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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:42 AM
Original message
An Apology
For three years now, I've striven to learn all I could about computerized voting. Then, having accumulated that body of knowledge, I've made an effort to educate and inform others.

It's obvious I have failed in that endeavor. There are far too many of you, right here on DU, who still don't believe that your vote could be stolen. You continue to believe that the election was fair and legal.

I apologize for having failed to educate you.
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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. I believe! n/t
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. of course that is not really an apology
but I do understand your frustration.
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think most DUers believe the election was stolen.
Lets run a post election certification poll: who thinks the 2004 election was stolen now?
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joevoter Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. You haven't failed me
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. Memme: Computers count the vote so no one can see, They claim Bush won,
I say prove it to me.

Even punch cards are tabulated by proprietary software owned and developed by companies that support the GOP.

The bipartisan boards of election officials watching the tabulation? What a joke, there is nothing to see.
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mycatforpresident Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. I like that line
as a slogan. Or is it already and I've missed something?

:)

"Computers count the vote so no one can see. They claim Bush won, I say PROVE IT TO ME."
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. I made it up for my GWB is a PAB version 2.0
GWB is a PAB has to be updated after the election and everything has to rhyme so...


version 1.0


became version 2.0


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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Rosebud
This old granny loves your rap...it tickles me more every time I read it.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. Heck, this 39 yr. old school teacher loves it, too!
Keep doing what you are doing, Rosebud. :yourock:
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SueZhope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. anyone that has learned the facts on computerized voting
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 11:49 AM by SueZhope
and still believes that there vote can not be stolen might be in "denial "

Don't blame yourself some people don't want to except that
level of corruption.

thanks for spending time educating people , thats a great thing:)

"you can lead the people to reality but you cant make them drink"
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:58 PM
Original message
Mind if I change that a little, Sue?? "You can lead the people to reality
but you can't make them THINK". (More like the problem we have with those who don't yet "get it".)

<from one Sue to another>

:kick::kick::kick:
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
7. You shouldn't take things so personal....
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 12:00 PM by xultar
:nopity:

You must understand that we aren't all going to agree nor will we all see things the same way.

There are different ways that votes can be stolen. The one I'm most interested in right now and the one that has my priority is vote suppression. That can be proved and prosecuted.

There are different avenues in which we can attack this issue. You attack your way on your front and I will attack my way on my front.

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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. I don't think it's that
A lot of us know it was stolen. I'm happy about what happened yesterday with 1 contester. It draws attention to the cause of reform. I'm thrilled about that. I knew the results would not change.
Does that make what happened right? HELL NO.

We have to beat them at their own game, take back the election from computers. So we have Fair elections and free.

Change is not instant recognition for the whole of the world, nor on individual bases. It takes times. 4 years is enough for many of us. Remember that denial is a powerful tool if your candidate has won. Who ever wants to believe the person they entrusted cheated his way into office. The minority not the majority! will find out the truth soon enough.

Have faith, I know it's incredibly difficult to those of us who have seen it for years. We have to keep prodding our reps to investigate.



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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. Who on here doesn't "believe that their vote could be stolen?"
Please, can you cite a quote?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. No Quotes
But just read a bit... There are folks here blaming Kerry, the DLC, DNC, the whole Democratic party for the outcome of this election.

Very simply: There are too many here on DU are are righteously ignorant of the fact that this election was stolen.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well, surely if all of the above had done better...
no one could have stolen the election (that's not meant to counter your thoughts though).
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bobbobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. ugh, don't get on your high horse
im sure theres no one here that would say electronic voting couldn't lead to stolen votes. Your condescending tone doesn't help matters one bit.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. High Horse?
I think an apology is more of a low course?

I am sincere... I do apologize for having failed to educate and inform. Of course, I do have personal reasons for my apology.

You see, I know that in order for me to remain free, you too must be free. Well, we are losing our freedom and the most current evidence of that is the loss of our free, and fair, voting.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Wow
Welcome to DU bob, I've never seen your name here before, but you can bet I'll never forget it.
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
58. Pay no heed, BeFree
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 10:47 PM by ailsagirl
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. I apologize for failing to let you educate me
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zerostar Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sorry... I don't see it...
Sorry I just don't see enough evidence that it WAS stolen...

p.s. how many posts do you need to start a thread?
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. In electronic vote stealing
It's very difficult to "see" the evidence. Even if we are given access to the machines, and the software, which we haven't had thus far - they have had plenty of time to cover their tracks. Since I know the level of dishonesty the present administration functions at, it's not a great leap of the imagination to believe votes were stolen electronically. At this point there is only circumstantial evidence, and there may NEVER be evidence, because they've had too much time. What we do have are facts that just don't add up. I have no proof, but something sure does smell fishy, and I'm going by the * administration's track record as well.

The one thing I am sure of is that there is a possibility of electronic vote rigging, and that needs to be changed. Why are some rethugs so against having a paper trail?

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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. You don't see a magician's deception either --
Still you know he tricked you.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
69. If you don't see it, read this:
20 Amazing Facts About Voting in the US

http://nightweed.com/printableusavotefacts.html

Did you know....
1. 80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold and ES&S.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/04280...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diebold


2. There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0916-04.htm

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/04280...


3. The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/private_company.h...

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/04280...


4. The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main63...

http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1647886


5. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S. He became Senator based on votes counted by ES&S machines.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/0...

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/031004Fitrakis/031...


6. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, long-connected with the Bush family, was recently caught lying about his ownership of ES&S by the Senate Ethics Committee.

http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&fil...

http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx

http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000896.php


7. Senator Chuck Hagel was on a short list of George W. Bush's vice-presidential candidates.

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_28/b3689130.htm

http://theindependent.com/stories/052700/new_hagel27.ht...


8. ES&S is the largest voting machine manufacturer in the U.S. and counts almost 60% of all U.S. votes.

http://www.essvote.com/HTML/about/about.html

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/04280...


9. Diebold's new touch screen voting machines have no paper trail of any votes. In other words, there is no way to verify that the data coming out of the machine is the same as what was legitimately put in by voters.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

http://www.itworld.com/Tech/2987/041020evotestates/pfin...


10. Diebold also makes ATMs, checkout scanners, and ticket machines, all of which log each transaction and can generate a paper trail.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

http://www.diebold.com/solutions/default.htm


11. Diebold is based in Ohio.

http://www.diebold.com/aboutus/ataglance/default.htm


12. Diebold employed 5 convicted felons as consultants and developers to help write the central compiler computer code that counted 50% of the votes in 30 states.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,61640,00.html

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/10/301469.shtml


13. Jeff Dean was Senior Vice-President of General Election Systems when it was bought by Diebold. Even though he had been convicted of 23 counts of felony theft in the first degree, Jeff Dean was retained as a consultant by Diebold and was largely responsible for programming the optical scanning software now used in most of the United States.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00191.htm
http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf


14. Diebold consultant Jeff Dean was convicted of planting back doors in his software and using a "high degree of sophistication" to evade detection over a period of 2 years.

http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf


15. None of the international election observers were allowed in the polls in Ohio.

http://www.globalexchange.org/update/press/2638.html

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/10/26/loc_elexoh....


16. California banned the use of Diebold machines because the security was so bad. Despite Diebold's claims that the audit logs could not be hacked, a chimpanzee was able to do it! (See the movie here: http://blackboxvoting.org/baxter/baxterVPR.mov .)

http://wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,63298,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4874190


17. 30% of all U.S. votes are carried out on unverifiable touch screen voting machines with no paper trail.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main63...


18. All -- not some -- but all the voting machine errors detected and reported in Florida went in favor of Bush or Republican candidates.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65757,00.html

http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAftermath04/ThreeRe...

http://www.rise4news.net/extravotes.html

http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=N...

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00227.htm


19. The governor of the state of Florida, Jeb Bush, is the President's brother.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/7...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10544-20...


20. Serious voting anomalies in Florida -- again always favoring Bush -- have been mathematically demonstrated and experts are recommending further investigation.

http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAftermath04/ThreeRe...

http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/governmen...

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/tens_of_thousands...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2004/110904.html

http://uscountvotes.org /

And this:

How They Could Steal the Election This Time by Ronnie Dugger, where he discusses all the voting machine companies. (Thanks for your post; you are in an extremely valuable postition to do some crucial educating.)

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20040816&s=du...

And this:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/dec2003/vote-d24.shtm...

US voting machines: Will 2004 elections be electronically rigged?
By Alex Lefebvre
24 December 2003
Back to screen version | Send this link by email | Email the author

Recent revelations about US voting machinery companies and their products raise serious questions about the integrity of the electoral process in the US, as well as in other countries. These companies, which have intimate ties to the US right wing, operate with no real outside supervision. According to information that has emerged, their products’ safety designs are so poor that they offer many opportunities to rig elections, especially for well-connected insiders.

The crucial issue has been the transition from paper or mechanical balloting to electronic balloting. In many electronic balloting systems, voters’ information is simply stored electronically (known as Direct Recording Election, or DRE), as opposed to printing out a paper ballot that the voter can then check to see if the ballot matches his intentions. However, voting systems corporations generally claim that the software code that records votes is proprietary, and therefore deny outside personnel access to the code. When candidates or organizations have sued for the right to access the code, judges have ruled in favor of the voting systems corporations. The companies have also threatened to void warranties for the machines if they are inspected.

Voters who cast their ballots using any of a number of electronic voting systems have no way to check that their votes have been properly recorded. A New York election commissioner, Douglas Kellner, said: “Using electronic voting machines to count ballots is akin to taking all the paper ballots and handing them over to a couple of computer tech people to count them in a secret room, and then tell us how it came out. This is not an acceptable way of conducting elections in a democracy.”

The democratic qualifications of the pre-DRE voting in the US should not be overstated. There have been numerous cases of elections rigged via manipulation of other voting machinery systems, or by altogether different means. However, the scope of unverifiability and the centralized, secretive nature of the tallying process create the conditions for an unprecedented attack on the public’s democratic right to have its vote counted.

The Florida state primary elections of 2002, in which Jim McBride defeated former attorney general Janet Reno for the Democratic gubernatorial nomination, provided an example of the type of electoral irregularities that can be expected with DRE voting. Vote tallies in several precincts of Miami-Dade and Broward counties aroused Reno’s suspicion, and she asked Professor Rebecca Mercuri, an expert in computer sciences and voting machine technology, to investigate.

In an interview with Salon, Mercuri said: “She called me because they saw the number rolling out of the machines, and they figured something was screwy. You would have places where there were over 1,300 and there would be like one vote for governor.” When asked about the process, the voting machinery supplier, Election System and Software (ES&S), sent a technician to recover the lost votes. Mercuri commented: “Basically ES&S comes in and they’ve got some sort of tool they stick in some part of the machine and they pull some data out of it. How can you trust that?”


The voting systems industry’s political and criminal connections

The voting machinery industry is dominated by a few large corporations—Election Systems & Software (ES&S), Diebold and Sequoia. ES&S machines count between 55 and 60 percent of votes cast in the US; Diebold and ES&S machines put together count about 80 percent of US votes.

ES&S, formerly American Information Systems, enjoys impeccable conservative credentials and links to the clerical-fascist right. Its 1993-1994 CEO and 1992-1995 chairman, Chuck Hagel, became a Republican senator from Nebraska in 1996 and won his re-election in 2002 in elections where votes were counted entirely on ES&S machines. Although Hagel sold his entire stake in American Information Systems before becoming a candidate, he kept a $5 million stake in its parent company, the McCarthy Group. Hagel failed to disclose this fact on congressional documents.

ES&S also enjoyed the financial support of far-right California billionaire Howard Ahmanson. He provided capital to brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich, the founders of ES&S precursor American Information Systems. Bob Urosevich now heads the election division of Diebold, and Todd Urosevich is a top executive at ES&S. Ahmanson also funded the Chalcedon Foundation, a leading institution of the Christian Reconstructionist movement, which advocates the establishment of Christian theocracy and Old Testament law in the US, including the death penalty for homosexuals.

Diebold is largely controlled by staunch Republicans. Besides Urosevich, Diebold’s current CEO Walden O’Dell is a leading fundraiser for George Bush’s re-election campaign; he recently declared he was “committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year.” During the 2000 and 2002 election campaigns, Diebold donated over $200,000 exclusively to the Republican Party.

Sequoia is largely controlled by the British cash-printing firm De La Rue. Its management has a remarkable record of dishonesty: executives Phil Foster and Pasquale Ricci were convicted in 1999 of paying Louisiana commissioner of elections Jerry Fowler an $8 million bribe to buy their voting machines. These convictions took place in the context of a massive election scandal in Louisiana involving connections with organized crime, in which Sequoia executives gave immunized testimony against state officials. Ricci in particular was suspected of having mob links.

Sequoia is also linked to the Bush family: De La Rue’s corporate parent, private equity firm Madison Dearborn, is a partner of the Carlyle Group, the investment firm that employs the current president’s father, former president George Herbert Walker Bush.


The 2002 Help America Vote Act: Bush administration spreads DRE voting

After the theft of the 2000 election, the Bush administration tried to blunt opposition to its undemocratic installation by passing a voting reform act. The bill, titled Help America Vote Act (HAVA), finally passed in October 2002, shortly before the 2002 election cycle. It rallied the support of several liberal political organizations, notably Public Citizen and the League of Women Voters.

The legislation requires that electronic voting systems be in place for the next presidential election of 2004. It includes $4 billion in funding for states to replace voting equipment—funds that would go straight from Congress and the Bush administration to their backers in the voting machinery industry. The bill did not directly indicate which voting machinery should be adopted. However, the amount of funding it provided per precinct—$3,200—was enough to fund DRE machines (which cost $3,000-$4,500), but not optical scanners, the main competitors of DREs. Optical scanners, in which voters fill out bubble sheets, cost $4,500-$6,000 apiece and are less accessible to the handicapped.

Moreover, although HAVA specified that voting machinery should meet certain standards, these standards have not yet been published due to the failure of the Republican-controlled Congress to appoint a commission. The standards may not be in place until 2006, at which point states will already be under obligation to have purchased new equipment. Other legal loopholes exploited by the voting machine companies include selling machines that have the capacity to print out paper ballots after the election is finished as machines that “create a paper trail.” However, as these machines often do not print out ballots that the voter himself inspects, this distinction is specious.

States are still in the process of attempting to reach HAVA compliance, and information on what systems will be in use during the elections is spotty. However, 36 states have accepted HAVA funds and plan to replace substantial portions of their voting equipment. Three states (Alabama, Alaska, and Maryland) have not applied for HAVA funding, but Maryland is considering updating its equipment to all-Diebold DRE voting with no paper trail features. Eleven states—Arkansas, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Maine, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Utah, Vermont, Virginia and West Virginia—have not yet decided whether to apply for HAVA funds.


Security flaws in DRE voting

A bitter controversy has emerged over the reliability and security of DRE voting. DRE voting systems have many proponents: voting systems corporations and their backers, handicapped organizations that view DRE voting as more accessible, and liberal groups claiming concern for possible disenfranchisement of poorer voters as a result of using antiquated machinery. However, work by a large number of people—investigative journalists, computer security professionals and students, and voting industry workers—has shown that current DRE voting systems have massive and critical security flaws.

Not least among these are the risk of computer fraud by the voting industry itself. Although counties require companies’ software and machinery to pass tests, there is no way to prove that the company uses that same software on election day. In fact, Diebold has already been caught secretly switching code after its machines had been tested in Alameda County, California, according to a November 6 story in the Oakland Tribune. Diebold workers also reported that the company switched software in Georgia between tests and the 2002 elections.

These concerns are compounded by the fact that most DRE systems—including all ES&S machines—have internal modems connecting them to external computers. Hackers able to decipher voting machinery code or voting industry programmers could thus issue instructions to the voting machines during or after the elections, after testing of the machines had taken place.

David Dill, a computer science professor at Stanford University, commented: “The ability to install patches or new software that wasn’t certified has many risks, including the introduction of new bugs and more opportunities for tampering. It is even more risky if different patches can be installed at the last minute in particular jurisdictions. This opens the possibility of customized tampering by people who know exactly which races they want to affect, or bugs that are even less likely to be caught because they occur only in a small number of locations. Of course, even if the certified code is frozen, it is easy to think of ways that undetectable back-doors could be installed in the software so that someone at the election site could choose the winner of the election.”

Perhaps the most damning revelation came in January 2003: voting activists discovered that much of Diebold’s code for its election machinery had been available for an unspecified amount of time on a public, insecure ftp server. Anyone who knew about the server could thus download and examine the code, or even modify it and send it back to the Diebold server. According to blackboxvoting.com, the available files included hardware and software specifications, the central vote-counting program, and “replacement files” for Diebold and Windows software supporting the vote-counting program. Blackboxvoting.com later revealed that Sequoia files were also available on a public ftp server.

Some of the available Diebold files were particularly damaging from the point of view of computer security: they included diagrams of communications links, passwords, encryption keys, testing protocols and simulators.

Computer scientists at Johns Hopkins and Rice universities published an analysis of sections of the publicly available Diebold code. It is available at http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf . The report found many substantial flaws in Diebold’s DRE technology. Firstly, voters validate their identity by presenting a “smart card” electronic identity card that turns itself off once the voter has voted. However, the report found that it would be simple and inexpensive to buy a similar card and program it to allow a voter to vote as many times as he wanted. Poll workers would have similar opportunities to directly and unverifiably tamper with vote totals.

The report also found that the transmission systems between voting machines and central computers were non-encrypted, allowing for easy modifications of vote totals by hackers while such messages are in transit. It noted that the use in the election programming of C++, a programming language known for its relative vulnerability to hacking, indicated the company’s unserious approach to computer security.

Perhaps most importantly, the report found “no evidence of any change-control process that might restrict a developer’s ability to insert arbitrary patches to the code. Absent such processes, a malevolent developer could easily make changes to the code that would create vulnerabilities to be later exploited on Election Day.”

Diebold’s response to the charges was to claim that one of the report’s authors, Avi Rubin, had a conflict of interest, as he held stock in a smaller, rival voting-machinery company, and to threaten lawsuits against web sites posting its code for evaluation. The state of Maryland, which is preparing to equip itself solely with Diebold electoral machinery, hired SAIC, a defense contractor with CIA ties, to evaluate the security of its software. SAIC’s heavily redacted public report agreed with most of the Johns Hopkins/Rice report’s technical findings, but speciously argued that its understanding of Diebold’s source code was flawed and that the state of Maryland’s “voting environment” would prevent any vote-tampering.

Key questions, to which there are still no definite answers, include: Was this remarkable breach of security a complete oversight, or were there elements inside Diebold who deliberately allowed the files to be placed where outside operatives could find them? Who accessed the Diebold files? What, if any, changes were made? More generally: Do right-wing political operatives in the US now have the ability to electronically fix elections by tampering with voting software?
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moggie12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
96. Hi Zerostar
I started two weeks ago and it took about 15 or so posts, I think.

As you may have noticed, people at DU are still very, very upset about Bush's re-election. Like the author, I believe votes could be stolen. Like you, I don't see evidence that they were. This is a very unpopular position! I personnally like the "General Discussion: Politics" category. They get into some really great policy and political discussions. If you have questions, people actually answer them & they know a lot of political history, etc. (I've asked people for articles/sources for info and they almost always oblige). Have fun on DU.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. Please! You haven't failed anyone...
they have failed us by refusing to THINK for themselves and use their cognitive abilities to REASON! I am a teacher...you can only inspire the willing! Know that you have changed the viewpoint and opinions of many...you are not responsible for the people who CHOOSE IGNORANCE over an educated, informed TRUTH! Do not despair...there are many "students" out there yearning for this truth and knowledge. Keep teaching! They need you! Never, ever give up on the people out there who search for answers! They are our only hope! PEACE!!
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Niche Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
20. Be Free, those of us who have been here know this...
I honestly think that the freeps came over here and just nailed this forum with shit (loved some nutty talk yesterday by pukies about all the "X File" jazz - created I'm sure by freeps). Those of us on it, know everyone is and was working to gather save and educate... Thanks for fighting. I'm filled (as well as my hard drive) with knowledge thanks to DU...
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
22. I think you're missing the point.
It's not that we don't realize our votes could be stolen, it's that we think that Bush legitimately got more votes than Kerry. It's possible to believe both.

I know the system can be corrupted, but I don't think that's why Bush won. I think he won for the simple reason that more people voted for him.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. much evidence W vote padded in safe red and blue states
so that this time he 'wins' popular vote and many believe 'more people voted for him'.



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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #42
63. He padded by 3 million votes?
That's one hell of a feat.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #63
68. Electronic counting machines
Are like having computers alone doing air traffic control without human oversight.

In actuallity, the computers padded the vote by at least 4 million. Not really a big feat. Try dealing with 120 million numbers, and see how easy it is to screw up the books. The Enron corporation showed us how easy it is. Shoot, they are just the best/worst example of number padding. Enron padded billions of numbers.

It's quite amazing to see the outpouring of faith some people have in the election process. It's almost as if the computer is God, and if the computer says 54 million, well then that's all you need to know. "Bow, yee, before the computer, for it never lies, and is always right".

Sad.

Another analogy of the use of computers to air traffic control: Imagine a hundred different systems being used around the country to control air traffic?

That's exactly what we had in the vote count, a hundred or more ways of counting the votes, a hundred different styles of bookeeping. And you want us to have faith in the results?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. I'm certainly not defending the system.
It's definitely broken.

I fall into the "irregularities" camp rather than the "fraud" camp, however. I think it's a stretch to say that the vote was manipulated by 3-4 million votes.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. Then I have failed to educate you.
Or, you are un-educateable.

"It's definitely broken".... Now, we are getting somewhere.

"You think it's a stretch".... durn, I thought the Enron example would have been good enough for you to realize how easy it is to manipulate millions of numbers. Of course, if you think Enron, too, was fair and square, it wouldn't work as an example.

Well, what about computers alone running ATC without your eyes counting?
Did I get anywhere with that example?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. No, we just see it differently.
It was never your "job" to educate me.

There have always been voting irregularities. There has always been the possibility of outright fraud. Both are perennial problems. Both need to be addressed.

I feel that most of the problems have to do with errors and procedural issues, not intentional fraud.


Your ATC scenario makes sense, but not in the way I think you intended. Yes, I believe the voting system needs to be improved. Yes, I know the dangers of leaving people out of the loop. That's not where our difference lies - we disagree about the extent of intentional fraud. I just don't feel it was 3-4 million votes' worth.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Not my Job?
Oh, yes, it is. You see, in a democracy, education, and information dissemination, is every citizen's job. Especially given the fact the press isn't doing it's job.

Noticed that you continue to ignore the Enron example of manipulating, not millions, but billions, of numbers.

Oh, but you may feel that Enron was not intentional? Ok. <snicker>
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Enron succeeded because of a lack of oversight.
The election process falls under quite a bit of scrutiny - from many different groups. I believe there's a huge difference.

You may see it as your "job" to present information, but I disagree that it's your job to "educate" people (or, at least, I disagree that you haven't done your job if the information has been presented and some still choose to hold an opinion different from yours).
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #80
83. Bingo!
"A lack of oversight"

So, the division is this: You have faith in the oversight, and we don't.

You believe that a hundred different operating systems can accurately tabulate billions of numbers, overnight. We don't.

Scrutiny: We, who are scutinizing the elections -- as best we can against all manner of obstruction -- claim it was stolen. We Believe.

The scrutinizers are trying to educate and inform, using real science, yet you still have faith in what the perps tell you? Ok, fine.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. That's about the size of it.
I don't believe that the corruption was as widespread as you seem to claim BECAUSE of the level of oversight. Both parties had safeguards in place. There was a heightened level of awareness (and scrutiny) because of the potential for fraud.

Isolated incidents? Sure.

3-4 million votes' worth (all in Bush's favor)? I just don't see it.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. Hey, I have this bridge for sale, cheap!
Or do you prefer oceanfront property?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. I'll trade you for some tinfoil...
:)
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #77
91. all you have to do is shift 2-4 votes in 100 and you've got 3M or more.
We're talking about the whole country here. Let's say it was done by using Bush as a "default" so that any mistake a voter made automatically defaulted to Bush (over-vote, under-vote, etc.). The number of such errors per 100 votes is probably in that range alone. I admit there are other things that were done too, but I don't think any of these other things were even needed. The computers could have shifted the election by themselves this time. 80% of the vote remember was counted on DREs and even in many places where other means were used to vote, the counting was done with central tabulators provided by Diebold, et al.

Use your common sense. Are you telling me you think Kerry won a smaller percentage of the votes than Gore did? After 4 years of the hell this admin put the country thru? After the evidence that all the changes in demographics between 2000 and 2004 favored the Dems? After the exit polls uniformly registered Kerry as the winner? Do you believe in the exit polls?

What's your reason to believe the election was NOT fraudulent? It seems to me that it would be harder to support that allegation than the other.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #91
98. Yes, but you have to do that EVERYWHERE.
...across different voting machinery and watchdog groups. AND you'd have to do it under the noses of the opposition Party.

The computer software was certified. Yes, individual instances of error or fraud may have existed, but in EVERY precinct?

I DO think that Kerry won a smaller percentage of the votes than Gore. People may have not warmed to Gore, but they certainly didn't warm to Kerry and they were voting in a more prosperous time in 2000. It's my observation that, in times where the populace feels threatened, they vote first for security. While most of us here at DU feel that Bush has DEcreased our security, the average American feels differently. Bush consistently polled higher on terrorism issues.

I also feel that this country is in a conservative swing and will continue to be for a while.

I didn't say that no fraud existed. I think it's probably safe to say that it exists in every election. However, I believe that Bush did recieve more legitimate votes than Kerry.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. You think it's safe to say?
That is hilarious! Where are you, at an old ladies luncheon? "It's safe to say .... fraud existed" Hahaha

There's proof right there you are not a paid insurgent. No way would such an idiotic statement clear your handlers. Or would it?

No matter. Even though you work for the agency that washed it hands of flight control on 9/11, and you are as minority as can be: "I believe that Bush did receive more legitimate votes", your beliefs are your's, and your's alone.

However, given that you never own up to the facts, and have remained on DU for as long as you have, I must say, you really have done well for your side.

Enron? "Lack of oversight". But elections were well overseen?
Voting machine software? "Certified" (another bogus statement... prove it)
Polls? "Believe". Except exit polls.

You are something, MertiocATC
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #63
71. Only 11 votes per precinct in OH = the margin of victory n/t
Vote padding or switching spread out could easily equal 3 million
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #63
99. a few each precinct.....in safe red or blue states so no questions asked
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. See Post #98
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sportndandy Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
24. Not accepted. Get back to work.
And Thanks.
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Mistwell Donating Member (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's "Could Be' vs. "Certain it was"
The thing is, I believe my vote COULD BE stolen, and MIGHT HAVE BEEN stolen this time, but I am not CERTAIN it was stolen.

I'm looking for a lot more proof than I have seen. Blatantly flawed exit poll data being called extremely reliable, data that runs directly contrary to the theory that the vote was stolen, allegations of fraud that go uninvestigated and get dropped because they might go AGAINST our side, and a host of people I do trust (Bill Clinton probably topping the list, along with a large number of others) who say loud and clear that they think Bush won fair and square, all contribute to my logical and rationale belief that the vote might NOT have been stolen as well.

So, you have not failed in your task of educating us in thinking that votes CAN be stolen...you've failed in proving it actually DID happen this time.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. So, you do Believe?
But you are willing to give GWB the benefit of the doubt?

You believe that GWB, et al, wouldn't use the open door to get inside and rob the place?

Ok, fine. If that's how you feel about the whole situation: That they "Coulda, woulda, but they didn't" then I have failed to educate and inform you.

That's life. Just wishing it didn't effect my freedom so much.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. So just how do you get the proof that satisfies you?
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 06:57 PM by davidgmills
If you think you will get it from the courts, you are sorely mistaken. Take it from 27 years of experience in the courts, that courts are not the answer. Are the courts capable of checking every precinct in the country? Hardly. Are the courts even capable of understanding the technical aspects of computer software and hardware? Hardly. Can citizen groups afford hundreds of election contests even if it were able to be proven? Very doubtfully.

The burden should not be on the citizens to prove that our election process is corrupt. It is a burden they will never meet.

The process should be so transparent that even a child can understand what has happened. That burden to make it so should fall on the government.
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Not a Sheep Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Disagree with one point.....
"Take it from 27 years of experience in the courts, that courts are not the answer.... Are the courts even capable of understanding the technical aspects of computer software and hardware? Hardly."

I don't agree that courts are hardly capable of understanding these issues. While I do beleive our court system needs a major overhaul, surely the technical aspects of computer software and hardware can be understood. Courts deal with a variety of highly technical cases.
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Mistwell Donating Member (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. Uh yeah
I'm an attorney. I'm perfectly familiar with Courts.

I've reviewed the evidence. That which we have allows for a GREAT deal of doubt. And persistant intentional blindness to blatant holes in our own evidence and arguements doesn't help the matter.

The burden IS on us, once Ohio certified their vote, the BIPARTISAN groups agreed they saw no fraud, and THE CANDIDATE HIMSELF says publcially and repeatedly that there was no fraud. That's PLENTY to shift the burden to us. And it's a burden we have not met.

We SHOULD have a process that is very transparent, but we do not. We need to prove fraud with the system we had during this election, not the system we wish we had during the election. And, to me, we have not. I suspect fraud. I believe it might have been fraud. But I am far from knowing it.
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Not a Sheep Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. EXCELLENT points Mistwell. /eom
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #25
78. The "could-be's" don't seem to want an investigation.
they're too busy worring about being embarassed by the "certain-it-was"s.
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Not a Sheep Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #78
94. I want an investigation so your comment doesn't apply to me. /eom
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Mistwell Donating Member (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #78
97. I want an investigation
Hey now, let me be clear. I *DO* want an investigation into election fraud (across the board, no matter who did the fraud, and no matter what state or district it is in).

I was simply addressing this certainty of fraud versus belief but with doubts issue.
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bardgal Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
28. I have no doubt this happened. I have felt like Cassandra, screaming
for the last four years, with people shaking their heads at me, finding me pathetic in what they feel are my overactive imaginitive fantasies....

Even when I show them how how to easy it make a computer do one thing in one room, and have something very different get recorded at the server in another room......

helloooooooooo

no. I'm still Cassandra, and the Trojan Horse still contains it's evil, but the people of Troy think that e-voting is a Gift From The Gods, and have welcomed it, and brought it within the safety of the city walls....

..... I continue to scream, but they're still not listening... and I will still be raped by Ajax, forced to become Agamemnon's concubine and die at the hands of his humiliated wife..... but by the time one person sees my truth.... it will still be too late.... the damage is done.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. They've heard you
Read some of the comments the Senator's spoke on Jan. 6. They heard you.
They heard a lot of us. They became educated and informed because of us all.

It just bugs me that on DU, there are some who are still not Believers.
Some around here actually continue to have Faith in the design we are fighting to change.

The one's that really matter, our congress, they have a damn good idea, finally. They heard you.
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blueatheart Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
29. I believe, theres a lot of circumstantial evidence,
that we could not prove because nobody got to look at the books, or the code, that too much time went by even if "we" could now. I believe if it was thoroughly investigated fraud would be evident.
Scott Peterson was convicted on a lot less evidence.

I believe if the media gave election fraud more air time, more citizens would have protested then more senators / congress would have stood up.

I have no absolute proof. I did see some "strange things" here in Corrine Brown's district. Poll workers stuffing ballots in tabulator, extremely low black turnout, black man with Kerry shirt being turned away. Shrub "winning" in a very high black/low income/precinct, Kerry signs all over the precinct.

I believe in my heart, my common sense also tells me, that there was fraud.
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
30. BeFree, we need educators over in the Election Reform Group
(We're still working on a name. LOL)

Come on over. YOu can help us out, I'm sure, and we'd be glad to have a researcher/educator.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=269011&mesg_id=269011
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
32. be free some people do not wnat to be free
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 06:33 PM by seabeyond
they are fearful of or have their own agenda, whatever that they cannot willnot allow themselves to see.

i have those around me that proudly tell me they dont watch the news, they refuse to be informed, yet when i tell them factually, just the facts of some of the things that happened, things easily to see, learn know, they refuse it

i had one girl harping on bush being a christian. i tell her he is not, doesnt walk the talk. she says, we are all sinners. that gets to be said of a christian for excuse but all hte rest they are just evil. so i tell her, 1988 bush at the republican convention asked by reporter what do you and your father talk about when it isnt politics,..............his reply, pussy

she was appalled. she gasps and says to me, why would you tell me that, you know how that would make me see bush. then immediately went to do you believe everything you read on net. i tell her, there is a video, you can watch and see and hear the words come out of his mouth. she refuses

she wont watch. she simply refuses. and she can put a check there with no guilt, because she can say i dont know

brother does it with his hate of gays. i tell him two of my husbands brothers are gay. out loud he says to me, well i have never met them, so i dont have to say they are gay, so in his mind he doesnt have to resolve, husband and family good people, man, that would mean he would have to say, maybe gays arent evil, dont want to let go

so,.........to say election is stolen is to say kerry won. democrats did well. was a groundswell movement. we did good. we did right against all odds. yes we have dems that refuse that picture because tey really dont want to see that what we did in 2004 was a good thing. and they dont want the hopelessness of fraudulent election, might me we no longer have power

truth scare them, would rather live in story created. we have a whole nation of stories to be told. bushco's are really good at seeing this in the people. people go to it too easily
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kitkat65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
33. I voted on the Danehar touch screen machine and have no idea where that
vote went. And I believe it could have very easily been stolen. Hard to believe I waited in line an hour and a half for that, but I did.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Danehar? Do you mean Diebold? (nt)
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kitkat65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. I think Danehar is the model
Diebold the manufacturer
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. that name didn't pop up in a google search... for what it's worth (nt)
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kitkat65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #50
62. hmm, maybe i'm spelling it wrong. i'm almost positive it's a danehar
they're pretty darn old by the looks of them
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #62
73. Danaher Controls = Franklin County, OH...
http://vevo.verifiedvoting.org/vendors/danaher/

Danaher Controls is the type of machine used in the suburb of Columbus where Bush got an extra 4000 votes that has never been explained. In fact the reason it was so obvious is because that precinct only had 650 voters.

Shortly after Nov. 2 a DUer actually wrote a program that came up with that exact number of extra Bush votes.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. Link please, rosebud
If there is any way you could find that DU page again...... it could be a nice sled to slide on. <grin>
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #76
81. Believe me I tried. It was only a few days after the election. The person
who posted it was a programmer and they even posted the code. And then other programmers weighed in on it. Once stuff hits the archives on DU I think it is impossible to search for.

Of course the program was a screw up because it produced more votes than voters and that is why the discrepancy was so obvious. Perhaps someone else remembers or someone else could write the program that produces those results. The precinct was Gahana.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #81
84. Another thing I remember about that post was the programmer stated
that when software fails the numbers are astronomical and they are reaaly obvious. The + 4000 Bush votes were a red flag for that reason.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. Found it! Yeah Google
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 11:56 AM by rosebud57
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x48519

snip

I decided to write a small vote counting program, and add in a function to steal every 10th vote. Once that was working I'd introduce a small error and see if the results came close the Ohio results reported by AP.

The program below is the result.

As you will see, there is one line of code that is supposed to add a stolen vote to Bush's total, and should be written as:

b = b + 1;

but (I theorize) it was mis-typed as:

b = b + k;

snip

So instead of adding one stolen vote to Bush's total, it adds the running total of Kerry votes to Bush's total. Whoops!

The output from the program with the typo in place is:

starting election
Election results: b: 4258 k: 260 o: 13
(the actual votes: b: 336 k: 288 o: 14)

The output from the program with the typo corrected is:

starting election
Election results: b: 365 k: 260 o: 13
(the actual votes: b: 336 k: 288 o: 14)

So the intent was to shift 29 votes from other candidates to Bush, but the one-line programming mistake gives him an extra 3922 votes.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Good work, rosebud!
Now, you know what you must do?

Weave that thread into a whole new cloth. Yep, post it again. I'll kick it.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #62
74. Try Danaher Controls
Yes, they are ancient machines, and in fact, are outlawed in some states. Yes, they are still used, but if you wanted to buy a machine similar to those Danaher Control machines, you'd be breaking the law.

These computerized vote counters are the central part of our current Faith-based election process. Your vote is spirited away, and all we have is faith that it will be counted.

I, for one, have lost faith in the process. I want proper accounting methods employed so that I know my vote was counted.
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kitkat65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #74
95. (*&#^%@!P(*&$% - I wish I had voted absentee
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KatieB Donating Member (431 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. Our conclusion in NC is paper ballot, manual counts-all the way up
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 08:58 PM by KatieB
Our state legislature is in a committee process to decide what kind of system the state will recommend. We are trying to break the myth that manual counting is slow and inacurrate. You just need people - but it's MORE accurate than these darn criminal machines.
At the Federal level, with a Republican majority in both houses, I doubt they will be able to get federal legislation passed - Frist and Hastert refused to let any offered legislation on the floor in the last session. We'll have to do it state by state!
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Not a Sheep Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
36. Hmmmm,......
"There are far too many of you, right here on DU, who still don't believe that your vote could be stolen."

I've read posts from individuals who don't believe votes were stolen but I don't know that they were specifically saying that they "don't believe that your vote could be stolen" as you say. There's a big difference between "were stolen" and "could be stolen".

"You continue to believe that the election was fair and legal. I apologize for having failed to educate you."

Just because someone has a different opinion from you doesn't mean you personally failed to "educate" them.

Regardless, I really don't see what is wrong with having different opinions on these issues. It is extremely unlikely that everyone on this forum is going to agree with each other concerning all aspects on what has happened over the last couple months.





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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Could be stolen?
So, you are willing to give the benefit of doubt to bush and gang?

This is kind of elemental, but seems like everyone already knew we couldn't trust the bush gang any further than.....?

It is a question of Faith. Who could still have any Faith in the election process? Are you trying to get us to believe it was fair and square? Are you asking us to share your Faith in bushco?
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Not a Sheep Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. I don't think that pertains to my reply......
"So, you are willing to give the benefit of doubt to bush and gang?"

"Are you trying to get us to believe it was fair and square? Are you asking us to share your Faith in bushco?"

I think if you read my post again (copied below) you'll see that I don't say that I believe the election was fair or that I have faith in this administration. I was specifically disagreeing with statements in your post.

==============================================================

"There are far too many of you, right here on DU, who still don't believe that your vote could be stolen."

I've read posts from individuals who don't believe votes were stolen but I don't know that they were specifically saying that they "don't believe that your vote could be stolen" as you say. There's a big difference between "were stolen" and "could be stolen".

"You continue to believe that the election was fair and legal. I apologize for having failed to educate you."

Just because someone has a different opinion from you doesn't mean you personally failed to "educate" them.

Regardless, I really don't see what is wrong with having different opinions on these issues. It is extremely unlikely that everyone on this forum is going to agree with each other concerning all aspects on what has happened over the last couple months.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Didn't say you said...
...much of anything. See that question mark? IIRC, it means the sentence preceeding that question mark makes the whole sentence into a question.

I asked you three questions:

"So, you are willing to give the benefit of doubt to bush and gang?"

"Are you trying to get us to believe it was fair and square? Are you asking us to share your Faith in bushco?

Usually, when a questions are asked, they're answered. That's how discussions take shape.

Basically this is what I am saying about doubters: If they doubt the research on DU, they must instead have faith in the bushco produced results. DU vs: bushco. Whose side are you on? There really is no grey area, this is a black or white issue.

Ok, now that's four questions I'd like to see answers too.
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Not a Sheep Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. My answers.........
"Usually, when a questions are asked, they're answered. That's how discussions take shape."

So we've moved on from my original replies to your original post? What happened to that discussion? I feel as though that discussion is being skipped over and now we're onto something else. How about going back and reponding to the points I brought up in my inital reponse?
======================================================

My answers to your new questions:

"So, you are willing to give the benefit of doubt to bush and gang?"

Are you asking if I'm I willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they did not commit fraud? Is that the "benefit of the doubt" you're referring to? No, I'm not willing to simply give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they didn't. I don't like the Bush administration and haven't trusted them from the begining. I definitely think someone (or mulitple people) on their side could have comitted fraud and intentionally done things to suppress those voting for Kerry (minorities in particular). From the stories and evidence I've read about (including the actions of Blackwell), it seems that something did happen. However, I'm not someone who will say I know Kerry won or I know millions of votes were stolen via electionic voting machines. The truth is, we can't prove they comitted fraud at this point.

"Are you trying to get us to believe it was fair and square?"

No.

"Are you asking us to share your Faith in bushco?"

No, see my first answer for my feeling concerning Bush and his administration.

"If they doubt the research on DU, they must instead have faith in the bushco produced results. DU vs: bushco. Whose side are you on? There really is no grey area, this is a black or white issue."

Your statements above commit a debate/logic fallacy known as bifurcation or the "black and white" fallacy. Bifurcation is when someone presents a situation as having only two alternatives, when in fact other alternatives exist or can exist.

You phrase your argument so that if someone doubts the info on DU, they have faith in "the bushco produced results". Those are not the only two options for people. And why say, "the bushco produced results"? You are assuming that the results were produced by Bushco and that simply is not a fact. It is your opinion.

Your making this a DU vs Bushco, black and white issue and that isn't reality. It is not a black and white issue. When you do that and say "whose side are you on?", you actually remind me of Bush's "You're either with us or you're against us".


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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. Good dancing
It must be hell to not be able to decide which side you are on. I really, truly, feel sorry for you. I, too, have been in situations where I couldn't make up my mind, and it was hell.

But this situation is a no-brainer. They could, they would, and they did. They stole the election. There is enough evidence available today for me to make that decision.

Helping too make that decision: the facts that they are keeping secret the code, obstructing the recounts, and still denying selection 2000.

They had motive, and opportunity, and their past actions indicate they will stop at nothing.

This is a simple case of black and white, for me, and I aplogize that I can't educate you enough, though, indeed, it may not be my fault.

Ya know, Mr. Sheep, you present no evidence contradicting DU's assertions, you merely contradict. All you present is faith, faith in bushco. Sad.

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Not a Sheep Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #66
92. I hope others here read our full exchange..........
You started a thread and I responded to specific things you said. But then instead of sticking to that discussion, you bring up new questions. I answer the new questions and ask you to go back to the original discussion but again you aviod it.

I take the time to specifically give my opinions on the questions you asked and you say "good dancing", "the situation is a no-brainer" and you feel sorry for me. You say "they stole the election" but that's your opinion. It's not a fact. You accept it as a fact and then are condescending to me because I do not agree.

You say, "There is enough evidence available today for me to make that decision." Fine. But obviously everyone does not see the situation the same way you do. To be condescending to people who disgree not only makes you look bad but accomplishes nothing.
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. I think he's asking you to acknowledge...
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 10:17 PM by euler
...that you can never bring down a president without CONCRETE evidence. You ask me to assume evidence will eventually be identified. Some of us are willing to wait until it's found. That is our difference.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Whitewater
After the expenditure of 70+ million dollars, and with the subsequent manufactured information, Clinton was damn near taken down.

18 minutes of missing tape brought down Nixon.

You say you are willing to wait. Fine. But in the meantime, you seem to be telling us to quit, it's useless. You remind me of the Katherine Blackwells of the world.

Kerry won, of that there is proof, whether you want to see it or not.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
41. Excellent point, BeFree.
But you're not to blame.

"There are none so blind as those who refuse to see."
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sepia_steel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
43. I'm one who believes and knows that
thanks for trying to help others!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
46. Not your fault, obviously. Bit of irony here, I hope
Fuck 'em. They'll catch up eventually. Keep on plugging. Then people will appologize to you. It's already happening with me among my non DU friends. Just have them look at the Conyers report. Hang in there!
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
52. Denial is one of the stages of grief.
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 10:18 PM by McCamy Taylor
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Agreed. The sooner we stop denying that Bush won, the better.
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Debbie13 Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
102. He may have gotten away with it so far, but he didn't WIN
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
53. After reading this thread, I realize...
...that your failure to educate us, stems from your failure to educate yourself.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Really
What am I lacking, specifically? Educate me.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
60. Remember, the are some bogus "Freepers in Disguise"
Here, basically PR agents, who refuse to listen to evidence and try to make anyone who doubts the official propaganda story seem insane. You can't do anything with those characters! The PR characters hired to discourage real critical discussion are all over the web, it's impossible to prevent some from appearing in any open forum like DU.

Don't worry. You're getting through to the real people here.

;-)
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #60
82. You honestly believe somebody's PAYING people to post on DU?
This "professional disinfo agent" stuff is just silly, IMHO.
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
61. A lot of people realize the election was stolen but
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 12:36 AM by bush_is_wacko
now is the time to let our elected officials do what they do behind the scenes and continue to work on finding evidence and connecting the dots. It is also a time to concentrate on correcting the situation PERMANENTLY. People are just tired of dealing with this stuff day in and day out. As Representative Tubbs-Jones(my hero) said, "my parents didn't raise a fool!" She is a judge a prosecutor and a US representative. She is backed by a lot of people we did not hear speak. I noticed Colorado's new Senator Ken Salazar was sitting behind one of our Democratic speakers in the Senate. He is a former Attorney General with a very good record of prosecution. I hear he met with Clint Curtis on Wednesday. If fraud can be proved we could not ask for better people investigating this issue.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
64. Not your place to take responsibility...Lead a horse to water can't make
it drinkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
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mimitabby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
65. yes, i noticed that
i am taken aback each time a DU says "well, there was no fraud"
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkk
m
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
67. BeFree, I believe!
No one will ever convince me that the last 3 elections weren't stolen. If there are still people who think the elections were "fair" after seeing the evidence that shows otherwise, what more can you do? It's not your fault.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. Thanks, much appreciated, all
According to most of the responses on this thread, it ain't my fault.

I stand educated, I no longer feel it to be a personal failure, but merely a matter of not being able to overcome the faith these various members have for bushco, and computers, or their deep and abiding respect for the M$M.

Man, it feels good to be educated, yet an awful burning in the belly tells me if others still believe in bushco, my freedom is in grave danger.
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
90. Nothing to apologize for. You're not alone.
I doubt if 5% of DU members don't know about the election fraud that was perpetrated in 04 (and started well before then) and will continue to be perpetrated as long as the voting machines are not audited with a hand-count of paper ballots. Where are you coming from? Maybe you are reading too many Freeper posts that are intentionally put in to confuse the issue. It's not the DU-ers who need to know about this; it's the regular people out there, including Repubs. There are even some Repubs who would understand and react positively to information about the fraud. Having hones elections is a bi-partisan issue. Keep up the good work and don't throw up your hands and give up so easily. It might take 4 more years or 20 more years, but won't it be worth it when the day comes that America is a democracy again?
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
93. No failure by me. I agree with you.
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