RALPH NADER MAY SAVE THE WORLD!!! (Its NOT Over in NH!) Updated Fri 8:15p

[IdaBriggs]

YEAH!!! I posted in another thread that I thought we had missed the deadline, and things were finished, and the money was falling through, and I got cut off of the final conference call AND THE FOLKS ON THE PHONE, WORKING WITH THE NADER PEOPLE, MAY BE ABLE TO PULL OFF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE MANUAL RECOUNT!!!

No promises, but apparently faxes were flying, and the discussion is going to continue on Monday, and it looks like Nader is willing to contest EVERYWHERE he can (as long as the funds are available to pay for it),

AND RALPH NADER IS SAVING THE WORLD!!!

The following is an e-mail I received from his campaign people -- PLEASE FORWARD IT TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW -- the word on this MUST get out! (But please delete my excited commentary!) :)

NEVER SURRENDER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!

(Oh, and please help fund this effort. Please?)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subj: Please Request Manual Recounts of Presidential Ballots

PLEASE FORWARD

Below is Nader's letter to New Hampshire requesting a recount. Also, is Nader's view on electronic voting without a paper trial. In addition, the Nader-Camejo campaign offered our campaign to poll watchers who wanted to be credentialed to be inside to monitor electronic voting. This is an issue of great concern to Ralph Nader. If the evidence supports it and challenges are possible he is considering challenges in other states as well. Please visit www.VoteNader.org in order to see what we stand for and help us pursue this issue.

Kevin



November 5, 2004

Via fax: [phone]

To The Secretary of State of New Hampshire:

The Nader-Camejo campaign requests a hand recount of the ballots in the presidential election in New Hampshire. Numerous voting rights
activists have requested that we seek a recount of this vote.

We have received reports of irregularities in the vote reported on the AccuVote Diebold Machines in comparison to exit polls and trends in voting in New Hampshire. These irregularities favor President George W. Bush by 5% to 15% over what was expected. Problems in these electronic voting machines and optical scanners are being reported in machines in a variety of states.

We are requesting that the state undertake this recount or a statistically significant sample audit of these vote counts.

We would like to make sure every vote counts and is counted accurately.

Sincerely,

Ralph Nader

Paperless Electronic Voting

A bedrock of democracy is making sure that every vote counts. The counting of votes needs to be transparent so people can trust that their vote is counted as they cast it. Paperless electronic voting on touch screen machines does not provide confidence to ensure votes are counted the way voters intend. The software on which votes are counted is protected as a corporate trade secret and the software is so complex that if malicious code was embedded no analysis could discover it. Further, because there is no voter verified paper record, it is not possible to audit the electronic vote for accuracy, nor is it possible to conduct an independent recount. This Primary Day six million voters will be voting on paperless electronic voting machines. This is a grotesquely designed, over-complicated expensive system fraught with the potential for mistakes and undetected fraud.

On July 23, 2003 the Johns Hopkins Information Security Institute reviewed the electronic voting system in Maryland and found that it had security “far below even the most minimal security standards . . . .” Johns Hopkins computer security experts concluded: “If we do not change the process of designing our voting systems, we will have no confidence that our election results will reflect the will of the electorate.”

Computers are inherently subject to programming error, equipment malfunction, and malicious tampering. If we are to ensure fair and honest elections, and retain voter confidence in our democratic process, we need to ensure that there are no such questions. Therefore, it is crucial that any computerized voting system provide a voter-verifiable paper audit trail and that random audits of electronic votes be conducted on Election Day. Paperless electronic voting machines make it impossible to safeguard the integrity of our vote thereby threatening the very foundation of our democracy.

The seller of the machines, the Diebold Corporation, is a supplier of money to one of the major party candidates, George W. Bush. The CEO and top officers of Diebold are major contributors to the Bush campaign. This does not pass the smell test. Voters should report immediately any suspected malfunctions and deficiencies at voting precincts around the country to their Board of Elections. And voters should urge their legislators to require a voter verified paper ballot trail for random audits and independent recounts.

--

[redsoxliberal]

1. GO RALPH, GO!

[BayStateBoy]

2. Nader has been a pox on us. Let's Set Him After Chimp & Voter Fraud

[jagasian]

9. Nader is not the enemy.

Nader has never been the enemy. He has simply tried to provide something that the Democrats (and other parties) were unwilling to provide. While Kerry wouldn't come out directly against the war in Iraq, Nader did and will continue to do so. The same applied to many other issues. I think it is wrong for the Democratic party to pit themselves against Nader.

On a related, note, I did NOT vote for Nader. In fact, I come from a Republican background... but this election, I wanted to make sure of one result: a loss for Bush. Hence I voted for Kerry.

Bush and his administration are bad, plain and simple. They must be dealt with, but not at the cost of our own values.

[Lostnote03]

13. LMAO/SooooTruuuuu....

....Maybe he can redeem himself historically....lol

[tsuki]

28. He does not need to redeem himself historically.

I voted Nader 2000, but was afraid in 2004. I was afraid of the chimp. He has always spoken to me.

[Lostnote03]

35. I have embraced "Green" values since the 80s'...

.....I detest the "realpolitik" of voting as much as the next....I believe that we are in general agreement....

[Carl Brennan]

66. Great way of watering down the effort to expose Bush's

theft of the Presidency. :eyes:

[jagasian]

3. We need to keep pressing this issue.

Talk about it. Email people. Put pressure on the media.
We need to keep pressing this issue, as it is important. Even if this uncovers more votes for Bush, at least it reveals the truth. However, I think we all know that the net result will be more votes for Kerry.

[dweller]

4. Here's the email addy to request recount

[e-mail]

please read for more info:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=24517&mesg_id=25109&page=



dp

[joeunderdog]

94. question...

Was the final votes margin of deviation from the exit poll (15%) in the Presidential election greater or different than the disparity/accuracy of the Governor's or other office races?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

5. So, Ida...

Who's working the press on this?

[sallyseven]

8. The Atorney General

Stated that one voter cannot ask for recounts. The public be damned. Nader is just a voter.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

12. Yes...

But this needs a press initiative. Anyone released anything to the usual suspects(The Blogosphere)?

[IdaBriggs]

18. Not that I know -- that sounded like a volunteer to me!

:) Do a PM to Hedda for information on this topic! :)

[IdaBriggs]

16. No -- He's one of the CANDIDATES! BIG difference! :) nt

[dweller]

10. Screw 'em TS

let them work for a change to find out some real news.

f'ing lapdogs.
dp

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

14. Nooo...

We have to emulate success. Connason got his earful today. We must make sure that the earworm of the press is not music.

[Eloriel]

6. FABULOUS -- Thanks for sharing this n/t

[hedda_foil]

7. We're working hard on it, Ida!

And we may just have a way to fund these things too, in the same way that Bev and Andy have gotten the first round of FOIA requests funded. I just got off the phone with Andy and it's looking VERY good!

Thanks to all the DUers who faxed Nader when I asked you to earlier. The fax machines a Nader HQ were jammed, and that's what convinced them to go for it.

Please remember that I'm anything but a Nader supporter politically, but he's got legal standing to order a recount, which is all that counts at this point.

hedda

[LSparkle]

15. Thank God for you guys!

I have been absolutely apoplectic (sp?) since Tuesday night, knowing this was another fraud -- glad to feel there's something we can DO about it.

[tsuki]

30. I tried to fax him for over an hour.

Could not get through.

[Hoping4Change]

34. Can Canadians send money to Nader in support of this effort?

[mulethree]

96. no

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=4&u=/ap/20041028/ap_on_el_pr/recount_fund_raising

[Eloriel]

48. Thanks, hedda

Well done, sister.

[demodonkey]

11. GO RALPH!!

Isn't saving our right to vote the ULTIMATE CONSUMER CRUSADE?????

[jagasian]

17. Not afraid of anything.

Nader doesn't know fear. He doesn't care about his own personal popularity. Instead he is more concerned with pressing for justice. That is why so many people hate him. It is not human nature to demand justice at all costs.

[Pallas180]

21. Thanks Hedda & Eloriel, done...and why isnt Kerry demanding same?

Something stinks in Massachussetts.

And now that I think of it, Senator Kennedy stopped coming out, wasn't
at one speech and I was a volunteer usher at many in Florida.

Ralph is right. Of course.

And he may be the only hope to have a recount.

Thank you.

[InvisibleTouch]

19. Only states where he was on the ballot?

If he's already agreed to help in NH, does he need requests from people in other states now? Presumably the requests have to come from people actually in the states where he was on the ballot? Or does it help for the rest of us to write too?

Talk about your strange bedfellows. Today's the first day I've been able to listen to music again since Tuesday night, and the song that came up on my playlist as I read this thread is Don Henley's "Forgiveness"....

[hedda_foil]

24. He has enough requests for NH now.

His request is in at the Secretary of State's office. However, they still have to get a check for $2,000 faxed there as well as a commitment to pay up to $40,000 for the recount. There are a couple of issues though. The request got in by the 5pm deadline through massive hustling like you wouldn't believe but the check and commitment were also due by that point. If they're in early this evening, it's still possible that the SoS, who's been very helpful to us BBV'ers in the past, will approve the request despite the fact that we couldn't work quite fast enough to get it all in under the deadline. However, if he doesn't, it can be taken to court.

Nader doesn't have the $40,000, as you can well imagine, but the way AAR has taken up the battle here, we think it's likely that they'll put out the call to listeners to fund recounts.

My organization, the National Ballot Integrity Project is working on putting all the connections together, which is where I've gotten into this.

hedda :hi:

[Cookie wookie]

74. Hedda, great work!

BTW: Randi Rhodes put out a call this afternoon for money to go to Bev Harris/BBV for recounts I guess. I wouldn't think it would take tens of thousands to do Open Records Requests (I've paid for a few myself). From the looks of the blog at Rhodes site, the money is flowing in.

[mountainvue]

95. Let us know where to send the money

and I'll help rally the troops. You are a dear.

[joeunderdog]

118. Can't he contest OH? Or FL?

Don't know where he was on the ballot.

[robbedvoter]

20. Why contest a kerry state? Snap out of it! Why not Florida?

This is the guy who wanted Edwards for VP them pronptly said: "I am the only anti-war candidate" only to say when the missing explosives story hit: "this is a distraction from the real problem - like wages and such"
He will confuse and obfuscate the issue so much, that you won't recognoize it.

[redsoxliberal]

22. you're missing the point... exposing fraud

[robbedvoter]

27. Not missing a thing. GOP dispatched Ralph to confuse the issue

You'll hear soon: both parties steal. Like "Enron contributed to both". Thanks Ralph for the coup the grace!

[IdaBriggs]

43. BULLSHIT!!! * I * BEGGED FOR HELP FROM ANYBODY & EVERYBODY ---

And RALPH NADER & HIS CREW (and some of the Progressive People) WERE THE ONLY "PARTY" PEOPLE WILLING TO HELP US WITH THIS!!! * I * am NOT GOP!!! Only THREE people could officially request a recount -- Bush, Kerry & Nader -- Bush wouldn't do it, Kerry can't be found, and NADER agreed, BLESS HIS HEART & SOUL. Go read my other post from today for the full story.

[Oak2004]

62. And I'm the one who connected Ida with the VT Progressive Party chair

who had the connections to bring Nader into the fray. And believe me, neither I nor the rest of the Vermont Progressive Party are agents of the GOP.

The point of picking NH was that NH is a small state where precincts are small and anomalies easy to confirm on the ground. If we can show that the machines are putting out false numbers, we've got a powerful weapon to demand recounts everywhere the scanners have been used.

Trust me: there are people working on Florida. And Ralph may play a role there in the future.

Right now, I will welcome as an ally anyone who wants to defend democracy. I don't care if it's a Prog, a Dem, a Communist, or a trad. Republican. This isn't about electing Kerry anymore -- it's about saving American democracy.

[Minstrel Boy]

82. Thanks for the info. People need to read your post. n/t

[Pallas180]

23. Here's some of what happened in Florida :

I was a poll watcher in Delray Beach at three districts in one building:


At 6 PM I was told to warn the voters that the machines were not recording the votes accurately - and to be sure to tell the voters to check the summary sheet of their choices. It would have been more helpful if they had told us that by 10 AM, not when there was one hour to go.

[hedda_foil]

26. How funky were the results for your 3 precincts, Pallas?

Have you looked them up and compared the results with the Dem/Repuke registration numbers?

[Pallas180]

32. Hedda, the dem HQ in Delray closed up shop immediately, I dont

have the results...tell me how to get them

I can tell you this. I was giving out democratic palm tickets, strips of paper with all the dem candidates. the inside poll watcher came out and told me he was thrilled there were 800 people in his district all holding the little blue palm voter strip I had given them.

Heavily Haitian and black area. 98% that went in voted with those palm tickets,
I can tell you that.

Republican lawyer inside was harrasssing the creole translator. Insisted he was telling them how to vote instead of translating. Many
can speak French/Creole but not READ it, so he helped, and was authorized to do so.

The democratic lawyer inside was going nuts, losing his cool.

There were supposed to be 8 machines working for the three precincts,
only 7 were working.

One line took more than two hours to vote. That was Nov,2

Theresa Le Poore. I'm sure you know that name.

On early voting Tuesday the 20th at Supervisor of Elections I was harrassed and lied to be a repub lawyer Lawrence Gottfried. Made a complaint against him at same time another man named William who was driving African Americans to the polls, made a complaint that same Gottfried was interfering with African American voters.

Same deal that day. Almost every voter stopped and took dem voter palm ticket from me. Few republicans came to vote. 99 percent dems, but 12 machines were to be working, was told only 8 working...llines
were 3to 4 hours most of day, then when slow, 2 hours, 1 hour 50 min.

Many left without voting.

that is Palm Beach County.

My Latina hairdresser told me Broward went 85% for Kerry, but the votes didn't come out that way.

I have some phone numbers of poll watchers....may be able to get all
inside poll watcher phone numbers for whole county...

Advise.

[robbedvoter]

31. Nader doesn't do Florida - toss a coin. Only kerry states.

[Pallas180]

37. Wold you please knock it off. This is about the hacking of the machines

not about Ralph Nader trying to prove Kerry lost.

He already knows that...

Your snideness is illogical and unhelpful.

All that can be proved is whether the machines registered BUSH wrongly or were hacked.

now knock it off.

[Eloriel]

49. Man, I second that emotion

Talk about cutting of your eff'ing nose to spite your eff'ing face.

It's NOT about Nader, NOT about Bush, NOT about Kerry. IT'S ABOUT THE FREAKING VOTING MACHINES THAT ARE STEALING OUR VOTES -- AND OUR NATIONAL ELECTIONS!!!!!!

Your hatred of Ralph is counterproductive and completely immaterial to boot. Go to some other thread to whine about Nader. It's just not ABOUT him. At all. GET it? Yet? Sheesh.

[neomonkey]

79. Who won the state is irrelevant to these investigations

The aim here is to find the states where it is easiest to dig up and prove there are systemic inaccuracies (favoring Republicans) in the electronic voting machines. Oregon, which JK won, is another good candidate, I believe.

Do you really think that the investigation would just stop in New Hampshire if deep structural flaws were uncovered in their voting machines? No, that would just be the beginning of the tsunami.

[jmowreader]

104. We have to do a blue state first

And more specifically, we must do a blue state with a very wide swing between the exit polls and the ballot count. If we do a red state, the entire "liberal media" spectrum (that's the Limbaugh/Hannity/Coulter/O'Reilly axis, not Air America Radio) will start screaming about how we Democrats are just trying to prolong the inevitable.

New Hampshire offers one other advantage: it isn't very big. We can recount this state fairly quickly--if we have a certified-good set of scanners, we can run the whole batch in a couple of days. And when the recount comes back looking completely different from the original polls, we'll have the ammunition we need to go into Ohio, Nevada, New Mexico and maybe Iowa.

At this point I don't even want to fuck with Florida. The major reason is I think Kerry could have lost Florida with no BBV problems--yes, Bush is bad for every demographic, but there are a lot of serpent-handlers and rednecks down there. I want states I think we won going away, like Ohio.

[IdaBriggs]

106. Not scanners -- HAND COUNTS! :) nt

[jmowreader]

115. How about both?

We'll obviously have to hand-count the ballots, but if we get a couple of scanners, certify that they'll count accurately--it can't be hard--run the entire batch through them, and have the 11/2 count be radically different from the new count, that will prove that the scanners were royally screwed-up on 11/2.

This is the point of this exercise: impeaching the accuracy of the 11/2 vote count.

[BlueScreen]

25. I don't get it...

Sorry, but what's the big deal over New Hampshire? What does it have-- 4 electoral votes? Or is it that you are hoping this may lead to recounts in other states, like Ohio or Florida?

Sagar

[robbedvoter]

29. nader nearly tipped to W this time - again. Like in 2000.

Or at least it looked that way at some point during the evening
That's the big deal. he'll accuse Kerry, Dems of fraud.

[TimeToGo]

52. Yea, this is stupid

I don't trust Nader farther than I can through my house.

[CAcyclist]

90. I see it a different way

Remember how Nader kept saying he was running for a good purpose and he wasn't going to hurt Kerry?

I think he forsaw this - that the election would be stolen and the democrats wouldn't contest it, so that it would be left to him alone and he could only do it if he were a candidate.

Ralgh Nader has always been a consumer advocate and everything he has done, he has always believed would benefit society.

[IdaBriggs]

45. We are hoping to validate the accuracy (or not) of tabulating equipment.

Assuming its not INTENTIONALLY fraud and just a potential programming error. If we can figure it out, then we hope to expand the recounts. I wrote about it in this thread -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=24757&mesg_id=24757

[KitSileya]

98. The electoral votes don't count

who won doesn't count. What COUNTS is that this is a stepping stone, a chance to start showing the fraud that took place. NH is ideal because a)it's a small state - easier and quicker recounts, with a better chance of verifying it, and b) because Kerry won, the Bush gang won't be as worried, and therefore will not be as quick in destroying the evidence and killing the activists.

If fraud is shown likely in NH, they get to challenge the results of every such machine, wherever they may have been used (Fla, Ohio, ding, ding, ding.)

IdaBriggs is working with Nader because he was the only one who responded to her desperate entreaties for help - and having him as the challenger is probably the very best thing that could happen. If Kerry had, it'd been Sore Loserman all over again. With Nader, people will remember the 'shenanigans' that happened over getting him on the ballot, but dismiss him - and when fraud is found, they cannot dismiss it as being a sore loser like they could if Kerry had challenged.

I know I've answered more than your uestions, and probably a bit more forcefully than you deserve, but all the dissmissive posts on Nader and IdaBrigg's wonderful work was getting me angry. I'm sorry.

[AmericanErrorist]

33. Ralph has to something between

now and his next quixotic bid.

[Hoping4Change]

36. IMO exposing vote fraud is paramount. It goes beyond partisanship.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

38. At the risk of sounding horrid...

So what. We need each other right now. We need his clout. He needs the attention.

A match made in heaven.

[ever_green]

39. Nader has always been on the right side of issues, he has a spine

I've never had a problem with Nader, he's a good man and he doesn't waver on the issues. The Dems should have and should in the future take a lesson.
I think it was wrong to try to keep him off the ballot...and we're arguing about stolen democracy? He is not the enemy. Get a grip.

[LoZoccolo]

40. Wait a second - look at the numbers - a Nader plot?

Kerry : 340,019
Bush*: 330,848
Nader: 4,447

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/NH/P/00/index.html

These look awfully close.

Is he trying to get this recounted on the chance that he may be able to claim he spoiled a state this year?

[IdaBriggs]

46. Please Look Here --

on this thread for the explanation -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=24757&mesg_id=24757

[Stephanie]

41. You know, it's BECAUSE Nader screwed us that he's perfect for this issue

Whose side is he on? He's on NADER's side. So it's GREAT to have him filing these requests. Plus it gives him a chance to attempt to redeem himself by doing what he really does - consumer advocacy.

[Rev_Karl]

44. He's fighting corporate power

Idealistic to a fault perhaps but he does what he thinks is right. He may be able to help to further expose this whole e-voting scam.

[Carolab]

42. Go to his site and offer your help

Tell them you'll volunteer to help and contribute money if needed to recount efforts in all states they are on the ballots. I did.

[robbedvoter]

47. NH - the one state Kerry flipped from 2000 is being contested

Congratulations, suckers!

[Eloriel]

53. You're embarrassing yourself

You're so blinded by your hatred of Nader that you can't see the issue at all. Let me try to spell it out for you, so you can quit looking so goddamned foolish:

1. The electronic voting machines are bad news. They can contain programming errors, malicious code intended to swing elections, AND can be hacked from outside. They can also be hacked from within local polling places and county and state election offices.

2. We have lots and lots and lots of reason to believe that they voting machines THIS year performed poorly (or, put another way, exactly as intended), "losing" a lot of Dem votes to Bush.

3. ONE of those reasons includes exit polls that differed wildly from "actual results," especially in those areas where computerized machines were in use. See this:

3. To try to get some traction on this issue, we need more data, the kind that looking at SoS internet pages can't provide: A RECOUNT PROVIDES SOME OF THAT DATA.

4. Only candidates can request recounts. ONLY CANDIDATES. 6 million or 60 million citizens/voters couldn't request a recount no matter what. But a candidate can.

5. Of the 3 Presidential candidates, only Ralph Nader agreed to request a recount. Thanks to the efforts of Hedda and Ida and all those who fax'd him, he agreed.

AFAIC, YOU owe Nader -- and the people who are working on this and starting these threads -- a huge apology.

And if for some reason you don't quite believe or get it about the electronic voting machines, you owe yourself a trip down google lane. Start with blackboxvoting.org, verifiedvoting.org, and many, many others, including humongous numbers of archived threads right here at DU.

[Dr Gramma]

72. Where is this data coming from?

This is very impressive data, if verifiable. What is/are your sources? You mention SoS, as well as various web sites. Are the percents for each state single-source, non-partisan data, or did you do some sort of averaging of partisan sources (a no-no for verifiability).
No point in pursuing it, unless the sources are rock-solid, lest everyone wind up with egg on their faces.

[Eloriel]

78. OMG, are you serious?

On further reflection, I suppose you're asking about the graphs. The DUer who compiled that posted elsewhere tonight that s/he used info from various reports posted here at DU and asked for assistance in verifying the information to make sure it was accurate, etc.

[Critical Thinker]

55. Set aside partisan rancor for a sec...

There seems to be considerable anecdotal accounts of flawed e-voting machines. If the machines aren't reliable, any chance for a credible democratic process goes out the window - now, and for the future.

The fact that a nationally-recognized figure is willing to spearhead a review of the fidelity of electronic voting, is a GOOD thing. Just get over the fact that it's Nader in New Hampshire; the "who and where" aren't pertinent to the issue at hand.

I for one, just made a donation to VoteNader.org

[ibegurpard]

107. Your DU "handle" is quite apt.

:thumbsup:

[Laelth]

103. Seriously!

What's the worst that could happen? We still lose?

Come on, now. We must fight to save democracy, and if Ralph helps us to do it, great!

:dem:

-Laelth

[Catherine Vincent]

50. Oh that would be great if Nader can expose fraud in these voting machines.

Still can't stand the egotistical ass, though.

[bloom]

51. Thanks Ida!

:)

[NNadir]

54. Fuck Nader. A twirp is a twirp is a twirp is a twirp.

If that ass gave a shit about stopping his CNN pals and his Bush Cheney buddies, he's about ten years too fucking late.

I am heartily sick of this pathetic criminal's quest for attention and I despise those who give it to him.

[Catherine Vincent]

56. I know how you feel. I really do. Nader makes my skin crawl.

But if this shows the fraud that's taking place with these machines, that would be big. But I do have one question, why doesn't he contest the other states, why just New Hampshire?

[Arioch]

58. I'm on board...

I have my onw personal beefs with Nader in 2004, but that's what it should remain, personal.

This election goes beyond me and my own personal feelings and we must do the right thing if we value our own Democracy.

Ralph, I got your back buddy!

:thumbsup:

[KitSileya]

99. Because they had a deadline.

And the deadline was coming up fast. It was either do it now or never doing it. Wouldn't you have proof that Kerry carried NH by a 15% margin instead of a 1% - and then using it to break Fla and Ohio open?

[Carl Brennan]

65. Criminal?

got a link?

[NNadir]

89. Oh you can use Google as well as I.

But if you need help: Start here:

"During this year’s campaign, Nader has turned up at a few picket lines and marched in Detroit’s Labor Day parade in an attempt to enhance his pro-union credentials. But in 1984, when employees of his Multinational Monitor magazine attempted to unionize, Nader fired them, sued them, changed the locks on the doors and sold the magazine (see: Washington Post, 28 June 1984). Tim Shorrock, one of the fired employees, concluded bitterly:

“Ralph Nader may look like a democrat, smell like a populist, and sound like a socialist—but deep down he’s a frightened, petit bourgeois moralizer without a political compass, more concerned with his image than the movement he claims to lead: in short, an opportunist, a liberal hack. And a scab.”
—Left Business Observer, October 1996 "

It is illegal (at least until the near future) to break strikes by firing all of your employees.

http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no23/Nadertr6.HTML

If you want to hear and read about embezzlement why don't you start reading up on the PIRG's and whether they, or public citizen or any other organization run by Nader were ever subject to public audit during his tenure.

You might also be interested in his tax compliance. While claiming in the 1970's to "never make more than $5,000/year" he was acquiring Washington townhouses and being driven around in chauffered limosines.

Look it up.

I stand by what I say. Nader is not only a Repuke pig front, he is a liar and a CRIMINAL.

[DerekG]

111. So you despise me, NNadir?

Yes, he got his hands dirty...and so did Huey Long. And both men did more good for the American people than John "Mr. Concession" Kerry ever did. I for one will never be "heartily sick" of a populist.

[matt819]

57. WTF -- NH is a paper ballot state

Results
Kerry, 340154
Bush, 330810
Nader, 4470

It wouldn't make a difference, and NH is a paper ballot state.

This is goofy.

[Critical Thinker]

59. the NH recount is important

Note that Diebold AccuVote machines were used in many precincts in NH. The AccuVote machine employs an optically scanned paper ballot, so there *is* a permanent record of votes that can be audited with absolute certainty. The fact that exit polling within NH deviated from reported totals by 10% or more (to the benefit of B*) is significant - it's important to understand the source of this discrepancy, whether it be machine malfunction, deliberate malfesence of election officials, or flawed exit polling.

from VoteNader.org, a copy of the letter requesting recount:

To The Secretary of State of New Hampshire:

The Nader/Camejo campaign requests a hand recount of the ballots in the presidential election in New Hampshire. Numerous voting rights activists have requested that we seek a recount of this vote.

We have received reports of irregularities in the vote reported on the AccuVote Diebold Machines in comparison to exit polls and trends in voting in New Hampshire. These irregularities favor President George W. Bush by 5% to 15% over what was expected. Problems in these electronic voting machines and optical scanners are being reported in machines in a variety of states.

We are requesting that the state undertake this recount or a statistically significant sample audit of these vote counts.

We would like to make sure every vote counts and is counted accurately.

Sincerely,

Ralph Nader

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oak2004]

61. Woo Hooo!!!

This is great news!!!

[TimeToGo]

63. How is this great news?

Why isn't he challenging in a Bush win state?

[Straight Shooter]

67. Because NH is where he can stake a legitimate claim for a recount

and if fraud is found there specifically, it sets a precedent for investigating all machines in other states.

In other words, bush cheated in NH; ergo, he likely cheated elsewhere.

[Silver Gaia]

68. Exactly, Straight Shooter.

[Cookie wookie]

76. Andy Stephenson called in to Air America

and told Randi this afternoon that BBV has proof of fraud in New Hampshire. My first thought was, I wish it was in Florida, since Nader was also on the ballot there and could also demand a recount. However, appears BBV has chosen New Hampshire, a Kerry won state. I'll have to assume for now it's because they have irrefutable proof of fraud and somehow a recount will bring it out and open up the whole country and evoting to auditing before election results are certified by states and the antichrist is sworn in.

Stephenson also said this would start a 38 state move to recount in states where Nader was on the ballot.

[GreenPartyVoter]

64. Thanks, Ralph!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[Silver Gaia]

69. THANK YOU for the update, IdaBriggs!

I needed that. I've been working on this all night in every way I can. Thank you for all you've done!

[secretpoet]

70. Oh bloody hell! Epiphany?

What if THIS is the reason Nader wouldn't withdraw from the race?

I mean, look at how the thought process could have been:

Only a Presidential Candidate can call for a recount.

If Bush stole the election again, he wouldn't demand a recount.

If Bush stole the election again, a democrat might be persuaded to back down on the issue and not have another 'tear the country apart' deals that 2000 had, and might not demand a recount.

Thus... it might come down to a third candidate calling for a recount.

And who is a more well-known, famous or infamous as the case may be, third party candidate than Ralph Nader, crusader for the common people?

Bloody hell. If this is the case... man. You'd have to respect a dude who would be able to get money from the Republican party only to later turn it around to fund the recount.

Ralph Nader may just become my hero.

[Catherine Vincent]

71. We shall see. And if that happens, we'll all be sporting Nader avatars.

:-)

[Barad Simith]

83. and with REPUBLICAN MONEY

that's a sweet thought

[Silver Gaia]

73. Union Leader NH News Article Dated for November 6th

OK... now, I'm confused again... anyone know what's up with this????? Is this happening with Nader? Or not?

Nader requests recount of NH Presidential ballot
By GARRY RAYNO
State House Bureau Chief

CONCORD — Presidential candidate Ralph Nader yesterday requested a recount of the Presidential election ballots in New Hampshire.

However, the Attorney General's Office is not treating it as a valid request because a check to pay for the recount did not accompany the request.

More here: http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=46674

[Silver Gaia]

75. Just FYI... A friend sent me the above link...

and I'm casting about for what to tell her. It's the media. Yes... and I don't trust them anyhow. I told my friend what has been reported here, that negotiations are supposed to continue on Monday about this, but is there anything else I can tell her? I don't want to have just sent my friends on another emotional roller coaster ride. :( So, I'm just asking if anyone knows anything MORE...

[IdaBriggs]

87. We'll know more Monday....nt

[SoCalDemocrat]

77. WOW

Ok, Nader has finally done something to impress me.

He's not a completely self serving beast.

[0rganism]

80. And only four years too late

I've always wondered why he jumped straight from the presidential campaign into an investigation of NBA referees. Oh well. We need all the allies we can get, at this point.

[necso]

81. Sounds like a very good line for Mr Nader to pursue.

And I imagine financial support can be arranged. -- But we need to move fast.

Now where are the Greens?

...

Any chance that either are interested in helping to bring economic pressure to bear on the media (etc, but we might be wise to limit our targets to a small number of high yield ones at any one time).

[Ithuilwen]

84. kick! nt

[2Design]

85. kick to top

[redsoxliberal]

86. yup... anything new this AM?

[ithacan]

88. kicking up

maybe Ralph can redeem himself a tiny bit...

[Poor Richard Lex]

91. The point, I think

is that * knew he was going to lose those states and had the machines rigged for election day. * just didn't know how bad he was going to lose NH, and Kerry still beat him despite the cheating.

NH has paper ballots, so there is a record of all the votes that were cast. There is a record of each and they can be recounted. NH ballots are counted on Optical Scan machines, the same type of machines that gave * all those votes in the Florida counties.

Now, imagine what would happen if the NH ballots showed Kerry with a HUGE victory, just as we saw from the exit polls. Every state would be suspect, and millions of pissed off voters would be out in the streets.

*, having declared his Man Date, would be limited in what he could do to stop it, lest he lost his political "capital."

If Kerry saw this coming, and Nader suspected repub fraud (its possible, I mean what better way to be a consumer advocate then to gain access to the system and gain some power to influence events. Bingo.

It would be a delicate and elegant turn of events, this election.

Despite my low post count and no credibility, I will put on the TFH and my wishful thinking cap to wonder if the optical scan machines haven't been rigged for a long time.

I know they are used in Virginia, a state that has a political history of being moderate. Now we are controlled by the repukes. The old style voting machines are all gone (I voted for Clinton in 92 on one) and the optical scanners have been in use ever since. We went from the first black governor in the US to shitheads like George Allen and Gilmore. With Northern Va getting so big I just can't see this state going so red.

[in_cog_ni_to]

92. Can the Kerry Campaign contribute THEIR funds to Nader?

Just a thought since Kerry doesn't seem to be using them for this reason. :(

Go Nader!

[robbedvoter]

113. To challenge HIS WIN? You're funny! Why not directly to W?

[mountainvue]

93. If Ralph can straighten this thing out

I will take back every bad thing I ever said about him. It will restore my faith in a once great consumer advocate.

[fortyfeetunder]

97. Ralph - going back to his roots

Before he sullied himself into politics, Nader was the nation's consumer advocate. I think this investigation may play well into his past career.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

100. Ralph Nader's a drama queen

[elehhhhna]

101. Wow Ida You are a HERO! Medal Of Honor, girl!

[sandboxface]

102. Let's keep the pressure on!!!

Email this to your friends and family. Then blast your local media. We haev to take things into our own hands!

[redsoxliberal]

105. kick

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[JohnGideon]

108. kick n/t

[IdaBriggs]

109. Kick for the Strength of My People! nt

[mike from ri]

110. NH had paper ballots, . . .

and a tradition of clean elections. if they were tampering w the ballots they would have done it elsewhere. NH is not a good place to start looking at fraud.

[IdaBriggs]

112. You are incorrect.

There is a paper trail, but AccuVote and Optech equipment are used to count. AccuVote numbers show seriously OUT OF TREND problems. this now makes THREE elections in a row (2002 General and 2004 Primaries) where the numbers made people start scratching their heads.

The only way for the numbers to make sense is if small, rural populations in New Hampshire are "more LIBERAL" than mid-to large size areas, which goes against both anecdotal evidence and common national trends.

Glitches happen. The only way to verify the data is a HAND recount, so we can compare RAW DATA with REPORTED DATA. :)

Best, Ida

[mike from ri]

114. okya but the graphic lumps nh

in w the non-ppaer-trail states

[IdaBriggs]

119. Some of the electronic systems (like in NH)

have paper trails, but nobody bothers to look at them because ...?

We are looking. Its an electronic system, and we can make the MANUAL recount happen -- YEAH!!! :) Best, Ida

[Oak2004]

117. Acrtually, leaders of the NH GOP have just recently been convicted

in a vote suppression case and others have been indicted. Even the local Dems have said they wouldn't put it past the NH GOP these days to do something like this.

Additionally, you don't actually have tobe in NH to cook the tabulators. Rove and his buddies could have done it when he was "working the phones" in the White House.

[righteous1]

116. .6%

The man got .6% of the vote nationwide, what makes you think he's got even a remote chance of causing any significant action?

[IdaBriggs]

120. I WANT THE MANUAL RECOUNTS --

I don't need a popular mandate on whether or not they should be performed. At the end of the day the folks at each of the local Secretaries of State (who are by and large good honest people) will make a decision as to which number to use -- the original INACCURATE one, or the VERIFIABLE MANUAL RECOUNT. Step 1, Step 2. :) Best, Ida

[noonriser]

121. I saw on CNN this morning that he missed the deadline...

so it's over for this effort, right? Or am I missing some positive update?

[Sparkle]

122. Don't know.

Anyone have any updates?

[quiet.american]

123. Politics makes strange bedfellows

n/t

[Lilli]

124. BUMP

...