congresspersons were supposed to be smart

so if they haven't figured this out, they'll pay for their own stupidity!

A good showing on Jan. 6 is a great way--perhaps the only way--for the remaining democrats to retain any relevance at all, considering that their opponents literally have all 3 branches of gov't in a stranglehold!

[Oversea Visitor]

39. After 2000

I saw the following happening
American people raise US 234 million for the Democratic party
( not sure on the exact figure raise recalling from memory )
If no senator stand up this time
It will be sad

Lots of people want them to stand up
4 years after this in 2008
Lots of people will know they being abandon if no Dem Senator stands up
The damage to the Dem party can never be repair if they dont
It will not go away it will be written in history
All the marchers all the blog so many in DU I dont think they just be silent for 4 years

[RevCheesehead]

42. I really appreciate your perspective, OV - you give us good observations

I especially liked:
"Lots of people will know they being abandon if no Dem Senator stands up The damage to the Dem party can never be repair if they dont"

I, like so many others, was shocked at what I saw in Fahrenheit 9/11, where not one senator stood up. I heard people in the audience gasp in shock.

Can they afford to let that happen again? I think not.

[sepia_steel]

43. Exactly Right. n/t

[Oversea Visitor]

45. Finally this is a Dem site

But at lots of others site repbublician are also working just as hard
They are also voters. This is a big Fubar. Dont misuderestimate the voters intelligent. Both parties at this moment is in shit house.
Someone make a monkey out of the whole system.
If they dont have a right exit plan US will see the rise of a very strong 3rd party. Maybe it will be better with a 3 way fight.

[Oversea Visitor]

44. I see so many here working so hard

I dont think this people just going to give up
Senators got to stand up to point at all the irregularities
They got to bring attention to these matter
However finally they need to agreed to let chimp stay where he is
However they will insist on investigation being done jointly with Republician. This will be the first step to correct this FUBAR

[zimba]

46. Personally the whole argument of

needing to be re-elected at any cost is partly why the Democratic Party is in the state its now in. The repubs have been having alot of success at taking stands on controversial issues, and people who dont necessarily agree with those positions still end up voting for them cause the cadidates were willing to take a stand. Sometimes taking a stand on controversial issues that you believe in is the most re-electable thing you can do. Deep down many people want to be led, want to feel like there is someone in charge, who isnt afraid to make the tough decisions. If the Democratic Party continues to sit back and play it safe like its been doing, I dont see much hope for it.

And dont think Im bitching about leaving the party, cause Im not. I left it back in the 90's when the party leaders failed to see the insanity in programs like NAFTA and GATT and take a stand against them. Went Libertarian and then Green. BUT, I fought real hard trying to get other Libertarians and Greens to vote for Gore in 2000 and now Kerry, and succeeded with quite a few. I vote for issues and hope for the future, and not down party lines.

[Vektor]

48. A Democrat's wet dream....

Jan. 6th arrives. When it comes time to certify the election, every Democratic Senator EXCEPT FOR ONE, stands up, and contests.

Then, John McCain stands up, and says "This is for questioning my patriotism and making fun of my "black" child, you racist pig-bastard!

A hush falls over the Senate floor as the one seated "Democrat", Zell Miller, stands up, blathering and salivating, and screams "GIT OUTTA MY FACE" then challenges everyone present to a duel.

The doors swing open, and John Kerry, looking hotter than Georgia asphalt, clad in his military flight suit with the strategically placed crotch straps, strides in, shoves Miller back into his seat, and says, "Sit down you 'Cain from Poltergeist' looking mother fucker."



Then, Kerry does a little crotch grab for emphasis, and says "I've got your spitballs, right here, bitch."

Then he becomes President, and I buy a blue dress and become a White House intern.

The End.

[sepia_steel]

49. HAHAHAHA!!!

*massive applause*

You officially rule.

[Vektor]

50. Thank you!

I am tempted to make it a thread of its own. :-)
Thank you for officially letting me into the ruling class.
:toast:

[ebayfool]

54. Damb - I KNEW Zell Miller reminded me of someone scary! You nailed it ...

'Cain from Poltergeist'

[Vektor]

59. He's a creepy one, isn't he? n/t

[glitch]

63. You made me laugh so hard I scared my cat Thank you for cheering me up! nt

[Vektor]

64. Tell the cat I'm sorry...

...but I'm glad you got a good chuckle out of it!

[Vinca]

56. If one senator objects

it might be "political suicide" (although I doubt it), but if many senators object it would be a rebellion like none ever seen in this country. Not only will anyone who objects remain in office, they'll be viewed as heroes by the majority of the population and it will play to their advantage in the future. If the entire lot of them sit in silence, it's time to find a new party. That's not bitching, it's common sense.

[Capn Sunshine]

58. No regard for the voters, yet they want to work for the common good?

How does this logical disconnect work for you?
IF you disregard the LAST BEST CHANCE to stop what is now systemic fraud, put in place incrementally since 1998, how can you hope anything you do after that helps anyone?

I imagine guys like you in the mess halls at the future reeducation camps loudly proclaiming " who saw this coming? We were caught by surprise!"

[intensitymedia]

60. SIMPLE - THE OBJECTION MAKES HISTORY AND MSM HAS TO DISCUSS IT

That's my view - getting Boxer or others to stand up makes this an issue the MSM cannot ignore. And once they get into the specifics of it, the whole house of cards falls apart.

I think it will result in calls for Bush's resignation - if he's actually installed, which isn't a done deal yet either.

peace

che