My apologies to all of you too!

[RaulVB]

I've failed to communicate the dimension of this crisis...

I've failed to express that there is no way out of this mess...

I've failed to explain how I feel about those "Democratic politicians and opinion leaders" that say they will fight "for election reform" from within the apparatus created by a fascist regime.

I've failed to say how much contempt I feel for those like Franken or Dayton or the corporate media that sponsored a war of aggression and the overturning of the Ukraine election...based on the same damn arguments that they chose to ignore here in the USA.

I've failed to say that I know who among you are Democrats and freepers or Republicans that were sent here by your Party to do some "research"...guys, I know who you are.

Watching C-Span last night, everything was sooo clear:

1. THEY SAY THEY WON BASED ON KERRY'S ACCEPTANCE OF THE RESULTS.

2. THEY KNEW THE ARGUMENTS POSTED ON THIS FORUM. ONE "RETHUG" MICHIGAN CONGRESSWOMAN MADE FUN OF WHAT WAS SAID HERE, REGARDING ROVE'S "MAGIC SPREADSHEETS."

3. THIS REGIME IS ONLY COUNTING IN THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FOR ITS SURVIVAL.

Yes, sorry folks, I'm a foreigner that saw and understood years ago that dialogue and cooperation with those who don't believe in democracy is just impossible...

I regret the fact that you are going to need even more suffering to, finally, get that point...

[nashville_brook]

1. i wish our representative would lurk and research here!

maybe they are... bernie sanders sure isn't. yak.

i think tho, that it only underscores the importance of carrying the debate forward. and, it kinda makes it even more fun. outsider politics (radical democracy) is much more colorful and the music is better. think fleetwood mac vs the clash.

i'm ready. i'm in shape from all the dialogue. this has changed me. it's changed everyone i know. i've brought out all my old work from college and am energized anew. happy freaking new year, ya'll!

i even quit my day job. i have my own damn work to do. i'm lucky not to need the money and honestly, i was (and if you are a regular here; we were) born for this moment. there's power in this shit -- we aren't playing for marbles anymore.

[RaulVB]

6. Keep fighting!

Is worth the effort...

[nashville_brook]

20. and really, i can't think of anything i'd rather be doing

:)

[Jo March]

27. nashville_brook, I've been following your posts

and I am most impressed.

I have started a thread where we have been brainstorming for ideas. We now have them and are looking for volunteers or point people for the tasks.

Would you come on over, take a look and tell me what you think?

Hang on. Let me get the link.

Edited for link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=262387&mesg_id=262387

[nashville_brook]

43. gosh, thanky --

i'm on my way over...

[steve2470]

44. http://mediadiversity.blogspot.com/

check this out, too, when you have time.

[fooj]

2. RaulVB...read this!

Please! You haven't failed anyone...

they have failed us by refusing to THINK for themselves and use their cognitive abilities to REASON! I am a teacher...you can only inspire the willing! Know that you have changed the viewpoint and opinions of many...you are not responsible for the people who CHOOSE IGNORANCE over an educated, informed TRUTH! Do not despair...there are many "students" out there yearning for this truth and knowledge. Keep teaching! They need you! Never, ever give up on the people out there who search for answers! They are our only hope! PEACE!! And yes, you rock!:yourock:

[RaulVB]

5. You are a teacher...

I can't even begin to tell you how much I do appreciate what you do...

Spread the word...the answers to this are in the past.

Thanks for your kind comments.

[FreepFryer]

11. Right on! Soul searching is one thing, but we should be proud and ready...

There is more political judo to come.

Believe in Yourself! That's Where Democracy Starts!

[Joe Chi Minh]

21. I can't see

how they could be so foolish as to think bipartisanship would work against the neocons' bad faith, Tuco. Surely, their strategic thinking could not be so blind as to countenance compromise with them, but rather endless unforgiving battles - like they gave wild Bill, but with compound interest.

[RaulVB]

30. They really believe that things still work like before, companero...

Is a sad thing to watch...

[Jo March]

28. Speaking of education, fooj

Come on over to our thread. We have compiled a list of action tasks and need some help.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=262387&mesg_id=262387

You are most wondermous, fooj!

[HEAVYHEART]

3. All I have to say is shut up!

You rock. We know it and you know, end of story. :)

[RaulVB]

4. You too!

Thanks, pal...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

7. Raul, you have failed at nothing. You have told it the way it is,

and you of all people have had first hand knowledge what we have become. It is the listeners' loss for not opening their eyes to see the words of wisdom/experience you impart.

[RaulVB]

8. Thanks...I just wonder...

Why you see reality and so many of your countrymen/women...do not...

Regards, friend.

[insane_cratic_gal]

13. It's progress

As small you some may believe it to be. It is progress.

Open dialog. We had nothing in 2000. Not one Senator to stand and do the right thing. We got their attention, now we must focus and narrow that attention to achieve the goals.

It means hard work. Writing to Republican Senators, being heard, petitioning congress with our concerns despite being laughed at. To keep fighting despite the odds we know are against us. Despite ridicule, despite those who are deluded by their faith, despite the mockery they will make of us. Still we keep marching on.

You can not give up on 24 hours after just the first stroke has been sounded. There are those who will throw in the towel, but I won't.

[cali]

15. Reality.

Now there's a word fraught with danger for all those who claim to have an exclusive grasp of it. Our world view- and that's what you're talking about here- is formed by the sum total of our individuality and the experiences that have filtered through it. Perspective on any given situation is seen through that singular lens.

[MadisonProgressive]

34. True - and if the senators and congresspeople would spend

8 hours a day here for a month or two, they'd probably see things differently too.

[fooj]

23. Exactly. Well said!

:toast:

[KittyWampus]

9. Apparently I Failed To Explain How Unproductive These Threads Are

how little understanding they actually display.

how unable some DU'ers are to get over their need for instant gratification of their every desire.

how desperately DU'ers need to attack someone other than BUSH and the GOP.

how sad it is that the words our Democrats Senators spoke yesterday fell on deaf ears HERE ON DU.

[RaulVB]

14. Is your right to disagree...

Exercise that right while you can...

Soon, might not be possible.

Regards.

[flyarm]

37. raul well said , its what i fear most...

with my husbands business we have lived in other countires, and the freedom of our voice is what i fear most. I have had our phones tapped in other countires and know what its like to have no rights, albiet not for long periods, but anytime you have fear of speaking on your own phone line, is too long. ( we were not tapped for any bad reason , but because my husband was head vp of union , and they wanted info on union and participants)
out of the country i have caught people "spying " on us and other employees of my husbands business...its one of several reasons i fought so hard to get * out of office...
we never know what we lose until its gone..and in this case its our freedoms we take for granted...the problem with most americans is they don't know what they have...and they will only revolt when its too late i fear.
Thank you for all your work Raul...you owe no one an appology..we as americans are responsible for ourselves, if we choose to educate ourselves we will, if others don't we can't do a dang thing about it but wait, wait for them to be effected in ways they never dreamed possible..those of us who do know, and who have done the work and research, we know that day is coming , and we tried to protect as many as we could, now its up to them...yes we will all pay the price of their complacency...but we tried , we all tried...in our own ways, never ever minimize that...
i always try to remember the phrase..you can take a horse to water, but you can not make the horse drink...
they will learn the hard way..to bad we have to make the trip with them!
raul don't loose faith...if you do, we all loose ..we must be ready for the others to awaken from their deep sleep!!

fly

[RaulVB]

39. Thanks for your kind words...

People like you and your husband motivates me to continue.

Raul

[flyarm]

41. oh do , please do...we need people like you willing to fight! & educate n/

[meganmonkey]

10. Maybe I'm missing your point, but

you seem to think that those of us who aren't devastated about yesterday don't realize how dire the situation is.

I for one am motivated and encouraged by what DID happen. Of course I am disappointed by what DIDN'T happen, but my expectations were pretty reasonable, and I think they were met. It was a miracle that even ONE Senator voted 'Aye', that 31 Reps did, and that dozens spoke in support (sort of) of the issue.

Does that mean I think we won the war? Hell no! But we did pretty good in that battle. Please understand when I say 'WE' I mean the citizens who have been working their asses off on this issue - NOT the Democratic party politicians.

Maybe everyone is devastated because they were in denial before yesterday that on a National level, the Dems ARE republican-lite - BUT we prove every day here at DU that the actual CITIZENS in the Dem party are pretty right on and bad-ass. Personally, I have NEVER felt an affiliation with the Democrats until I got to know the real people here at DU. And yesterday, I got a shred of reassurance that there is a chance for change in the Dem party, that maybe, one by one, they will listen to us and really represent us.

So welcome to Reality - the Democrats are not going to save us all, they are mostly career politicians and we are ususally a footnote in their decision-making processes. BUT WE CAN SAVE OURSELVES!!! We can influence them. And yesterday proved that, because it NEVER would have happened without us.

JMHO.

[FreepFryer]

12. Great post. Very empowering. We can take our power back!

[RaulVB]

16. I am motivated too...

I just don't see the point of "self-inflicted suffering" as acceptable for those who claim to represent the "opposition Party."

Regards.

[meganmonkey]

17. I'm not sure what you mean - please elaborate?

I didn't use either of those phrases in my post - I don't know what context you mean them in :shrug:

[RaulVB]

18. "We can influence them..."

You said it...

Influence those who like to be abused by the goons working for the regime?

Those endorsing "*" yesterday?

Isn't "self-inflicted suffering"?

[meganmonkey]

22. I guess I just don't feel what you feel right now

I can't control what other people do. I can try to influence things, and I think I do a pretty good job trying. Sometimes, especially when working with thousands of others, it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I don't suffer from what I can't control.
I do feel for the victims of the regime, believe me, that's why I fight. They are the ones who suffer, they are the ones I am fighting for.
The situation is pretty absurd, and thinking we can change is is even more absurd.
But I don't give a shit, I am not giving up. I am going to stay positive and do whatever I can to stop babies in Iraq from being blown up, to stop elderly people from calling my office EVERY DAY and explaining that they can't afford food because of the cost of prescription drugs and can I please help them, and so on and so forth.
I am doing everything I can. I sleep like a baby at the end of the day. The politicians? I doubt they sleep real well. And that's their problem.

[Peace Patriot]

24. 124 CONGR voted NO on Iraq war

That's 123 more than voted N0 on Vietnam. Progress. That's why the war profiteers must work so hard to propagandize us, to the point now of, literally, manufacturing consent (creating votes out of thin air), and creating ILLUSIONS of the success of warmongering. They know that the world wants peace, that Americans were moving steadily toward a peaceful and cooperative world view, and that, to deprive the majority here of their true desires, they would have to create fantasy enemies as well. All of which they have done. It's a wonder so many Americans saw through the B.S. and voted 53% to 48% to throw Bush out. (48% Bush's approval rating, 1/1/05. Approval of the war? 43%.)

HOUSE

NAYS (133)
REPUBLICANS (6)
Duncan (TN-02) Houghton (NY-31) Morella (MD-08)
Hostettler (IN-08) Leach (IA-01) Paul (TX-14)

DEMOCRATS (126)
Abercrombie (HI-01) Hastings, A. (FL-23) Neal (MA-02)
Allen, T. (ME-01) Hilliard (AL-07) Oberstar (MN-08)
Baca (CA-42) Hinchey (NY-26) Obey (WI-07)
Baird (WA-03) Hinojosa (TX-15) Olver (MA-01)
Baldacci (ME-02) Holt (NJ-12) Owens (NY-11)
Baldwin (WI-02) Honda (CA-15) Pallone (NJ-06)
Barrett (WI-05) Hooley (OR-05) Pastor (AZ-02)
Becerra (CA-30) Inslee (WA-01) Payne (NJ-10)
Blumenauer (OR-03) Jackson, J. (IL-02) Pelosi (CA-08)
Bonior (MI-10) Jackson-Lee, S. (TX-18) Price, D. (NC-04)
Brady, R. (PA-01) Johnson, E.B. (TX-30) Rahall (WV-03)
Brown, C. (FL-03) Jones, S. (OH-11) Rangel (NY-15)
Brown, S. (OH-13) Kaptur (OH-09) Reyes (TX-16)
Capps (CA-22) Kildee (MI-09) Rivers (MI-13)
Capuano (MA-08) Kilpatrick (MI-15) Rodriguez (TX-28)
Cardin (MD-03) Kleczka (WI-04) Roybal-Allard (CA-33)
Carson, J. (IN-10) Kucinich (OH-10) Rush (IL-01)
Clay (MO-01) LaFalce (NY-29) Sabo (MN-05)
Clayton (NC-01) Langevin (RI-02) Sanchez (CA-46)
Clyburn (SC-06) Larsen, R. (WA-02) Sawyer (OH-14)
Condit (CA-18) Larson, J. (CT-01) Schakowsky (IL-09)
Conyers (MI-14) Lee (CA-09) Scott (VA-03)
Costello (IL-12) Levin, S. (MI-12) Serrano (NY-16)
Coyne (PA-14) Lewis, John (GA-05) Slaughter (NY-28)
Cummings (MD-07) Lipinski (IL-03) Snyder (AR-02)
Davis, D. (IL-07) Lofgren (CA-16) Solis (CA-31)
Davis, S. (CA-49) Maloney, J. (CT-05) Stark (CA-13)
DeFazio (OR-04) Matsui (CA-05) Strickland (OH-06)
DeGette (CO-01) McCarthy, K. (MO-05) Stupak (MI-01)
Delahunt (MA-10) McCollum (MN-04) Thompson, B. (MS-02)
DeLauro (CT-03) McDermott (WA-07) Thompson, M. (CA-01)
Dingell (MI-16) McGovern (MA-03) Tierney (MA-06)
Doggett (TX-10) McKinney (GA-04) Towns (NY-10)
Doyle (PA-18) Meek, C. (FL-17) Udall, M. (CO-02)
Eshoo (CA-14) Meeks, G. (NY-06) Udall, T. (NM-03)
Evans (IL-17) Menendez (NJ-13) Velazquez (NY-12)
Farr (CA-17) Millender-McDonald (CA-37) Visclosky (IN-01)
Fattah (PA-02) Miller, George (CA-07) Waters (CA-35)
Filner (CA-50) Mollohan (WV-01) Watson (CA-32)
Frank, Barney (MA-04) Moran, James (VA-08) Watt, M. (NC-12)
Gonzalez (TX-20) Nadler (NY-08) Woolsey (CA-06)
Gutierrez (IL-04) Napolitano (CA-34) Wu (OR-01)
Ortiz (TX-27)

INDEPENDENTS (1)
Sanders (VT-AL)

REPUBLICANS (2)
Roukema (NJ-05) ? Stump (AZ-03) ?


SENATE

Daniel Akaka (D-HI)
Barbara Boxer (D-CA)
Jeff Bingaman (D-NM)
Robert Byrd (D-WV)
Kent Conrad (D-ND)
Jon Corzine (D-NJ)
Mark Dayton (D-MN)
Richard Durbin (D-IL)
Russ Feingold (D-WI)
Bob Graham (D-FL)
Patrick Leahy (D-VT)
Daniel Inouye (D-HI)
Edward Kennedy (D-MA)
Carl Levin (D-MI)
Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)
Patty Murray (D-WA)
Jack Reed (D-RI)
Paul Sarbanes (D-MD)
Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)
Paul David Wellstone (D-MN)
Ron Wyden (D-OR)

Lincoln Chafee (R-RI)
James Jeffords (I-VT)

[RaulVB]

29. Thanks for posting those names

I agree with your argument.

Americans voted for Kerry and HE WON...

Regards

[weeve]

19. Tellin' it like it is

Couldn't agree with you more Raul . I've always appreciated your posts here in the past, and this one expresses EXACTLY how I feel right now. No apology needed - you seem to be one of the few around here who actually sees the situation as it is. I want to find a way to turn all of my negative anger at what's happened to our country since 2000 into something positive, but after banging my head against the wall so many times with the same results, I'm at a loss. How many times do you need to burn your hand on a hot stove to learn the lesson ? I know many will feel this as defeatist thinking , but that's where I'm at right now. After I give one final call to my Dem Senators ( who voted NO , and DIDN'T VOTE yesterday ) , letting them know that if they don't somehow miraculously enact meaningful Election reform , they're HISTORY in my book .... well , I'm over it. I've already given up on mainstream news ( duh ) , and then our
( supposedly-more-liberal ) Seattle PI newspaper didn't even have the historic Ohio challenge story on the front page ( a small blurb on Pg. 3 by the New York Times writers - disgustingly snide ) ... well, I'm about to let my subsription to THAT lapse. I'll just try to enjoy my small little corner of the world for now, bask in the joy of my three young sons , and re-double my efforts to emigrate overseas so I can raise them in a free, democratic, peace-loving country elsewhere - ensuring that they don't become fodder for the war machine that rolls on into the future , while our elected officials look the other way ( "Nothing wrong in Ohio as far as we can see" ).
Thanks Raul.

[PATRICK]

25. I think this was discussed before

besides giving free rein while the clock on party relevance ran out. Some in the leadership chose a measured response somewhat less than what should have done four years ago(as Boxer rightly apologized for).

It seems more calculated to keep people from walking and the GOP from taking revenge than to actually accomplish anything the challengers spoke about. A large chunk of the party leadership seems mired in irredeemable behavior.

But anyway. Now we are totally free to see what directions to take- as they exist. Continued, grim pressure on the party with no unrealistic expectations anymore. More substantive action in issue coalition groups that make the populist base of the nation and any principled groups that remain on the right side. More outside the box, non-party oriented actions. More total personal behavior changes and commitment and less delegation to others to do it all for us.

The party is not quite relevant to the issue of its own survival. That is not a hopeful center for election reform, only a necessary part to keep alive. More local prying away of fraud from each precinct and especially the state apparatus and the removal of all outside tabulation and influence. For those who don't remember what happened to the ERA movement as it rose like a tide, fell short then faded into oblivion it might be very very wise to study history and tactics before hoping in the good old stuff this time. In the ebb of the ERA tide much valuable pro-women, equality legislation remained but the fundamental issues were never nationally won such as equal pay. In the rising tide of RW lunacy the ebb continues to move back.

Patience and results cannot be the only virtues. Any brilliant genius or newness must be employed as time simply is piling on the losses, the victims. Coalitions must be more tactical than traditional melding. Things intricately tied into the problem such as the media bias must be tackled as well, if not first. There is not a single institutional or traditional entity that guarantees probable success or just recourse. There is mainly the realization that the vast majority really can be moved to their best interests and away from becoming blind victims. The RW only works with confidence games and lies. We have a firmer ground in reality, as scary as it is. No piece of truth should be exiled to the smug isolation of left wing punditry, Rewards for lies and criminal behavior should begin to be denied(corporate sponsorship).

[RaulVB]

32. Thanks for your reply...

I have to digest your post.

Very powerful stuff...

[RaulVB]

31. No, thank you!

When I find Americans who think like you I regain confidence and believe that this country will become what it was once, long time ago...

Raul

[buddysmellgood]

26. I've come to the same conclusion. We're too fat dumb and happy to

live in a representative democracy. People are not and do not want to be informed. They want Brittney to kiss madonna. They want to pretend that they don't like Janet Jackson's nipple hardware. They want to watch young people eat cockroaches and jump off things. They want to complain about porn while hording it and crucify those that don't go to church while they kill in the name of Christ.
But don't talk about election fraud. They don't want to hear it.

This doesn't mean I'll stop fighting. It just means I understand what we're up against.

[RaulVB]

33. You really do! (n/t)

[euler]

35. Something's happenned. This RaulVB guy...

...is in my ignore list yet, yesterday, I started seeing his posts again. I know the mods disbled ignore lists yesterday, but surely they've been re-enabled by now, right ?

[RaulVB]

36. Hi, moron!

Yep, "I'm all yours..."

[Verve]

38. RaulVB, many times these past few months I've thought about how

too much information at one time can cause a person's demise. Believe me, take a step back. It wasn't that bad.

Yesterday, was a good day! Two hours of the precious rethugs time was spent on discussing election fraud! What they have tried to ignore and brush off hit them square in the face yesterday! It was mandatory! Their only defense was to talk about conspiracy theories, Michael Moore, even the "X files" came out of Tom Delay's mouth. What a laughable defense they all had!

Did you notice that none of them talked about exit polls, statistics, republican owned voting machine companies, etc. ... They're nervous about the real research we've uncovered here. So nervous they didn't dare mention it in their rebuttal. Just like they didn't dare mention election fraud until they were forced to yesterday.

Yes, it was a small step. But, hey, it was a step in the right direction. Democrats are now introducing a fair election standards bill in the next few weeks. We need to keep on both Democrats and Republicans until fair and transparent standards are in place. That's what's important here. Fair and transparent elections!

After that, we can then start to work on who we should support in office and who we shouldn't.

If I were you, I'd take a break and focus on the most important issue this weekend.

Packer Football! Go Pack Go!:)

[RaulVB]

40. Hey!..I'll do just that, BTW...

Packers win!...:toast:

[Verve]

42. I'll drink to that!

:beer:

[steve2470]

45. I can't say I disagree with you. I think the vast majority of the

problem is 1) "the state controlled media" and 2)an apathetic, somewhat comfortable population. I think most people in this country would rather have their rights taken away and be "safe" than risk a suitcase bomb and have their rights. I know, I know, it is not a trade-off, but it is perceived that way.