Bernie Sanders on Hartmann right now talking about yesterday!

[JoMama49]

I listen at radiopower.org

[Jackpine Radical]

1. I really hate it when people do that.

What's being said?

[sabra]

2. Talking about the collapse of the Middle Class...

[SueZhope]

3. thanks sounds good

I am actually listening to Franken..
Its the first time he is actually talking about
this issue LOL

[wicket]

4. what's he saying?

[JoMama49]

5. Bernie is talking about the electronic voting machines, and

how he used yesterday as an opportunity to shed light on the irregularities in Ohio. He says we need to put pressure on congress and our State governments to stop using these machines.

[JoMama49]

6. Hartmann is being much more adamant than is Sanders, although now Bernie

is saying that we need to change our voting systems to ones with a paper trail.

[mycatforpresident]

10. I hope he's stressing

that a paper trail doesn't matter unless the paper is counted, too.

[KansDem]

7. Pardon me, but didn't Sanders vote "nay" yesterday...?

Why did the only Socialist in Congress do this?

[Stew225]

8. because he is a

(pardon the language), first and foremost, politician. Eeeewwww! I hate that word because of what it connotes.

[KittyWampus]

9. What The F*ck Is WRONG WITH DU'ERS? The MAN IS TALKING ABOUT

THE ISSUES... he's in a position (however handicapped by GOP contyrol) to try and DO something about it.

Jesus, get over the infantile tantrums already.

[Cheswick2.0]

11. infantile temper tantrums?

You are are one TYPING IN ALL CAPS! LOL

[SueZhope]

12. everyone is allowed to

express different points of view, that does not mean that those that disagree are
having infantile tantrums :)

[KittyWampus]

13. True, Very True.

[Cheswick2.0]

14. Actually I think you can recognize the temper tantrums

by the screaming. I do not understand the need on some people's part to shut other people up.

[KittyWampus]

23. No Temper Tantrums Are When Infants Scream Out Insensibly

showing a complete lack of reason and self control while being oblivious to what's going on around them.

[Cheswick2.0]

26. recognition is the first part of healing

Good for you

[Straight Shooter]

30. Bwahahahaha!

Good one, Cheswick!

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

38. Yes, If Only Those Engaging Is Unreasonable & Childish Behavior Would

wake the fuck up.

[FreeCajun]

27. Like Rush? ;) n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

36. PS....... Insensibly seems to be the wrong word for your purpose

Insensibly means "numbly" with out feeling. Did you mean nonsensibly?

[KittyWampus]

39. Hmmm, You May Be Right

:think:

:)

[shawcomm]

15. Yesterday wasn't for talking about the issues...

It was about doing something - and he balked.

It wasn't a regular debate, they STOPPED the electoral process and he thought he'd score some political points out of it. Fuck him.

[cali]

17. There is scant evidence of fraud.

Conyers report sure as hell doesn't offer it. Bev Harris didn't. When, and if, such evidence is forthcoming, As a constituent of Sanders, I'm happy with the job Bernie does. If you knew anything about him, you'd know that he's stood for Progressive causes for a long time. I'm satisfied with what he chose to do yesterday. So you can say fuck him until you're blue in the face, if you're not from Vermont, you can't evn vote against him.

[Imnottelling]

20. "Conyers report sure as hell doesn't offer it."??

You know, I'm suspecting that we disagree on a semantic angle but, for what it's worth, I disagree that Conyer's report "sure as hell doesn't offer it(evidence of fraud)".

It's hard to imagine that you actually read all 102 pages of Conyer's report. Of course, Conyers didn't use the word "fraud". That would be clearly a bad move on his part. However, read between the lines. Occam's razor points to fraud as one of the, if not the, most important explanation for many of the "irregularities" that Conyer's points out.


It seems that many people at DU are going to have to wait for a signed or video confession from Karl Rove to be convinced.

[KansDem]

21. One DUer recently summed it up nicely ...

I forgot who it was but the statement went something like:

"The US Congress voted to go to war with Iraq with less evidence than what has come out of Ohio implicating election fraud"

Pardon me if I didn't quite get it right, but truer words are rarely spoken...

[cali]

25. I did read it. All of it.

If he had proof of fraud, he would have offered it. Suggesting fraud and the possibility of fraud aren't proof. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but you need proof.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Imnottelling]

41. Well then, I have one question for you.

If nearly all (please feel free to prove me wrong with examples) of the irregularities ended up favoring GWB then would you still say there are NO indications of fraud?

If the reasons behind the problems in Ohio are merely "malfeasance" (see my below comment), "ignorance, overworked poll workers, machines that malfunctioned, problems with organization, interpreting the law, and not paper trails" in an innocent fashion than you would expect that sometimes (you would hope 50% of the time) Kerry would have benefited from irregularities too. Kerry did not benefit any more than a few trivial times that were later discovered and corrected. GWB overwhelmingly benefited from this badly run election. That is very convenient I would think, even for somebody from Vermont.



BTW, I'm not sure if malfeasance means what you think it means. In this context arguing that there was no "fraud" but there was "malfeasance" is a fine semantic line that I think we should be careful not to walk. Below are definitions from www.dictionary.com.

malfeasance: Misconduct or wrongdoing, especially by a public official.

fraud: 1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain. 2. A piece of trickery; a trick.

[rox63]

42. No access to some evidence

The Dems, Greens, Libs and their lawyers have not been given any access to the things that could actually prove fraud - the machines and their proprietary software code. I think that is the main reason there is very little evidence of fraud in the report.

[Imnottelling]

37. Proof?

The only way Conyers or anybody else can get closer to proof is for an investigation to take place. This seems like a really hard concept for many on DU. Many are asking Conyers to have clear obvious evidence of fraud BEFORE an investigation.

Clearly, the problems that Conyers outlined in the report is enough to warrent further investigation.

It's the same with the exit polls. I don't know what went wrong. Did Mitofsky screw up on accident, did he screw up on purpose (is he lying), were the exit polls just innocently wrong (it's hard to believe), etc. What happened? WHY didn't the exit polls match? I still haven't hear a remotely convincing argument.

[Carolab]

28. Vermont's politicians RULE

Dean, Jeffords, Sanders

I wanna live in VERMONT

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carolab]

33. Yes. Jeffords IS from Vermont. n/t

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carolab]

35. Why?

Dean backed his re-election.

[FreepFryer]

40. I would note one instance - 'Warren County Fraudulent FBI Warning'

There was no 10-out-of-10 warning from the FBI.

There was no FBI agent.

There was no explanation.

There was no paper trail.

There was no media observation of the count.

There was no doubt it was planned.

There was no fraud?

[Jimdish25]

16. If you haven't looked at the evidence Bernie...

...don't expect the listeners to buy into the "no-fraud" argument. If you have looked at the evidence Bernie, how can you not think the election was stolen?

Secondly, we have and are making the correct political argumants. We won the political discussion and always win on the issues. As long as the media and the voting machines are controlled by the right-wing corporatocracy you can win every argument and still get your a$$ kicked.

We sure do give these guys more credit than they deserve.

[Carolab]

29. They need a MAJOR EDUCATION

and it is up TO US to give it to them.

Think about this: John Conyers has known Randi Rhodes for TEN YEARS.

Do you think that has anything to do with his level of understanding of this issue?

[nashville_brook]

18. addressing election fraud isn't necessary and sufficient to beat Bush

but for The People, it is NECESSARY to keep us on the bus. it is a premise of keeping the coalition together.

[Jimdish25]

19. Are you talking about winning elections?

"addressing election fraud isn't necessary and sufficient to beat Bush"

...or beating him at checkers. Why do you think the Republicans have gone to such great lengths and effort to control the voting system?

[nashville_brook]

22. rhetorically -- i'm saying our elected dems need to stay on this...

this fight is for Democracy! it is NECESSARY. we must do this. but it won't be necessary+suffcient for beating bush -- it will take a long time to win back an arm of goverment and we are just getting started in terms of having a voice in the media. but here we are and the FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS is election fraud. this has energized us. this has IDENTIFiED US. this is a movement. it demands attention.

[SueZhope]

24. Thom is great today n/t