Are we falling into a Karl Rove trap?

[ShinerTX]

All the MSM stories say that nothing will change, that Harry Reid is not happy with Boxer, and the NYTimes said the GOP is eager for it to happen. The gist of all the stories doesn't seem to be about the fraud--it's about the Dems being sore losers and how the GOP is going to enjoy saying that.

I just got really nervous--are we falling into a Karl Rove trap? With the GOP controlling both houses, they will control the debate. Are they going to spend 2 hours blasting the Democratic party for being a sore loser party who gives in to crazy people on the fringe? Is this going to backfire and make up look stupid? It will if our people don't have a full chance to air their case, and if they're not sharp in putting it in a format that people can understand it. Will the only clips that we see on the news tonight be the ones of GOP people blasting the "sore losers"?

What if this is all a set-up?

[meganmonkey]

1. Read this, time will tell...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x246218

[sportndandy]

2. sounds like panic on their part

so I say

sticks and stones may break my bones
but disenfranchisement is nothing to joke about

[cal04]

3. sore losers, like those in Washington who are

Demanding a new election
It's ok for them and not us. Let's remind them of that today on the floor

[pgh_dem]

43. You know... that would be a pretty cool retort

Not to say, blah blah shoe on the other foot.
But actually to stand up and support a contest in Washington gov race.
Say, "Hell yeah, the republicans are right! If there's any reason to doubt the results of an election, it needs to be contested, investigated, and redone if necessary in order to properly ascertain the will of the voters!"
Then listen to the sound of 55 jaws dropping.

[henslee]

4. For what? Fighting disenfranchisement? Advocating paper trails?

Nothing wrong with sticking up for these things. And don'tgive Rove som much credit. He is not the Wizard of Oz.

[merh]

39. How about a constitutional right to vote and have votes counted!

:thumbsup:

[metisnation]

5. without the debate

democracy is dead. Stupid Republicans don't understand that in order for us to have free and democratic elections in Iraq we must first have free transparent democratic elections in the US. This is not about winning and more about our right to vote.


:dem:

[liam97]

10. Don't give Karl Rove

so much power - this is real stuff, irrespective of the outcome

[scottxyz]

31. This is not about winning and more about our right to vote.

This is not about winning and more about our right to vote.

What metisnation said. This should be our motto.

Remember "It's not the about the sex - it's about the lying"?

Same thing applies here.

This is not about winning and more about our right to vote.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

6. To be completely clear on that theory:

Fuck that. At some point, people MUST stand up for what is good, right, true and ethical. That is why they are in Congress. Not for image massaging and career development.

We need to poke Karl Rove in the eye at least once a day, if not many more times a day. Constantly and with malice aforethought.

On edit: For extra measure, if Rove is Bush's Brain, we need to make a long, long project out of Rove's medulla oblongata: Grover Norquist. Go straight after him, dig deep on him and his tactics and practices and cut the prick off at the knees. Or higher.

[flyarm]

42. i would go ....

a little higher..like bobbet higher!..

fly

[FogerRox]

NY Times---LOL if they said it aint rue--LOL

The chance that Bush will be appointed on 2000 and again in 2004 is just TOOOOOO freakin perfect.

[tanyev]

7. I don't see where we have anything

left to lose.

[Not_Giving_Up]

8. It puts the objection on the record

Even if it does nothing else, it will get attention now. All of those people who are walking around with buckets over their heads might just hear about this. After all, CNN has picked it up now. It will tarnish the reputation of Bush, it will make more people question him.

:hi: To a fellow Texan!

[bunny planet]

9. The trap would be standing by and letting them get away with stealing

another election without standing up against it. Defending the Constitution is not falling into a trap.

[demo dutch]

11. You must continue to contact your senators, we can not let her stand

alone and be made into a freakshow!

[Twist_U_Up]

12. First..........

they ignore you

then they laugh at you

then they fight you

then you win.

[helderheid]

15. I was just thinking

of that quote. :) Is this the part where we win? ;) :)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. Of course we fell into a trap.

The media spins it such that no matter what we do, it was ALWAYS in Rove's masterplan.

Total bullshit and lies, so far as I'm concerned.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

22. Yeah. We thought "Mission Accomplished" photo op was a 'trap'

ya' see, we thought we could make fun of George for playing flight suit boy, but little did we know that it was just a big set-up to make Kerry look bad for going to Vietnam and getting 3 purple hearts and a Silver Star and a Bronze Star. 'ya see Kerry was lying about all that, it wasn't on film like Bush on the carrier. We KNOW Bush was on the carrier, he was telling the truth! but Kerry was LYING!

[genieroze]

14. No Rove trap, he's messing himself right now. IMHO.

I really don't think it will prevent the * coronation but it will bring this election scam into the public light. We need to put an end to this BS now.

[txindy]

16. There's only one way that trap would have worked

And that's if Kerry were the one to stand up in Congress. That's why it was vital that he not be the Senator to challenge.

The neocons and their lackeys are spewing about this because they're afraid. Period.

[bleever]

50. Ding ding ding!

Give that lady another prize!

(A housebroken one, please.)

[txindy]

64. LOL! That would be nice.

The hearth is still kind of a mess from the 'flyovers'. ;)

I'm having a great day today. Boxer and Tubbs Jones were both awesome in their statements and they are handling the questions extremely well. I can't wait for the rest of the day to unfold.

Watch out for hysterical winged creatures, though. They're flying low today and threatening bodily harm to those of us who believe in truth. Fine by me. Pretty soon, this will be the end result of their futile efforts:


I say let them keep slamming into walls.

:evilgrin:

[bleever]

67. LOL! And shoot, they're dumb enough to fly

into picture windows!

A good day today.

[oldtime dfl_er]

17. A setup for what?

Our democracy is broken, what more can they do to it? Both houses of Congress, the judiciary, the executive branch and the press are all owned. If you and I have any voice at all, any say in anything at all, it is through the few -- the very VERY few -- elected officials with any courage, with any balls, with any principles higher than the will to make a buck. If it's a setup I don't give a damn. There's nothing to lose at this point.

Soon we will be taking to the streets, where all revolutions begin.

[Coexist]

23. I just visited the freepers

they are all gearing up to "Daschle" the Repub that stands up. Oyyy:crazy:

[drummer55]

18. REFRAME

stop looking at it from the point of view of the winner or the loser.

Look at it from the point of view of the voter!

Any challenge is a success! The MSM can not ignore this historic event. All of our collective evidence will now be spotlighted by this event!





"Truth is by nature self-evident. As soon as you remove the cobwebs of ignorance that surround it, it shines clear." M. Ghandi

[liberalnurse]

19. Don't loose any sleep on this.

We need to stop thinking what Rove is thinking....it has got us now where fast. We just need to speak up and support democracy, civil rights and be Democrats. "F" rove and the horse he rode in on.

[goclark]

35. Right, TRUTH is our mission, not ROVE

The rightwing nuts sure know how to scare the pants off og people.
They don't scare me.

Think of them as some no good bullies on a school yard. Can they ruin your playtime, yes they can. Can they change your values that your parents taught you, NO!

The TRUTH can always set you FREE!

[bigendian]

20. That's nuts!

When respectful dissent is considered falling into a trap then the trap is already sprung.
Let's all just sit quiet and maybe the fascists will leave us alone.

[buddysmellgood]

21. Sons and daughter of democracy, of Du, patriots! I see in your eyes

the same fear that would take the heart of me.
A day may come when the courage of America fails…. When we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship.
But it is not this day.
An hour of blackboxes and shattered shields when the age of Men comes crashing down.
But it is not this day.

This day we fight!

[noamnety]

24. not a trap

Just the only way they know to counter legit criticism.

Kerry says we aren't in Iraq for the right reasons? What does he know, he wasn't wounded seriously enough in Vietnam.

Conyers says we deliberately didn't give blacks enough voting machines? Why listen to him, one of his staffers doesn't have a paper trail showing what happened to a frozen turkey.

Sandy Berger, Dan Rather, on and on and on. Attack the attacker. Why would this be any different? I don't expect them to discuss the fraud, I expect them to attack the dems. And so what, they'd be doing that anyway at the first excuse they found.

[Cocoa]

25. nah

no offense, but that's silly.

[ShinerTX]

57. I don't think it's silly.

Given the complete lack of coverage on all the cable networks today, I think it's a pretty realistic worry. If all the see are soundbytes from pro-election supporters, then we lose the PR battle.

[farmbo]

26. Slap! Slap!Slap! Good God.... Get a hold of yourself, man!

I seriously doubt that Rove is sitting in his lair pulling Barbara Boxer's lever to challenge the Ohio electoral delegation; thus giving her a national spotlight to shine-- for the very first time-- on creepy things like the Warren County Terror Lock down and Triad's recount cheat sheet.

Chill man. Relax.

Sit back and watch History.

[Chili]

27. fuck Karl Rove

I stand with the people who stood in the rain and cold for 4 and 6 and 8 and 10 and 12 hours... and you know what they would say?

FUCK KARL ROVE.

It's about backing THEM. I don't give a shit WHAT Republicans say. They can scream like the spoiled bullies they want 'SORE LOSERS!' 'til their little red pin heads explode in a mass of pus. I don't care. Fuck them. I'm backing my people, our BASE.

[iconoclastNYC]

28. Exactly! Reframe!

We are the white nights forcing our complacent and cowed Democratic leadership to face the facts: democracy has been hijaacked and it must be addressed.

This isn't a Rove trap.

The NYTime is part of the corporate machine, they have annual revenue in the Billions. They help manufacturer the false, pro-corporate national consensus that says that clean elections are not needed or desirable. Centrism will not get us anywhere. Clinton didn't win by being centrist, that is a lie.

Repeat after me: "Shame on Republicans for not joining us in highlighting the very distubing problems with the Ohio election. Shame on Republicans for resorting to political attacks to cover up the laws that were broken by partisan activist on thier side"

[emulatorloo]

29. That pudgy pasty CRIMINAL needs to go to Prison for fraud

hopefully this is the first step in that process.

[No Exit]

30. All a set-up? Are you kidding??

And why do people attribute all this power to that fat pud, Rove? Yes, he's accomplished lots of things through talent--but his biography shows that he will cheat without batting an eye. To me, this makes all his accomplishments suspect.

The GOP will control the debate?? Not among real people, they won't! I'm in a "red" state, and there are plenty of people who are not liberals, not even democrats, who are EXTREMELY dissatisfied and disgusted with this administration.

The congressional repukes are simply putting on a brave front when they say they "look forward to it". I know bullshit when I hear it.

The people who follow their own minds and hearts, rather than following worries about what others will think of them (such as "sore loserman") are the people who will win. I plan to be one of them. Your post doesn't scare me.

[moggie12]

32. Depends in eloquence/"reasonableness" of Boxer etc.

I was one who posted a message on DU saying this was a bad idea, but if Boxer and the others will make eloquent, reasoned statements focusing on principle I think it's okay to do, even good, heck, maybe even great. I reacted negatively to global statements like "This election was stolen!" and "Look at the exit polls, they prove everything!". If Boxer et all keep their objections focused on things we can prove (e.g., people having to stand for 3 hours on line), I'm all for it. I'd like to see the election reform issue kept on a burner and if Barbara Boxer, who I admire, thinks this is how to do it, more power to her.

[anaxarchos]

33. Lemme get this straight...

Some Republican gets up in Congress to dismiss virtually the entire Black membership plus others who are clearly taking a risk for Democracy whatever their impugned motives may be. He doesn't bother to read a 100 page report full of details about Ohio but takes Sean Hannity's word that anyone who would challenge the vote must be a "nut job". The same guy has a 75% chance of having just re-affirmed that an invisible man with a white beard who lives in the sky told him, personally, not to let gay people get married.

How is this bad?

Weren't the ranks on election fraud pretty thin a few weeks ago? Isn't it being discussed in Congress now (even if "There is no chance that the election outcome...", quack, quack, quack).

Congratulations, all.

[Snivi Yllom]

34. not a setup if you walk into it

This is one of my major misgivings about this action. The negative press will be astounding. And I think it's going to drown out anya ttention on election reform.

[txindy]

49. "Progress depends on not repeating the past."

"If we are to make progress, we must not repeat history but make new history." - Ghandhi

[pgh_dem]

51. The current attention on election reform could be drowned out

by a fly passing gas.

[VTGold]

36. We have to follow our instincts...

As Cheney indicated to my Senator Leahy on the floor of the Senate....

Karl Rove can go interfere with himself (cleaned it up)

[Amaryllis]

37. THere are enough people smart enough to know congresspeople don't

just put their careers on the line for nothing.

[merh]

38. They are spinning out of fear!

No rove trap - just the real deal.

[Alizaryn]

40. All we can do is what is right, and we know that this is the right

step to take. Better to be called silly names then to be swept under the rug AGAIN.

[fooj]

41. WE'RE NOT SORE LOSERS! WE'RE SORE WINNERS!

The GOP will be portrayed today as the sore losers! Cheating, Lying, Manipulating SORE LOSERS!!! Rove and Co. can BLOW ME! Can you say 2- term illegitimate presidency! Delicious!

[yojon]

44. Option 1: Protest

Option 2: Drop our pants and bend over.


Cant think of any other options right now.. can you?

[rumpel]

45. Option 2. Write Letters to Editors and TV news producers!

[katinmn]

46. Not at all. This is Rove's worst nightmare!

[joevoter]

47. Keep saying it - we are not sore losers we are sore winners

[FreepFryer]

48. The only thing Rove cannot subvert is populist action. And we're doing it

[AmerDem]

52. This should be locked, original poster flew the coop!

alert

[ShinerTX]

53. Flew the coop?

What does that mean?

[AmerDem]

62. It means up until my post you never responded to your own thread

That's not hard to understand is it? You bring up a topic that really has nothing to back it up and don't give consideration to discuss the points you start?

nuff said

[ShinerTX]

65. What the hell does that mean?

I've given plenty of consideration to the things being said--I'm also at work right now and can't always respond right away (some of us have jobs here!). Most people disagree with me, and that doesn't bother me because it's most likely true that it isn't going to backfire all that bad. But it's something we need to be careful of.

Here are my concerns:

(1) We don't have a united voice from the Democratic Party on this--there will probably be some Democratic Senators who will speak out against this during the debate. That means we're approaching weakly.

(2) The GOP will go full force at us, and they will spin the hell out of this to try to make us look bad.

(3) The media is on the GOP's side in this matter--they've been stonewalling the issue for two months now. They're not going to change their mind on that, I think.

The combo of these three things COULD lead to a PR blunder IF we don't handle it right. You know that Rove will jump on it if he senses an advantage.

[dbonds]

54. Just because they respond doesn't mean its a trap.

This is our best course of action, of course they will counter.

[Vidar]

55. Life is a rovian trap. I'd rather go down fighting.

[ShinerTX]

56. I'm just raising the question.

You always have to watch your flank, right? It always seems that the media spins against us. I've been watching CNN all morning and they have barely mentioned it. The silence makes me nervous.

[smartone]

61. one worry

i worry that somehow this objection will effect the Republican challege of Washington Govenor race.

[ShinerTX]

63. That's one of my worries, too.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hippiegranny]

59. what is the alternative?

Roll over and play dead to the knowledge of a myriad of dirty tricks, just in case the omnipotent KKKarl Rove might be setting a trap? I don't think so!

[ShinerTX]

66. I'm not saying roll over. I'm saying be careful and smart. nt

[shiina]

60. No, they would much rather it looked like the election went smooth

The best scenario for them is that everyone believes everything went great and there were no problems and objections. They can call us whatever they want, but I think a lot of people, when faced with the facts, will have to admit that SOMETHING happened in Ohio. That's a huge step. It will make it a lot easier for Dems to push through election reform...if everyone thought nothing went wrong this time, there's no way we could get any attention for this issue.

[Debbie13]

68. Well, of course, the GOP control, they've stollen those votes as well

and put their people in power.

The Democratic Party has to DEMAND that they paperless machines are history in the next election.