How many of us never post but know there was fraud

[hereinmissouri]

& it was enough to change the outcome?

I've seen the graphs, looked at the numbers, & read the studies. I'm mainly a lurker, watching & waiting for the election fraud to somehow enter the public conscientiousness. I was wondering if there are a lot of lurker's like me.

OK, I'm 1.

[allthatjazz]

1. Count me in n/t

[Pendulum]

2. Count me,

but I'd prefer "believe" to "know".

:kick:

[DMWDNR]

3. You bet

But I'm with Pendulum, re: "believe.":mad:

[ottozen]

4. Fraud is void ab initio

Why commit fraud if it would not change the election? It is arguably a capital offense. They say that fraud is the architect of all crimes. It sits at the pinnacle of the criminal panacea. It is virtually impossible to prove. In fraud litigation you look for indices of fraud precisely because it is so hard to prove. The indices of fraud are all over this election. There is no common law way to ratify fraud. If massive intentional nationwide fraud occurred and it changed the result of the 2004 election, then the election never occurred. That's what void ab initio means. America, in the eyes of the common law, would sit where it did the day before the election and the man in the white house is there based upon the one prior vote that counted 5 to 4.

That's my theory and I'm sticking with it.

[Lostnote03]

48. "Pinnacle of criminal panacea".....

....... "indices of fraud"....I hope that you have contributed a LTTE at some point....Its the damned sloganeering the destroys us(lol).....Thanks for the thoughts....

[mikeylove]

5. Me too.

Wish I could post more, but I'm a busy man. :)

[SharonRB]

6. Welcome all you new DUers --

Well, even if you've been lurking a while, you're pretty new to posting. Glad to have you all here. Great to know there are many more of us than we know.

[DearAbby]

7. I knew there was fraud watching the returns...Lurked here for weeks

doing what I can to help. Emailing senators and Reps with all that I can gather here, Its a flowing spring of information here at DU with some very enlightened minds. I then signed up, because it was so hard not to respond and share ideas and thoughts. I am here for the duration, nothing less.

In the memory of my Father, a Korean war veteran. I look at his picture and cry. The country that he faught for, is in danger today. I too have to take up and fight, his daughter. I fight for all those that sacrificed their lives for this country. I will settle for nothing less. I want my country back!

[alexisfree]

8. "F"

Yes!!! it was and it is a Fraud.!!!!...I do post I think…. :think:

[rigel99]

9. closer every day!

it's a few letters away in GA... can you say undervote, can you say default to bush, can you say, GOTCHA caught you red handed.. 6 days and I'm running like crazy..

phyllis

[shadowlight]

10. Me too

[GardeningGal]

11. Absolutely...

I was so frustrated after the election. It was a relief to find DU.

[seabeyond]

12. i post all the time and knew there was fraud....n/t

[Stevepol]

13. What if you knew you could determine an election and not get caught?

That's the situation the vending machine owners and programmers are in. Unless there's a paper trail and MANDATED AUDITS FOR EVERY ELECTION, there's no way anybody's going to even check. And if they do check, they can't look at the source code because it's considered proprietary material, "trade secrets." And of course even if they could look at the source code, they'd have to find a few lines of programming instruction amid the approximately million lines of such instruction (Harder than finding a needle in a haystack, Avi Rubin said once, even for a computer scientist). And supposing something is found, who's going to know who put it in there, some evil nameless hacker or the programmers at the company? Or maybe it was just a glitch in the machinery some way, a mouse short-circuiting something. The gist of it is, there's no way you would ever get caught. Nobody's even looking, even tho the exit polls are screaming FRAUD at the highest decibel level! Even a moral upstanding citizen would be tempted to change the election given that possibility. But take Diebold Elections Division: When GES was acquired by Diebold in Jan 02, it had 5 ex-felons working for them in upper management positions, including one Jeff Dean, who spent 5 years in the slammer for embezzling money using a highly sophisticated method of falsifying commputer information, according the judge who sentenced him. Wonder if he might consider rigging the machines? Nah! That couldn't happen, not in the US. We're the land of the free, home of the brave, and we have a DEMOCRACY. So let's don't even check. Let's don't rock the boat whatever we do.

[bardgal]

55. Perfectly said.

[Dragonfli]

14. I am another, along with several friends I have had to educate.

I found DU looking for others who could see the obvious and unapologetic theft of our democracy. Now I come here to learn all the things that the state owned (i mean free) media would rather be hidden from us. I have hopes and plans for the future and when the gears have finished turning I expect to become quite active. Ideas are beginning to form; the information available here is feeding an agenda within me that I fear will end either with my death or my freedom. I have chosen freedom and so I expect this to be the fight of my life. I do not feel alone anymore however, nor do I expect to loose. Thank you all for not going quietly into the fascist night. I feel I am in good company.

[zann725]

35. And "educate" others, you should all do! Welcome newbies!

One of the natural next steps is to take the info you learn and share here, and take it out to the 'UN-informed'...and spread the news.

And of course, please write letters and emails to Senators and Reps, giving them the power of our "numbers" to stand up and investigate and change things.

Oh, and Newbies...I remember how reluctant I was at first to 'add my two cents'...particularly if other bloggers all had "1000+" posts. But truly, your input may be JUST the insight on an issue that helps "solve" the Election Fraud puzzle. Or any optimism you can 'muster' might help buoy up others discouraged time-to-time by the weight of it all.

Nonetheless, welcome all of you!:hi:

[Mili-Brat Demi-Crat]

15. Count me in too ... n/t

[budkin]

16. It's so freaking obvious...

despite how people try to spin away the exit polls.

[nonny]

17. Count me too!

I'm not sure that I like the word "lurker" so much.

I am more of a "listener" than a talker.
And yes, I hear election fraud loud and clear.

[New Earth]

18. count me in!

i never post! :crazy:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

22. FIBBER!! Lol!

Yep, fraud.

[troubleinwinter]

19. Thank all you guys above, for taking a moment to let us know that

we blabber-mouths are not alone! Welcome, all!

[Chiaroscuro]

20. me too!

Looks like a wonderful thread to de-lurk on. I found DU right after the election and have been reading and writing tons of letters to legislators ever since. I'm coming out of a major work crunch (finished an academic degree last week...) and look forward to really becoming a part of this community soon!

[Nictuku]

21. Me too

I don't post often either, but I am certain, deep down, that this election, along with the 2000 election, was stolen. I am very concerned for the future of my country. If the election is 'fixed', our 'self-correcting' democracy hasn't a chance in hell to self-correct. This translates into: Jeb in '08

[Jensen]

23. Count me in!

I came here on Nov 3rd and felt right at home....I knew it had to be fraud! No way * could of won!

[mpmusicny]

24. Hi...

hi, my name is mpmusicny, I'm a lurker and a fraud believer

(all together now: "hi mpmusicny!!)

[MelissaB]

30. Hi, mpmusicny!

and all new posters. :hi:

Actually, I lurked here a long time before I posted. I was intimidated by such a large message board. When I finally decided to post, I couldn't because the membership was locked. I begged Skinner to let me in.

...and...I do believe there was fraud.

[Turn CO Blue]

25. I was lurking before the election -- but *began* posting because

of the fraud. I don't post all that often, and have only started 2 threads -- but I love hanging out on DU, and read most threads on this forum and Politics.

[kster]

26. Me Too

been following Democratic Undergound's lead since Nov,3rd. And will continue to do so.

[AlwaysDemocrat]

27. Count me in!

I was grateful to find DU just before the election. Since then - its been a lifeline to sanity. I feel like everything I used to believe about elections and the media can't be trusted now. I'm still trying to come to grips with the truth and DU helps.

[Eloriel]

29. Coming to grips with the truth is a journey

and it's a long one -- if you're talking about ALL the truth, not just the stolen elections.

Welcome to DU, everyone!! This thread brings tears to my eyes.

[clicheguevara]

28. x

[slw]

31. Yup...

Count me in, but as with the posters before me, I like "believe" rather than "know" and "listener" rather than "lurker!"

[Emit]

34. Me, too!

[12345]

32. uh huh...

absorbing and reflecting...

[seito]

33. Great Thread!

Welcome Newbies and Lurkers

[tinonedown]

36. Count me in

And I never post! Until now.

[Riding this Donkey]

37. No Doubt N/T

[NEEDLE DRIVER]

38. Commander in thief

My opinion of Shrub was not formed by newspapers, magazines, tv, and the web. Among my friends are conservatives, evangelical Christians, atheists, Jews, (I have a very inclusive hobby), Democrats, and Republicans. My friend George (R) won his city council seat in a very Democratic district. He had occasion to meet Shrub when * came to the local County Fair for the 2000 campaign.

My friend George, stauch Republican, looked into Shrub's eyes, took his measure and found him a total fucking idiot. Couldn't vote for him. A puppet. An empty suit.

SO, after the shock of 2000, and the debacle of Schwartzenegger becoming Governor I turned away from politics, numb, my vote for President impotent, my for for Governor recalled by a freaking car alarm salesman.

I avoided the newspapers, reading only the comics. Paid no attention to broadcast media.

I became aware of DU when a friend posted an article to me. I found here a forum where I could find hope.

I still want to find hope, but the landslide of stupidity is astonishing, and the certain knowledge of willful, fraudulent manipulation of the 2004 election is chilling.

I grind my teeth everyime I read in an article about "election irregularities" the evasive caveat: "we don't expect it to overturn the election"

OF COURSE IT SHOULD OVERTURN THE ELECTION!!! THE PEOPLE'S CHOICE WAS STOLEN!!!

I rage at my impotence in the face of the blind masses. There are three Republicans here at work. One of them voted for Shrub because he is an evengelical Christian. One of them is a brainwashed right wing talk show bushbot. One of them is young, stupid, and afraid of "terra".

Watching and waiting for fraud to enter the public consciousness? At this point all I've got left is to hope things fall apart so badly and so quickly that even the red masses rise up.

So what if absolute and unshakable proof of fraud in the 2004 election comes to light? Even if Bush and Cheney are impeached and hounded out of office, does that mean we get to unseat the Supreme Court Justices they crammed down our throat and miserable Cabinet appointments they made?

Ok, I don't post much. Gave up on the verbal diaharrea a while back. I suppose I could kick a couple of hundred posts, make it look like I've been around a while.

[In Truth We Trust]

66. Great summary Commander. I would encourage you to continue

expressing yourelf here as I am sure there are many who feel and experience the same as you. I am one. Welcome to DU!

Great original post! It is good to see so many new people who are here. Welcome to all of you. I too "lurked" for months after finding DU almost a year ago during the primary season. I have found that there is so much diversity here. I hope you all find it to be a community you enjoy and benefit from. Just remember to get involved in whatever capacity you can outside of DU to affect positive changet. Perhaps you will find DUer's in your area whom you can meet up with along with other activist organisations to drive the things which you believe in.

Don't worry about post counts. They don't mean shit. Just jump right in. Every person has something of value to add.

Paper Ballots NOW!
Hand Counts NOW!

[Darkhawk32]

39. Whereabouts in Missouri? n/t

[hereinmissouri]

87. Kansas City, east side n/t

[DianeD]

40. Another Listener Here

I've been glued to this forum since November 5 and experiencing all the ups and downs with everybody who posts alot! I'm sure there was fraud and I'm looking forward to more and more truth being revealed, with a lot of thank yous to all the researchers here!

[dog_lovin_dem]

41. Yes. I, too, am a firm believer

that fraud occurred. Lurking or listening? It really doesn't matter how I define it. All I'm sure of is that DU members have validated my feelings and beliefs throughout the past 2 months! Thanks to all of you! :D

[pstans]

42. Add me to the list

#42

[Daphne08]

43. Yep

[Tuesday_Morning]

44. I'm here

And it make look like I'm just lurking...but I take some of the best posts on fraud, the most compelling research, the most passionate, intelligent editorials as well as the urgent calls to action and blast them at my email list of friends, family and other rational folks.

Thanks everybody!

[Emit]

49. I do the same!

Thanks DU!

[Dave Reynolds]

45. I believe

there was fraud, too. I hesitate to post in this arena, mainly because others seem more informed than I, or someone makes a point that I agree with.

Not to mention I'm a chicken-shit....:P

[Lostnote03]

46. Veterans Park/KC-MO.....

....I used to jog there every day.....Nice post.....Best wishes from the Bluegrass

[GreatAuntK]

47. Yep

Watching, waiting, blue.

[LibDemAlways]

50. Welcome everybody!

You've come to a good place! DUers are the best and the brightest. You'll like it here, but beware. As you've probably already learned, it's addictive.

[Gelliebeans]

51. Count me in too n/t

[Woodstock Liberal]

52. Count me in with the 'no post' group n/t

[super simian]

84. Hi Woodstock Liberal!!

:hi:

Woodstock, NY? I grew up there!

[f4tc4t]

53. New here but intend to be active...

I have lurked for a while but finally decided to register and let my opinion be heard. I have mainly posted on small message boards but it is time to join this mainstream effort so I can make a difference.

Note: the name is a holdover from my old cb days and has nothing to do with my finacial status. :)

Regards
fc

fc's political links
fc's u.s. government links
JD's political hardball forum

[Blue in Tennessee]

54. No Post Believer

I am one of those who lurks (learns) from DU. I believe the elections of 2000 & 2004 were absolutely stolen! My highest praise to all the great minds here on DU. Your brilliance blows me away. I'll keep passing on info to friends, family and anyone that will listen. Thank you for all your hard work.

[bleever]

91. A huge WELCOME to all of you low- and non-posters!

Thanks being here!

:hi:

[KaryninMiami]

56. You have lots and lots of company....

There are more of us out there I believe, then anyone really knows!
Just keep spreading the truth- it will all come out. It has to. Some of us won't rest until it does.

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/

http://www.oilempire.us/stolenelection2004.html#bestwebsites

[LiveInHope]

57. Another "Listener"

and firm believer in fraud. DU gives me hope. Thanks to all who are working so hard.

[trochee]

59. absolute fraWd!!

& enough to switch the popular vote. The results had to be padded big to allow the "mandate" spin to go less contested. The truth needs to catch up with these criminals, advertising lackeys, and much of the majority still in the dark about what happened.

This is my first post after reading for months. I hope breaking the silence will help with the heartache!

[alpaca]

58. Of course there was

[Applepie]

60. Another lurker

I visit DU daily, although I am trying to cut down on the amount of time I spend here. I will check in on a regular basis so that I can continue to be active with whatever needs to be done to get our election back on track.

[tamtam]

61. Same here

I basically lurked and posted just a few times until after the election. I still mostly lurk but the stealing of the vote has gotten me more active on this board.

[holomua]

62. Me too!

I don't often have the time to post, but I check in daily to follow what's new. This is a very informative website! Also, many of my family members and friends agree that the election was rigged.

[Left coast liberal]

63. Where there is 1, there are thousands....

[Blue Pomegranate]

64. I'm here too

Benefitting from the collective wisdom, and hoping to contribute something to the cause locally in my "red" state where at least a legislative committee to study the voting machines is in place.

[americanwoman]

65. Damn Straight There Was Fraud

More to the point, it is unconscionable that Boards of Elections nation-wide cannot perform their most basic responsibility: Prove to the electorate that the election results match the intent of the voters. That is their only job - and it's not rocket science, for crying out loud.

Have been checking into DU several times daily since night of Nov 2 when I started googling for someone else who might have noticed the changing sets of exit poll numbers that night. I was particularly frantic when I did the math and noticed that the 2nd set of exit poll numbers were impossible -- that is, with more total respondents, how did the actual number of Kerry voters decrease between the two sets?

Google led me to DU, and a thread where others had noticed the same thing ... AND where someone was smart enough to have captured and posted the disparate screen shots.

I don't think of myself as a lurker. Contributing where I can, but not into the kick thing. Thanks all!

[trueblueliberal]

67. I believe too....I just wish we could find the 'smoking gun'

that would convince the rest of America. --sigh--

[octopi]

68. Here too

I created this account simply to respond to this thread. I'm deeply concerned with the election fraud that has occurred. I personally read all 102 pages of Conyer's report the day it was released. I watched all two hours on 1/6 off of C-Span. What disturbed me most was that I felt that not one of the Republicans had read the report they were responding to. I spend many hours on this site and others every day. I exchange knowledge with over a dozen like minded individuals who live near me. We each peruse different news sources and then discuss, while trying to come to an understanding of the truth, based on what we are being told and who is telling us. Most truths we come too are depressing. None the less, this website gives me hope, and leaves a smile on my face. To a better tomorrow. Sing while you may.

[LeeB]

69. Another "me, too!"

I've been a lurker since January 2001. (I like that word. I visualize myself in a trenchcoat and fedora whenever it pops up - it's VERY becoming.) And count me among those who go a little bit more nutz when hearing "but we don't expect it to change the outcome." I am sick to death of the creeps walking off with all the marbles when they cheated to get there and if (when!)they are exposed, they deserve to be packed off to prison.

My wingnutty friend can testify that I've been screaming fraud since first witnessing the spectacle of James Baker standing in front of the cameras demanding that votes in Florida NOT be counted. (?!) Said friend has been totally unsuccessful ever since in his efforts to shut me up. My ravings had some effect, though, because he claims he could not vote for * in 2004 and he frequently slips and admits * is a menace. He still doesn't believe 2004 was stolen (he's not a quick study!), but he is providing considerable amusement with his jumping up and down claiming he wuz robbed here in the governor's race (but he doesn't like Rossi - I think that term "wingnut" has stuck for a reason).

Our local Karl Rove wannabe, Chris Vance, and his pal, Rossi, cannot seem to grasp how hilarious they appear with all their righteous indignation. I'm really quite grateful they are contesting the election - just maybe the manipulations in Snohomish (and Yakima?) County will get some national attention and people will begin to see how it happened in Ohio, Florida, and elsewhere. Another bozo has started a campaign to recall SoS Sam Reed, apparently because he refused to "deliver" the job to fellow Republican Rossi, choosing to follow the actual law instead. Wouldn't it be great if the fuss they are making here became one of the issues that leads to the collapse of the national scheme!

Anyway, DU is great . . . Terrific minds and so many pairs of eyes keeping track of the doings all over the country - much more than any of us could do by ourselves. So I send information learned here to a bunch from my email list, too. Giving up is not an option.

[OKJackson]

70. I've only posted once and I believe...

That there is sufficient proof that those cheated their worthless rears into office.

[Pacifist Patriot]

71. I am so thrilled to see all these posts. Thank you!

[pkanalyst]

72. Me too!

Been watching since election night! Thank you to all the people who post regularly. DU is the best source of news updates! First thing I do when I get home is run to the computer to check du :)

[tinfoilinfor2005]

73. Count me in toooooooooo....

I work in a business where I come in contact with hundreds of people every day...and the buzz out there is "another election stolen". Too bad the people who had the tools to do something about it didn't think it was all that important.

[MadisonProgressive]

74. Wow! This thread just broke the record for lowest average post count!

[sepia_steel]

75. Hello, noobs!

I"m still sort of a noob myself. I love noobs; glad you're all here! This proves there are more of us working on this then we realize, which is AWESOME.

[noclonyofthechimp]

76. Count me

[katywho]

77. I'm here.

I've been lurking here for some time, too. This is the source for the real news, and I am so thankful for it. Like you, I watch and wait. (And participate by emailing, contributing, etc.)

[lonestarnot]

78. And we either continue to post or not post and look through the looking

glass.

[Esse Quam Videri]

79. Been lurking since election

Truly believe that fraud occurred

[MellowOne]

80. I found DU after the election

After Kerry won three presidential debates and was ahead in exit polls, I was shocked after the election. I knew fraud must have occurred. Like someone else said, DU gave me hope. It's good to be among openminded people with the intelligence to think for themselves.

[MadCritic]

81. Count Me In

I've been lurking faithfully since Nov. 3.

[grace0418]

82. I actually took a break from DU because I couldn't

face all the proof that there was fraud knowing that nothing would be done about it. I kept hoping for a miracle, but it didn't come. I will be wearing black on Thursday for sure.

[xynthee]

83. yes, there was fraud (enough to change outcome) n/t

[proudtobeadem]

85. More than enough to change the vote. :(

[Donailin]

86. I think we've been robbed

and I think we'll be robbed again in 2006.

I saw Chuck Hagel on TV the other day. Here's a brief history of his "victory" in his run for senate.

ES&S:
Chuck Hagel first ran for the U.S. Senate in Nebraska in 1996. Electronic voting machines owned by Election Systems & Software (ES&S) reported that he had won both the primaries and the general election in unprecedented victories. His 1996 victory was considered one of the biggest upsets of that election. He was the first Republican to win a Nebraska senatorial campaign in 24 years and won virtually every demographic group, including many largely black communities that had never before voted Republican.

Six years later Hagel ran again against Democrat Charlie Matulka in 2002, and won in a landslide. He was re-elected to his second term with 83% of the vote: the biggest political victory in the history of Nebraska. Again, the votes were counted by ES&S, now the largest voting machine company in America.

While these victories could be dismissed simply as a Republican upset, a January 2003 article in the independent Washington paper The Hill revealed interesting details about Hagel's business investments and casts a different light on his election successes. Chuck Hagel was CEO of ES&S (then AIS) until 1995 and he is still a major stockholder of the parent company of ES&S, McCarthy & Company."


In Florida, ground zero for election problems, ES&S retained the services of a former secretary of state and one-time running mate of Governor Jeb Bush. In 2001, Global Election Systems (Diebold's predecessor) hired the former chair of Florida's Republican Party, the former running mate of a previous governor, and a former environmental advisor to Jeb Bush, according to the Miami Herald. The lobbyist trying to win the $24.5 million Miami-Dade contract for ES&S was a top GOP lawyer who worked against the recount in 2000. The Votomatic punch-card machines at the center of the 2000 Florida election debacle were, ironically enough, also manufactured by ES&S."


Conflict of interest? That term, along with "full transparency" and "checks and balances" no longer applies to the GOP. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a fucking duck, Godammit.

But nobody blinks, lest they get crucified in the GOP controlled media for doing so.

[mirandapriestly]

88. I wonder if * cheated against Richards for Texas Governor

he had Rove with him then and when he "won" her approval ratings were 60 or 70 % depending on what you read.
that's the kind of thing I wonder about but don't post. I just agree with people about stuff they say.

[proudtobeadem]

89. I'm sure there are

plenty of people who won't even post in this thread because they don't want to be linked to this site -because it's probably being monitored by the dark side...

[redpillflux]

90. Yes, and yes.

There is simply no credible evidence to support the belief that the certified election results are legitimate.

My initial doubt rested in the knowledge that there is no auditable record of about 1/3 of the votes that were cast on 11/2. This is well beyond the margin of "victory", leaving plenty of room for siphoning off votes. While this fact in itself is hardly proof of wrong-doing, it is the seed that led me to start asking some pointed questions (which led me here in pretty short order). This is not the thread for recapping all of the evidence that has come to light since then. Suffice it to say, the reaction of the "winners" may be the most damning evidence of all.

If you had won an election and had confidence that the results reflected the true will of the people and had not been influenced by fraudulent means, would you conceal/destroy evidence and obstruct every effort to validate the outcome? Wouldn't you want to remove all doubt in the outcome? Would your conscience not demand it?

DU has been an invaluable research hub in the wake of 11/2. Thanks to those who post their findings -- even the nay-sayers are useful as they provide the whetstone for the sharpening of our logic. Like others who have replied to this thread, I frequently forward key sources to a small group of friends. The DU bullhorn is larger than it appears at first glance!

/passive mode off

[lucca]

92. Yes, there was fraud!

And, it gets me sick when I think that once again, we have another stolen election.

We need to get rid of all electronic voting machines.
I don't trust them.
I don't like them.
Why were they ever allowed to be used?

[The Time is Now]

93. The exit poll discrepancies prove it for me.

Throw in the usual - and unusual kinds of disenfranchisement thuggery and it can't be denied.

PS As many listeners/noobies/lurkers what-have-you that have responded to this thread, I can guarantee that there are much greater numbers out there coming to this forum for news and information. We then go and write, or call, or show up at protests. Wearing orange.

I was one of those many before I signed on and have now reached the 5-post mark. Whoo-oo!.

Okay, hold on, me see if I can get this hat on...

:tinfoilhat:

There!