Kerry, the stalking horse ?? read this:

[Pallas180]

http://www.blackcommentator.com/112/112_cover_election.html


"The vaunted legions of Democratic lawyers that were supposed to descend on Ohio and Florida to tear apart the rigged systems of electoral apartheid were told to stand down on Tuesday night. PBS News Hour’s Margaret Warner told viewers that Kerry’s legal team advocated a “scorched earth” policy to challenge the crooked system until it screamed – a result Democratic troops would have cheered.

Kerry overruled his lawyers, to make a false peace with the Pirates."


We been suckered.

[TheKingfish]

1. Even if he didn't think he could win

He should still fight for every vote. Make these states get there shit together for next time.

[Pallas180]

4. trojan horse.

yeah, he promised to fight.

He didnt tell us he would fight for 30 seconds and then give in.

[LisaL]

15. They have been asking us for money promising us a fight.

"We will not let 2000 be repeated" they said.
We got no fight, not even a little whimper.

[puddycat]

46. I gave them EVERY dime I had to spare. And now they won't even fight.

we've been had.

[Delphinus]

48. I agree, Puddycat.

They called me and e-mailed me I don't know how many times, asking for just a little more. I helped them instead of keeping it locally.

[puddycat]

49. I'm hoping that they are fighting behind the scenes, though.

I'm hoping that we haven't been "had" and that the Democratic leadership have another plan. It just may be that they are planning something big. I hope so, and I pray they are.

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

28. Hell yes - make election tampering an issue

Most americans don't even know there's a problem here. Everyone should read the greg palast article from thursday.

[BayStateBoy]

52. Exactly, but Kerry is a Quitter not a Stalking Horse

[Eric J in MN]

54. Exacttly. Sue any precinct with 10 hour lines to force them to

have more polling booths in 2006.

[BayStateBoy]

62. Kerry is the Dead Horse, not the Stalking Horse

[w13rd0]

2. So if we prove fraud, and get to haul them all off to jail...

...can we like, just pick a new ticket and have a do-over? The GOP can run Alan Keyes. He's consistently loony.

[bloom]

3. What if we found enough blue votes

and the electoral college voted in whoever they thought deserved it?

Might be Kerry, might be Gore, might be Edwards.... it could be up for grabs.

:shrug:

[Onlooker]

5. This is why we don't want a moderate

Moderates are unwilling to fight. They're weak-kneed at the wrong time. People to the left and obviously the right are much tougher and more willing to fight for what they believe.

[Pallas180]

10. Ok. was he a stalking horse - a phony competititor to make the election

look real - ?

or why did he not fight after he promised to???

after his own legal advisers said "scorched earth"

fuck kerry

[Amy6627]

16. We Were Duped!

I think you hit it on the head. It was a fake election. We have not lived in a democracy since Clinton. There will never be a fair election again. However we fight and organize they just make the results what they want. The Christian Reconstructionists are here to stay. We do not have a constitution any more see "Unconstitutional", it is a great film. I think I am going to stop all activites with any policial groups. I don't want to be labeled an enemy combatent, and be wisked away in the middle of the night. I know, I know I sound nuts! But I do not put anything past these people and their followers are just like those who followed Hitler in the 1930's. They are all just goose-steppin' and drinkin' the koolaid!

[Pallas180]

19. Have to say, AMY, I agree.

sad

[timtom]

61. I disagree.

"We have not lived in a democracy since Clinton."

I feel we haven't lived in a democracy since Carter.

I voted for Clinton, but I have been forever curious as to why he even deigned to answer any questions concerning Monica Lewinsky. What in the hell did that have to do with Whitewater?

[ever_green]

24. yep. let's get a fighter next time

[progressivebydesign]

38. Clinton is a moderate.. he is THE last dog standing. ALWAYS. n/t

[indigobusiness]

6. He can't lead the fight

but the fight will go on.

[billbuckhead]

7. I'm starting to agree

[BayStateBoy]

8. Kerry's Stupid. You Can't Make Peace with the Devil

We only sold the soul of America

[Democat]

9. "Scrorched earth" is the only way to go against Bush, he does the same!

They don't just want to win, they want to destroy the left. If they would have lost, they would have done everything in their power to undermine Kerry. We did the opposite - Clinton and Kerry are telling us to support Bush and give him another chance and let's not fucking "whine".

Democrats can't start winning until they learn how the game is played. It is not played by being "nice" to the people who want to destroy you.

[Pallas180]

11. Clue . There is no democratic party. There is one party now.

and I would not ever ever work for a democrat again.

the whole thing is a sham

voting is now a sham.

Good bye to democracy and the America you used to know.

And I blame Kerry. And the democratic party......always putting up a centrist.....can't win if you put up someone to the left they said...
and that's why we have no democratic party and why we dont win...who want repugnant lite, when you can have the real bastids.

[IdaBriggs]

12. Don't give up yet, Pallas. I'm still working on it! nt

[msongs]

32. thanks, but is KERRY working on it????????????????

if not good riddance to him

[sabbat hunter]

17. hate to tell you

But Bill Clinton was a centrist and he won twice. Jimmy Carter was pretty much a centrist too and he won in 1976.
the real problem is large swaths of the country will not vote for anyone from the northeast, no matter what their political beliefs.


peace
david
:hippie:

[Pallas180]

37. Bill Clinton invented the democratic centrism, and since he is

considered the greatest politician and orator of our generation if not
century - he could get away with it. Bill tried to appease the repugnants which they considered childish and a sign of weakness. Additionally since he refused to attack Iraq as written to him in 1996 by the Neocons including Dick Cheney and Wolfowitz, and Bill Kristol...they thought they could get rid of him by ruining him legally...a form of blackmail. One has to give Bill credit for having the emotional and mental stamina to hold up against that solid wall of attack dogs.

Since 1996 the neocons have wanted to attack Iraq for its oil, not its
weapons of mass destruction excuse, and because Iraq gives entree to
Iran and Iran gives entree to the Persian Gulf and the Caspian Sea....
Oil and transport of oil.

That is what the war is about..Caspian Sea Oil and its transport both East and West...obtaining it for private companies, throught the use of American boys and girls inthe army being used for private oil business, and protecting the shipping pipelines at the expense of American boys and girls; lives and the inhabitants of the lands under which the oil lies.

stupid, not knowing history and unable to read, has put us in a "crusade" against 1.5 billion,,,,,that's BILLION Arabs

I hadn't noticed Carter being a centrist at all.

[tinanator]

55. love telling you LOOK AT THIS "ELECTION"!

your hypothesis is ludicrous. Are you saying no one from MASS can be president?
bullshit.
centrism is not the path.

[thinkingwoman]

20. pallas, I'm starting to share your opinion

I have voted in every election since I turned 18 (pushing 40 now) but I don't know if I'll ever vote again. What is the point?

[donkeyotay]

13. I agree with the posts on this thread

People are holding on to a longshot hope that this is just a strategy, but it looks like Kerry betrayed us. The truth will come out soon enough, but for democrats to be telling us to stop whining and move on ????

I don't think so. No justice, no peace. And probably no democratic party either... along with no nation and no hope.

[Pallas180]

21. Unless Kerry, his family, or those close to him were threatened with

physical harm....there IS no excuse...and if that threat was made
we should be told...and the perpetrators jailed.

[lancdem]

14. It is disappointing

but maybe Kerry realized he wasn't in the relatively strong position Gore was in 2000 because Kerry was trailing in the popular vote.

[ethereal]

68. lancedem

you posit that kerry was trailing in the popular vote, but who the hell knows with evidence popping up every hour that machines made *errors*. From the turnout at the polls and the huge flock of mainstream conservatives who fled the sinking ship of this administration's continuous mistakes to the polls that matched within .1 percent in states that DIDN'T have electronic voting, I'd be willing to wager that Kerry won the popular vote, too.

[liberalitch]

18. I would not have conceded until every provisional ballot was counted...

1) Even if it didn't make a difference those voters would feel counted
2) What if.....

[Pallas180]

22. Maybe Kerry doesnt want to be Pres - he would walk away for

space alone....that;s fine. He wasn't my first choice anyway.

If we could reverse it, and Kerry would abdicate, maybe Edwards will
be President. I'll take that smart thinker and fast talker any day of the week as Prez

[HappinessPie]

26. That's what I think. I'm really starting to think perhaps he realized

that making Bush clean up his own messes was going to be better for the downfall of the extreme right than his getting into office and not being able to change things as much as we'd all hoped, which could spell doom for the Democrats.

They would have been able to blame EVERYTHING on him, and you know they would have, even things that were MonkeyAss's fault.

[sadiesworld]

47. Edwards is a DLCer in populist clothing.

[Carolab]

23. That sucks BUT

there are things to consider:

1. OUR VOTES.
2. Fixing the system.
3. If there is fraud, we don't have to accept the results. In other words, the election is null and void.

[cubsfan forever]

25. I would be a little cautious

with attributing absolute corroboration from one source. That particular set of commentators may have their own axe to grind.
PBS, especially, has been running as fast to the right as their corporate sponsors will take them. Margaret Warner is hardly a friend of Dems. Take this with a few bags of salt.

Professor 2

[glitch]

34. I would believe the opposite of what Margaret Warner says.

If I could still stand to listen to her.

[cubsfan forever]

58. You and me both! n/t

Professor 2

[wrate]

27. What is H. Dean saying about all of this? He has to be the most

leftist Democrat with power. Is he asking Democrats to roll over too?
What, if any, is his take on what happened on Nov 2?

[DURHAM D]

29. Read your post in the Elizabeth Edwards thread and come here

to tell you how awful it was. What a diatribe. So utterly inappropriate. Shame on you. Go away.

[Pallas180]

30. Durham, I'm not ashamed. I worked to exhaustion for these people, and they

made promises to me and to the American people.

They encouraged me to work hard for them to physical exhaustion, , contribute as much as I could, and knock myself out for them...only to leave the democrats including me twisting in the wind - WITH NO EXPLANATION.

And what did you do other than sit on your derriere ?

Since I am a prolific poster and researcher here, and I notice you are
what may be called a "newbie"...YOUR comments are utterly inappropriate.

I am ashamed of nothing.

And next time you tell me or anyone else voicing an opinion here to go away, I'll ask to have you removed.

Got it? Good. Good bye.

[DURHAM D]

31. You want me removed because you act inappropriately.

I see you want the good girl premium for somehow sacrificing more than all others.

I respect your opinions and your passion but I was stunned at the location of the comments.

[Pallas180]

39. BTW. This is still America for a little while longer...and we still may

have Freedom of Speech as promised inthe first amendment ---- for a
little while longer...say, maybe two months....

[Ladyhawk]

41. Gotta agree with your assessment of Kerry...I feel screwed. nt

[Bridget Burke]

42. Pallas the Titan? Husband of Styx?

Or Pallas Athene, with her mighty Aegis of Many Posts?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

33. Big, big problem with this dumb ass premise

is that if Bush and Kerry are one in the same then they are interchangeable as the figure head for the supposed syndicate they are members of. No?

[ORprogressive]

35. one and the same....

I just remembered they were both Skull & Crossbones...

putting on my tinfoil hat now. ;-)

[Pallas180]

36. No. the premise of a stalking horse is to make the appearance

of a race.

One horse is not interchangeable with another

[AliceWonderland]

40. Pallas, I tend to agree

Kerry and his team had all the information we had (and even more, no doubt), and it's clear that at the very least, a vigorous investigation into the electoral process was/is needed. And not just in Florida and Ohio, either.

They knew what happened last time. They knew what happened this time. They knew what Bush is capable of, and Kerry concedes? Delivers the country to that cabal, with troups on the edge of a bloodbath in Fallujah, the debt ceiling about to be raised, etc? How could anyone
think you could unite with people like this, make peace with them? That's not unity, that's allowing a coup. I repeat, that is allowing a coup.

Stalking horse. Yep.

[anamandujano]

43. Check out this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x25999

I've never been to the Kerry site. People on the thread say that this link has been left up and others taken down.

Wonder what they're up to.

The absolutely worst way to look at it, especially if one agrees with the premise of this thread (the one we're in now) is to think that they want to embrace the movement like the repbublican representatives did in Florida.

The results produced an extremely unreadable article that proclaimed that Bush won no matter how you counted the votes. Buried inside it said that more people intended to, or wanted to vote for Gore. Anytime one gets into a debate about 2000, the repukes produce this article.

Just some paranoid thoughts. I'm not saying that I think this is what's going on.

[sherilocks]

44. I agree with Margaret Warner in every way

I have spent the last few days, since John Edward's we will count every vote speech and John Kerry's dismal concession speech, trying to sort out my feelings.

I was angry in 2000, but I am beyond angry now. How could Kerry abdicate HIS responsibility to all of us and just walk away?

It was clear that the repugs were going to use any and every trick in the book to win. The Democratic fight back team was in place. And the spineless bastard walks away from the fight. I have been waiting for some logical explanation, and none is forthcoming. Kerry will slink back to his senate seat, and we are left with four more years of the worst administration in American history.

[baltodemvet]

53. I think this is silly. n/t

[robbedvoter]

45. First he won, then he rolled over. Opportunism

It wasn't a sinister plot - he really wanted to win - and did. But Kerry doesn't take pressure well (Florida electoral votes 2000 vote, IWR, VP decision). I knew he'd fold - just as he was mocking Gore (whom he had thrown out of the race - because "it was his turn") . .

He could become a leader now - even without chances of overturning the result. he would have conveyed to us that it's a lie that we are not the majority, and all that "values" BS. He is contemptible for welching on that

Famous last words:
"I have no time for those crying in your teacups for stolen elections"
John Kerry, campaign trail 2003

[NewYorkerfromMass]

51. Stop peddling that fake quote. Kerry never said that.

Where's your link?

[robbedvoter]

57. I'll go in my archives and will find it -

I had intense exghanges at the time on DU - which was going through dean vs kerry convulsions. I was still mourning Gore's leaving the race (cuz it was Kerry's turn - as Barney Frank said). I remember posting frantically - thread after thread "What makes kerry so sure he is immune?"
I'll go now look for the article and post a thread on it - since you asked.

[robbedvoter]

64. Exact quote - sorry I missed "get over it":

Famous last words
He is impatient with Democratic oratory about the "stolen" election.
"Stop crying in your teacups, It isn't going to
change. Get over it."

John Kerry, campaign July2003
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/129019_joel02.html


Makes sense. Mike Papantonio on Ring of Fire was one of the lawyers on the tarmac to Ohio that night, recalled because "some elements in the party thought bwe'd look like crybabies"
As his co-host Reno made the point of the importance of the truth, he told her "Get over it" about 10 times. Reno - bless her heart - REFUSED.

[Democat]

59. Here is a link to the quote

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x26516

[lojasmo]

50. This has always been my suspicion

Kerry was placed at the front to lose the race.

We're screwed.

Hillary 2008 :puke:

Happy to say I never gave a dime or a minute of my time to the Kerry campaign, though we got two democrats elected to the state house from our city FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY!!!

[OnceAndFutureTruth]

56. Is there anyone close enough to the Kerry campaign to ask WHY?

It seems to me that rather than speculating on why he stood down, it might be a good idea to find out what he was thinking. Is there anyone here who knows someone close to the biggies in the campaign? I feel I need to hear from him, or someone close enough to know FOR SURE what the deal is, before I can really understand all this.

I've wondered if it might have been exhaustion. Also, maybe the Repubs spun the situation so effectively that he thought the country would turn on him if he questioned the results. Think Baker in Florida in 2000.

This is not completely on the topic of this thread, but I am too new to top-post, so I ask your understanding. Here goes: what happened to the recount of absentee ballots in Miami-Dade? Weren't they supposed to be counted by last Thursday? I googled it, but no luck.

[robbedvoter]

63. here's whyArticle in Boston Globe - Nov 4:

p...And while a team of lawyers pressed to go to court on
Ohio at 8 am to challenge the state's vote-counting procedures, Cahill
said, KERRY DID NOT SEE THE POINT.

'He immediately just decided that in order to go forward in a time of
war, an election lawsuit was not something that he wanted to put the
country through' Cahill said."

[RevolutionStartsNow]

66. He's taking the high road

Lots and lots of other people are working on this. I don't know if the Kerry campaign is, but there are plenty of activists on the case, as evidenced on this forum.

If there is massive fraud uncovered and proven, Kerry still looks good and even more like a victim.

If there is not, Kerry at least doesn't look like a sore loser.

I hate it too, but I think that's what's going on.

[Pallas180]

69. Kerry's got the dem party money & authority & free lawyers - no one else

does have that..

.Nader has the authority for the challenge, not the free lawyers or the money...

Blackboxvoting.org has the knowhow to track it, not the money, the authority or the free lawyers

Kerry didnt see the point?

maybe if he's that much of a dunce, it's a good thing bush stole the election from him

Bush may not be able to string two coherent words together but he at least knows how to steal and keep an election .

Kerry is too proud to lower himself to a street fight.

ass

[robbedvoter]

70. "at least not looking like a sore loser" Bingo!

It's about what he looks like - more than the democracy. let others dirty their hands - we can pay people do this stuff dor us. Ughhhhh!
Gore was attacked from right AND left - yet he put his name on the line.
And after all that, campaign hack reassures us that "Kerry will not pull a Gore"
Shame!Shame!Shame!
I knew he wasn't a leader. he is sticking his finger in the wind - if it doesn't muss his hair, he'll show up and take credit. Until then, looking mahvelous!

[OnceAndFutureTruth]

67. That site requires an account. Could you post a little more of that? nt

[robbedvoter]

71. Here's what I got - sorry, no link:

"Kerry forces planned for a battle that never was" (by Patrick Healy, Boston Globe, Thursday Nov. 4, The Nation section, p. A340.) I'm sure the entire article can be found on the web, and it's worth reading in its entirety, but here are excerpts:

(opening paragraph:)
"When senior campaign advisors left John F. Kerry's town house around 10 pm Tuesday, the decision was made: Even if President Bush were ahead in the popular vote or Electoral College, even if Republicans were calling for him to concede defeat, Kerry would stay in the race until every certifiable vote had been counted."

"By the time his consultants departed Beacon Hill for the campaign's war room,..the candidate had concluded that his final stand would probably come in the battleground of Ohio-and he would take as long as he needed to analyze results, investigate any reports of voter fraud, and wait for firmer tallies of the remaining ballots."

"Yet Kerry also told his aides that he did not want a protracted recount like the 36-day showdown in Florida..the idea, Kerry aides said, was to take 12 hours -and then the candidate would decide if he would (concede) or fight on..."

"Kerry only grew more nervous as the night went on, pacing at times and running up and down some of his home's five floors to collect papers or make phone calls, according to aides. But he, Cahill, strategists Bob Shrum, and John Sasso, and others were resolute that they would take all the time Ohio officials needed to ensure they had a final vote count...."


"The war room agreed to send Edwards out to Copley Square to address the thousands still waiting for Kerry. A two-minute speech was prepared that, aides said, was intended to have a tough, direct tone-to make clear that if Democrats wanted all votes counted this time around, they would be counted."

(bunch of stuff about the numbers of uncounted votes and which districts they were from, etc. not looking particularly hopeful for a win, etc. and Cahill informing Kerry of this) It was Cahill who shared the (not good) news..to the nominee who was working off of five hours of sleep...And while a team of lawyers pressed to go to court on Ohio at 8 am to challenge the state's vote-counting procedures, Cahill said, KERRY DID NOT SEE THE POINT.

'He immediately just decided that in order to go forward in a time of war, an election lawsuit was not something that he wanted to put the country through' Cahill said."

(end of excerpts).

[AgadorSparticus]

60. I am trying to work through my anger and frustrations regarding this

farce of an election. And I'm still having trouble wrapping my brain around the conceding before all the votes were counted part. I would like to believe that Kerry did everything that he could. It would certainly help the bitter pill go down better.

I know Theresa worked her ass off for him. And I deeply admire her. Scarily, Pallas, you are making a heap of sense....

[Domitan]

65. I'm hoping that Kerry is working behind the scenes like Nixon did in 1960

but we won't know till Dec 13th (?) which I believe is the last day for any reversal due to recount.