Okay, DU, I've had enough!!! Sit down and listen up! re: election fraud

[Jo March]

Okay, I didn't want to pull the car over and stop this fighting but I will.

There is way too much fighting going on within DU over the election. I am tired of the fighting. We are a team and we need each other.

So, here is the way it needs to be if we are to get anywhere:

For those who believe that election fraud did happen, the Election Fraud Group (EFG), you need to continue to work on contacting Senators and Representatives to get them to stand up on the 6th.

For those who believe that Kerry lost and we need to focus on the 2006/2008, the Focus on Future Elections (FFE) group, you need to work on getting the word out on good, solid, electable candidates for the next election.

EFG guys - do NOT go into any threads that are discussing good candidates and scream, "It's no use! There's too much fraaaaauuuuuddddd!" Focus on your own tasks.

FFE guys - do NOT go into any threads that are discussing fraud and contacting the Congress members and scream, "It's no use! Kerry lost and we need to focus on the fuuuuuuuuutttttttttttttuuuuuuuuuuuurrrree!"

This has gotten so ridiculous! We need each other. The EFG group, which includes people such as Faye, WillPitt, merh and myself, among others, has its head down and isn't thinking about the 06/08 elections yet. Those elections are going to sneak up on us if we don't watch out and we will be unprepared.

Well, lucky for us, we have the FFE group to work on those elections. This group, including folks like cali and Walt Starr among others, is working toward winning those elections. Of course, they do not see, like the EFG people, that 06/08 won't matter unless the fraud and disenfranchisement is brought to light.

Lucky for us, we have the EFG guys to work on that.

The end result? Regaining our Democracy as well as the House and the Senate.

So, go to your mutual corners. Obey the golden rule. Do NOT attack each other. Respectfully disagree but work for the common goal.

No military wins a war by positioning 100% of its troops in one place for one battle. The war is won by strategically placing troops in different key areas.

We are all on the same team (with the exception of some disruptors). We need to work together.

"A house divided against itself cannot stand." Abraham Lincoln

[helderheid]

1. I done nominated your thread

Good on ya.

-EFG

[Jo March]

3. Thank you. Think anyone will listen?

I hated to get into my "moma" mode but it's sounds like my two kids fighting, you know?

I love DU but it can get quite contentious at times.

[helderheid]

20. I think they are!

And I betcha this gets on the main page. Excellent excellent and it needed to be said. :)

- A fellow mom and EFG (but also hopeful for 06 and 08)

[Jo March]

35. I hope so. If we all stick together, we'll end up in the same place

"The price for victory is high, but so are the rewards."

Coach William Paul "Bear" Bryant

[berniew1]

205. Documentation of fraud and suppression sufficient for challenge

There was widespread and systematic voter suppression of minority voters, dirty tricks, vote machine fraud, and other vote manipulation in Ohio, New Mexico, and Florida- that was of magnitude enough to call in question who won those states.

http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html
http://www.flcv.com/EIRSFla.html
http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19
http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexicoGeneralElection.pdf
http://www.flcv.com/bernalil.html
etc.

and also similar patterns in other states where the suppression and fraud did not change the election results including vote machine fraud in Calif., Pennsylvania, Washington, Texas, etc.
http://www.flcv.com/orangets.html
http://www.flcv.com/snohomish.html
http://www.flcv.com/mercerco.html
etc.

(the voter suppression of minorities in Mercer County is the worst I've ever seen-followup needed)

The unethical and illegal actions were so systematic and widespread that this cannot be allowed to continue uninvestigated and unpunished. There was a huge amount of obvious malfeasance that should be investigated and dealt with.

[NickiWitch]

27. I'm listening

Great post and I agree with you 100%!

Thank you!

[Jo March]

118. NickiWitch, I appreciate that! Thank you. :)

[EuroObserver]

155. Yes, very well said n/t.

[Gelliebeans]

135. I'm listening arnheim

I've nominated it too

[lib_1138]

178. Moma? You mean Mama? nt

[Jo March]

196. No. I spell it Moma.

I don't like the other spelling. I am not Ma-Ma. I am Mom-a. See the difference?

[lib_1138]

203. Mom-a I think I see. nt

[Celeborn Skywalker]

2. Good post! n/t

[Jo March]

4. Thanks! ;) nt

[emcguffie]

29. newbie here

what does "nt" mean?

[Jo March]

33. No text as in not text in the message area

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[emcguffie]

44. why, thank you!

I was wondering when someone would say that to me. I am so "inexperienced", naive, and dumb. But put me in the EFG please. I am obsessed. I tell strangers all the time. I say to them, excuse me, what do you think about our recent election? And if they look sad, or really disturbed, or in pain, I ask them if they think it was stolen. And then I pontificate.

[helderheid]

63. you rock!

I'm not brave enough to talk to strangers on this issue here in Utah. :( I do post on all the Utah Dem boards though :)

[greenmutha]

79. Hey helderheid, I'm from Utah too!

I've had a hard time talking to my *friends* about this. We've never discussed politics before and I found out, post-election, that the idiots voted for *! (The holiday season celebrations were interesting, to say the least!)

[helderheid]

95. LOL! Hi Utah!

Hey, you may wish to join the UDPC if you haven't already (I'm Clarity) www.udpc.org :)

[greenmutha]

106. Thanks! Going to go check it out now. n/t

[khz]

148. Heya Clarity!

Good to see you around!

[helderheid]

156. Heya right back atcha!!

:hi: Good to "see" you here!

[davidgmills]

84. Utah -- Oh my

I live in Tennessee and have had to bite my tongue so much that it looks like I have a really bad case of the herpes.

I can only imagine what you are going through.

[Jo March]

88. I used to live in Clarksville

Off 24 on exit 11!

Small world! :)

[emcguffie]

96. I'm originally from Tennessee

But obviously I knew different people. Because they're all quite liberal.

It says something about the narrowness of my world that I don't even KNOW any republicans, except for a few relatives.

[Blue_In_AK]

115. Tennessee

We just had Tennessee friends up for New Year's week. Oh, my, did I have to bite my tongue. I love these people to death, but when they start talking about what Rush has to say about things, and what a great job GWB is doing in Iraq, I just feel like I'm going to explode. My husband was a little more forthright, but we definitely had to keep it low key.

[Jo March]

120. I was stationed at Ft. Campbell in the KY/TN border.

It was all I could do to keep myself from committing suicide. I was surrounded by freepers. :) LOL.

[Jo March]

119. It's hard to talk to strangers about it. Try talking to friends

first.

Go to this site and print off the PDF.

http://www.bpac.info/

(Thanks, IndyOp!)

Just make a few copies and show it to people who are sympathetic. It will help you practice for strangers. This document has helped me to get it together and remember talking points for discussions on fraud.

Also, you can go to my website: www.domainofarnheim.com and find some links to several items that may help you when you talk to strangers.

Good luck. You are fighting the good fight.

[jkd]

192. Hi helderheld

I'm the only Democrat in Heber City. Not really, but sometimes it sure seems like it.

[leanin_green]

193. St. George here.

Know the feeling. It's pointless to talk to anyone here, so, I just drive around with my John Kerry, President bumpersticker still on.

[Jo March]

197. Well, that alone is making a statement:

No retreat. NO surrender.

IMHO, there is no statement that is too small.

[Jo March]

83. You are NOT naive & dumb

You are fighting for Democracy! :)

[Atman]

5. Bravo

And actually, a damned good strategy that should have been in place from November 3.

Thanks!





1st Amendment Shoppe

[Jo March]

6. No, thank you! I love those stickers! nt

[meganmonkey]

7. O no! Reason and logic and middle ground!!!

I'm melting, I'm melting...aaa...h...h.h..hhhhhh..

Just kidding.

You are right the fuck on with this, I hope people read it and get it and the fighting stops.

Thanks!!!

[Jo March]

12. You are too funny!

I can see you melting, melting.

All that's left is your shoes....

[meganmonkey]

107. And they're GREAT shoes, btw

;)

[Jo March]

121. Was there any doubt about the shoes?? LOL! nt

[merh]

8. But they started it!

Oopps - sorry! You are right. Thanks for stopping the car to deal with this. I'm sorry, I will try to do better.

:thumbsup:

[Jo March]

10. merh, as my new best friend

I say, "thanks."

Can I start the car back up now???

[merh]

21. Yes, please, on with the journey to restore democracy

and get our nation back! On, the road again, just can't wait to get on the road again, half my life is restoring democracy with my friends, I can't wait to be on the road again!

[Jo March]

30. On the rooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaddddd again

Like a gypsy we go up and down these highways
We're the EFG, and we will kick your ass if you don't stand up on the 6th and do your damn JOB for crying out loud -

Oh. Sorry about that. My bitterness was showing!!

[merh]

43. It's okay, have a cookie!

[Jo March]

51. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Tasty and good!

Keep feeding me those cookies!

None for the trolls, though!

Bad troll! No cookie!

[hootinholler]

103. I'm not touching youuuuu.

I won't ask why are the FFE posting in "2004 Election Results and Discussion" Instead of something like strategy, or ....

-Hoot

[Jo March]

109. Cause we are very cool people?

We have funny posts? LOL!

[SharonRB]

9. Great post, arnheim

Put me in the EFG group!

[Jo March]

13. We need all the help we can get in the EFG

Ironically, if we all work together, we'll end up in the same place!

LOL! Big picture, people!!

[Chili]

11. great post

Thank you.

[Jo March]

14. Chili, I have appreciated your posts

Thanks for reading mine.

[Chili]

25. aw thanks...!

...I agree, we're all in this together. And it is disheartening to see people continuously need to prove people wrong. It's antagonistic and I don't understand it. What one group believes is unrelated to the other, so why the sniping?

Oh well. Please keep on trying to keep the peace!

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. I hear you.

Both sides have valid points, and like a good, fuzzy-minded liberal I'll continue to see both sides of both arguments (is that 4 sides, now?).

But either way, '06/'08 is the goal.

[sabra]

16. Can we have a third group?

A mixture of election fraud, and those who are also thinking about '06...

[Used and Abused]

34. We'll have to multitask I guess

And not let our FFE side spill over onto our EFG side and vice versa... I'm a little bit of both as well and every now and then I lash out inapppropriately.

[Jo March]

40. Both sides will meet in the middle, trust me

Give it about 6 months and our separate goals will mesh into one: WINNING.

[ktowntennesseedem]

17. Ditto the nomination and the kudos!

I have found myself stradling the fence between these two camps, and I think you've hit on something. Both goals are worthy goals, and we need to focus equally on both without wasting our energy uselessly debating whose goals are more important. If we discover there was absolutely no fraud at all, we still need to look into to restore trust in the process and make sure no one, Dems or Repubs, ever have to go through such a mess again. And if we prove fraud up to our eyeballs, the next elections are still on the calendar and they will upon us before we know it.

Great post.


:yourock:

[Jo March]

59. Thank you!

Our goals are all the same in the end: winning back our Democracy.

:)

[Eye_on_prize]

105. yes and yes. both/and. solidarity & diversity. several fronts at once

Thank you arnheim for reminding us that 'unity' does not necessarily mean 'everyone thinking and doing the same thing at same time'. The deeper meaning is respectfully and effectively fighting on several fronts at once, and personally I'm now focused on Jan 6th for reasons stated elsewhere...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=230854&mesg_id=231328

..but i also honor those who want to focus attention elsewhere. For the record, however, this forum IS called "2004 Election Results and Discussion". I respectfully suggest that people focused on other, more long term, battles (like 2006 and 2008) start another forum for these equally important discussions.

[Jo March]

122. We do need a forum for 2006/2008 elections

We do have to prepare! Those elections will be here before we know it and we have to be ready. We need good candidates who want election reform and believe in our ideals.

I agree with you about unity. The repugs think that it is all about groupthink. We know that it is not.

This is a big tent. :)

[latteromden]

18. Thank you THANK YOU THANK YOU

I've been thinking the same thing, and people need to see that we can't win an election without a good candidate, nor can we win an election without fair voting. Both need to be worked on. Somehow, I find myself in both of the two groups, I fit right into fraud discussion and future discussions, because I think they're both important at the same time (although I do more focusing on the future). Hey, it works. :D

First post I ever bothered to nominate, this one. :) Thanks again!

[Jo March]

138. Thank you so much

Both groups will merge into one powerful DU force. One that will win elections and wipe out election fraud!!

[liberal N proud]

19. True, Both groups need each other

For myself, I would consider my self to be in both groups.
Sometimes I am fighting the fraud and other times I am focused on what will it take in 06 & 08

Both are valid.

[Walt Starr]

22. So who died and put YOU in the driver's seat?

:eyes:

[merh]

31. Why do you insist on attacking people?

What is up with you today?

[FreepFryer]

41. just wave at him

:hi: he knows why he's doing it :hi:

[merh]

49. But it isn't like him to be this negative about things.

He did such hard work during the election to prove what a lying, hateful, creep the weed truly is and now to have him turn on folks, it is just not like him.

Very disappointing that the elders are attacking so many for trying to make a difference. If only they would channel their energies to help us now. Makes you wonder if only they had tried harder in 2000, would we be here now?

So sad! :cry:

[Jo March]

48. Walt has very strong beliefs, obviously

I do not agree with Walt's negative posts but I will fight to the death for his right to post!

Although, for the life of me, I can't quite understand the constant need to attack those who are trying to come up with solutions instead of endless problems.

[merh]

56. It is so disappointing that he is so negative. It just isn't like

the poster that I followed with respect before the election. :shrug: Yes, he has the right to his opinion, he doesn't have to agree with mine, but why be against the efforts to try to make a difference?

[Walt Starr]

53. A snobbish remark about "pulling the car over"

He's not my "daddy".

:eyes:

[Jo March]

66. Walt, I am not a snob nor am I a man.

The remark about "pulling the car over" was intended as a joke.

You obviously want to be unhappy. That is your right. Be unhappy.
You obviously want to find fault with almost every post on DU. That is your right as well.

I do not post this as an appeasement to you. You are going to be unhappy regardless of what I do or what anyone else does.

I am sorry that your stay at DU is not making you happy. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable on another site?

I wish you some peace, Walt, because you aren't finding it here.

Now, if you don't mind, the rest of us have work to do.

[Walt Starr]

68. Sorry, I took your joke as condecension

and di not appreciate being treated like a child.

[merh]

73. Nor is she your mother, but a little sarcasm to try to make a

point without anger is always a good idea. Some folks just don't want to smile! ;-)

[Walt Starr]

75. Sarcasm is perhaps the most difficult expression to be made

in blog media.

[merh]

76. Only to some that are fixated on the negative.

only to some . . .

[fooj]

157. Not Sister Mary Sunshine...

B-)

Dare you ask?




WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???:think: :think: :think:

[helderheid]

38. Good lord

There's no pleasing some people. SHEESH. :shrug: :eyes:

[BigBearJohn]

39. Yawn

Oh come on. Be nice.
There were some very good points made here.

[Chili]

42. if you think it's all such a waste of time...

...why are you wasting your time being so nasty about it?

[Atman]

50. Christ, Walt!

"Well, lucky for us, we have the FFE group to work on those elections. This group, including folks like cali and Walt Starr among others, is working toward winning those elections.

The guy even gives you props for the work you're doing, and you gotta slap him. Chill, dude. Some very, very excellent points were raised, and must be dealt with. Glad you're dealing with the ones you agree with...that means what arnheim said should work out for the dems if you keep at it! Thanks for your hard work, too, if you need a stroke. But don't dis a guy for speaking the truth!

[Jo March]

54. Thank you, Atman

Don't dis a guy for speaking!

Or, in my case, a gal. ;)

[hereinmissouri]

57. Well, someone needs to drive n/t

[Jo March]

61. Thanks. I was just reminded of my kids fighting in the car

LOL!

It's funny the reaction that I am getting from the majority of posters. Who hasn't had their mom threaten to pull the car over?

LOL!

[FreepFryer]

78. Except in this case, you're not sure all the kids are yours...

or your evil neighbors, hoping eventually to make you move out.

Hard to discipline someone else's kids when they're spoiled rotten to the core, and up to no good, but just wait till we come to a nice lonely stretch of road and dump 'em out the car.

[Jo March]

92. LOL, FreepFryer! That is too funny!

I wouldn't dump them out of the car until I drove past FR. :)

[jimfromthebronx10469]

100. arnheim....what's the use

if the 2000 election was stolen and in hindsight we see that the 2000 flordia vote was stolen i ask why continue? if you remember walden"wallyboy to bush" o'dell stated,"i will do whatever it takes to see that bush wins ohio's electorol votes" take that with blackwell's refusal to answer conyers questions,other ohio vote irregularities and you have the perfecdt outcome republicans win...as a lifelong voting dem i see no chance of ever winning again short of some dem larceny..two stolen presidential elections doesnt sit very well in my system...:toast: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :dem: :dem: :dem:

[Jo March]

110. What's the use? Hmm. My two children who are 6 and 3. nt

[Im with Rosey]

165. I was about to say

who of us hasn't heard or said that? By a show of hands, who hasn't said or heard "stop touching me!" I think most of us got a chuckle during a time of stress! One of the things that set dems apart is the positive flow of can do energy. As my long gone father used to say, "don't let the bastards get you down" although he did edit it!

[Jo March]

189. My kids say that all of the time!

"Stop touching me! He's touching me, Moma!" Drives me nuts!

We are Progressives, darn it, but we haven't been progressing too much lately, have we? :(

That will change. It has to or we are doomed.

[Amaryllis]

174. Well, I thought it was funny, and right on as well. I don't understand

why people can't respectfully disagree and not stoop to attacking. The analogy of kids fighting was great. Shouldn't we as adults be able to respectfully disagree? I am really weary of the attacks and the divisiveness. I started a post today that I thought had some very important information on how to effectively frame the debate wtih legislators and within minutes it had turned into one of those attack wars. I was very disappointed. People losing any idea of the theme of the thread to beat up on each other. I am fairly new but i thought that was not allowed, according to my understanding of the rules. Am I wrong about this? I am very glad to see this thread.

[Pacifist Patriot]

112. My grandmother did so leave her alone.

Keep driving girl.

[Jo March]

123. Why, thankee, Pacifist Patriot

I am a pacifist as well. My one and only tattoo (wild hair kind of thing) is a peace sign with vines entwined around it. It represents my two loves: peace and the Earth.

[Pacifist Patriot]

136. That sounds like a cool tattoo.

My wild hair kind of thing was a belly ring. Not quite ready to commit to ink.

[Jo March]

139. It was quite scary. It hurt when they used the color

It wasn't bad though and no one can see it. :)

[leanin_green]

194. They seem to be the only one watching the road.

[mod mom]

23. Have the FFEs investigated but do not think we have a case or

have they just dismissed us without researching the papers?

[Jo March]

46. I'm not sure. I just respect that they believe we lost

and leave it at that.

I know and believe in my heart that we have to have people working on 06/08 or we will be sunk. That doesn't make the fraud issue go away.

[mod mom]

65. Aren't you getting tired of being dismissed by our own people?

I don't get how anyone can think that this is NOT the ONLY issue that needs to be addressed. How can we expect for them to play fair in 2 or 4 more years. They are getting ready to shove the most conservative judges down the throats of the American people. If we don't fight this now, we will have a more difficult time in 2 years when Blackhole is up for Governor or 4 years when jeb is up for prez.

On the other hand I appreciate them minding the store while we're away.

[Jo March]

125. No. I'm more tired of the fighting. It gets us nowhere

Every argument causes us to lose ground and lose focus.

[cruadin]

24. Well stated; I hope folks consider its wisdom. n/t

[IowaGuy]

26. Sound advice...

compared to a number of you long timers, I'm a really new kid on the block. It has become rather disheartening to me the tone of a significant number of Du'rs that are spending all their energy focused on pointing fingers at others on the same team and pompously declaring themselves morally and intellectually superior to anybody that doesn't agree 100% with them. Its like a breath of fresh air to hear your voice - guess I'll stick around.

[Jo March]

58. I'm glad that you'll stick around, IowaGuy!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Atman]

67. This was part of Karl's plan

"Du'rs that are spending all their energy focused on pointing fingers at others on the same team and pompously declaring themselves morally and intellectually superior to anybody that doesn't agree 100%"

Divide and conquer. Don't doubt it for a minute. The "wedge issues" are only wedges for us...their lock-steppers are already on board with them. The best way to assure their victory (if you are in the FFE group) is to split the dems up into groups smaller than the minority they used as their base to pull off their election fraud and make it workable/believable.

[Atman]

71. Are we there yet?

I gotta pee.

[Jo March]

93. I told you to go before we left the house!! nt

[KoKo]

28. Great post....maybe it will lead to more "discussion" rather than argument

We don't really discuss much on DU anymore. The frustration level and tempers after ll/2 are just too high.

It would be a good start...thanks.

[Jo March]

147. As WillPitt can attest, getting hit on the head with a brick

is no fun. Why do we throw bricks at each other when there are plenty of freepers out there who are more than willing to do that for us?

LOL!

We need more discussion and more working together around here. I hope that it happens.

[peacetalksforall]

32. Very good idea. How about EFAG

I'll join EFG. I'd like EFAG with A for ACTION.

[Jo March]

94. Works for me! :) I'm not trying to take everything over

It's the project manager in me, though. I crave organization. :)

[roenyc]

36. well said

[roenyc]

37. well said

[FreepFryer]

45. Excellent thread - one with which almost every real DU'er can agree

But the freeplets, that's a different story.

This post is a good magnet, 'cause they won't like to see agreement within our community on this point. It might even be good enough that we can expect an attempted 'suicide' mole attack or two ('suicide' is when they actually reveal their freepery before going back to bed with their sister).

Freepies - bring it on! We're coming for you, and we're going to beat you. Enjoy your moment in the sun.

[sepia_steel]

124. OMG

"'suicide' is when they actually reveal their freepery before going back to bed with their sister"

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

:yourock:

[Jo March]

126. Wow! That sister remark....that's just cold. LOL. nt

[katinmn]

47. Excellent post and might I add

We'd all be better off if we spent more time trying to educate the "great uninformed" rather than arguing with other DUers or preaching to the choir.

I agree with divvying up the chores. There's a lot to be done!

[ClassWarrior]

52. Exactly. Awesome, Arn.

NGU.

[Verve]

55. Ahhh! Dad! Do we hafta? LOL! Really good point! I'll try to behave.n/t

[Jack Bone]

60. nominated.....Kick }~

[Vidar]

62. Great post. Thanks.

[seito]

64. Thanks

Nothing like a dose of common sense and civility.

We are all on the same team, I think.

Thanks for the quote Arnheim

"A house divided against itself cannot stand." Abraham Lincoln

[PATRICK]

69. The division also is not about us at all

Left to our devices to conduct a missing political and national debate it is small wonder we have become an imaginative microcosm of the "show that might have been". The disengagement of the party from the fraud issue just about equals and is certainly in keeping with their Pollyanna approach to all other important campaign principles.

Guess who is missing in these two major concerns? The very leaders we hope to prop up, the self made clay pigeons of the Democratic leadership who should be offering both reform and direction. Instead we have what SHOULD be happening in those arcane circles of the loyal opposition boiling in public here and other places. Who is more in touch with the fraud revelations and the reforms and the plain common sense? Not the DNC who seem woefully impotent in most other crucial areas. Like good entrenched bureaucrats(temporarily) they dampen and divide by the vacuum or real leadership, not even bothering to lead from the rear.

They fear one thing more than Bush. Losing the corporate permission to exist and the dough. Our divisions are symptomatic of dealing with this frustration, even enmity toward mere sanity. While we conduct worthwhile debate on priorities or issues, panic sets in that this is all whistling in the dark, groping for that vital connection to the party, swimming toward a life raft of real politics that may not even exist. So the option of building or reforming the future is very much more daunting than anyone's particular, powerless, sponsorless ideas.

Sadly I would include many time honored service organizations who should know better but are locked into a weird status quo of wearing the right suit for the dark ceremonies of a rogue state.

And if WE can do this without suiciding or bickering like the regular Democratic party we will have achieved yet another milestone beyond the imagination or capability of the current party leadership organization. The goal of surpassing the old [party stumbling blocks in credibility and results is achievable.

[Jo March]

128. Patrick

"And if WE can do this without suiciding or bickering like the regular Democratic party we will have achieved yet another milestone beyond the imagination or capability of the current party leadership organization. "

Sometimes I truly think that we are the only ones who can get this done. It's sad but I believe that we can do this. I truly do.

[Raksha]

170. We're the only ones who can get this done...

...because for whatever reason or combination of reasons, we're the only ones who really WANT to get it done. It's scary sometimes to realize that we are literally ALL we've got.

[Jo March]

198. Which is why we have to link arms and walk as a group

We stand together. If we fall, then we pick each other up and keep walking.

[me b zola]

140. WOW

You of summed it up in a nutshell. If only the DNC knew that this is how so many of us feel about them, just how badly they have let us down, and the result that this has had not only on our party, but the nation as a whole. Thank you for sharing what so many of us feel.

As to the original post, put me in the 'me too' category, I've been thinking simular thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to articulately express a clear strategy to end the in-fighting, and make better use of our energy and talents.

[marions ghost]

144. "swimming toward a life raft of real politics that may not even exist"

--yes it feels like that, am smiling at this really big picture statement of yours patrick, but it's appropriate somehow. Yeah it's like we are swimming for life rafts here at DU after a shipwreck, severely stressed, pulling in different directions. We are way out at sea with no land in sight, looking for anything more promising on the horizon than this protracted state of disillusionment and disarray. Obviously we need to put this scattered energy into work, but not easy starting over. what we're looking for doesn't exactly seem to exist. Many of us are seeing the world with new eyes I think. we're going to have to direct our own rafts for awhile.

As u say patrick
"...the option of building or reforming the future is very much more daunting than anyone's particular, powerless, sponsorless ideas...
And if WE can do this without suiciding or bickering like the regular Democratic party we will have achieved yet another milestone beyond the imagination or capability of the current party leadership..."

Are we up to it? daunting is the word.

[greenmutha]

70. Excellent post!

Thanks for stopping the car and smackin' us upside the head with your logic, arnheim!

Count me in as one of the EFG crew. :toast:

[mattclearing]

72. This is a fantastic post. Good job.

Thanks for saying this. It needs to be said.

Perhaps we can can turn the circular firing squad into a firing line pointed in the right direction: them.

[suffragette]

74. "We are all on the same team"

And like all teams, each player has an important role.
I know I'm focusing on EFG now, but I'm glad others are working on the other fronts.

Here's to Team Democracy :toast:

[Jo March]

141. Me too. We only have so much time to get good candidates

to run - candidates who are committed to working against election fraud.

[suffragette]

180. Absolutely agree

So many people have fought so hard to gain the right to vote. We need candidates who will work to ensure these past battles weren't in vain.

[suziedemocrat]

77. Very good!

One of my favorite things about DU is that there is very little bickering, name calling and other nastiness. There is enough stress in the world without adding stress to blogs!

[marions ghost]

80. yes we are 2 pronged--

good point --"the war is won by strategically placing troops in different key areas." --the two perspectives each have value and are complimentary. And a third group might want to
straddle the two.

thanks arnheim for the timely blast

[Jo March]

149. Trust me, the two groups will merge

Give it a few months. We will have to work to get candidates who can look at our fraud proof and work against it. We need electable candidates, though.

I want to work on the election fraud issue. It is the most important thing to me right now. After we have made progress with that (documenting the fraud in a concise manner), then I am more than willing to start working on looking for candidates who will fight for election reform.

The two groups will come together. It is only a matter of time. In the meantime, there are those who will work in both groups.

:)

[cali]

81. I know your hearts in the right place

but I need to make a couple of points here, particularly as you invoked my name and placed me as a member of the FFE group. Would that life was that simple. I'm deeply concerned about the integrity of our elections, and I want to be involved with election reform. It's true that I don't believe the election was stolen, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe fraud took place, or that there wasn't voter suppression. If I argue against those who believe that the election was stolen and that there must be a refusal to certify, it's because I believe that such a route is counter-productive.

2006 may not be far off, but in Vermont I don't worry about the integrity of the vote and I'm certain that Bernie and Jeffords will be re-elected. Dems will continue to maintain hefty majorities in the house and senate. Should a good dem appear on the scene to run for gov, I'll certainly work towards getting that person elected. 2008 is too far off to work on.

I have gotten snark;y towards some folks. It gets my back up to see the words fascist or rabid thrown around. I apologize for my snarkiness and I'll try and tone it down. I won't promise to keep off any particular thread. If a thread interests me, and I have something to say, I'll say it. The vigorous exchange of ideas is integral to DU. What I have done, and will continue to do, is to stay off threads where people are planning ways to advance the vote fraud case. I haven't butted in on threads about marches or letter writing- unless it involved slurs against my representatives.

[Jo March]

87. You misunderstood - I didn't say don't go to a thread

I said don't go to a thread that you don't agree with and start putting the posters down for believing what they believe.

That works both ways.
:)

And if you disagree with a post, don't be negative. We all need to be respectful and that means that we shouldn't call anyone a fascist. :)

[femme.democratique]

150. cali isn't as "fair and balanced" as she makes herself out to be.

Based on my limited interaction with her, she doesn't seem to have a problem throwing insults, making catty remarks, and name-calling when it suits her purpose.

And I must say...you are allowed to have and express your opinion, don't ever stop. There are those of us who believe this is a crucial issue, yet you have shown no real respect for that. Frankly I don't care if you agree, but I do wonder- why even bother wasting time on these threads if you think this is all just a bunch of conspiracy nuts? Seriously, I would like to know what is to be gained by this. If thats the case and there is nothing to be seen or learned, then this will surely fizzle out right? Why not spend your time fixing the problems that you perceive in the Democratic party instead of trying to marginalize others?

I'll close with one point. If cali believes there was any level of election fraud (which she just admitted above), how does she believe these issues are ever going to be raised and addressed in the fascist society that controls the media? Does she believe her sainted representatives who-can-do-no-wrong will carry the torch? I doubt it. Come on, the congress doesn't even read most of the legislation that has been passed. The election fraud issue will die if we don't take action now. Not dealing with it now is a huge mistake.

[cali]

158. Look, I'm going to try and be civil here despite

your attack. I've repeatedly expressed my concerns regarding the integrity of our elections, and I post to express those, and other concerns. Anyone who wants to find out what my perspective is need only read the thread I started wherein I explained why I thought there was nothing to be gained from contesting the election, and why I felt such action could be detrimental. Just my opinion. Nor have I stated that those with a different point of view are all a bunch of nuts. I do think you may do more harm than good, and I've said so.

Finally, you're the one that called those with an opposing point of view rabid, and repeatedly tossed around the word fascist as if it were so much confetti. Admittedly, I responded in a snarky way. I'm sorry for that. It doesn't elevate the discourse.

[Jo March]

163. Saying that we may do more harm than good does not help

cali, you seem very intelligent and reasonable but you say that we are doing more harm than good and that is demeaning to us and our efforts.

Having said that, no one should call you names for disagreeing, either. That demeans you and does not elevate the discourse, as you so eloquently put it.

Having said that, I do want to point out that if you have concerns about the integrity of the elections but you think that contesting the election will gain us nothing, do you kind of see how we who do believe in election fraud might get a little frustrated with your posts?

[cali]

166. I understand your frustration

and I'm sure you understand mine. However, neither of us should use a feeling of frustration as a measure of whether or not an opinion is valid. If I believe a certain action is deleterious to a cause, don't I have an obligation to speak out? I'm sorry you view that as demeaning to your efforts. I understand that you believe passionately that this election is the fruit of fraud. I don't, though if evidence that is clear and convincing to me is presented, I'll hail you all as visionaries.

[Jo March]

177. Bravo, cali! We have just agreed to disagree politely

And neither one of us called the other a fascist!

We can all agree to disagree without being ugly or disruptive. We are all a team here. I am not asking for groupthink but for respect and cooperation.

:pals:

[Jo March]

162. We all have to express ourselves

or we'll explode.

Name calling does no good. It helps no one. I think that there is room enough for all of us here minus the catty remarks and name-calling.

femme.deocratique, I have come to look forward to your posts and hope that you post more. You seem to be a believer in fraud and a believer in doing something about it. :)

We will get fraud to the front and center of politics, by golly!!!

[Nothing Without Hope]

82. I seconded the nomination. This is important and well-said

For the record, I'm in the "EFG" group, since I believe that unless the fraud and suppression are addressed, elections are moot. So that gets my greater attention. (I do suggest different names for your two groups below, but I think that the identification is a very useful idea.)

As you point out, it's a good thing there are also people who are looking forward to further elections, because that will need attention and we are focused on the nearer term.

I think that if the "FFE" group would refrain from stating as fact that
1. there was not enough fraud and vote manipulation to make a difference in this election ("The Republicans won" is a variant of this), or
2. even if there was, we will never know it,
most of the EFG group members, certainly including myself, would feel less goaded. Our view, for the benefit of any cloistered individuals as yet unfamiliar with it, is that without aggressive investigation and pressure, how can they--or the rest of the country-- know? And without knowing, how can we take steps to be sure that the next election will be fair? We feel passionately about this, and that is not going to change. It is just too important in our view.

So if the FFE group would just talk about candidates and the non-fraud issues and stay away from saying those triggering statements, it would be much easier to pull together as we desperately need to without seeing red. Because, speaking for myself, I will still see red when I hear either of those two statements.

Perhaps we could come up with more easily remembered terms than EFG and FFE? How about "Fraud First" for EFG? And "Move On" for FFE? I kept forgetting which acronym was which.

The only reservation I have with your excellent post is that it if the two groups work separately and basically avoid each other's threads-- and I do see the logic in it -- then there will need to be some way that the "Fraud First" group can get concise updates on the fraud evidence to the "Move On" group. (The updates from the MoveOn group will be needed later on.) They don't need to suffer through every bit of discussion, but they do need to know the basics of what is going on. One possibility is to post "Fraud summary for Move-Ons" threads, in which summary articles like those by Fitrakis and his group at The Free Press or documents from Conyers' investigation are made available in a scream-free forum populated by other Move-Ons. They do need to keep up with this; I doubt any of them would claim that investigating the fraud and suppression is of no value at all.

And besides, they may change their minds when they see the evidence!
:evilgrin:

[Jo March]

97. No, no! I did not say that we need to avoid each other's threads

I meant that we need to be respectful and not go over to a thread that talks about election fraud just to scream that there was no fraud. See?

We all need to know what is up with the various efforts that are going on. We just don't need to be disruptive.

We could name each group according to the will of the people. Maybe we could have the Admins conduct a poll for the names. Maybe we don't even have names! :) We just need to get some teamwork going here and to do that, we have to have groundrules and a sense of cooperation.

:)

[Nothing Without Hope]

108. Bless your heart! (I'm from Texas.) We'll work it out

I do think it would be useful to have threads where articles or documents like official letters or lists of evidence are posted for "Move-Ons" to peruse in comfort. We "Fraud-Firsts" may like to go after every nuance and bit of material, but the other guys only need to see the bottom lines and summaries so they can keep up with major developments.

And I totally agree about choosing group names from polls or some other "will of the people" sort of approach. Not only will good names be chosen that way, but participating in the process will be a therapeutic action as well.

I'm not a screamer; I am not going to call someone names because they disagree with me. I do feel VERY strongly about the vital importance of aggressively going after the fraud and suppression NOW. But as long as someone doesn't stand in front of me talking about how I should just get over it, nobody's going to get hurt!

Aiding in this wise effort of yours is the fact that although we like to argue around here, we generally do try to keep open minds and some degree of adult behavior. If a division like this were to turn up in the freepers' nasty little camp, they'd wipe each other out like the two races of orcs in that scene in LOTR III. Hmmm...lots of similarities to that scene now that I think of it...greed, violence, stupidity...

Best to you and to all of us. We have our work cut out for us.
:toast:

[nashville_brook]

85. for more on this see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x232406

we've got the power -- we are a MOVEMENT -- here's why (and how)

think of it as strategy 101.

[bush_is_wacko]

86. Excellent post! n/t

[Kota]

89. Good job!

I'm glad you spoke up. I hope it helps.

[garybeck]

90. BUT ISN'T THERE A THIRD GROUP?

What about people who want to focus on the future, realizing that the #1 issue for the future is ELECTION REFORM, because there's no way we can win next time unless we prevent this from happening again?

Or should I ask, is the future group is just about "reframing the democratic party", or election reform ?

[Jo March]

116. I truly believe that the two groups will merge together

as one. It will take a few months but it will happen. After the push for the 6th and the 20th stops, the Fraud First-ers will continue to work on the next phase which is election reform.

The Move Ons will continue to work on getting good candidates who will work for Progressive ideals including election reform.

See how that all flows back into the same pool? :)

[garybeck]

199. You're missing one step

impeachment

[bunny planet]

91. This is a great post. I have been guilty of snarking at the other camp and

you are right, it is counterproductive. I think we are all feeling pain and frustration and just venting all over the place.

How do you nominate a post, just kick it? I'd like to nominate yours.

Kick!:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[Jo March]

98. Thanks! To nominate, just go to the original post

and click the Nominate this Page link at the bottom left-hand corner of the post.

bunny planet, we're all frustrated and we all are lashing out. I do it too. :( It's just not getting us anywhere.

[bitchkitty]

99. Smooooooooooch!

I love ya!

[Jo March]

129. Right back atcha, bitchkitty! nt

[gotitans2]

101. Thank you for that post. eom

[Wilms]

102. Thank You.

Maybe post a thread like this 3 times a day.

Ya know, like medicine.

[Jo March]

130. Now drink it up. It's good for you! LOL nt

[Blue Christmas]

104. Great post - even though I'm new...

and even though I love DU, I have noticed in my short time here a certain amount of counterproductive infighting. But other than that, I have no complaints. :)

By the way, in the same spirit of that great Lincoln quote, there is a Native American saying that I am particularly fond of: "No tree has branches foolish enough to fight amongst themselves"

[Jo March]

132. I love that saying!

Welcome to DU, Blue Christmas. :hi:

[Blue Christmas]

179. thanks so much, arnheim

and not only do I feel privileged to be even a small part of the EFG, I also feel privileged to be a part of DU as a whole! Thanks again for the great post - I hope it will help us become even more productive than we've already been.

[AntiFascist]

111. What are they afraid of? nt

[Darkhawk32]

113. Great thread!!! I'm going to nominate this for front page thiggamajig! nt

[Jo March]

117. Aw, thanks!

I appreciate your nomination and you taking the time to read what I wrote.

[Darkhawk32]

171. You're welcome! :) n/t

[fooj]

114. DU'ERS THAT PLAY TOGETHER, STAY TOGETHER!!!

I couldn't agree more. We are all in this together and we CAN achieve our goals if we continue to pool our resources and work as a team! WELL SAID, ARNHEIM!!!



WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???:think: :think: :think:

[Jo March]

131. fooj, old buddy, old pal

What ARE they hiding???

[fooj]

154. Obviously something has got their panties in a twist...

...wonder what THAT might be?


WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???:think: :think: :think:

[Jo March]

159. Twisted panties are a might bit uncomfortable

You'd think that they'd come clean about what they are HIDING.

[fooj]

168. I'd have to agree, however, cowards fear the truth!

So they'll continue to lie to cover a lie to cover a lie to cover a lie...it's the nature of the beast. It takes true courage to tell the truth, especially when it is less than pleasant! Wedgies all around!


WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???:think: :think: :think:

[Jo March]

175. Wedgies all around! Hear! Hear! nt

[sepia_steel]

127. Good Goin' Arnheim. :)

[Jo March]

143. Thanks. I just want us to get things done

and stop all of this pointless arguing!!

[Firespirit]

133. You ROCK!

Much more civil and to-the-point than I would have been.

Nobody here (except the trolls) is an enemy. DAMN it, when ARE we liberals and progressives going to stop this infighting??

As an EFG'er, I will take your most excellent advice. I do have my opinion on candidates (<--*psst... points to avatar*), but since that's a long way off, for NOW, I'll be at work on what's more important to me.

*getting busy on a study of Southern Ohio*

:hi:

[Jo March]

145. Firespirit, you are most awesome

We aren't enemies yet some here act as though they hate the "others" How did this get to be an "us vs. them" kind of thing?

I have my opinion about candidates too but I will not go to someone's post who is talking about a potential candidate and start screaming to them about fraud. :) I'll just say that I like or dislike that candidate and keep fighting the fight against fraud.

:)

[keepthemhonest]

134. excellent post

let's call it the Arnhiem law. The new law of the land. hope it straightens everything out.

[Jo March]

146. *blush* I've never had my own law

Cool! :)

[pointsoflight]

137. Hey, we don't want a voice of reason 'round here.

:-)

[Jo March]

142. LOL! I will slip back into insanity. :) nt

[femme.democratique]

151. Great post, I agree 100%! eom

[m.standridge]

152. Yeah, there's too much friendly fire

[FreepFryer]

160. A lot of it

is less than friendly.

If the enemy wears our uniforms, do we consider them to have had a change of heart, or are they fifth columnists?

The dialogue, respect, blanketing and desire for disunity helps you pick out differing opinions from manipulative posts.

Don't fall for it! Believe in US!

[m.standridge]

167. sometimes I think there's a "thead within a thread" about what KIND

of Kerry victory--Popular vote or Electoral only.
I toy with this thing a lot: if we'd emphasized the idea earlier of a Kerry possible Electoral-only victory, would the ironic effect have been to encourage leading Dems--who might want to challenge Kerry for the nomination in 2008--to support the challenges re: Ohio?

On the other hand, the Popular vote thing, could be persuasive to the MSM. If they see that there is a huge "electorate" for Kerry out there that is very unhappy--as their attempts to discern this in recent weeks with various posts seems to suggest--they might be more interesting in taking a slightly longer view from the standpoint of consumer optimism for their advertising clients.

You know, the pre-election polls, often suggested to me this idea of a Kerry Electoral-only victory. Nationwide, the polls would sometimes show Kerry trailing, but leading in states needed to put him over in the College.

[sparky_in_ma]

153. Excellent post!

Have you considered mediating middle east peace talks?:)

So....do I get to keep my hat on and not get beat up here anymore?:tinfoilhat:

If we stay together we can beat them every time.

[Patsy Stone]

161. Thanks arnheim

You saved me a post!

:hi:

[hholli1]

164. This is a great post...

Remember the Democratic Primaries? We AAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL said that, "we support so and so, but will work for whoever the Democratic nominee is.

We did NOT whine and moan, "If it's so and so, I will not vote or support the candidate". It seem some of that is going on now with ultimatums on some people's party loyalty.

Walking lock step is indeed a difficult thing in such a big tent, diverse party. But this is the one thing Republicans do FABULOUSLY WELL. It is how they built coalitions.

I will now, henceforth, from now until the end of time, work for dems at the local level, for dems on the school board, on draft boards, and for dem judges. I will now make it my business to pay attention to local affiliations with progressive groups. I've been doing so via buying blue and such, but there is still more work to be done.

[livvy]

169. Great post! Thanks! Can we get some ice cream now?

Still can't help thinking about it though....Just what are they hiding?:think:

[Jo March]

183. No ice cream. I told you that I wasn't stopping for ice cream!

And

what

are

they

hiding??

[rumpel]

172. Thanks, well said. I have not posted much the past few days

even though I glanced through the posts, as I felt I can not contribute to many of the posts.
I thought I was on a fact finding mission and do what I can to help all of us brainstorm ways to combat the takeover of this government.
Our CA data collection thread has now crumbled away...and we would still have to go through tons of data. Meanwhile, all I see is everyone getting emotional, thread after thread. I want to find evidence which can not be disputed, and lots of it is burried in the data.

[Jo March]

184. Go to this site for a great document on fraud

http://www.bpac.info/

(Thanks, IndyOps)

I have been printing out the PDF document and handing it out. It is well organized and contains some great documentation of fraud.

Also, you can go to my site, www.domainofarnheim.com, and you'll find some good links there to fraud stuff.

Don't give up. If you believe that there was fraud, keep fighting to expose it.

[New Earth]

173. i think you and Generator get the

BEST POSTS OF THE DAY awards. :hi: :hug:

[Jo March]

185. Why, thank you, Faye.

I have a lot of respect for you. You seem to keep your head no matter how ugly the discourse gets. And it does get ugly. x(

[ConstitutionGuy]

176. Actually...

I make it a point to correct people when the attribute this aphorism to Lincoln. Yes, he used it in a speech but the principle was first annunciated by Jesus:

"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25

He was responding to a charge by the Pharasiees that he had relied on the power of the devil to cast out a demon.

[Jo March]

186. Yes, but I actually was quoting Lincoln

who was quoting Jesus. ;)

[madison2000]

181. Thank you arnheim for a constructive suggestion

I'm clearly EFG and yes there is a lot of tension in this forum.

I've been leaving when the bickering starts to go hang out in the DU Lounge!

There have been a few posts in there about how "scary" the other forums are, so hopefully it will become a little easier for the newer folks at DU to join in this forum and ask a question without fearing their heads will be ripped off!

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[Jo March]

187. Any newbie shouldn't feel afraid to go to other forums

Dang it! That is so upsetting. We need more supporters, not less. And I don't just mean supporters for fighting fraud. We need more Democrats!!!

x(

[kitkat65]

182. I'm definitely in the FFE group

and have been wanting to kick some ass for over a month now.

:kick:

[Jo March]

188. I say, "Kick that ass!"

Kick it, I say!!!!

[Turn CO Blue]

190. Thanks for posting. I totally agree with you!

It is going to take both camps of "strategery" to get decent people in office.

Believe it or not, I actually want to do my fair share in both camps - but I lean toward EFG right now.

Come 2006 I will do MORE than my fair share for the FFE camp and our candidates!

__________________________________________
Thanks, Dad for pulling over. Are we theeerrre yet?

[Jo March]

200. I want to do my fair share as well

I am just of the opinion that if we don't fight this fraud, 2006 will be an exercise in futility. :(

We must keep working and calling and faxing and emailing. We have to.

And we are most certainly NOT there yet!! :evilgrin:

[lonestarnot]

191. One question to those FFE guys...If election occurrred in mass how gona

have FFE?

[Bubblie]

195. Thank you!

Great post and thanks for reminding us that were all on the same team. We need to continue to work together...

[demnan]

201. I'm sorry

I won't fight but I believe it is wrong to get people's hopes up. And I've demonstrated over the election fraud, and intend to do so tomorrow. I just don't think believing something that will not come true is a healthy practice. But I won't snip at anyone on this board, give me leave, however to have an occasional snip at Kerry.

[ntwkgirl]

202. By George! I think you've got it!

Not only do we NEED each other, we NEED to get organized. The EFGs and the FFEs and all the other DEMs need to join forces. Nothing against all the independent orgs that have accomplished so much...but imagine if there was a conglomerate effort...it's what we're up against. We really do have the majority, but we need to be UNITED. I'm not sure how to get this done but I think the indy media like rawstory and truthout, air america, and radio left...this is the way to go. We literally have to build our own private underground government...and before you know it...it won't be underground.

Here's a little hope for the future:
I was in the store with my 5-year-old daughter and someone said something about the President and she said "The President is Bush, but he cheated and stole the votes. I wouldn't ever play with him because I don't play with cheaters."

They're like little sponges, I tell ya!

[shiina]

204. kick

[berniew1]

206. Documentation of vote machine fraud & suppression sufficient for challange

There was widespread and systematic voter suppression of minority voters, dirty tricks, vote machine fraud, and other vote manipulation in Ohio, New Mexico, and Florida- that was of magnitude enough to call in question who won those states.

http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html
http://www.flcv.com/EIRSFla.html
http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19
http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexicoGeneralElection.pdf
http://www.flcv.com/bernalil.html
etc.

and also similar patterns in other states where the suppression and fraud did not change the election results including vote machine fraud in Calif., Pennsylvania, Washington, Texas, etc.
http://www.flcv.com/orangets.html
http://www.flcv.com/snohomish.html
http://www.flcv.com/mercerco.html
etc.

(the voter suppression of minorities in Mercer County is the worst I've ever seen-followup needed)

The unethical and illegal actions were so systematic and widespread that this cannot be allowed to continue uninvestigated and unpunished. There was a huge amount of obvious malfeasance that should be investigated and dealt with.

[Left coast liberal]

207. Well stated! And, just in time. It was getting ugly! Thanks n/t