If you noticed today, the Dems framed the

[shraby]

debate on their terms. The pugs had a lot of bluster and inane statements but the Dems were in charge. They had a message, and stuck to it speaker after speaker.

The pugs had a lot to say about having better things to do with their time (than debating election reform?), Michael Moore, newspaper articles, tried to bash Kerry but Kerry was in Iraq. I also heard something about sports and they tried to say that long lines were nothing to get upset about.

It was like listening to a debate about two separate things..really weird to hear. I would imagine many people tuning in were thinking the same thing, and the Ohio people were hearing that their sojourn in the cold rain on Nov. 2 was nothing, just some people complaining about a little inconvenience. Bet that made their day.

[FreepFryer]

1. Bingo! You demonstrated a example of using the frame against the framer!

You get a nice Milano cookie... :)

[virgdem]

2. Yummy...

send one over.

[shraby]

7. Don't I get a Snickers

the candy type?

[FreepFryer]

23. oh no no no no - it's different every time :) :) great post.

[Goldeneye]

3. Its esp. obvious the second time you watch...everyone watch again!

Dems very consistant: voter reform, not overturn the election
Pubs were prepared to attack on overturning the election: "sore losers," "MM", "sour grapes", "accusations are unfounded", "no proof", "why ohio?" (ok everyone, Ohio had the highest number of complaints, did it not?)

[BattyDem]

4. The Repugs can't think on their feet

They thought the Dems would challenge the election results, so they prepared arguments to ridicule the challenge as "sour grapes" and "conspiracy theories" ...

Instead, the Dems "challenged" the Repugs to support election reform, which made the GOP arguments sound ridiculous, but they had nothing else prepared so they had to use them, LOL!

[progressiveandproud]

16. Interesting interpretation.

That may very well be why there was all that cognitive dissonance, or whatever it's called, between the Dems' and the Repubs' messages. That fascist Congressman from Ohio, for example, he didn't even respond to the Dems' arguments. Was the guy even listening?! I should check and see if he failed kindergarten.

[BattyDem]

18. That's what happens ...

when you do nothing but repeat the party line over and over: you lose your ability to actually think for yourself or speak without the words being written for you. :evilgrin:

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[progressiveandproud]

25. Thanks...

...for the welcome, BattyDem!

Yeah, I can imagine how toeing the party line day-in, day-out, year after year, including the endlessly regurgitated catch phrases like "the death tax" (repeat a lie until it magically becomes truth), can turn into an automatic process. Hey, maybe their brainwashing speech works on themselves too!

[FreepFryer]

24. Bingo. Same thing that caused the Nazis to be paralyzed after Normandy...

No ability to respond, since the Fuhrer might freak out about what you know is the right judgment call... so you just stand there and 'duckspeak'.

duckspeak ('1984', George Orwell) - (To quack like a duck). To speak without thinking.

[rehema]

5. I agree but Dems should have challenged Lott when he

rose to stop debate on the issue. Parliamentary rules could have allowed more Senators to speak.

[ClassWarrior]

6. But... but... I thought I was hearing democracy itself dying...

:scared:

I like your interpretation better.

NGU.

[shraby]

9. The more I think about it,

the more I think this was planned long before Jan. 6. They out-Roved Rove.
If the speeches hadn't been so "on message" one after another, it wouldn't have been that way.

[progressiveandproud]

8. John Lewis...

... (sp?) was great! I was at the rally at the D.C. Capitol, and in the early afternoon we briefly listened in on Lewis's remarks. Many protesters (and especially I!) screamed in joy when he continued speaking with authority even though some official had declared that his time at the podium had expired. Message: none of your petty technicalities can hold a candle to the struggle for civil rights!

Thank youuuuu, Congressman!

[ClassWarrior]

11. I noticed that too. Powerful.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

NGU.

[progressiveandproud]

17. Thanks for the welcome. n/t

[Wilms]

10. I thought it was a great day.

Sure. If you weren't seein' "it", it's tough to face the image of * *, but I think it's all goin' just fine.

Nixon won re-election.

[Proud_Lefty]

12. It hits me hours later

What I really expected to hear today was an argument to overturn and challenge the election and I was deeply disappointed. There was also an enormous amount of fraud that has been uncovered, no representative offered proof or talked of anything beyond irregularities. Then so many on DU are celebrating our victory of today. Sorry guys, I'm slow, especially today.

Conyers ended the interview with the CBC, making comments on how horrible the Republicans came across today. He noted that nobody asked the election be overturned and nobody claimed fraud, yet the Republicans continually accused the Democrats of doing just that.

Is this part of giving them all the rope they need? I think I'm catching on. Bear with me, I'm a former Republican.

[Wilms]

22. Don't worry. You're gettin' there. n/t

[Flatland Dem]

31. I was a little slow myself

I was a little frustrated until about halfway through the debate. I thought we'd come at them harder and make them respond to charges. Then I realized what our side was doing and it was masterful.

The Dems framed it as a voters' rights issue knowing that the repubs would be ready to refute arguments of fraud. The Dems also kept repeating that they were not there to overturn the election. When the repubs responded with their scripts about conspiracy theories and basically called the dems loonies, they looked like jackasses that weren't interested in the voting rights of american citizens. I say it was well played.

[pa28]

13. An important day. We stood for something.

I'm surprised that anybody would consider today a bad day.

You can't turn around a decade of reverses in one day and you can't win over a biased media in one day either. You can, however, make the first step in a long journey. Personally I'm thrilled by what I saw today and I think we took that first step by going against the playbook and standing up for the truth.

All it took was one bold Senator to rise above the usual Democratic hand-wringing and make her stand.

[jayctravis]

14. Correct.

Remember that this does make an impression even for the people on the other side. "Look what the constitution lets us do"...

The Republicans were blustery about wasting time, but what else was planned? They were each going to repeat the same short speech required by law and get out of there. Whoo...tough first day, late for drinks at the hotel...

There was an excellent Republican grilling Gonzales during his hearing. I'm curious if some were tag-teaming by cellphone in case the repub batsymbol went up - "throwin out Ohio!" Remember, they aren't *all* evil!

[Niche]

15. On point yes. A thought - if they look into Sproul & Associates

alone - problems with registration in several more states. The reps were just crazy ranting today - just nutty nuts. I'm particularly bothered by the comments about "X File bloggers" um, IF THE NEWS REPORTED THE NEWS I might not have to go on the internet to find out what's happening in the World. I'm going to send off some nasty letters as soon as I get my thoughts around that one.

[Dancing_Dave]

19. Indeed.

If the news actually reported the news anymore, we wouldn't have to go to the internet to figure out what's REALLY going on...but actually there's an overwhelming trend towards people using the internet instead of the corrupted and unreliable mass media as a source for the information they make their life decisions on.

"The revolution will not be televised"

[progressiveandproud]

32. Aha.

You said: "...actually there's an overwhelming trend towards people using the internet instead of the corrupted and unreliable mass media as a source for the information they make their life decisions on."

No wonder the mainstream news media is so dismissive of the internet! It's casting aspersions to try to prevent its own readers/listeners/watchers from migrating to the net. The way the MSM tends to speak of web-exclusive sources of news, one should be ashamed of even considering them legitimate, let alone using them and getting fed with treasonous conspiracy theories. :: gasp ::

This is why gay kids often have a hard time, to say the least, accepting and loving themselves. It's impossible not to pick up on the gay-bashing, 'cause it's somewhere in the news day-in, day-out, even if only in the form of quotes from Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Falwell, Robertson, and their pack know that their words are insidious and sow seeds of doubt into the minds of impressionable kids.

I know from experience: I went through a stage of wondering how I can be right, when there are so many "Christian" radcons who would call me a pervert or a danger to their children -- "Family values", by the way, is a key phrase that usually has this connotation, among others (e.g. "pro-life") -- who number in the millions in America, who have vastly more political representation that I have, and who are by far the most vocal about issues having to do with sexual orientation.

Sorry for my personal plug there. I often end up relating most anything to my experience of being young and gay in the U.S. Tends to happen unbidden. Maybe it's because I'm still trying to overcome all the conditioning I've been subjected to, between the overt and the covert bigotry, just trying to not hate myself, to remember that I'm not a pervert.

There's a political lesson here: when only one side is vocal about an issue, and it's the dark side... um, that's not so good. And that's why I'm so glad that (as far as I've heard) Air America Radio is coming to the DC area, so people who have read slanders of vocal "peacenik" progressives, but have never in fact heard one speak (!), may have that chance!

Anyway, the MSM isn't shaming me into anything!

[progressiveandproud]

33. Basically...

I'm giving a cautionary story about the importance of winning the "framing" battle, to use George Lakoff's language. 'Cause when the other side's frames drown out ours, when "family values" carries the day over "civil rights" (or whatever phrase progressives might use), then the popular consciousness takes notice. For example, it is common practice in the mainstream news media to publish letters-to-the-editor or Op/Eds, or host personalities on talk shows, denouncing gay rights (e.g. civil unions, domestic-partner benefits, or protection against discrimination) under the umbrella (the guise, really) of "family values".

To completely hijack this thread. ;)

[shraby]

21. What you saw today was a

chess move. I would guess orchestrated by Kerry. Remember how everyone here has been saying that the Dems have been quiet except for Jesse Jackson and Conyers? That was by design. I believe Kerry went to Iraq so he wouldn't be involved today and be a target for Repug bile. A couple Pugs tried but it sounded stupid cause Kerry wasn't even around challenging anything.

All the speeches had to have been written much earlier since they all homed in on the same subject..voting reform.

Next chess move? Possibly the court cases hanging in the Ohio courts? If I even think about questioning Kerry's actions since the election, I remember his Vietnam protests, BCCI and Iran/Contra and I doubt no more. He is fully aware of how Bushco operates and is ready for them...no quarter given. There wasn't much he could do about the loss of the election, it was stolen by too much. If I were Bushco, I'd be very, very worried.

[seito]

20. Exactly

It was fine for citizens to wait 10 hours in line to vote, but heaven forbid the people should ask our Congressmen to spend 2 hours of their precious time discussing problems with the election system.

Guess we saw who the grinch really was. :evilgrin:

[pauldp]

28. Right on the money! n/t

[Ryder911]

26. Did you hear them slamming Michael Moore...

on the Floor of Congress, accusing him of causing the challenge? It was surreal. Michael Moore must be proud. :)

I hope he makes a documentary about election fraud in Ohio and another 100 million dollars. Michael Moore must remember to thank them for the free publicity and great sound bites.

[Liberty Belle]

27. They were great. But did any MSM bother to cover?

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears...

[Patsy Stone]

29. It sure as hell made *my * day, I'll tell you whut! :) n/t

[Amaryllis]

30. Dems: fact after fact. Repubs: smear after smear. Not one substantive

statement. Not one.