We need to be prepared for fraud being found on both sides-Scary but true.

[New Earth]

Seriously, we need to be ready emotionally if it is proved there was fraud on both sides, Dem. and/or Repub. I'm trying to adjust my mindset in case that ends up being true. I think everyone else should as well. As much as pushing for election reform and 'open, fair, transparent' elections is a non-partisan issue, so should fighting and investigating election fraud. Just be ready to try to put an end to it all! No matter who committed it!

[RaulVB]

1. Of course you saw fraud here before...

The thing is this time is blatant and THE SCALE OF IT IS BEYOND BELIEF!

Criminals don't belong to a political party

They belong in jail.

[New Earth]

5. i just think we need to be ready for the backlash.

i also believe this was probably the most massive case. but if the can of worms is opened on this one....imagine what the Republicans will dig into to prove it's been committed by the Dems. as well, even if it was on a smaller scale.

[RaulVB]

12. Well, if the Democrats don't have a TV network on the air soon...

Is that simple, Faye.

We need our own "FOX News".

Sounds wrong but we need to be realistic here.

[Clark2008]

30. Do we need our own Fox or do we need to demand

that our reporters and journalists act TRULY fair and balanced?

[RaulVB]

31. Tactical approach

We need our OWN TV network.

It is necessary to control the message, not tomorow, TODAY.

The corporate media minions can't be reached by us and will not listen to popular pressure.

[flyarm]

58. well get ready fox is

going to start their own satellite radio as well to compete with sirrus and xm...

guess thats so all the cons don't have to listen to anything but rush & hannity all day!

fly

[Joe Chi Minh]

47. Much, much, much smaller scale, Faye.

There was not the remotest need for it. It would have been insanity. Kerry was always going to walk it. A landslide win.

[berniew1]

68. There was widespread vote machine fraud found in many states

Florida, Ohio, New Mexico http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html
Texas(Austin,Houston,SanAntonio) http://www.flcv.com/texas.html
Pennsylvania http://www.flcv.com/mercerco.html
Washington http://www.flcv.com/snohomis.html
California http://www.flcv.com/orangets.html
New Mexico http://www.flcv.com/bernalil.html
North Carolina, Wisconsin, Indiana, Texas, etc.
(default straight ticket Dem to Bush)


So why has nothing been done about it so far??

[Joe Chi Minh]

69. I couldn't agree more, Bernie.

ALL of it!

[Kota]

2. I agree and I don't care if people from both sides go to jail.

[lostnfound]

6. Ditto. If prosecutions happen fairly, the more the merrier.

However, the chances of the GOP being dealt the same hand on this as the Dems are slim to none, due to current political environment.

[donheld]

3. If we are not prepared for fraud being found on both sides

We may not be prepared to face the truth. I'm sure there are wrong doings on both sides. If we can't face our wrong doings how can we insist the otherside do the same.

[Joe Chi Minh]

66. Are there people here who want

any Democratic fraudsters discovered treated with kid gloves? Surely not. That would be criminal folly from any perspective.

The system has to be brought up to the level of other developed countries. Even some that are economically disadvantaged but sophisticated in other ways. I really think it is important to stress the credibility deficit with "de facto" advanced democracies.

The British people were blind-sided by Blair's duplicity, and left without any plausible prospect of Socialist representation; but I don't believe there has ever been any question of electoral fraud in general elections in terms of the conduct of the voting and counting procedures.

[EFerrari]

4. That's right. Time to clean both sides of the house. n/t

[LisaM]

7. Of course, they define fraud a bit differently

for instance, some poor people were paid to register people to vote. Many of them created a number of phony registrations and submitted them. This does not mean that the fake people (e.g., for Mickey Mouse, etc.) actually voted! I keep hearing this argument used to describe voter fraud until I could scream. Unless "Mickey Mouse" actually got on the rolls 20 times and 20 people named Mickey Mouse showed up to vote, I don't care how many times someone attempted to register that name. It clearly didn't create a voter name on the rolls. It's unfortunate - and the registration attempt was fraudulent - but this is not voter fraud. Further, I am tired of hearing A.C.O.R.N. described as affiliated with the Democratic Party. If A.C.O.R.N. hired poor people who created fake registration forms, it is hardly the fault of the DNC.

[bush_is_wacko]

8. Faye, I think you are right on.

I have been thinking this for a while now. I know here in Colorado there were cases of Democrat registration workers throwing out and tearing up Republican voter registrations. There was also mention made that people were be paid for ONLY Democrat registrations or ONLY Republican registrations.

Election reform is the goal, but I hope like hell the above is the ONLY accusations we can make of the Dem's.

I think I'm gonna need some serious consoling IF the implications are that Dem's were every bit as bad as the Republicans.

[New Earth]

9. well my gut feeling tells me

that whatever the Dems. have done, it wasn't half as bad as Repubs, and i think that any majority of Dem. fraud was mostly in registrations - and most of the Repub. fraud was in the voting machines and voter supression. Both, of course, inexcusable.

[bush_is_wacko]

15. I agree, inexcusable, but

it seems to me the Repubs are dirty from top to bottom. There is no question, however, here that the Dems did do what I say they did, so they have engaged in the activity as well. It is sad to think THIS is the way our parties behave.

[flyarm]

59. you are right..and my gut says...

look at richardson n.m....why is he being such a jerk and not allowing recounts?? and cleaning off the machines...something isn't right in gotham city...know what i mean??

fly

[seabeyond]

10. whomever goes to jail. dont care what side

i know who committed the greatest, did the best job at fraud

i thought a month ago, what are the dems hiding. felt strongly they were hiding their own fraud, or something, payoff whatever. so i am already prepared. about our vote

[DearAbby]

11. If true it needs to rooted out...somehow I am not surprised.

:( ...but it too needs full investigation.

[ClassWarrior]

13. Why do you need to adjust anything??

Fairness is fairness. That's a Progressive value. If someone's committing a crime, they have to do the time. Simple as that. Bring it on.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

19. In fact, what's even the point of a thread like this??

What good does it do except sow doubt about the ethics of our own people??

NGU.

[EFerrari]

25. Sowing doubt isn't equal to honest self assessment.

One is nefarious; the other is necessary for any group that would remain viable.

[New Earth]

26. ok then, if you think it's that bad

ask a mod to lock it. i'm just trying to help, sorry.

[Philly Buster]

27. I think a thread like this is a good thing

I lurked here for a long time before registering. Part of the reason I held off for so long was that while I generally agree with the principles expounded here, I was turned off by the, dare I say it?, "Kool Aid" drinkers. If a poster dares to question the status quo they are pilloried without mercy. The exit poll threads are a good example.

A thread like this allows for open minded discussion.

[Amaryllis]

38. Somebody please explain references to Kool aid?

[Philly Buster]

41. Jim Jones cult in Guyana drank poisoned Kool aid

and committed suicide en mass.

Now "Kool Aid drinkers" refers to people who don't question group think. It's severe indoctrination.

[Amaryllis]

52. Thanks. I was thinking maybe reference to Ken Kesey--Electric Kool Aid

Acid Test, for those of us in the 60s generation! Either way, it indicates not exactly the clearest thinking.

[Quakerfriend]

14. So true Faye

But, it is absolutely amazing how few stories of dem fraud there are thus far. God knows, they've (KKKRove and friends) been looking for them!

Sadly, I believe they'll fabricate a few if the kitchen gets to hot to bare.

[New Earth]

16. even if it's fabricated by KKKarl & Friends

we need to make sure the issue is framed at ending the fraud in general, not directed to one side or the other.

[Amaryllis]

39. NPR did a study on fraud/suppressioin before the elections; mostly

related to registrations, but some with machines that were discovered before the election even began. They found two cases of Dem fraud involving small numbers but many involving Repubs, some as many as thousands of voters (e.g. Blackwell and the paper weight issue).

[hippiegranny]

17. Well, that's fine,

because in my most humble opinion, I think we're going to find a shitload more fraud on the Pub side. Think about how every single "irregularity" or "glitch" always falls on the W side of the fence. Think about how many S.O.S.'s were also W campaign chairs. Think about how it is always the heavily dem districts (read ethnic) that get screwed on voter roll foul-ups, inadequate voting machine numbers, poll challengers. Go ahead and let them open that can of worms, I am 99.9% sure we might have have a few little worms, but they've got boa constrictors.

[New Earth]

18. i agree, definately more fraud on Repub side.

i'm just trying to bring attention to the fact of what might come out, just so we are ready.

[demodonkey]

20. Let's face it, the Retugs will blame the Dems for ALL if...

any fraud is found on EITHER side.

We need to be ready for that.

[meow2u3]

44. Rethugs will try to cover up their own massive fraud by pointing out...

one, or a few, isolated incidents of fraud perpetrated by a Dem, and they'll scream, "But Democrats do it, too."
:nopity::cry::nopity::cry:nopity:
In their heads, it'll justify their corrupt pattern of perpetrating systematic election fraud and blackmail the Dems into silence.

[FreepFryer]

21. Anyone who would rig an election, Dem or Republican, is un-American.

The cavalier behavior of various individuals so far implicated in Election Fraud 2004 is just another sign of the complete disregard for America these careerists cannot manage to conceal. So far, the preponderance of irregularity reported favors Bush to an alarmingly non-random degree.

It's up to us to set this abuse of America right. The neo-cons think Liberal Democracy failed, because civil rights brings civil disorder... but they were the ones assassinating the leaders and silently provoking the masses to violence.

We can take back our country's destiny. We all know we can reach great heights. We are the next, greatest generation.

Believe in yourself.

[ottozen]

22. Who benefits?

As I recall, one key element to the intentional tort of fraud is that someone, or some legal entity, is hurt by it. What was presumably a fair, arms length deal was skewed by misrepresentation of material facts upon which the victim of fraud relied to their detriment.

The election analogy is that the consent of the governed is garnered by the representations of the governing entities that the governed choose their representatives via their vote, which is ostensibly duly recorded and counted. If the election is an intentional sham (presumably of necessity) then the majority of the people who voted have relied on the representation that the election was fair to their detriment and the winner of the election has benefited thereby.

The remedy, were this a contract, would be to place the respective parties to the agreement in the position that they would have been in, absent the fraud.

Please look at which political party benefited from the results of this election. In a contract situation, the language would be construed against the party committing the fraud.

Why do entities commit fraud? Could the stakes be any higher?

[Alizaryn]

23. Exactly, just fix it.

[troubleinwinter]

24. "Let all of the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out" (I Claudius)

If someone is indicted for bank robbery or rape, we do not ask his political party affiliation. Fraud is a crime, no matter who commits it.

That said, I have SEEN fraud by repubs. Thus far, I have not seen it by Dems. Not saying it isn't so, just saying I have not seen any compelling indication yet.

Fraud is fraud, crime is crime. But let's not do Rove's work for him. I expect that the next claim will be "Democrats do it all the time!", in order to deflect from the ACTUAL EVIDENCE of GOP election fraud 2004.

[gkhouston]

32. If the Dems have been cheating, we'll paddle their pants, too.

We should look into all plausible claims of wrongdoing, and I'm sure the Reps will invent a few, if necessary. Our message, IMHO, should be about rooting out election fraud wherever we find it and not about which political party is more guilty. I think the vast majority of Americans want honest elections. If we can get the focus on honest elections and *keep* the focus on honest elections and not on which political party cheats more, we will accomplish a hell of a lot more in cleaning up the electoral system, and isn't that what we really want in the long run?

Gina

[catgirl]

28. Be prepared to read about dems and fraud

because the MSM will concentrate heavily on it.
You won't hear a word about the repugs though.
You're right. What does one do? Go with the "if you
can't beat them, join them? Play them at their own
game? Or FIGHT. Let's fight everyone.

[housewolf]

29. You're right

I agree with you that election fraud can be found on both sides (as a minor example, tires slashed on the vans of repub voter-helpers on election day so that they couldn't drive folks to the polls). If we truly want "free, fair, open and transparent elections" we much be prepared that some of the dirt is going to blow our way. We act like hypocrites if we aren't apply the same standards to ourselves.

[Mister Ed]

33. Kudos to Faye and all the rest of you.

You give me hope and courage.

This thread illustrates the difference between us and them. We have principles, and we are willing to apply those principles to ourselves and not just to others. We are capable of questioning ourselves. We believe that there are some things that are more important than our immediate agenda. Things like truth.

I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It's the antidote - the only antidote - tho the lies and fear spread by the neocons.

[Philly Buster]

42. You are so right

:toast:

[claudiajean]

34. This is a very important point. Thank you for this post, Faye.

While we would like to believe that we progressives are the honest ones, and the republicans have all of the cheaters, the regrettable fact is that some of our own become so impassioned and/or so fixated on winning at all costs, that ethics can go by the wayside.

Do I think that republicans cheat more than Democrats? Yes.

But do some Democrats cheat and commit election fraud? Sadly, yes.

We need to be equally opposed to election fraud committed by our friends as we are that committed by enemies.

Thanks for an important, thought-provoking thread.

[hootinholler]

35. Faye, you know how I feel about this.

I also had a rant in the Velvet Revolution thread (can't search or I'd provide link).

Let the chips fall where they may. In my simple mind, individual acts are treason and coordinated acts are sedition. Both are capital offenses in wartime, and possibly in peace time too.

-Hoot

[Andy_Stephenson]

65. Boy do I ever

agree with that Hoot.

[k8conant]

36. I think we should enforce the laws equally...

but I'd start with that guy who voted for Bush in his dead wife's name and bragged about it in the newspaper.

Heck, I never tried to get my step-mom to vote for Kerry in my dad's name (he lived in Florida and died April 29, 2004). I know he would have voted for Kerry.

And then....ta da....drum roll....we find out who engineered the superFraud.

[understandinglife]

37. Faye, anyone who tampers with the franchise goes to jail...

...that's my only metric.

For the 2004 national election I've stated repeatedly in all my correspondence to the media and to elected officials -- WE HAVE NO ELECTION.

I don't need fraud to be proven to make that claim stick. I can make it stick with the simple reality that any person who used a vapor-ballot device (touchscreen or otherwise) has no way of knowing beyond a reasonable doubt that their vote was recorded as they intended. Since over 30 % of our fellow citizens used such devices, WE HAVE NO ELECTION.

Now, let's add to that just the 102 page "STATUS" report, on ONLY Ohio, from the Democratic members of the House Judiciary Committee. WE HAVE NO ELECTION.

So, the mantra is obvious.

And, if someone proves a Democrat or an Independent or a Green or anyone else knowingly contributed to the disenfranchisement of just one of our fellow citizens -- GO TO JAIL, is my only response.

Like torture, like starting illegal wars, like lying to Congress, disenfranchisement is NOT a partisan issue. That is why, in my letters to Senator Kerry, two of which I've posted at DU since 2 Nov 2004, I've stated clearly to him -- Senator you can't win this election. No one can 'win' this election because we already know that large numbers of our fellow citizens were disenfranchised or cast vapor ballots for which they have no way of ever being certain were counted as they intended.

The ONLY thing that happened on 2 Nov 2004 that all of us can be certain is that we did not elect anyone because the system used is invalid at its core.

Peace.

"When Did Bush Know?"

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. Brace yourself!

Yes, but the won who is the most victorious in the polls, is also probably the one that will be the guiltiest.

[KnowerOfLogic]

43. Could be why dems don't want to open this can of worms, but i

don't care; wherever there has been fraud, let it be found and prosecuted. The parasitic ruling class has been taking americans for chumps for too long. It is time to clean house from top to bottom.

[bklyncowgirl]

46. I've been saying the same thing myself

I'm originally from Brooklyn where the dead have been known to come to life on election day and now live in New Jersey where the watchword is "vote early vote often". (just kidding)

Of course some Democrats are involved in election fraud--usually on a small scale local level. But let's face it, the Democrats have never conceived of anything like the Republican advances in the art of voter suppression and computer manipulation on a nationwide scale no less.

Like the great Bob Dylan said:

"You know that patriotism is the last refuge
to which a scoundrel clings.
Steal a little and they'll throw you in jail
steal alot and they'll make you King."

[12345]

45. definitely...

i heard about dems slashing tires in the mid-west...big difference is they don't own the election machines. i think that whoever has the opportunity takes advantage of it. we just need to minimize the opportunity...

[IStriker]

48. I agree. I hate the thought that fraud steals the vote...

of any lawful voter and I want a bipartisan bill that will prosecute any and all who participate with BIG penalties and ENFORCEMENT! I'm sick of this crap where they catch somebody redhanded and treat it like it's a parking ticket.

[OKthatsIT]

49. Maybe we ought to fabricate more fraud on our parts

....scare them into supporting 'open source code' and paper trail.

Personally, I think we ought to revert back to paper ballots without scanners or modem transfers. Where each voter puts his/her ballot into a locked box, bipartisan count.

[Pacifist Patriot]

50. I've had that thought myself. You are entirely correct.

[Horse with no Name]

51. That thought has lurked in my head

and had me wondering why more Democrats didn't stand?
Was it because they had evidence of wrong doing?
Hard to say.
But any evidence of election fraud-no matter what side of the fence--needs to be dealt with.

[brindis_desala]

64. Ah, the great philosophical divide

Present-day Democrats expect the best of their leaders, Republicans generally the worst. Election fraud is as old as Tammany Hall and Cook County. The difference now is twofold 1) African-Americans are
no longer content to see their votes routinely treated with disdain and 2) the advent of computer tabulations and increasing sophisticated Republican ruses borrowed from the CIA which routinely fixes foreign elections.

[Amaryllis]

53. There sure is something weird going on with the Dem gov in NH with the

efforts to wipe clean the machines before Cobb and Badnarik can do a forensic audit. The Dems there seem to be as bad as Kathy Blackwell.

[genieroze]

54. Absolutely. eom

[Kashka-Kat]

55. no problem-- we just create truly non-partisan movement

from a post I just sent to green party list having a similar discussion:

........ Im not suggesting to sit down w/ Karl Rove or anything like that, but to somehow reach moderates/ independents to create a truely non partisan Pro-Democracy Movement. The beauty of the Greens/ Libs is that they (we) aren't beholden to either the Democratic OR the Republican party, that we CAN take a truly principled stand in situations where one is called for. Whether this situation in Washington is one of those, I really don't know, but the point is if we want credibility then we really DO have to be consistent. .

Yes I do know that 99% of the anomolies reported thusfar favored Bush. Yes I have seen the Snohomish Co. report and yes it does look suspicious. But if there proves to be DEM fraud as well then we MUST take a stand against it. Yes I know that the "crack for votes" thing was isolated incident and not a systemic problem w/ the naacp.... but there still is no reason to justify it or minimize it or get defensive about it--wrong is wrong. I know most of us were secretly (or not so secretly) hoping the Ohio recount would dump Bush, but isn't it also about fairness, truth, equality, accuracy and integrity of the vote for all citizens?

There are other issues as well (environment, workers rights, reproductive choices, etc.) which when taken on an issue by issue basis, actually do enjoy majority support so there is some hope that by working on an issue by issue basis some movement can happen. It has nothing to do with compromise, or giving up principles but only finding what common ground there is and working with it. A good illustration is how some conservative groups and indviduals are working with the ACLU-- esp. since patriot act.

In order to do that we have to be believable. People arent stupid, they can see the difference between maneuvering or playing the system to win .... and taking a truly nonpartisan position of fighting for integrity of the vote for all Americans. The strategy of Gore and Gregoire for example was about getting the votes to win, period. And Kerry's actions (or lack of) was entirely predicated upon whether he felt he could win or not ... Im not putting down the Dems for doing this--it is their job after all to try to win elections ( and if anything I think Kerry couldve tried a little harder! )

Only to say that there is room for-- heck, a crying need for-- a truly non partisan position of complete fairness & accuracy of the vote-- for ALL people.

[Donailin]

56. Fraud on both sides has crossed my mind also

why else would there be no visible and tangible outrage from the democratic party from top to bottom? I've wracked my brain on this, and it is the only logical explanation. I hope I'm wrong, but. . .

[Helga Scow Stern]

57. We also have to prepared for allegations of fraud

that may or may not be true. Remember the letter that Feeney wrote to the Department of Justice, signed by 50 Republican Congresspeople, alledging suspected fraud by Democrats in the coming election? That is how they always reframe the issue. If they could do it about candidates' war records, they can do it about fraud. Start blaming the other side for what you are guilty of. This is most likely exactly what is planned in the upcoming hearing or investigation planned by Ney.

I agree with your point, and I am sure there are instances of the Dem side not being on the up and up....probably some big examples, as New Mexico looks very suspicious and is under Dem control.

I guess the most important thing is to keep our eyes on the truth.

[Laurab]

60. I guess I'm amazed

that the rethugs haven't come up with anything yet. Fraud is fraud, and if it exists, it needs to be fixed. I do hope there is a way to expose the electronic fraud that I'm pretty positive occurred, because that's where I think the real dangerous fraud happened.

I'm prepared - I just wish the right didn't own the media. This isn't really a partisan issue, but I AM partisan, and believe if we were any good at fraud, we would have won the election. I'm kind of proud that we're not good at it, but boy do I wish we'd won the election. Well we probably did, but I mean officially.

I think maybe we'll need to be media watchdogs on this one.

[TruthIsAll]

61. This time it was virtually 100% Repuke. Just look at the anomalies.

Don't fall for the crap that "both sides are guilty".

Nothing is 100%. But this one is close to it.
Repukes cheated every way imaginable.
That is obvious.

[meganmonkey]

62. Anyone who perpetrates fraud is on the same side

of the prison wall, I hope, when all is said and done.

I am just amazed at how many people are just now coming to terms with the fact that, in general, many career politicians are tricky and shady no matter what side they're on.

[helderheid]

63. totally agree

This is a non-partisan issue. I want to see fair elections for ALL parties. Our government should represent the people, and if the majority don't agree with my ideals, so be it.

[berniew1]

67. There was also widespread dirty tricks & suppression to reduce minority vo

votes; also lots of malfeasance by officials

http://www.flcv.com/dirtytrf.html
http://www.flcv.com/EIRSFLa2.html
http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm
http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexi...

see the big DU thread on Regestration fraud; signing up Dems and throwing their cards away.
http://www.flcv.com/cuyahovs.html
http://www.flcv.com/cuyahopb.html
http://www.flcv.com/mercerco.html
http://www.flcv.com/neworlea.html

[tommcintyre]

70. CAUTION! This "position" can/will be used to "reframe the debate"

I read the entire thread before commenting; but I have to admit, a few alarms went off immediately on reading the original post. I thought, intentional or not, this plays right into the hands of "Rovian" tactics.

Ojai Person (above) was spot-on in saying: "That is how they always reframe the issue. If they could do it about candidates' war records, they can do it about fraud. Start blaming the other side for what you are guilty of. This is most likely exactly what is planned in the upcoming hearing or investigation planned by Ney." <To learn more about this type of tactic, watch "Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential". Classic Rove is to attack your strength - overwhelming GOP election fraud compared to relatively small Dem problems in this case.>

That was my first thought on reading the original post. I remember a very pissed off Ney saying he would hold "legitimate" hearings (in late January) focusing on the "important" issues such as VOTER (NOT election) fraud. I remember my "manipulation alarms" going off then too, as I heard him emphasize the relatively minor Dem-related miscues. (Not so coincidentally, Ney's news conference came right after Conyers and Jackson seemed to be making some "dangerous" headway in uncovering/exposing all of this.)

Also, ClassWarrior (above) was spot-on in saying: "In fact, what's even the point of a thread like this?? What good does it do except sow doubt about the ethics of our own people??" CW made these comments early on, and they proved to be true. Without exception, all commenters in this thread agreed that election/vote fraud was bad, no matter who commits it. Duh! That's like posing the question: "Should we be as mad at Dem polluters as GOP ones? Again, the answer is obvious. <In debate/persuasive speaking parlance, this is known as setting up a straw man (an indefensible non-issue), and knocking him down (discrediting the indefensible non-issue). The point is to distract from the real issue, which in this case is meaningful election reform - NOT on whether the Dems also had some problems and should be held accountable for them.>

So, tying all this together, how specifically could all this deception/deflection be used to attempt to derail the meaningful election reform movement? Besides changing (detracting from) the general focus, there could be an attempt to equivocate Dem misdeeds with the GOP's. For example, take the comment (above), "whatever the Dems. have done, it wasn't half as bad as Repubs". Although it looks supportive on the surface, it could easily lead the less informed/more easily influenced to conclude that the Dems errors were much greater than they actually are, thus deflecting (negating) from the grave misdeeds of the GOP.

[New Earth]

71. i'm going to ask to have this thread deleted.

i only inteded to remind people to keep it in mind. i do see what you are saying and i think it should be gone.

[New Earth]

73. btw

before it is deleted, in part i was trying to say to get READY for "Rovian tactics". (or whatever)

[tandem5]

74. yes exactly...

I'll concede it wasn't Republicans that committed this fraud - although they would probably call themselves Republicans.

The fundamental framing error is in believing this is in terms of political parties. This is how they hide. They are only too happy to muddle the issue to make it appear that it is "also happening on the other side" and that its just "politics as usual."

Consider the implications of Fox's "fair and balanced" mantra. Does that term equate to objectivity? How does that statement reconcile with the often lopsided truth? I'm not trying to single out a single news firm or even mainstream media in general. I'm just trying to point out that being non-biased is not an exercise in "fairness."

I share tommcintyre's apprehension. Don't arbitrarily "balance" the issue to satisfy some altruistic need - you'll only neutralize the truth.

[johnaries]

72. In other words, we need to be completely non-partisan in our approach.

As some have pointed out, Rove will try to spin and make it sound like Dems are to blame. But, as long as we LOUDLY PROCLAIM that we support investigations into ALL allegations of fraud and back up our words with our actions, his spin will be undermined. Then, when they claim "sour grapes" we can say "no, we supported investigations in all instances, not just cases where Dem's lost".

This is a Democracy issue, not just a Democrat issue.