Where are alll those that said this was chess strategy of Kerry's?

[AmerDem]

I know there were attorneys and others here making the case that this was all part of a major chess strategy to take repukes by surprise and those of us who said we hated the fact he was no where since Nov. 3 were told we are nieve. Where have all of you gone? Show yourselves. Tell us now what you think.

[Der Blaue Engel]

1. I'm right here

And I resent your "show yourselves" comment as if we're hiding.

I believe there is more to come.

I don't think you're naive not to agree, and I'll thank you not to call me naive for my belief.

Peace.

[NickiWitch]

I'm here, too!

I still believe this isn't over. This is really just the beginning.

Peace!

[fearnobush]

129. I'm sorry, but it is really over - Kerry will not occupy 1600 PA ave on

Jan. 20th. Nor will he occupy it anytime in the next four years. He can, however fight for impeachment, provide evidence etc. Thats it.

[AmerDem]

24. well considering

you didn't come out today with as much fervor as when you boasted of the chess match, I thought it was appropriate.

[Der Blaue Engel]

121. I'm not the individual who used the analogy of a chess match

I'm speaking as part of the group you were challenging, that believes Kerry has a strategy.

And I'm not sure what you mean about fervor...I haven't stopped posting since 10am PST. Should I rave when I post? :shrug:

[Mistwell]

30. Ummm...for Kerry 2004, that WAS it

The Constitution REQUIRES that Bush be sworn in now. The electoral college was certified. There is NO going back from that. Any further evidence would not help Kerry, though it can hurt Bush. But for Kerry 2004...it's done. There cannot, by law, be any more to help the Kerry 2004 election goals.

[pacalo]

42. How enlightening. Are you a lawyer?

[Mistwell]

57. Not that it is your business

But yes, I am.

[pacalo]

159. Umhmmm.

[Der Blaue Engel]

122. Kerry is working on election reform and finding evidence of fraud

That's the strategy I'm referring to.

[Amaryllis]

147. That's not what he said in his letter. I held out hope of that until I

read the letter. He pretty well dashed any hope with that.

[Der Blaue Engel]

148. Guess I got a different letter

:shrug:

[pacalo]

37. Same here.

Not hiding at all & I've already posted several times today that I consider today a victory for the People. History was made.

The wheels of justice turn slowly. For those looking for instant gratification & for Kerry to storm the castle, perhaps today's progress wasn't enough.

On a happy note, I heard a Republican caller on C-Span talk about the need for election reform. She said this wasn't a Republican/Democrat issue & that she, too, would like a paper receipt for voters.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

157. I thought either chess strategy or he took a dive. Nothing in between.

He conceded way too fast, even though there were already loads of reports of irregularities. He also knew well beforehand that possibility of the election being hacked. He had millions for legal expenses in his war chest to fight with.

I wanted to believe that it was a strategic move on his part, because if he did take the dive, if this was the mostly costly smoke and mirror show of an election that we have ever had, it would prove what I have suspected for the last 3 years. This country hasn't been ours for the longest time. That candidates were manipulated into place, with the outcome decided in advance.

There were even reports that the vote was hacked during the NH primary in Kerry's favor. Dean could not be the candidate. Look how quickly their corporate whore press crucified Dean to make sure he couldn't rise up from that loss and beat Kerry elsewhere.

We have been had.

[Der Blaue Engel]

161. thanks for sharing

:hi:

[Blue_In_AK]

2. Good grief

It's just getting started.

[AmerDem]

28. I hope it is "just getting started"!

We need new blood in this party. The leadership that continues to run things has us in this mess.

Backbone is all it takes, BACKBONE!

[IndyOp]

102. Today was an illustration of backbone - by a few, important people. (n/t)

[mattclearing]

3. Present and accounted for.

Maybe they were looking for the evidence and didn't find it.

Go ahead with your "I told you so."

I'm perfectly happy with myself and my past statements.

[RaulVB]

4. I'm here...

I'm just fucking "naive" that's what it is!

[Carolab]

5. I always said

it was wishful thinking

[AmerDem]

31. understood

and that's commendable.

[flpoljunkie]

6. It is entirely possible that Bush got more votes in Ohio. The point is

we don't know because the software in the tabulating computers--even punch cards use this tabulating software--may have been programmed to award enough votes to bush for him to win or changed after the fact via modem--and this maniuplation is undetectable, according to computer experts.

What we do know is that there was systematic voter suppression in Ohio and other states. This cannot be allowed to continue, if we are to continue to call ourselves a democracy.

Having the right to vote, not having to wait hours to vote, not having your registration thrown out by Rethug operatives, etc., and--most of all, trusting that your vote has been properly counted is the essence of a democracy.

[AmerDem]

33. shrub DIDN'T get more votes...period! n/t

[sepia_steel]

60. And you know that for a fact how?

And what does that have to do with ANYTHING you're bringing up here?

[AmerDem]

78. fucking "A" right I do

I know it not only in my heart but from all the evidence I read. You can start with Conyors 100 page Judicial report he submitted yesterday.

[LoZoccolo]

79. What was the real count?

You have to know in order to know that one is bigger than the other.

[AmerDem]

90. Kerry won

But unfortunately do to repuke e-voting machine manufactures like Triad and Diebold holding proprietary software license we have no true way of knowing the exact count. I think we can assure ourselves that they wouldn't let shrub down, hell they even wrote him telling him just that. Then you can add in Conyors report of the hundreds of thousand of people who couldn't vote, had their vote erased and had no verifiable receipt to prove other wise to really put the totals in Kerry's favor.

Look, if I have to bring all of this up to you I'm going stop now. We each have an obligation to stay current on issues that effect our lives and I have. It just so happens that my keeping current falls directly in-line with everyone of our Reps. who stood up today.

[LoZoccolo]

92. I need two numbers.

Bush: _____
Kerry: _____

Please fill in the blanks. With numbers.

If there are not two numbers in the reply, then I just might "reclaim my time".

With the evidence you've given, all you could say is "we don't know", which doesn't elicit one of those shrill and uppity "period" posts you started this with.

[AmerDem]

103. go ask the Triad tech

who posted the "cheat sheet" in Ohio. he'd know more about it than most.

[LoZoccolo]

111. You said you knew Kerry won.

And you don't.

:hi:

Make sense and treat people with respect and maybe they won't put you on ignore.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AmerDem]

123. LOL

I guess this guy couldn't handle my last answer. Nice edit on your part BTW.

[SouthernDem2004]

163. Why bother with such people. If he can not type without using

profanity he is clearly not worth the time.

[Time for change]

168. Check out the exit polls

You can find many of them in this forum. Kerry won Ohio by 4.2%. Exit polls conducted by experienced pollsters are never that far off. And keep this in mind too: Hundreds of thousands were sytematically disenfranchised in this election -- almost totally in Democratic precincts. Those people weren't even counted in the exit polls. If you add them in, it comes to much higher than 4.2%.

[meisje]

7. They are all hiding with the "Kerry in a Landslide" posters

[mattclearing]

11. Or maybe they're in DC celebrating a good day regardless.

:hi:

[Der Blaue Engel]

21. Funny, I think I see us in plain view

Weird how everyone sees/hears/reads what they want to.

Do I have to go kick the I BELIEVE thread again so you can "see" us? 'Cause I'll do it. :hi:

[theboss]

8. I believe the attorneys were saying quite the opposite

But, today was a pretty impressive strategic move by the Democrats. For the first time in years, we have a pretty coherent message.

[formernaderite]

29. Except no one watched because no one covered this....

...heck, even the senators and congressional representatives didn't even make an effort to show up. Yeah...it's quite a message.

[theboss]

32. As I posted eariler, you don't need the media to get legislation passed

The fact is that our Senators and Reps now seem to be serious about election reform. If we keep the pressure on them, all this nonsense won't be an issue in 2006 and 2008, which is what we want.

[Amigust]

144. Majority of the Majority Rules

It doesn't matter what 100% of our Senators and Reps want if the Majority of the Majority don't want it also. That's what it means to be the minority in all branches of government now.

[newblewtoo]

125. That vast empty was disappointing...

I second "didn't even make an effort to show up." Dock um a days pay. Screw it, dock um two!!! Just plain rude.

[Mistwell]

74. Oh yeah

Everyone rolled over and took it the hard way, all at the same time. Pretty consistent and unified message...

[corbett]

81. The True Democratic Leaders Do, Anyway!

Howard Dean was more right about the number of Republican-lite Democrats than I thought. What a bunch of fair weather friends!

[Botany]

9. I was wrong.

No doubt. The man showed himself for being the
flip flopper the rethugs painted as. No retreat .... No surrender.....
Bullshit.

I live in Ohio and worked for Kerry and saw massive fraud ....
I thought once Conyers brought the evidence out my (now ex) party
would rise up and show some spine. That included Kerry. I was wrong.

[SammyWinstonJack]

10. LOL

:evilgrin:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. I get so fucking sick of this shit...what have you naysayers accomplished?

Is this all there is? One more pissy thread?

[AmerDem]

19. pissy thread huh?

Don't you think we were owed what he promised us during the campaign. Look I'm look at it for our parties sake. Hell, if we allow these same so called leaders to continue , what the fuck are we going to have left?

Tell me. Give me your point of veiw. I wish I didn't have to write something like this but I'm not the one breaking promises!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. Yes pissy thread, just like the one you started immediately after this

For the record, Kerry got more votes than any Democrat to ever run for president... more than Clinton...more than Kennedy. He kept his promise and helped to pay for the recount. He can accomplish more if he is not discredited.

I would gladly vote for him again.

[AmerDem]

43. Let me tell you something

For the longest time here I said I was going to hold saying anything harsh about Kerry UNTIL today. As I expected, no Kerry, nothing.

This guy PROMISED US that he would fight. He didn't, hence why I'm pissed at him and every other Dem. Rep. and Sen. who voted NO today.

There comes a time and place when enough is enough and you know what, it's enough!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. Let me tell YOU something. If you have a problem with the ones

that did not stand, perhaps you should start with your own elected representatives.

I personally am glad that out of the 32 nays and 1 senator, 6 nays and one senator came from California... I helped those people into office over the years..I am seeing the fruits of my labor

[AmerDem]

58. I have Specter and Santorum

on the Senate side ( called Specter's office yesterday). On the Rep. side I have a Kanjorski, who I also called and will call again giving him hell. I wanted Kanjorski out for years now, my reason? He had become just as ineffective years ago as the ones I'm speaking of today!

[NickiWitch]

49. Let me jump in!

I agree with you....people are looking for instant gratification here. They're screaming and yelling that Kerry wasn't there today.

That was the best way to handle this. As it is, Dems are getting labled as being sore losers. He's taking the high road by staying the hell out of it...for now. I've said it before and I'll say it again...

...once there is some serious investigation into the crap that went on in Ohio, New Mexico, Florida etc. etc. etc., his rabid team of lawyers will be all over it like a fat man at an all-you-can-eat buffet!

I have hope and I will stay positive and I have the hope that some of the angry folks will take a deep breath and look at the big picture here.

I would vote for John Kerry and John Edwards again in a heartbeat!!

Peace!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Thanks NickiWitch

belated welcome to DU BTW

[NickiWitch]

56. You're quite welcome!

I find myself compelled to cheer people up when someone is shitting in their cornflakes!

Thanks for the welcome!

:)

[AmerDem]

61. No one is looking for "instant gratification"

Kerry promised endlessly during the campaign he would fight for every vote. He conceded on Nov. 3rd. I gave the guy the benefit of the doubt until Jan. 6th. Jan 6th arrived and Kerry didn't.

Do you see this? The man promised!

[NickiWitch]

70. Just because he wasn't there today...

does not mean he's given up the fight. I believe he's behind the curtain waiting for the right moment to speak.

I respect your opinion. Mine is just more optimistic of the current situation.

Peace!!

[AmerDem]

76. look, now you're getting into a whole new area of

Why did he concede. I'm sure you are aware of the fraud, almost everyone is including the repukes. He should have never conceded but I'm not looking to get into that in this thread.

[NickiWitch]

80. Respectfully...

He's a gentleman with a very sharp mind. It was obvious at midnight that night that it was going to be another 2000 fiasco. He saw what happened to Gore when *he* spoke up and spoke out about it. As we can tell from the last 4 years, his actions didn't do him a damn bit of good and just opened the door for the "sore loser" criers.

By staying out of the limelight and letting his backers do all the screaming....he's not a target of being a "sore loser".

Unfortunately, the majority of folks feel that to be strong you have to yell and scream. He's far too smart to fall victim to the Rove Machine.

Peace!!

[AmerDem]

84. WOW

You are missing the point entirely. Speaking up is the only thing that scare repukes. Gore and every other Dem. leader grew silent since 2000 and this is why we are in the position were in. We need real LEADERSHIP. People with balls, backbone, iron jaw!

[NickiWitch]

86. I don't think so.

The point is that people are looking for this to end their way and right now.

There is way too much that has to be investigated to jump the gun so soon. It's imperative that he keeps his nose clean so that when the shit hits the fan, he's not accused of spearheading this movement, thus causing the right to jump all over him. Might I remind you of the Shrimp Boat Cap'ns for "Truth". Notice that now that he's kept quiet, the righties have backed off. Unfortunately, it's his backers that are discrediting him now by calling him a wimp for not shouting from the rafters "FRAUD".

You see the treatment *we* get for saying it, imagine how they would skewer *him*. It's all CYA, and I don't blame him.

Peace!

[AmerDem]

91. keep his nose clean for what?

First off he did nothing to dirty himself and speaking out isn't something to be ashamed of it's something to admire. What are you saying? Are saying he needs to keep his nose clean for 2008? I'll tell you what I'll do everything possible and I mean everything not to have that happen. Someone like Clark or Dean (or someone new to the lineup) will have a hell of a better chance than Kerry every will at this point.

You think i'm the only person pissed at him?

[NickiWitch]

95. Speaking out for oneself is admirable...

but you can't ignore what happens to a dem that speaks for themselves. POLITICAL DEATH. The repubes would have a field day with him. If enough crap is found out about * and this fraudulent election. I believe Kerry will step up and say something and explain himself and his reasons for staying out of the fray.

I believe he will earn his credibility back and have a good chance at 08.

I think it's sad that so many of you are pissed and are so ready to turn your back on him. This is why Freeperville laughs at us. This is why we're called flip-floppers. We're so quick to abandon someone who had true class and really gave us all hope for this country.

I, for one, will continue to fight the fight and I will still support Kerry/Edwards.

Two of the most brilliant men I've ever seen in politics.

Thank you for listening.

Peace

[AmerDem]

128. why would it be political death?

you see that's the brainwashed mind set so many people are locked into. Who gives a shit what repukes say? Use the schoolyard bully analogy on them. In your mind set just because that bully was talking tough and trashing a lil kid that lil kid should keep quiet, not so. The second that lil kid starts getting in the bully's face and clocks him one the bully says to himself, "this shit isn't worth it".

Silly comparison I know but this idea that all Dem leadership must "watch' what they say and "act" a certain way is for fear of how repukes spin it in the media is weak and totally ridicules.

[NickiWitch]

153. Even in my drunken state...

I agree with you.

It's time for us who have been shat upon, to stop taking the blows from the bullys and stand up for our selves. We need to fight back. I know I will be doing what I can do, but I hope you will do the same.

We can't divide...we must unite in our cause.

This is no longer about Bush vs. Kerry.

This is about our democracy and making sure our vote counts.

I refuse to be screwed out of my right to cast my vote.

F the stupid repubes who did nothing but fight our right. I believe that our votes were F'd and I believe we will overcome.

Stop the fighting in our ranks and start to fight about what is RIGHT! We have the right to vote and I'm not going to bend over because some repube told me I had to and to GET OVER IT!

The wine is letting me talk like this and I, NickiWitch, approve of this message!

PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NickiWitch]

155. CAN I ALSO SAY....

that I love you.

You have brought out the passion in me.

You have made me even *more* passionate about this cause than I was before.

THANK YOU!!

Peace!!

[Sydnie]

87. Double WOW

You said "We need real LEADERSHIP. People with balls, backbone, iron jaw!"

Guess what? That means US to -- each and every one of us. Today we had just what you are asking for and you still aren't happy.

This is not going to change until we get enough people to understand what happened and be pissed about it as individuals.

I heard a caller on Stephanie Millers show yesterday that addressed this very clearly. She said that she was in Ohio and she was aware of what happened in Florida in 2000, but didn't do much about it then. Now that it has affected HER right to vote she is plenty aware and active. It won't mean anything to anyone until it hits their backyard in such a major way as to be a clear wake up call to both sides.

We can nudge the conversation and be there to support when it happens. We can be the leaders with balls and backbone and an iron jaw. Start at your local level and work your way up. BE THE MOVEMENT yourself!

[lib_1138]

131. I still believe that he has something planned...

and we will be hearing from him sooner than you think.

[Warren Stupidity]

170. Yes he plans to run again

in 2008 using the war chest we gave him that he couldn't spend this time losing* to bush. What is it, something like 45,000,000? I want my money back.

His plan is to continue supporting the Iraq war. His plan is to be a team player in the neoclown empire's bureaucracy so THEY will let him play at running for president again. In the Ukraine when they stole an election the leader of the opposition was rallying the people on the streets of the capital. Our leader went on vacation.

Not one dime Mr. Kerry, not one dime more of my money.

*having not put up a fight against election fraud, Mr. Kerry lost regardless of the actual vote count.

[whometense]

117. Thanks.

Just keep chanting, BCCI, Iran-Contra, BCCI, Iran-Contra. I think Kerry played it perfectly today. There's still the Arnebeck lawsuit.

Seems to me from watching today that the repukes looked mighty uncomfortable. If we can be a constant pain in their ass - I mean no let-up, full bore pain - until they can wrap them all up in a lawsuit that brings them crashing down, count me in.

And not that it matters here, but I'd vote for Kerry again in a heartbeat.

[pbartch]

83. I think we were "owed" making EVERY VOTE COUNT

and I want to see that all votes count...not just here in Oregon....where we have mail in ballot ......but all over the USA.

[Freddie Stubbs]

25. What have the fraudsters accomplished?

Looks like Bush is still going to be President, despite all of the 'bombshells' and 'solid evidence of fraud.'

[Snivi Yllom]

35. im not even sure election reform is going to get any attention after this

I hope I'm wrong, I really really do. But I don't think I am.

[AmerDem]

53. That term is vile

Let me tell you what was accomplished. The MSM/Rove message of shrub winning a majority now has an equal alternative response, he was once again "appointed" this time by the Congress not the Supreme Court.

Secondly, an avenue was started on election reform. As bad as our leadership is, I think many in our party are going to focus heavy on getting bills drawn up to force the repuke majority to pick it up. Wont be easy but it has to be done or were finished.

[Freddie Stubbs]

120. Most American still believe that Bush won, even some Domecratic Senators

today said that Bush won.

[No Exit]

145. So what?? Huge numbers of Americans also

believe:

1. That some of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis.
2. That Iraq had WMD's.
3. That Iranians are arabs.

Obviously we cannot look to "what most Americans believe" as the truth.

[Freddie Stubbs]

151. So how would we measure the success of Thursday's challenge?

:shrug:

[No Exit]

158. Seriously, it was a spectacular success!

Some people on here expect instant results from everything. But legal and political matters don't work that way. This historic, almost unprecedented action by Conyers, Boxer, et al, CANNOT BE IGNORED. As you can see, even the mainstream media can't ignore it.

We've all waited and waited for mainstream coverage. Keith Olbermann is great, but one mainstream guy isn't enough! Well, being a senator, all Barbara Boxer had to do was object to the certification, and in minutes she had gotten us all that mainstream coverage we crave.

Yes, we want fair elections above all. But, personally, I have an agenda of my own:

1. I want to see it discovered that there was fixing of those electronic machines. I really feel strongly that there was.

2. I want it to be determined that Moyers cannot legally hear the Ohio cases he is currently ruling on. This is possible--the judge has a huge conflict of interest.

3. I WANT KENNETH BLACKWELL TO BE HOUNDED CONTINUOUSLY, AND FOR EVERY SCANDAL ASSOCIATED WITH HIM TO BECOME A REALLY BIG DEAL--sort of like the way it happened with Kerik.

4. I know once scumbag is sworn in Jan. 20, that's it, but I want it to be found out, someday soon, that there was deliberate fixing going on in this past election, being done by the republicans. If that proves true, and if that becomes widely known, BUSH WILL LOSE WHAT SMALL CREDIBILITY HE HAS.

5. I want to see Bush continue to be hounded by scandal and confusion--as he is now, but on a larger scale. I think this is a possibility.

6. I then want the republicans to get sick of living with Bush's daily atmosphere of scandal, and for them to go over to the White House and ask him would he please resign for the good of the party. It happened with Nixon--and it can happen with Bush.

7. After Bush resignation... Cheney? President? Fine. We can rename the country Halliburton. I think Cheney would be the most despised president we'd have ever had. Talk about a great target for the democrats. Cheney is not a vote-getter, nor is he popular. So let them have him out front, that's fine.

Some or all of the above things CAN happen!

[Freddie Stubbs]

160. Do you really think that the media will be covering this story

Next week?

[sepia_steel]

62. Ummm... DUHHHHHHH

What were you expecting with Repubs in power? Is this somehow our fault?

[IndyOp]

113. No matter the bluster today, no matter the blowback -- and there

will be blowback -- today was a humiliating event for Shrub and company. They didn't get to play overlord-beloved-by-all. That matters.

:kick:

[Freddie Stubbs]

126. How humiliating is it to have Democratic Senators got up and say that

he won? But the big thing is that he get to keep ALL of his power.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Present and acocunted for

and if you missed what I also wrote, I also said, if they do not find clear evidnece (that will stand in a court of law) you will not see this until a Graduate Student digs this out in 20 years...

But don't worry we are here... and we know what this means... they were good... which means... the fight will be harder to win... but it is a fight that needs to be fought

Whether this is a waterloo or not depends on how people react. Me... rolling up my sleeves

[FreepFryer]

14. It was strategy, and Kerry won the battle. Next, the war. Whoever we run.

[HeyManThatsCool]

22. Ok.... I have to laugh at that

"It was strategy, and Kerry won the battle. Next, the war. Whoever we run."




WHAT? Exactly what did John Kerry win?

[Carolab]

23. Kerry didn't do jack

WE, the people, fought. Along with our true leaders: Cobb, Conyers, Jackson and JJ Jr., Arnebeck, Truitt, Bonifaz, Tubbs-Jones, Boxer, Watts, Waters, Nadler, Kucinich, and everyone else who stood with us today.

[Darknyte7]

100. You're absolutely right....

Kerry stayed the f*ck out of the way. In fact, I can't think of a better place on the face of the planet for him to have been today then where he was.

Good job John! Can't wait to see the pictures...

:thumbsup:

[Steve2525]

112. You are right Carolab

These are the true heroes

and Levin too!

Kerry stayed out of the fray, flipped on the "count every vote" in my opinion as he conceded without a fight.

Boxer is taking it on the chin.

I'm for Boxer in 08 before I would ever support a Kerry candidacy.

Edwards/Boxer 08

[Cheswick2.0]

45. Kerry was AWOL

[Darknyte7]

106. I disagree...

His assignment was to stay the hell out of the way. He completed that mission and did it in Baghdad.

[NickiWitch]

82. I agree...

just because you don't see or hear him publicly doesn't mean he's not working behind the scenes.

I wish people would give the guy a benefit of a doubt.

No wonder freepers laugh at us, the infighting can be so rampant at times.

Peace!

[Snivi Yllom]

15. "Kerry's getting into the game"

puke

[mattclearing]

17. Waaaaahhhh...

You're dissing William Pitt? What have you done?

[Snivi Yllom]

41. what I have not done

beaten a dead horse to death or try to shine a turd and call it gold

[joeunderdog]

69. uh...the game's ovah. Bush won.

And to the victor go the spoils... he'll have his way with the SCOTUS, the FCC, the Senate, the Congress, the FEC and pretty much anyone else he wants. If you think the odds were stacked against his opponent in this race, Jeb should pretty much breeze in there in 2008.

[Withywindle]

16. And?

The game is for ACCOUNTABILITY. LONG TERM.

Today some knights made small moves.

Chess is not a game for the impatient.

[truth2power]

132. Here's the problem...

It's the "small moves" or "baby steps" (as someone else phrased it) mindset that gets to me.

With all due respect, time is not on our side. Before our small moves culminate in some reachable goal we'll all be sitting in some Gulag somewhere. A very real possibility.

[Withywindle]

135. You're right that time is not on our side but

I just don't see any way of getting this done quickly when NOTHING is on our side. Grandstanding won't achieve anything lasting. What's going on in Ukraine, sad to say, is also a tug of war between the US and Russia. The people protesting like that are also part of a Eastern European "velvet revolution" recent-tradition that we in the US simply do not have, again sadly.

Any advances that have been achieved in this country have always been the result of BOTH mass activism and legal action/legislation--taking decades, usually. And the current "administration" is so busy wanting to roll back every advance of the 20th century, I'm very skeptical about being able to achieve big advances now...maybe I think the small, slow stuff IS worth celebrating so we don't lose hope, because it's probably the best we can do.

[truth2power]

141. You do have a point. Unfortunately,

I can't shake the feeling that if we don't stop stop these ghouls before it gets even worse (if that's possible) then it will never happen.

I'm no young chicken :-) and it saddens me to think this is probably the way it's going to be for the rest of my lifetime.

[LittleClarkie]

18. Yesterday's missive from Kerry made it clear

that they couldn't find enough proof of fraud to proceed.

I still believe in Kerry. I will continue to watch what he and the other Democrats do in Congress. This was never about him, but about the vote.

I was so pleased today to tell a gay Bush-voting Republican at Starbucks about how the vote was being contested today. He said, "But they can't change the outcome." He accepted what I had to say so much more readily when I explained that it was about fixing the vote, not about flipping the vote. He could understand, because he'd had his own registering to vote issues this election. I told him it was things like that, and watching out for companies like Accenture, that we needed to fix.

This is the way to approach the problem with reasonable people, I believe.

This changes nothing re: my support for our former candidate. I remain on back watch.

[mattclearing]

34. Agreed. Kerry would have fought if he saw a possible win.

This way Democrats win, and the Republicans come out looking like the Democracy haters we all know them to be.

[FreepFryer]

38. Right on. Agreed.

[blm]

20. Transparent voting is now an issue. Today was a great start.

Let the study and the investigations begin.

You do know that Tubbs-Jones was an official spokesperson for Kerry during the campaign, don't you?

I think they handled it in a way that would knock the Repubs off their game and set up an ongoing effort to investigate the 2004 elections while working to reform the voting system. Alot of Repubs today showed ON THE RECORD that they are AGAINST a fair and transparent voting system.

[Darknyte7]

26. Present.

What can I do for ya?

[Carolab]

27. Good LUCK, JFK in 2008 HAH

You just shot yourself in the foot.

[seito]

36. Checkin In

Today was a GREAT day. We made history today. The Republicans looked like a bunch of assholes, and the Democrats framed the issues perfectly.

I am proud to say I support Senator Kerry and I am glad that he had enough character to step aside and allow this challenge to be about citizen's rights and not about him.

For those of you that do your best "Chicken Little" impression. You don't impress me much and you will not bring me down. So wallow in your own grief if you must, but do not call me out.

I am proud of where I stand, and I am very proud to be a Democrat today.

[AmerDem]

46. It was a Great day

I'll be eternally grateful to Conyors, Jones, Boxer and every other Representative that stood today and contested. Unfortunately, Kerry wasn't among them.

nuff said!

[seito]

51. So, for you this is game over? n/t

[AmerDem]

72. over?

Speaking out against people like Kerry should show you it's not over for me or the party. Like it or not people like Kerry are the ones that have our party in the shape it's in. You decide for yourself, keep what we have or overhaul as soon as possible. Fortunate enough for me i've reach my decision.

[rodeodance]

109. agreed-lets savor the moment

[pacalo]

47. The Repugs did look like a bunch of @ssholes, didn't they!

They looked petty & small as they chided those who stood up for the People. They were, in effect, chiding those whose votes were taken away by the vote-stealing machine.

As for those who prefer to crawl into fetal position & thrive on the doom & gloom outlook, you're playing into the Repugs' hands.

[DoBotherMe]

165. They looked like the racist-classist pigs

that they are. I kept waiting for the dogs to be unleashed and firehoses unfurled. The KKK philosophy was in full flower during the debate. Shame, shame, shame! D ; )

[txindy]

133. I couldn't have said it better, myself

:toast:

[Sydnie]

40. Enough already

He is in the middle east doing the work he would have done had he been awarded the electorial votes.

Is it impossible to see the good that he does/will do at all?

This, IMHO, is the worst thing we as a party can do right now. Stop shitting on our own. They do enough of that for all of us.

There's an old saying where I come from -- a different way to say "wait and see"... we say, hide and watch. Kerry is already busy about the work that needs to be done.

"The key to everything is patience. You het the chicken by hatching the egg -- not by smashing it." -- Arnold Glasow

[NickiWitch]

89. Thank you!!! n/t

[rodeodance]

107. yes tthanks-lets not eat our own!!

[JMDEM]

44. Nobody ever said

Kerry knew how to play chess well.

[politicasista]

48. Stop hating on Kerry

Sure, I am semi-disappointed in his early concession, not standing with the CBC, praising MM and F 9/11, or the failure to hold Smirky accountable for an illegal war and 9/11. I would have love to see some fire from him before and after the election, but I guess that is just his personality.:-( Anyway, Kerry wasn't the perfect candidate, but who is? Kerry worked his behind off to try to defeat the worst president ever, but if is wasn't for his decision to hire his pathetic campaign manager and advisors without brains, he would be sworn in on the 20th. I am sick of the name calling and personal attacks. Like him, or hate him, this will not get us anywhere. That is what I was trying to say in that "Stop Playing Into The Hands of The GOP" thread. This is what Bush and Doughboy want. They want us to whine about Kerry and how lousy, weak and pathetic a candidate he was. I am sick of "well Dean, Clark, or Obama could have won." Stop it! The media feeds into to that. Why do you think the GOP have been sucessful in elections? They steal them of course, but they always outsmart the Dems. I still believe that right will win in the end and Smirky will get his, but we should be supporting our Democratic nominee of 2004 and support our nominee of 2008. We need to take back the MSM first, then think about 2006 and 2008. I may be the only Black who may still support the 2004 nominee if in runs in 08, but if he doesn't the General I will. So enough already.:-(

[justsomegirl]

50. Can I remind you all...

...that there are still lawsuits pending in Ohio.

[Mistwell]

77. Lawsuits which...

On their own, can do NOTHING to get Kerry/Edwards elected for this Presidential term. Nothing at all. Even a Bush impeachment wouldn't accomplish that goal now. Even everyone in the entire US agreeing that Bush stole the election would not achieve victory for Kerry/Edwards 2004. Period. Today, Kerry/Edwards 2004 Presidential bid ended DEFINITIVELY. And they lost.

Wasn't the first goal getting Kerry elected in his run against Bush? Why can't some people admit that we failed in that goal. There might be other goals...but that goal just bit the dust today.

[AmerDem]

99. of course there is but what does that have to do with

my opening post?

[emcguffie]

55. forgive me, but it's "naive". n/t

[Amaryllis]

59. see letter from Arnebeck to congress today about Kerry:

"In politics the targeted candidates and parties place a higher priority upon avoiding the appearance being sore losers than upon seeking the true facts and upholding the rule of law.
It does not surprise me, based upon my most recent election litigation
experience, that John Kerry and the Democratic Party which appear to have been the intended victim of the most massive election fraud in history are not contesting this election."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss//duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=247010&mesg_id=247010

[AmerDem]

101. Arnebeck is one of the very few people

who make sense and is doing everything possible to stop this train wreck we are part of. The man deserves a world a praise.

[Amaryllis]

146. I agree and I have to say Kerry's letter didn't help his efforts any.

This statement from Kerry's letter pretty much said he and his lawyers feel there is no validity to the Arnebeck suit:

"Despite widespread reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote, our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election."

[Carolab]

152. Arnebeck in '08!

Seriously.

[kalidas]

154. He may blow this thing wide open yet

When the economy collapses this spring and the war in the middle east escalates catastrophically later this year, when people's stomachs' and their pockets are empty, they will be looking for answers. Only then will they listen to what Arnebeck has to say.

[loritooker]

63. Maybe Kerry believes in election reform.

But--and this is not rhetorical--do you think this is realistic in a Republican controlled congress.

[GreenPartyVoter]

68. NO, but get it happening in your hometown!

------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[kalidas]

156. Kerry isn't reforming anything

John Kerry doesn't have the political courage to introduce anything about election reform. He missed a giant opportunity to raise reasonable and serious doubts about the election's outcome. He had the national stage, support and power to do it. He did nothing. It's a damn American tragedy.

[weeve]

64. What strategy ?

Bitterly disappointed in my two Dem. Senators today (Murray, Cantwell). Why the hell didn't they stand up with their vote with Boxer ?! They expect us Dems to automatically support them when they won't even get on board in this crucial issue ? Frankly, I'd be shocked if a Dem ever gets elected President again in my lifetime. Talk about despair !! Mark my words ... Sen. Maria Cantwell will now lose to Dino Rossi ( he who lost the Governorship by a whisker when we HAND COUNTED THE PAPER BALLOTS ) for Senator in the next election, thanks to the fact that even MORE Repub-owned paperless electronic voting machines will be tabulating the vote. Brilliant tactical move by the Repubs ... secretly tabulate the results themselves...never have to worry about losing another election... distract the (by and large clueless) public by controlling the Media ... voila! Success !

[sepia_steel]

65. Jeeezy Creezy

All this juvenile fighting and accusation and wailing and stomping... I'm tempted to leave you all. This is ridiculous. We all have reason to be upset, and we should be supporting eachother, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[FreepFryer]

66. It's sad. They are parroting the GOP frame, just like yesterday. Sad.

But ultimately, more a waste of their time than ours.

[AmerDem]

97. wake up already

When the hell are people like you going to wake up. How much lower does our party need to go before you realize we have serious problems. The leadership that refused to stand up today is the same leadership that got us into this mess, with an exception, there are fewer of them! Get it!

[glitch]

67. This is not a black and white world

We can be disappointed that more Senators did not vote with Boxer and proud of the Senators that spoke about the election fraud at the same time. We can be very proud of the CBC, especially Conyers and Tubbs Jones and disappointed in McDermott (my own, so it's personal) for not voting.
We can hope that Kerry has a plan and still be both disappointed and proud of what happened today.
I pray to God there is a chess strategy, but I didn't expect check today.
I did want to see more solidarity.

[sepia_steel]

71. I agree with you.

We all had different things we wanted to see happen. Different levels of satisfaction. I too am disappointed that there wasn't more but proud that now more people are aware. The bickering and venom-spewing has got to go.

[juajen]

73. Well, that's easy

Sometimes it's a draw; sometimes, it's a long, long game. While observers are welcome, those who aren't serious about election reform and continuing this fight, frankly, should just go to another forum.

Thanks to everyone gearing up for the next battle.

[Jo March]

75. Okay, here I am.

It was a good strategy. What if he had been there today? The 'thugs would have been all over him and he would have been in the shitty position of having to vote FOR *.

I'm glad he wasn't there, frankly.

[AmerDem]

93. The bigger question is

Why did he concede? Afraid of what repukes might say? Who the hell are they?

It only takes guts, ball, backbone whatever to stand up and not give up. We needed that "in your face attitude" this time around. We all talked about before the election. Kerry said he will be tough. He said he make sure every vote counts. He told us he wouldn't let repukes get away with what they did in 2000. You know what? He has done none of that and it's a fucking shame!

[corbett]

85. Here Until The Coronation

My faith in Kerry has not wavered! The photos of him in the Middle East were awesome and the perfect counter punch to today's Congressional travesty.

My belief that Kerry will be sworn in President 44 in early 2005 has not changed. Granted, the methods of achieving that are more limited now but not gone.

I always have believed that Kerry's trip to the Middle East was strategic and today's outcome on the Hill only reinforces my belief. He KNEW that Congress would ignore Conyers' evidence precisely because it was so overwhelmingly damning!

Kicking For John Forbes Kerry!

[Quakerfriend]

105. You got it , Corbett!

I like your way of thinking. And, I do believe that there's a whole lot of stuff coming up on *co. I have a feeling that Kerry will pursue investigating * and his cronies on some level....and, this will ultimately lead to his downfall. Maybe, election fraud, 911.......who knows.

Keep the faith!

[orleans]

88. BOYCOTT THE VOTE

even if there are paper trails
even if it's not on bbv
BOYCOTT THE VOTE IN 2006
if ohio's votes don't count
ours don't matter either

[Califooyah Operative]

94. Gotta love all the counter productive threads today...nt

[AmerDem]

98. is that what you call them

It's not easy for you holding the Dem leadership accountable, is it?

[Califooyah Operative]

104. is there not a better way to go about holding our leadership accountable

than denegrating one another and those leaders who happen to go about politics in a different way then we'd like them to? Theres been countless counterproductive threads, not just threads on accountability.

[AmerDem]

110. open discussion is the root of Democracy

This thread was started with the up-most interest and discussion on Kerry and where our party is headed. Some present their side differently than others but the end result is a melding of concerns and ideas that can only help the party.

[fshrink]

96. Mothership didn't land as forecasted. Will have to await next

orbital passage.

[politicasista]

108. I love all this Kerry bashing. It's fun.

[AmerDem]

114. If you think it's "fun"

try stepping on a live wire I'm sure you'd charge out of that.

[greatscott15]

116. Ockams Razor Folks

When presented with a multitude of answers, select the most obvious one.

There was never any grand strategy by Kerry or the DNC. Either before or after the election. That is why we lost. Kerry was a looser candidate.

[politicasista]

118. Stop calling him a loser.

[Warren Stupidity]

167. why?

Either he lost fair and square, or he couldn't be bothered to fight for what was rightly his. Either way he is a loser.

[politicasista]

119. You don't have to be rude

[greatscott15]

124. Kerry Lost It

You can be upset that Bush will be our president for 4 more years. (I am) But you gotta see how bad Kerry was.

Bush should have been beatable. Not easy, but beatable. Kerry just didn't get it done before Nov 3rd. And as proof he is a looser, look at what he'd done since Nov 3rd?

NOTHING!

He contested too quick. He went on vacation. Then left the country and wasn't even there today.

Need I say more?

[fshrink]

127. Just as Kerry licking.

[d.l.Green]

130. Most of us here must agree

...that we need to stick with the party for it to survive. ANY splitting will only strengthen the chances of never being able to win a national election again in our lifetimes- and another party will not just come out of the woodwork. We are stuck with the party we have and the best way to improve it is to work from within.

My main concern is not us here but the many who came out to vote after many years and those who were inspired for the first time. What incentive would ever bring them back after their candidate appears to have vanished for them? Their lack of belief that the system will ever work for them was just confirmed.

We can only be hopeful that more will come of this. And I hope that the posters on this board would have a little less tendency to overstate the little things until they really add up. Building up to disappointment does not build encouragement...

[FreepFryer]

134. good post. (n/t)

[Vektor]

136. RIGHT HERE!

And look! A Senator stood, unlike 2000. And all of the concerns regarding the election were forced out into the MSM, and as we all know, the vote is still being investigated. If you know anything about legal maneuvering, you'd know that investigating a case - any case - can take years. Gathering evidence takes forever and a day. Nothing happens overnight. What do you expect, exactly?

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYCGirl]

139. If you think John Kerry has anything to do with the "new left"

you don't know much about the left, new or old.

[NightOwwl]

138. I can't believe how many people are still willing

to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Kerry may have been a hero in Vietnam, but his glory days are over. Today, when it was so important to take a stand for Democracy, it was Barbara Boxer who showed true heroism.

[ClarkUSA]

140. Well-said.

[AmerDem]

142. This is sad but true

I often wonder how a guy like Kerry became so politically neutered. The guy had more guts then 10 guys put together now he leads his life base on what repukes say about him. Long ago during the campaign he should have turned his boat directly in their face. repukes fear this, that's when the cower.

[NightOwwl]

143. His "Bring it On" mantra was such a farce.

They brought it on allright...I think it was around the 3rd or 4th time he said it, that I realized he had no intention of ever fighting back.

[snot]

149. Pls see these posts

See this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x260715

and my post at:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x260715

[kalidas]

150. Reporting for duty.

[jsw_81]

162. Where's "TruthIsAll"

He sure made some wild ass predictions, didn't he?

[Kurovski]

173. All the work TIA did is still in play

I don't remember predictions, but I remember stats and a lot of mathematical calculations.

[Wilms]

164. Reporting for duty...

And it is still a chess game.

[Fortunato]

166. ....Oopsie....

[pixelthief]

169. This quote from Kerry proves it was

"Despite widespread reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote, our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election."

Duh. They were looking they just came up empty. They only had two months. We'll be lucky to crack this in two years.

But we will.

Crack it, I mean.

[Kurovski]

171. Hi.

I cussed Kerry out the moment I heard of the concession, but after two emotional minutes or so, I started to think.

I still think, and believe, work is being done in the only way it can be.

And I know it is mostly up to us. I think it always has been.

[fooj]

172. Brothers and Sisters of the Land of DU!! Stop! Listen!

What do you hear? There is no place for this among people who have united in a common cause! We All have our own take on what has happened over the past 2+ months. It's OK to have a perspective that may be different from others. That's what makes us who we are. That's why we have become a powerful, peaceful force that carries an important lethal weapon- the truth! How we get there is half the worry! What we do when we get there is what counts. PEACE!B-)

[earth mom]

174. Thank you for saying that

I needed to hear that tonight.