I'm so sorry Howard Dean

[Nightjock]

I was one of the many that jumped ship from you because I thought John Kerry had a better chance to beat bush. (I KNOW John Kerry DID WIN the election but at least you would have never stopped fighting on the front lines with us.)

I also realize that JK may have some long range plan to expose election fraud and we still may impeach that horrible puppet in the White House....but if you run in 2008 I will stay with you and never stop working for you Mr Dean.

Howard, I am so terribly sorry I switched my vote in the primaries.

Please run again in 4 years.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. If he gets a better campaign strategy, I'm on-board.

I don't think he would've won with his method of attacking Bush constantly, although I most certainly appreciate it since it made it easier for other Democrats to follow suit. The campaign season is just too long and people would have tuned him out. However, I love his message, so if he can add just a touch of nuance, I'm all his.

Also note, I do NOT think the "scream" was a bad thing. I've got a hundred inspiring and famous Knute Rockne-esque speeches just like it that people love. That was pure media assassination, IMHO.

I do think he'd best serve us as party chair though.

[LiberalVoice]

2. By long range you mean...

in another country? :-/

I'll tell you one thing though...My vote goes to Dean or Kucinich in 08!

[MercutioATC]

3. Welcome back, Nightjock!

:hi:

[blm]

4. I'm still surprised that Dean and other Dems weren't screaming about BBV

and telling Kerry's campaign that it was an important issue. It seems the Dems who heard about BBV weren't nearly as certain about it as we hoped.

Kerry and Dean had a great post-primary relationship and Dean had Kerry's ear.

Why wasn't BBV and vote fraud issue number ONE with those Dems who were informed about it? My guess is that they really didn't have a full grasp of it, or they would have led the charge MONTHS before the election.

[madfloridian]

6. Do not go there, blm

I am quite aware you know about the petition done by DFA about fixing voting problems., the rally set up by I think DFA and Kucinich people, the show Dean did about it, and the way the DFA grassroots have been working on it.

One good example of the grassroots is:
www.thedeanpeople.org

Are you saying that Kerry was waiting on Howard Dean to tell him there were voting problems?

[JaneQPublic]

10. Why the hell did Kerry need to be TOLD it's an important issue?

If Kerry truly is that clueless, he didn't deserve to be the candidate, much less the president.

[mzmolly]

5. The media made Dean unelectable. Not you Nightjock.

:hug:

[apple_ridge]

7. But you're still an idiot for buying in to Kerry and abandoning

Dean. :)

[shance]

8. And your a jerk for being so rude.

Night Jock, this whole deal is a crap shoot half the time, isnt it?

[Pirate Smile]

31. As a person who voted for Dean in the caucuses, please stop

being jerks.

You represent Howard poorly when you do so.

These useless exercises in saying what would have happened if so and so had won the nomination instead are silly and counterproductive.

How about trying to focus on making things better in the future. Looking backward to learn how to improve is one thing but imagining what may have been is just visiting fantasy land.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda = worthless.

[sunnystarr]

22. The media is intent on making ANY Dem candidate unelectable! (nt)

[Cha]

35. Yeah, you're right!

It always comes back to the msm..and someday we're all going to learn how to get around them!

[Cha]

34. Nice Avatar, mzmolly!

:hi:

[mzmolly]

51. Thanks Zidzi.

Not many people can replace Dean in that slot, but Conyers is one of the good-unz!

[seabeyond]

9. i didnt see dean out the nov 3 yelling fraud

as a matter of fact i havent heard any statement since where he supported the thought of fraud. he has gotten on board talking irregularities but no more than bush

[JaneQPublic]

11. I guess you didn't read Dean's book (nt)

[Pharaoh]

12. Dean gave the dems a spine transplant

but apparently they've turned back into wimps

He will do better next time....

if there is a next time.

:dem:

[seabeyond]

15. dean absolutely did

i will alwyas be thankful and appreciative of dean being the first to sya out loud bush is an ass when all others were quieted and wouldnt dare say a word about bush for fear they would be called a traitor, terrorist, unpatriotic, unamerican

i do like dean. i like a lot of things about dean. i also look forward to what dean will continue to bring to the democrats. i respect him probably more than any other dem in speaking from the heart. that is important. and the issues he stands for, i am right in line with

[Cheswick2.0]

25. Was that his job too?

He gave Kerry large parts of his stump speach. He was supposed to tell Kerry about vote fraud and keep talking until Kerry listened and then he was supposed to be screaming about fraud. So he would be doing Kerry's job and the job of the DNC and congress and senate.

What else should he do for people unwilling or unable to grasp the facts for themselves?

I am not challenging you really, I am just exasperated at the amount of water hauling is expected of Dean.

[seabeyond]

30. is it my job, is it your job, is it any of the senators job the dnc

does it only lay on kerry's shoulder exclusively. i think not

mm job, media job, who else ...... how about the republicans job to yell about their own party not letting people vote.

you decide whose job it is

[Cheswick2.0]

39. It is not howard Dean's job to do what others are unwilling to stick their

neck out and do themselves.
Fall on Kerry's shoulders alone? I'd like to see some of this fall on Kerry's shoulders at all!

[seabeyond]

41. oooosh this doesnt work for me. hm, so you are saying

that courage we respect so doesnt have to be all the time. you are right it doesnt. and i am just fine with dean towing the line (and that is what he did) with all the other dems, and moore and clinton and al yada yada yada, but he is right there with the rest, and doesnt get a pat for that. could have been the one to speak out. instead we had jesse and conyers and black caucus and the rest of us.

merely pointing out that dean didnt stand up either. would have liked to see. i think he is more on board from what i have heard but not way sure cause i dont focus on him

[Cha]

40. This is what Dean has to say about the..

"Fraud"..

snips~
From 1/1, in case you missed. Copied the relevant part of the interview:

http://peopleforchange.net/commentaries/hdinterview

Q: OK, I’ll get right to it, then. Many in the party were extremely disheartened to see voting irregularities worsen instead of improve in this past cycle, and in light of the stories we’ve seen coming out of Ohio and Florida, what do you think Democrats can do to restore faith in the system? Do you feel that you can take the lead in this issue? It was certainly the number one topic at the last group of meetings that DFA had.

HD: I think we need to focus on election officials. County Clerks, Secretaries of State in particular, because the Republicans have been so partisan in exercising their responsibility to help people vote, they‘ve in fact tried to suppress turnout instead of encourage it. Secondly, we, I think we need to try to get laws passed, by referendum if necessary, that says that no voting machines in a particular state or jurisdiction may be used unless they can be recounted by hand. Oregon has such a statute because Bill Bradbury (Oregon’s Secretary of State) got one passed in 2001. We should try to state by state overhaul the election process both by referendum and by electing where possible Democratic Secretaries of State and County Clerks.

Q: In other words, just seizing the thing locally is the way to go….

HD. Well, obviously, we’re not going to get rid of the Bush Administration for the next four years and this Congress wants to suppress votes instead of increase them. So I think the local venue is the best thing we can do.

Q: Do you think it’s too much to hope for that we’ll get any kind of media coverage regarding the Bush Administration’s active plan of disenfranchisement through basically ill equipping the polls, all those shenanigans that were pulled, do you think…

A Well, in order to do that you have to have some proof that that actually happened and while I think suspicion are well justified, we don’t actually have proof that there was a plan to do that, and until we have some proof, it’s not likely that we’re going to get much media coverage. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence and I think we are getting some media coverage on the circumstantial evidence, for example the over vote, Cuyahoga County, The addition of 3500 votes that didn’t exist before the balloting even started, on some of those electronic touch screen voting machines, those things we have to be concerned about, and I think we can get press on them. end snips~


More at..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=257176

[seabeyond]

43. thank you for this

and reasonable it sounds. i totally agree with what he is saying. look it is january 1. further, here he says something we can all respect

you have to have some proof that that actually happened and while I think suspicion are well justified, we don’t actually have proof that there was a plan to do that, and until we have some proof, it’s not likely that we’re going to get much media coverage

yet we want kerry to go out there and make accusations that he won and it was stolen when deans says we cant do it we say ok dean. that makes sense. you are a good dude and kerry is a pig

[Cha]

44. I'm hoping Kerry knows what he's doing.

You have to have proof and I guess the bushgoons are just too slick for us..so far.

[seabeyond]

45. it will come out just couldnt do it in two months

need time. coming out as we speak and will keep on coming. too many smart people missing with it. then all the stuff that still needs to come out that we put aside because we were working our ass off on this campaign, well hey, we have all that stuff to rear its ugly head again. when you are such huge crooks and liars, takes time to get it all out., everything said, everything done has to be investigated to see where the lie is

[Warren Stupidity]

13. ok maybe im a clueless newbie

but I keep seeing post after post claiming that somehow there will be an impeachment of mr bush. How the heck is that going to happen? That would require the Republican controlled congress to go against their leader. Not bloody likely. Bush would have to be caught in bed with a juvenile male baboon, make that a dead juvenile male baboon, before that would happen.

This is the same bunny-planet thinking that is evidenced by Senator Kerry's suggestion that we ask Frist and Hastert to get behind election reform.

Until 45 senate democrats start acting like an opposition party instead of one lone senator from california, until our 'leaders' stop reaching across the aisle to work together with their "honorable colleagues", the colleagues who ran an 8-year campaign to destroy the Clinton presidency and then stole two presidential elections in a row, those colleagues, and start slapping them back, until that starts happening, the shit is just going to get deeper and deeper.

[KnowerOfLogic]

14. Thanks for 'fessing up, but in 2008 dems will probably do the same

thing again.

[Clark2008]

16. Dean wouldn't have turned any red states blue

and that's what we need.

If a Dem could win a couple of red states, we wouldn't have to worry about close, fraudulant elections (as much, anyway).

Dean was hardly a blip down here. Sorry.

[seabeyond]

17. dean was popular in texas, the mans man

liked him. for real. i was surprised. these repug texas male with integrity that cant stomach bush, they went for dean. they liked what he had to say and the way he said it. i think dean would have done well bringing his campaign into the south

[Clark2008]

18. I still don't think Texas would have gone blue for Dean

Sorry - I just don't.

[seabeyond]

19. doesnt have to be all or nothing

baby steps. to have dean take votes from texas bush is significant. and many of texans use to be dems not so long ago. this area use to be democrat before some president? got pissed at the panhandle and did something to the base here or something, forget the story. but the people here arent far from being dems. just not the east coast elitist dem. a different dem

[Cheswick2.0]

29. Tx wouldn't have gone blue for Clark

sorry, It just wouldn't.

[AllyCat]

32. No, but a good part of the south would have

Dean would have fired people up on a populist level... something Kerry was never going to be able to do.

[Cheswick2.0]

36. I don't think Clark has any particular pull in the south

and we certainly can't run by hoping for southern states to go blue. First a democrat must win the Gore states.
I actually think Dean would do much better in the midwest and the south than Clark.

[AllyCat]

38. Cheswick...then don't vote for him

It's clear you don't like him. Clark won OK despite a last minute robocall ploy by Edwards...Dean did not win a state. I think he could have had the media been fair (but we all know about those clowns).

We have to win by going for all the states, not just "winning first in the Gore states", or the Bush states, or the Clinton states.

It's a moot point. We got Kerry and he didn't pull anything we thought he might outside of the usual suspects. I don't think a Senator ever will. Americans cannot understand the "candidate voted for____, then voted against____" records of the daily workings of the Senate. Dean or Clark each had a better chance than Kerry of winning in these states.

[Clark2008]

46. Really? And in which southern state do you live?

Because I have lived all my life down here and Dean wasn't a blip.

Look, I know you don't like Clark for some odd reason, but if you want to win in a national election, you better be finding someone who can turn a moderate red state (TN, VA, WVA, FL or AK) blue. And, that wouldn't be Dean (who got a "whopping" 6 percent in my state).

I like Dean, OK. I just don't see him winning a national election.

[corbett]

26. Sure He Would Have But He Slighted The Caucuses

I like Dr. Dean, too, and would have had no problem having him in the White House. However, his comment on video about the caucus process sank his ship permanently. Let's just hope that he runs for Senate or the head of the DNC. He'd be GREAT in either job.

[Cheswick2.0]

33. he was right about the caucus's

and that is not what sunk his ship. His ship is not sunk permanaently and the party will have to work even harder to keep him out next time if there is a next time.

[Cheswick2.0]

27. he would have actually

and he had lots of support in the south...more than Clark I would venture ...sorry.

[Straight Shooter]

20. I also find myself wondering where we would be with Dean as the candidate

Purple heart bandaid? Huh-uh. Okay, Repubs would claim he skiied and dodged the draft. He's a doctor, and he can explain why he skiied and also explain why bush had that bulge in the back and why he keeps falling, too.

I began to support Kerry, after a lot of research into his history, when Dean stood by him. It was Howard Dean I've always looked to for leadership. His word, his endorsement, that was good enough for me.

Howard Dean did something even better than bush does -- he energized people, he put electricity in the air. With a little fine-tuning, he could have given the people what they wanted.

We'll never know, will we? I gave countless hours and as much money as my budget could bear, and worked my a** off to get Kerry elected because I still believe he is a good man and would have done a very competent job as president. But if it's between Dean and Kerry in 2008, I'm getting a divorce from Kerry and going back to the man I really love.

[EFerrari]

21. The truth is, we'll never know because we all, all of us, have to see

through the MSM filter.

I felt uneasy about Dean even as I realized, hey, this guy is REAL. My husband fell in love with him.

The DLC collaborated with the GOP to eat him up.

[Cheswick2.0]

23. We will never impeach bush

but we might get lucky and the republicans will decide he is a liability and talk him into quiting.

I am sure HD would appreciate your apology and your pormise to vote and work for him. Have you joined DFA and gone to meet-ups yet? We have a lot of work to do for 2006.

[Barney Rocks]

24. I believe that

Dean would have won by such a large margin that they would have had no hope of stealing it.

That is why the MSM were so aggressive in selling Kerry to us--and trying to convince us that he was the only guy who had a chance to beat Bush.

we were fools to buy it. Before his nomination, Kerry was not a high-profile Senator, he has had trouble winning some of his elections even in a state that is predominantly Democratic. We were had--and we fell for it hook line and sinker. Sure--some people will never admit that they were suckered--but I am smart enough to acknowledge it.

How many times was I told--but Kerry can win? He was a Vietnam Vet?

They had to sell him hard, because he was not a very desirable product for many of us.

But we bought it--even though a lot of us were reluctant. I gave him money until it HURT. It is probably still sitting in his campaign chest unspent. Can we ask for our money back?

The whole thing makes me want to go and PUKE now.

[marcologico]

28. I'm sorry, Howie, that you lost EVERY FRIGGIN' PRIMARY YOU RAN IN

except your own tiny state. Incidentally where were you yesterday? Last time I checked you didn't have a political hide left to cover so why weren't you standing shoulder to shoulder with Jesse Jackson?

Just curious.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. nice bait

it's not going to work Jules.

[jsw_81]

49. Marco's point still stands

Like it or not, the fact is that Howard Dean lost every single primary and caucus with the exception of his tiny, irrelevant home state. He also managed to blow $50 million after claiming to be a fiscal conservative. And this is the guy who's gonna save the party in 2008?!?

[Cha]

50. So what? bush "wins" all the time...

and we all don't want him.

If my signature were allowed to show.. it would say..

" It feels a hell of a lot better to try and lose than not to try at all. In any case I have to say that I don't really feel like we have lost. We only lose if we quit. There is an enormous amount of power in numbers, and we can still change this country (and that is exactly what we're going to do!)." ~Governor Howard Dean~

[Carolab]

42. I never left Dean

I was one of six in my caucus in Minnesota who voted for him. We were encouraged to vote for "undecided" or Edwards. My fiance and I could see no sense in this so we followed our consciences. I am still supporting Dean for either DNC chair or (ideally) another run for 2008.

[Beth in VT]

47. Dean is the real real deal! n/t

[Pharaoh]

48. OH I LOVE THIS THREAD!

The democrats were given a gift on a silver platter with Dean and the totally trashed him.

I am still disheartend by it all but I don't think it was his place to challenge Kerrys election.

Kerry blew it and dropped off the face of the earth on nov 3rd.......

We need a leader like Dean to pick up the pieces and lead the charge..

I don't think he will dissapoint y'all, but we need to give it a bit of time......

:dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: