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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:32 PM
Original message
Parable of a rigged game
In 1969 I was a freshman in college. That year I was required to see a foreign film (in French with subtitles as I recall) called "Last Year in Marianbad (sp?)." The main character of that film played a game which he never lost. Neither the audience or the people who played the main character knew whether the game was rigged or whether it was a legitimate game. But winning every time looked suspicious.

One of my suite mates was obsessed by this game. He had to know whether it was rigged or not. He spent the next several days doing nothing but playing this very simple game. He was one of the brightest people I have ever known. He was persistent. And finally he figured it out. It was in fact rigged and taught us how to play the game.

Over the last 35 years I have played that game thousands of times against some very bright people and have never lost until I showed someone how to play. It is not a game of chance and it is not a game of slight of hand. It appears to be a game that is fair but it is definitely not.

Call me a chump, but I have never played this game for money. It would be like legalized stealing. The game is so simple I could teach a six year old and he would have Bobby Fisher pulling out his hair.

Here is the game. Take sixteen objects. I usually use 16 cards, or sixteen coins, or sixteen marbles. The objects are placed in four rows. Here's what it looks like.

The first row -- one object
The second row -- three objects
The third row -- five objects
The fourth row -- seven objects

Here are the simple rules. Whenever it is your turn, you may pick up as many objects in any one row as you like; i.e., the one in the first row, up to three in the second, up to five in the third and up to seven in the fourth. Whoever has to pick up the last object loses. How simple could it be? You would never expect this game to be rigged, but it is. It seems like a game of wits; instead it is a game of fraud.

In fact, suppose I said let's play a different game. In this game there is one object on the table and whomever's turn it is to pick up that object loses, and the catch is, it is always your turn to go first. You would never play such a game. Of course the game is rigged in my favor. If it is your turn, you are going to lose every time.

What people don't understand is that the game of sixteen objects and the game of one object are the same. You just don't know it and I do. And I know how to make the game of sixteen objects the game of one object and you don't. What a game of fraud!

As I said I have played this game of fraud thousands of times and have never lost, unless I wanted to. If I wanted to play for money, I could make real suckers of people and intentionally lose every sixth or seventh game.

So when I hear people say, I am sorry, there was just not enough proof of fraud in this election to convince me that it would have made a difference, to those people I have to say, you would not know fraud if it was staring you in the face. That is what fraud is.


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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Absolutely brilliant. Nominated for homepage.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thank you
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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. great parable, now let's see...
do you pick up an odd or even number of objects depending upon what your opponent picks up?

odd # if he picks an even #?
even #if he picks an odd #?

Bush if he votes Kerry?
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. NO
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
33. "great parable, it confirms that my intuition was right all along!"
I hope you're beginning to feel my pain.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Felt your pain since Nov. 2
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thanks! Nominated For Home Page. Con Artists Exist And Prosper
of that, there is no doubt.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
82. But cheaters never really win.
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IndyPriest Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. A perfect analogy! (Remind me never to play you!!) lol! n/t
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sweet sixteen! And never been kissed, til now
It's like our voting on electronics, eh? Those who control the electronics determine who gets the last pick.

Kinda like there are four objects on the table: You only get to pick one, but I decide which one is the losing piece. I'd win every time.

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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Every now and then when I run across someone who thinks
He's the next Einstein, I just can't resist.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
60. see:
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nominated for home page.
And, be sure to check www.velvetrevolution.us on 10 Jan 2005. Your insights will be well received.

"When Did Bush Know?"
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. What do you sugest I do?
Please feel free to post it there (wherever you deem appropriate)if you like.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. See your pm; and thank you again (n/t)
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. I'm still a newbie
I don't know what my pm is (private message?) much less how to access it.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. If you....
....look at the series of icons that include "my posts" and the one you used to create this thread, i.e., "post" you will see "inbox"; just click on that, select each message, and you can hit 'reply' (at the bottom right of the message display) to do just that.

Great post for a 'newbie', by the way.

Peace.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Done as you suggested with updates from this thread.
Much thanks.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
11. One other thing.
I should give my suite mate credit where credit is due. I have shown this game to many people over the years and no one but he ever figured it out. I have always had to tell people how to play the game.

I gave you a hint that he didn't have. He didn't know the game was a fraud when he began.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent parable.
Now I'm not going to be able to rest til I figure this out.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. give it a good shot
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Put TIA on it too
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
62. TIA is welcome to compete
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. TIA hasn't seen this
Or if he has, he hasn't said anything about it.
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ArmchairActivist Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's a variation of a mathematical game called 'nim'
This game's been around a long time and has been analyzed every which way. I was going to post a link, but if you google 'game of nim' you'll find oodles.

-AA
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Interesting -- I'll have to check it out and see if they are the same
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ruthg Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. Ok this is making me crazy
I think I am gonna ask my mathematiclly inclined kid about it...




Ruth, mathmatically challenged ( and not doing too great with spelling either these days).
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. They are not quite the same -- but may have the same principal
The game of nim looks like this:

I
II
III
IIII
IIIII

The game I know looks like this:

I
III
IIIII
IIIIIII

It looks like nim uses 15 objects and this game uses sixteen.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
32. you were right the first time
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 04:19 AM by foo_bar
The Marienbad nim is crooked in a way most other nims aren't, including this 1-2-3-4-5 example:

001 (1)
010 (2=2)
011 (3=2+1)
100 (4=4)
101 (5=4+1)
^^^ XOR
001

Since the nim-value* is nonzero, the first mover has two potential branches, instead of the deterministic flip to odd-parity in Marienbad's 1-3-5-7, per http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Marienbad.html

*The nim-value can also be found by writing the number of counters in each heap in binary, adding corresponding binary digits (mod 2), and interpreting the resulting binary string as a decimal number.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. Sorry. this doesn't look like any English I know.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 02:34 PM by davidgmills
I recognize the words as English, but I have no clue what you said. You math guys are something else.

On edit:

You will note from my answer on how the game is played that there is one proper move that results in an odd number of objects left on the board. It is this:

Three rows left, each with one object. Your turn. You lose.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. I'm just a comp-psych man
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 04:33 PM by foo_bar
Your modern riddles frighten me!



But seriously, "anyone goes first" ignores the primary heuristic in the game (initiative), and allegedly the riddle of the movie:

In the movie, M politely lets X make the first move. Unfortunately, X always loses.
second-hand source

The fact that 1-3-5-7 aligns in a way specifically detrimental to the first player is a more profound analogy to fraud than a mnemonic card-counting solution. The prime mover is given the illusion of free will, yet the outcome of his first move is deterministic. Just like the Matrix. (Dude.)

on edit: or Amway.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Question -- Since I can't begin to understand this guy's game theory
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 09:52 PM by davidgmills
Could he beat me if I went first?

I have no clue whether he can play the game or not.

Could you beat me if I went first?
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. yes and yes
Whenever you are called upon to play in a situation where there's only one row containing more than one item, you should therefore leave an odd number of rows with a single item . Other than that, you should play misère Nim exactly like you would play normal Nim!

With this strategy, you can't lose if you play second from the classical "Marienbad" initial position described in the question. If you have to play first, you'll win only if your opponent makes a mistake (but opponents who are not aware of the above will very rarely play perfectly).


http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/games.htm
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. This about says it all
"Please, explain how this card scam works: There are 16 cards in 4 rows of 1, 3, 5 and 7 cards. The two players take turns removing as many cards from one row as they like. Whoever picks up the last card loses. After playing for money, I realized my opponent knew a secret for winning... What's the formula for winning?"


.............

Goes to show sometimes people will do anything for money.

Are you ready to play me now?

Of course I told you all the moves but how good is your memory? Can you see them with your eyes closed?
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. sure, if you go first
The loser buys a DU star for the winner's username.

I can't visualize every outcome, but I might by game 16 or so.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. best of 7, take turns going first, you go the first round
deal?

O8)
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. How would we play on line Einstein
Edited on Fri Jan-14-05 05:49 PM by davidgmills
Any ideas. I'm game even though I've already told you how to win. This will just be a test to see if you have learned anything.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. the at sign makes a nice matchstick
i.e.,

@
@@@
@@@@@
@@@@@@@

(your move)
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. Your move in front of God and everybody
@
@@@
@@@@@
@@@@@@



























2
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. game 1, 2nd move
@
@@@
@@@@
@@@@@@
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. Your move
@@@
@@@@
@@@@@@
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. game 1, 4th move
Before:

@@@
@@@@
@@@@@@

011
100
110
---
221 %2 =1 (good for me)

After:
@@
@@@@
@@@@@@

010
100
110
---
220 %2 =0 (not good for you)
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. So far so good, the most I've ever been challenged
@@
@@@
@@@@@@
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. 6th move
@@
@@@
@

10
11
01
---
22 %0 =0
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Still right
@@
@@@
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. 8th
@@
@@

10
10
--
20 %2 = 0
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. Still right
@
@@
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. 10th and next-to-last move
@ (to you)
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. You win
Every move perfect
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. thanks for the game
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Cudos to you
You have obviously got it. I tried to make it as hard as I could.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Bedtime
49 minutes to play a 3 minute game. Maybe the net is not the answer.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Because of the binary math
The most interesting game I have played since I don't know when. A totally different way of thinking (the Harvard way) and a means to check your work.

But having slept on it, I thought of this:

there is one (only one) combination that a zero sum doesn't work:

@ - 1
@ - 1
@ - 1

Would you have known to make this move? If so, Why?
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. very salient point
The evenness check is just a means to passing the odd straw when your opponent has no choice but to take it (@ or @-@-@). I intuited this far enough not to end up with the hot potato, but the bit matrix doesn't say when to pull out, besides collapsing into a one-dimensional line (which in a game of one-row-at-a-time signals the end of choices, hope you already pulled the pin).
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Having read more
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 04:29 PM by davidgmills
I see that the game has all kinds of variations and one site on nim does mention the film I mentioned: Last Year at Marienbad, 1961 film. I can not imagine playing this game with twelve rows of objects.

Thanks for letting me know what they call this game I have been playing all these years.
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buzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. Who determines who goes first, and do you have to pick upon your turn??
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. With sixteen
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 04:01 PM by davidgmills
Either player can go first. Then once the first person picks, then the second person picks, then first, then second, etc. until the last object is left.

I should have mentioned that there are only two players and they take turns.
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seaclyr Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. Last Year in Marienbad - Alain Robbe-Grillet
was the director/author as I recall. I believe it was an example (perhaps the first?) of what Robbe-Grillet called the "cine-roman," a story for a film that was later made into a novel. Robbe-Grillet is/was? a master of puzzles of this kind. His first novel "The Erasers" itself was a puzzle not many critics figured out and, misunderstood, was widely panned. Before he was a novelist he was an agronomist, I think in the Caribbean. One critic said of The Erasers: "This is not the way to write a book." His comment at the time is that he was pleased with this remark as he had not been taught how to write books, only to look after ailing banana plants!:-)
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Alain Resnais
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 05:51 PM by davidgmills
According to Ebert

http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatmovies/marien.html

Ebert describes the game:

The men play a game. It has been proposed by M. It involves setting out several rows of matchsticks (or cards, or anything). Two players take turns removing matchsticks, as many as they want, but only from one row at a time. The player who is left with the last matchstick loses. M always wins. On the soundtrack, we hear theories: ``The one who starts first wins ... the one who goes second wins ... you must take only one stick at a time ... you must know when to ... .'' The theories are not helpful, because M always wins anyway. The characters analyzing the stick game are like viewers analyzing the movie: You can say anything you want about it, and it makes no difference.


But I don't think Resnais wrote the script.

On edit: Ebert says Resnais co-wrote the script. He does not mention the other author.
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seaclyr Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. You're right, Resnais directed
text was by Robbe-Grillet (perhaps together with Resnais?). Anyway, a great movie, and I think your analogy is right on. Just have to persevere to figure it out.
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ruthg Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Resnais
also directed Hiroshima Mon Amour and a number of others that I can not remember right now...

Ruth, who is the same age as the original poster and still can't figure out the damn game but can remember odd things about movies.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. Beautiful!
Let them have it DMills.

There are all kinds of games like this out there. When they start
gaming elections you know we're in trouble.

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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
29. isn't the player who goes second assured (potential) victory?
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 03:42 AM by foo_bar
Maybe under "real world conditions" the player who knows what he's doing will win regardless, barring a lucky guess by an unschooled second mover (statistically unlikely, mathematically possible). Similar but opposite in that respect to Tic-Tac-Toe: in TTT, the first mover A can't lose when he makes all "correct" moves (although he can be drawn), whereas the second mover B can't win against all-correct mover A even when B makes all correct moves (although he'll draw).

Expressing your example in binary to simplify (?) the almighty XOR, the "board" begins in this state:

001 (1)
011 (3=1+2)
101 (5=1+4)
111 (7=1+2+4)
^^^ XOR
000 (0)

That already looks not so simple. Oh well. So it begins in an even-parity state, meaning the first mover A inherits a losing position on the first move (where odd-parity means the final straw), and second mover B is obliged to keep his opponent on the losing end of eenie-miney-moe. Therein lies the illusion: mover B has all the free will, and A has none of it, since A tautologically spends his first move flipping the desired state into the undesirable one.

So your point is well taken, although it applies as well to statistical fraud as the electoral kind.

On edit: does Marienbad have the loser with the last straw or the winner? I found contradictory accounts on the wicked web, although it's unfair either way. Guess I'll have to rent it:

Last straw loses:
In Marienbad, two players alternately draw counters from one of four nim-heaps formed by 1, 3, 5 and 7 counters. The player making the last move is the loser. Since the nim-value of this game is zero, the second player can always win, which makes Marienbad a distinctly unfair game.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Marienbad.html

Last straw wins:
In the movie, M politely lets X make the first move. Unfortunately, X always loses...In the normal convention, the player who removes the last object wins, in the mis`ere convention the player to move last loses.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:FrBNhQC8sl0J:www-mgi.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/Teaching/Games-SS02/ch1.ps+marienbad+politely&hl=en
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Check your PM for the answers
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. Last straw loses
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
30. "Heads, I win - Tails, you lose"
Same game, no?

Thanks for a fascinating insight!
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
31. Great Post. This was such a refreshing read.
Nominated for the Home page.
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ottozen Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Bumper Sticker
A VOTE FOR KERRY was A VOTE FOR BUSH!?!
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
35. Good point
That is what fraud is all about. You think you're doing one thing and in actuality you are doing something else. That's what people seem to forget when they ask for absolute, indisputable, point to the murderer proof. You were led to think you were doing something else like a con job.

You get swindled out of your money by a guy who says you just won $1,000,000. On the surface, the guy appears honest. So you give him money in order to collect your $1,000,000. It's a collection fee, an administrative fee. We are all use to paying those. And guess what? You never get your $1,000,000. You call him and he tells you there was a glitch, and just wait, your money is in the mail. So you wait and wait and by the time you have it figured out, he's long gone with your money.

So what can you point to to say you were conned? A check, a perfectly legal check you made out to the con artist. What proof is that? That's just stupidity. He didn't threaten you, he didn't hold a gun to your head. Prove that you were conned. Well he misrepresented himself. Well that's the name of the game isn't it? Does the diet pill really let you lose weight? Does the get rich quick scheme really work? You've just learned an expensive lesson. That's one of the reasons people who are conned out of their money are reluctant to report it. They feel stupid and what evidence do they really have to prove the guy was conning them?

In most cases of fraud the evidence is hidden, out of sight, you're never going to see it.

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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. When I first started using the internet
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 02:35 PM by davidgmills
Thank God somebody warned me about this con. I have had so many people email me with a similar kind of con. I just need somebody in the US to hold some money for me and I will pay you (handsomely) for holding it but I need you to send me a check first.

Yeah right. But I almost fell for it the first time I got one of those emails.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
84. kick for twuth!
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Shalom Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
43. Interesting Analogy - Is Life Rigged, and not just Politics ?
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 02:43 PM by Shalom
I expect the movie uses the analogy in a larger sense than you do in applying it to politics.

When you apply it in a limited sense, it divides humanity into the "trickers" (who create and run the scam - e.g., the Karl Roves, Mussolinis, and Hitlers of the world), and the "rubes" (who are the unkowing victims).

When you apply the analogy in a broader sense, it it more logical to conclude that the "trickers" (the Karl Roves, Mussolinis, and Hitlers) are really "rubes" as well, only they happen to think they are in control.

This can be confirmed by noting that before WWII it seemed that the Fascists in Italy and the Nazis in Germany appeared to have amassed so much power that they could never be overthrown.

In fact, the Nazis under Hitler predicted a 1,000 Year Reich. Yet only 12 years into the 1,000 Year Reich, Adolf Hitler and his mistress Eva Braun commited suicide, and their colleagues attempted to incinerate their bodies like diseased carcasses. The Soviets found the remains, and may have fed them to wild dogs, or something like that. We'll never know.

Mussolini was hung by his heels like a carcass of beef, and murdered by an angry mob.

And that's how the game of life is played.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I was just 19 when I saw the movie
And have not seen it since.

It's hard to say what analogy was intended by the movie. When I read Ebert's review of it, some of it came back.

What I wonder is whether the director or the actors even knew the game was rigged. They could have just been following a script.

But clearly, the character who knows the game is in control and expects to win.

Since you seem to know something about fascism, you might enjoy my article published on Informationclearinghouse and Dissidentvoice about two months ago.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7260.htm
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Shalom Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Great Article - But Why Must a Corporate Economy Lead to Fascism ?
Not all modern industrial states are moving towards Fascism - the US seems the exception, rather than the rule.

I suspect the unique characteristic leading America in this path is the "religious right wing", who are truly not religous or value-driven, but driven by a unique American malady, that combines fear, repression, greed, and hypocrisy. The shining example of this is George Walker Bush, who claims to be born again, while thousands are dying of his lies.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I don't think it must lead to fascism
If the necessary controls are in place.

The first problem is that there are no internal controls within the corporation itself. The duty of directors and officers is to make profit for the shareholders. They have a fiduciary duty to do this. There are no internal controls to protect employees or to protect the public good. I would argue that corporations themselves need to have persons elected to the board to represent other interests than just the shareholders. Once a corporation goes "public" it should have to look out for the intersts of its employees and the public good. That would help.

Secondly, external regulation of corporations by the government is also necessary and by private individuals by way of lawsuit. But when you elect corporatists to government, and they put corporatists as heads of the agencies that are supposed to regulate them, and when they pass laws that protect corporations from private suits, then corporatism is very hard to stop.

We have steadily been marching in that direction and the controls are becoming less effective every day.

The major reason is money. That is why I am so pessimistic. The anti-corporatists do not have the money to defeat corporatists in elections, especially when corporatists are counting the vote and controlling the media.

At least in places like Germany, they protect the vote from corporatists by using paper ballots and hand counting. Many other democracies do as well.

We have simply let the corporatists get their roots into every part of the government and the roots run deep.

I am a capitalist. But my idea of capitalism is small business capitalism, mom-and-popism, where economic power does not become concentrated.
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Shalom Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. The Chicken & the Egg: The Corporation and the Culture
I agree with the structual safeguards you propose for public corporations, but I must return to our culture and mindset in America, for these must be realigned in order to have the political power to make these changes.

As such, I feel the root of the problem is not the corporations themselves, but our collective will, which is based upon our true values and convictions.

Again, I feel the problem is that a stinker like George Walker Bush can get 30% of the American electorate right off the top because he can appeal to their narrow-minded viewpoint on sex, marriage, religion, and reproductive rights. As such, he gets many of these people to actually vote against their own interests with regard to issues such as their economic well being.

Until the liberals in this country can break this strangle hold, the Republicans have an easy time to beg, borrow, and steal the remaining 20% they need for victory.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. One of the characteristics of fascism
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 07:20 PM by davidgmills
that Britt mentions is that the fascist state picks out a preferred religion, which is the dominant religion, and uses it as a wedge for an us/them mentality.

Sound familiar?

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seaclyr Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. Good point, the naive and the manipulators co-exist
as they must, otherwise there would be no game, right? Not to mention the internal game within the individual and the possibility of switching roles, as you indicate - the "trickers" are the "rubes" as well. Of course different games coexist, but it's not always clear they're much better. Oh well.:-(
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
46. Wow, don't use this with the naysayers...
They might collapse!
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. you have no idea Raul
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 11:14 PM by foo_bar
Where do you think the Egyptians got the spaceships?

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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Hey!
That's cool there...
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seaclyr Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
52. Another take on things being rigged...
There is an article by the musician Brian Eno entitled Learing how to Lie About Iraq (although it could be learning how to lie about anything, including the 2004 election) where he talks about how governments, through controlling what is talked about (he terms it "prop-agenda") exerts tremendous social control that is barely noticed by most people. He contrast the situation now in the US and UK, where perhaps the majority of people believe what they are told, with that in the old Soviet Union, where people typically saw through it very easily. He concludes with a tale about an eccentric uncle of his who taught him how to lie, not because he wanted him to lie, but because he felt he should know how to recognize it.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1020303,00.html
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hoosierblue Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
61. Great story.
Now how good are you at poker?
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. I suck at poker
Well, when I was young I played a lot of bridge so I'm not clueless at card games. But this game bears no resemblance to poker. If it did I would get my ass "whupped" all the time.
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