Did Michael Moore inadvertently set us up for a fall?

[El Fuego]

We all watched Fahrenheit 9/11 and saw the scene where no Democratic senator would sign off on election protest in 2000. Michael Moore played it up so dramatically in the film that it left you thinking, "If only someone had the courage! Things would have been different!"

This time, Barbara Boxer had the courage to stand up. And yet, it was just business as usual. Were our expectations too high, because of Moore's dramatic license?

[mattclearing]

1. Um...No.

And why do you ask?

[mstrsplinter326]

2. obviously that was his intent

(/End Sarcasm)


ugh.

[htuttle]

3. So when we are let down by our elected representatives...

...we should blame a documentary movie director?

Okey dokey...

:eyes:


BTW, have you forgotten that:
a) The Democrats controlled the Senate in 2000
b) Al Gore hadn't conceded until the Supreme Court ruled Bush should be president.

[sabra]

4. "business as usual"

I would have to disagree. Yesterday was a battle won. BTW, I am a proud member of the MM Wing :-)

[renaissanceguy]

57. I have a feeling that

the footage will certainly benefit true Democrats like ourselves. 1) The repugs kept whining about how "silly" and "unneccessary" it was to be spending two hours talking about a voter's rights. 2) It will shed light on those Democrats who voted/sided with the Repugs. I think he will make the point that only one senator cared about our right to vote and have those votes counted.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.16200506

[Kolesar]

5. the gopukes in the chamber really obsessed on MM yesterday

I have noticed that MM is prominent in the speech of right wing media whackos.

[iconoclastNYC]

10. They are scared.

Michael Moore is the best hope for our side. Sure the 30% of the hard right will hate him, but moderates and independants will see his productions and it will open them up to our arguments and our canidates.

Its much easier to get someone to watch a 90 minute movie than read a 200 page book. How many people copied F911 and distributed it. My mother loaned out her copy to 20 people.

[Steve2525]

25. "Michael Moore is the best hope for our side"

Give me a break!

MM is a large figure (no pun intended) on the left, but I would hardly call him the "best hope" for us.

If that is the case then we are all so screwed!

We have lots of hope!

Boxer

all the congressmen and women that stood up to be counted

stars and rising stars in the party

AAR and other liberal talk radio is growing

Election fraud investigations are moving forward

Yes, MM is great in my opinion, but he also is a lightning rod for the other side as evidenced by their irrational fear and obsession with him.

Keep hope alive!

[iconoclastNYC]

59. They made DASCHLE a lighten rod for Christ sakes!

They attack anyone they perceive to be a threat, the fact that he turned him into this evil man to their base reveals the threat level they have assigned to him. It doesn't mean that he is less important to our cause.

His movies make people who do not think they are liberal agree with liberal points of view and that's why he is our side's best hope. He is growing our base, and he's a strong voice for the progressive, non DLC side of the democratic party.

The power of the media dwarfs that of any politician or activist. Moore's movies are one the most powerful tools we have. He aruges our point of view very effectively. He's not perfect but he doesn't need to be. They'll find a way to smear him. Look at how they turned Kerry's vietnam service into a liability.

Moore's next movie will bring thousands of new people into our camp when he makes the connection between the shitty way our healthcare system works and the Republicans and corporatists who killed Healthcare reform under Clinton.

There is the power of Michael Moore.

[peekaloo]

12. too funny....was it Drier who was going on about Moore's remarks

in foreign papers? "You can always spot an American walking down the street, they'll have a stupid smile on their face 'cause there's nothing weighing on their mind". LMAO.

[FreeCajun]

35. I loved the next speech...

"THIS IS DEDICATED TO MICHAEL MOORE!"

I laughed out loud in my office and the repukes all gathered to see what I was listening to.

Who was that, btw?

[peekaloo]

36. if it was a female it was Maxine Waters

she's terrific.

[Smoochie]

39. that made me laugh out loud too ... I don't think it was particularly

bright of the guy to start reading out quotes from Michael Moore - it immediately made everyone realise what a good and funny guy he is, and sooooo much more interesting to listen to than the repugs!

:crazy:

[KurtNYC]

15. As the saying goes "A liar can be discredited ...

..but a truth teller must be destroyed"

And they sure are going out of their way to try to destroy MM.

[rooboy]

6. LOL.. did you expect the Republicans to overturn the election? n/t

[ET Awful]

7. Oh yes, of course, it's all Moore's fault for making public what

was ignored by the media four years ago. Yup, Moore planned it all along as part of his scheme to support the Republican party, it's the most ingenious plan Rove has come up with yet. . . . . or not.

No, it had nothing to do with Moore.

[sui generis]

8. nope -

I think I understand your question -

The media, the republican majority, and the our other lawmaker's constituencies are what caused the outcome.

What happened yesterday needed to happen in just than manner; the only regrettable thing is that our media failed to address the seriousness of the event with anything more than puerile lip service.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[sui generis]

9. hey flamers, read the post before shooting off at the lip

really people, wake up before you start typing.

He asked about our reaction of feeling "let down", not the event itself. Pull your heads out.

sui

[Dr Fate]

11. I say we blame Emmanuel Goldstein...

...so long as we dont have to blame eunuch DEMS.

[AlbizuX]

13. no...

i think Moore agreed with what we did yesterday...remember, it's not all about now..it's about legacy and history too.

Bush now has asterisks on both of his presidencies, and history will undoubtedly judge him harshly...he doesn't enjoy the undivided praise that Reagan did, I see him more as Nixon.

Bid your time guys...there will be one day when everyone will openly talk of Bush in bad terms.

Bid your time.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anaxarchos]

51. Are you kidding?

The only thing Moore would have liked even better would have been for a dozen people to descend on each Republican as they were leaving Congress, shove a mike in their face, and say "so Congressman, you don't think Black people should have the right to vote?"...

His contribution to yesterday was very important.

[insane_cratic_gal]

14. We might of gotten reform done

Edited: for clairty and additional thoughts. (I have those occassionally)

before 2004 happened. When you ask "If only someone had the courage! Things would have been different!"

Perhaps we was eluding to over turning the election. Perhaps he is suggesting we might of gotten reform. But the film focuses on Bush INC.

I heard Hillary and a few others bring up, they wanted paper trails, for the 2004 elections after seeing 2002 had numerous problems as well. It was Republican congress who refused to hear them.!

So let's ask this instead.

Why? WHY would you refuse to authenticate democracy in this country?

What are they hiding??

[Stephanie]

16. You sound just like the House Republicans - it's all Michael Moore's fault

Maybe we were set up by the blogs? Or the conspiracy theorists!

[Vinnie From Indy]

52. They Will Be Blaming Moore For the Tsunami Soon

They will probably run a picture of Moore jumping into the ocean and then cut to a picture of the wave hitting the shore. A FOX news exclsuive! We Lie and You Get Screwed!

[carolinalady]

17. different situation this time--

Gore won the popular vote
Dem majority
Gore did not concede

2004 Bush won popular vote (in as much as we are unable to conclusively prove he did not)
Repub majority
Kerry conceded

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

18. Oh man...

No, but did you know that Moore bought the nails for the cross? All evil in the world, all of it, springs fully formed from the brain of Michael Moore. Every last bad thing that has ever happened in the history of the universe and across time and space, is his fault.

Sheesh...

[Jersey Devil]

19. I think it was Sandra Bullock's fault

If she hadn't given a million bucks for tsunami relief the media would have given the objection top billing, the entire civilized world would have been glued to the TV, all the Dems would have voted 'Aye' and most Republicans would have had a moment of epiphany (which has some irony since yesterday was the Feast of the Epiphany) and voted 'Aye' as well.

Moore is also clearly evil and in on the scheme, but most of all, blame the press hungry (but deliciously lovely) Sandra!

http://www.walhello.com/sandra+bullock.jpg

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

21. There is something terribly wrong with her neck.

It doesn't have me nibbling on it. ;-)

[sam sarrha]

20. they spun the issue of voting PROBLEMS to Bu$h bashing, and covered up the

whole issue of voter problems with the machines and Facist Nazi lapdogs like Blackwell....

[El Fuego]

22. I am just disappointed at the lack of media coverage.

Believe me, I worship Michael Moore. I just thought the event would be more momentous. Olberman barely touched on it. It's not even on the front page of the newspaper. I am bummed about that, even while I am proud of what was accomplished.

[CatWoman]

23. I normally tell people don't go chasing waterfalls

but in your case, you have my full permission.

[sui generis]

24. I guess my fellow DU'ers on this thread are illiterate.

READ THE FUCKING POST. He's talking about our sense of feeling let down you morans, not the innate evil of Michael Moore.

Just because someone uses the word Michael Moore in a sentence doesn't mean you all get to go off half cocked and flame away because it makes you feel good.

Respond to the post, not your damaged inner voice.

[Peace Patriot]

49. Okay--but that's not why I was disappointed.

In fact, 1/6 was very heartening in this respect. THIS time not every Democrat stood down. Some stood up! It was great!

My disappointment had nothing to do with MM and "the scene." It did have something to do with "F 9/11," these sense that the Dems, though brave, didn't tell enough of the truth, whereas MM tried to do that, to give the big picture. Dems were into the "little picture"--Ohio, and vote reform. Important, yeah, and definitely a symptom, but we've got a much, much bigger problem than that. Bushcons OWN the presidency, the Congress, the courts, the military, the media AND the election system. (Germany 1934.)

But as to 1/6/01, the Dems reaction improved!

You can always tell what a BushCon really fears by what he insults.

[sui generis]

50. I was just talking about

some of the obtuse replies to a new poster; that's what I was disappointed in.

It's discouraging to come to a liberal website, make a statement with a KEYWORD in it and have people unspool a canned speech that had nothing to do with the original thread, and then throw in a few punches about how the poster is a neocon -- that's just immature.

I didn't read "insults" in there anywhere - the poster was talking about his perceived reaction.

[SueZhope]

26. nope I do not think so

but the Republicans tried to say that the only reason
Barbara Boxer stood was because of MM and the Hollywood conspiracy people.
Thats so pathetic and desperate.

They have no real argument so they blame Moore & Hollywood.:crazy:

and don't forget...
any time any one disagrees with them
they are helping the terrorists.

[Poll_Blind]

27. Hmmmm.......Nope.

Thanks for trying.

PB

[European Socialist]

29. yesterday

Overall it was a positive event. Too little,too late, too weak, yes. Kerry and the Dems should have shut down Washington over voter suppression. The Repukes didn,t pay a high enough price for using this tactic two elections in a row.

[unpossibles]

30. no

but I do feel that MM is a lightning rod because he tries to educate people on the "other side" of things they won't hear in the MSM.

Notice how when he started being harsher to the MSM and BullshCo. is when the smear campaign against him started? I used to not hear such vitriol against him until Bowling for Columbine. After which you couldn't turn around without hearing some ditto-head express how evil and self-serving he is. Kind of like Nader. if you try to buck the system, the system *ucks you.

[Lerkfish]

31. you can always tell a republican by what they obsess on...

from the hearing yesterday, I counted no less than 5 repukes that mentioned Michael Moore, even though no dem did until the very end, more or less to defend him.

repukes obsess on MM and keep wanting us to repudiate him....hmmm.
repukes also obsess on Hillary Clinton....hmmm...

For some reason, these two people turn a repuke into a quavering mass of jelly.

*shrugs* go figure. One's a filmmaker. I don't see repukes afraid of Spielberg.
The others a junior senator, of the minority party....ooooh, scary!

Are the repukes just afraid of their own shadows, or are they really afraid of anyone who points out the emperor has no clothes? or what?

I know I tire of these obsesssions, and its always a good way to pick out someone pretending to be a democrat when they want to demonize either of them (pay attention, DLC!)

[Stephanie]

38. They can't function without a villain

It's their whole modus operandi. Generate fear by villainizing somebody, anybody.

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. If 2000 had gone differently, the best possible outcome would have been

A Senator and Representative both sign the challenge. Regardless of what the Senate did (it was tied 50-50), The GOP controlled House would never has voted to sustain a challenge.

[Kansas Wyatt]

33. Moore projected the next thought in everyone's minds....

Everyone who watched got to see exactly what is wrong with this country. Politicians who serve themselves, and do not represent the people. Democrats and Republicans are not there for career aspirations and kickbacks, their only purpose is to represent the citizens. When they fail to represent the citizens, they have broken the citizens' trust. When the politicians violate the citizens' trust and do not represent all citizens, then they serve absolutely no purpose and have made the citizens subjects of the Government.

[peacetalksforall]

34. No, Michael Moore did not set anyone up.

He was, in part, the cause of long voting lines.

Were your eyes opened because of his documentary? Do you know anyone else who went to see it who said anything like...I had no idea.

The only problem with that part the his documentary is that he DID NOT reference the stuck position. The difference between 2000 and what we just went through was the Supreme Court. He omitted the reason why Gore was stuck.

Now we know that the Supreme Court is not supreme and is an overtly partisan branch of U.S. Government contrary to every principle of the constitution that we were taught.

They took the law into their hands at the request of the right wing who they conspired with to keep Bush from being 'hurt'.

(Isn't it amazing, Bush is always 'hurt' or suffereing from 'hard' work, 'hard' tasks, the 'hard' act of speaking, the 'hard' act of understanding and getting it, the 'hard' work of getting those lights to go on. Bush the HURT and HARD President.)

Don't knock Moore. Knock mistakes or omissions, not the person - he caused long lines even though too many didn't get to vote.

[RevCheesehead]

37. Golly - you might as well ask if MLK, Jr. set us up for a fall as well.

I mean, the expectations of that darned "dream" of his - we never should have taken him seriously, because we see how far we have really "overcome" today.

:eyes:

NGU

[Not a Sheep]

40. No, Moore did not set us up for a fall......

"Michael Moore played it up so dramatically in the film that it left you thinking, "If only someone had the courage! Things would have been different!"

I think some people did not fully undestand the process and what happened after a Senator objected.

Moore did our country a great favor by making F/911.

[Vinnie From Indy]

41. It Wasn't Michael Moore's Movie So Much As it Was

It wasn't Michael Moore's movie as much as it was the movie "Caddyshack". Clearly, Americans, after watching that movie, expected to see the rich Republicans lose oodles of money in a golf tournament to the 'good guys". I was deeply disturbed that there was not even a mention of golf during the whole of yesterday's debate. I expected the entire issue of whether the Congress would accept or deny the protest to be settled on a golf course somewhere and the good guys would win! Where in the hell is the dancin' gopher?

The original post is just plain silly. Michael Moore did NOT take dramatic license in regard to the joint session in 2000, he simply filmed the actual events and made commentary. If he had used "dramatic license", the Congressional Black Caucus would have busted out nunchucks and started whoopin' some honkey, G.O.P. ass! Think "Kill Bill 2". I can see it now! Julia Carson's hat is really super high tech killing weapon that she can throw and it always comes back to her. Tom DeLay would run from the chamber only to be eaten by on the steps of the Capitol by a giant Tyrannosaurus Rex that was created by Karl Rove and Michael Crichton. As the CBC is rolling through the hall bustin' heads, Bill Frist starts screaming "Kaiser Sose!, Kaiser Sose!" and an alien pops out of Dick Cheney's chest and onto the podium. That is dramatic license!

[Smoochie]

44. Hey ... that sounds like a great new movie idea!

[El Fuego]

45. So real life isn't like the movies?!? That's today's lesson?

My entire belief system is crashing....

I let that spider bite me for nothing.

[Vinnie From Indy]

47. LOL ! That's Good ! Now your getting it!

I understand that different people can be affected by the same event in drastically different ways. Michael Moore filmed the actual events of the 2000 protest and he gave his own personal commentary on how that event affected him and his opinion on how it affected America. Strictly speaking, that is not "dramatic license". I can understand how many people might be feeling let down after yesterday's protest and I shouldn't make fun of those feelings, but we mustn't be in denial about what is possible at any given moment.

In regard to life v. fiction, life will always be able to compete with fiction for telling a compelling, outlandish and improbable story. One need look no further than C+ Augustus's rise to power to see that life writes stories that are equally as astonishing as any written by fiction writers.

[seabeyond]

42. no, firstly .....played it up so dramatically

he showed what happened in a mere few moments. that isnt playing it up, it is reporting and no one knew about it because our media didnt show it. it was dramatic, in event all and of itself. we had a president placed in the white house with known and seen fraud

dramatic liscence, i beg your pardon, now if you show a truth it is dramatic liscensing while, create a lie is news

[Trillo]

43. No. If not for Fahrenheit 9/11, voters likely wouldn't have understood

the importance of contacting their senator to instruct them to object. I think MM was implicitly instrumental in the objections we saw and heard yesterday.

One day at a time, and small steps in the proper direction are not "a fall." We all learned important things about our leaders yesterday. It was an important and historic day.

History will judge Jan 6, 2005 correctly, even if M$M is on the take and accomplice to the corruption.

[uppityperson]

58. exactly.

It might not have changed the immediate result (k/e in rather than b/c), but showed us that we can work together and make small changes.

[NVMojo]

46. what a question. Since when is MUCKRAKING a bad thing besides in

Bushworld?

author edit

[JerseygirlCT]

48. The election results weren't going to change

It was a lovely thing to daydream about, but it was never going to happen.

What might still happen because of yesterday is more action on the terrible problems with the electoral system. We have an opportunity to make this a good fight for fair and open elections next time -- when every qualified person is allowed a vote and that vote is counted. I think there's a good opportunity to persuade a large segment of the country, regardless of political persuasion, that insuring fair elections is in their best interest. That's the fight now.

[FreepFryer]

53. Absolutely right. I've said it before and I'll say it again...

...the GOP-dominated Congress never let us debate it for the past four years, and given the partisan attack language, was never going to allow us a debate on Election Protection.

They defunded HAVA.

This was the ONLY way we could get a debate on the issue while the GOP remains dominant and maintains their predatory attitude regarding the minority party.

It was marvelously effective at starting the debate. Clearly, we are unlikely to win another election until the system is reformed.

Election Protection Now.

United Against Bush.

[bunny planet]

54. that's right, when in doubt blame it on Michael Moore.

Are you aware that Republican Senators and Congressmen were saying the same thing yesterday? They actually said, not sure which ones 'Michael Moore wrote a letter (the one on his website)appealing to Barbara Boxer and that's why she decided to protest the electors today'. I'm paraphrasing here. Barbara Boxer who was there in 2000, and watched the CBC give their impassioned pleas to contest the Florida electors, said that she wishes in retrospect that she had signed on at the time. She was honoring Al Gore's request not to do so.

Of course it was business as usual, and yes I think some peoples expectations were too high. The debate did exactly what Barbara Boxer said it was going to do, it shed light on the irregularities that were on the surface and right there to see in Ohio. It could not shed light, in a two hour debate, on the fraud that very likely occured in the tabulators, the touch screen machines, the thrown out registrations, the 93K punchcard ballots that were undervotes that were not ever counted. There also wasn't enough time to talk about the illegal aspects of the Glib recount and the fact that there never was a real recount. This is what the Republicans do, they don't want to count votes, unless they know they will be Republican votes.

Make no mistake, the Republicans revealed their true colors yesterday. Democrats talked about counting votes, being responsible to their constituents, and protecting the right to vote and our democracy. The Repugs. maligned, name-called, dismissed, and attempted to discredit the public servants who had the nerve to bring any of this up. No question it made them look like sore-winners, and people with something to hide. Imagine them being indignant about the 'waste of time' a debate process laid out in the Constitution was. They looked like the slimey crooks that they are. Especially Delay.

Michael Moore did not set us up. Sometimes I give short answers, this time it was long.....

[mattclearing]

55. Did you even vote for John Kerry?

From now on, I'm going to ask everyone who whines about this kind of nonsense if they voted for Kerry.

If they didn't, then, to paraphrase the Shrubby One himself, "Who cares what they think?"

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

56. Gore would have been forced to vote for himself

From http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=246054#246069

Why 2K?

The situation left after the Supreme Court’s decision in December 2000, created an amazing opportunity to exploit the nobility of congress.

Many people are aware of the strange situation on January 6th, 2001, when members of the Congressional Black Congress stood up to protest the counting of the electoral votes from the state of Florida. They considered those electoral votes to be not “regularly given" due to constitutional infringements, under the 14th amendment, and in US Code:

Amendment 14 (1968)
... But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any ... citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, ... the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion ...

USC Title 3 Chapter 1 Subsection 15
... no electoral vote or votes from any State which shall have <not> been regularly given by electors whose appointment has been lawfully certified ...

The same subsection 15 states that such an objection brought up in the counting of the electoral votes, needs to be in writing, and have the support, through their signature, of one member of the House of Representatives and one member of the Senate. Briefly, the process at that point has the two bodies separate, debate for up to 2 hours and vote on the objection.

On January 6, 2001, there was a very precarious position in the congress as the House of Representatives had a Republican majority, but the Senate was tied with 50 Democrats and 50 Republicans. If an objection to the counting of electoral votes was called for, a tie in the Senate’s vote would have to be broken by the President of the Senate. This role is specifically defined in Article Two Section Three:

Article 2 Section 3
The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided.
Further, the 20th Amendment defines the terms of both the Congress and the Executive:

Amendment 20 (1933) - Section 1
The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January...

With a new congress and it’s equally balanced number of partisan members, the Senate’s deciding vote for the rejection of Florida’s electors, and thus the Presidency of the United States would have fallen to Al Gore, the Vice President until January 20th, and of course the very person who would be President with a successful challenge.

That kind of boxed-in situation, in which Gore could have vote himself into office left the Democrats in a terrible situation, since both Houses would need to vote for the objection. If the objection was allowed, there could be two possible scenarios. Either the Republican majority in the House of Representatives would vote against the objection, thus forcing the denial to the objection of the electors, and the Senate’s majority including Gore’s vote would be useless. However, if the House of Representatives voted for the objection, the Senate’s tie would mean the entire presidency would come down to one man’s vote.

It would seem that the entire power of Congress, and by extension, the power of the people to choose their own government leaders was voided by the potential of creating a hopelessly divisive government on the one hand, or a self-annointed President on the other.