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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:14 PM
Original message
Poll question: Why was election fraud allowed to occur?
Seriously, after 2000, ALL Dems, including the most powerful, knew this was a possibility. We had months to prepare! We had money!! Lawyers were hired, volunteers were mobilized, and people were expecting it. The swing states were under intense scrutiny.

Still, it happened. Whatever we did to prevent it was not effective. What can we do differently next time? We need to start ACTING now, before 2006. Is it too late?

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sweetladybug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. The news media and talk radio is owned and controlled by
Republicans and the Bush Crime Family
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d.l.Green Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. The media didn't prevent us from
coming up with good, hard indisputable evidence. I truly believe there was massive fraud of all sorts going on, but I think we were caught off guard. We need to become the media, refine HAVA to mean something and maybe get many more strong Democratic election officials in place.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Because we let the money in...
...many years ago. It has since quietly bought itself greater and greater influence, and now buys silence.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Eloquently put
------------------------------------------------------
Join the new Boston Tea Party!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/index.htm#shopping
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sometimes crime is allowed to occur as an entrapment.
I'm guessing there was some evidence gathered which we are not aware of, and since investigations still continue, it's hard to say whether Dem's allowed it to happen because of one or several of the reasons listed in your poll...is really premature to say at this point.

Only time will tell...
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hereinmissouri Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Interesting question
Why did I, who knows nothing, start worrying about the voting machines long before the election. I didn't even know about the scary computer method of tabulating the punch card votes.

I kept hearing Kerry accuse Bush of going to war without a plan to win the peace. Would Kerry be in an election without a plan to win the fraud?

I have to vote "Other". I don't think all the evidence is in on this.
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mousie Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. I've had that thought too...
thought maybe Kerry had to "allow" them to do what they would do in order to catch them... started thinking like that when Nader asked for a recount to check those machines, etc., had the thought that maybe it was all a plan to catch them in the act! This is certainly no easy task, to uncover something as big as this! But SERIOUS PROGRESS has been made this time around, as let down as we are that bush will still be inaugurated... I think we're gonna get things fixed with our election process!
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Dems at fault
Problems were known in 2000, 2002, and mow 2004

"Why was election fraud allowed to occur?"

After the THIRD TIME? I checked asleep at the wheel.

This does not excuse the media from not reporting, but if your OWN FUCKING PARTY has no interest in making it an issue, well, there you go.

I also agree in regard to the letting big money in comment. The entire system is corrupt.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Dems Were Powerless To Stop It
Edited on Fri Jan-14-05 07:58 PM by AndyTiedye
Republicans own the news. They own the voting machines.
We are screwed.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. I know it seems that way
but don't give up, my friend!
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. Here's another problem
"if your OWN FUCKING PARTY has no interest in making it an issue, well, there you go."

Whose party is it after all? Is it really one party, and who is pulling the strings where, and for what purpose?

I voted media as the main problem, because if we had decent media, no matter who was mucking around, they would be covering it. There is no one answer, IMO. It's the media that should be keeping track of all the details, so when political parties fail, voting methods fail, and all else fails, we know what's going on.

Yeah, right.
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rdmccur Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. How about "all of the above"
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Corporate Media
They have too much to lose to tell the truth.
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Philly Buster Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. Election fraud has been around since the 18th century
Neither party wants to seriously deal with it.

HAVA was a start but it didn't go nearly far enough. It was a compromised bill that merely put lipstick on a pig.

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d.l.Green Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I just finished reading Harvey Wasserman's
"History of the United States"(written in 1972, horrible flow). Judging from this alternative look at our history, elections have been stolen and flawed all along. It actually makes the 2000 and 2004 election years look like the best yet. Disenfranchisement and stuffing the ballots has always been common practice.

I think the only way to improve the system is to become the media- the net seems to be doing a good job of that- focus on talking points and embarrass the Repugs into submission (or at least get their constituency to challenge them). And also on a local level making sure our poll watchers take "glitches" more seriously.
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Philly Buster Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. Read Votescam for a good look into modern vote fraud
It's by James and Kenneth Collier (both now deceased) and chronicles their activism in election reform in the 70's through early 90's.

It's been years since I read it but it really opened my eyes. I need to find it and re read it to refresh my memory.

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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. HAVA was probably started with good intentions
to address the problems but the Dems allowed the Repukes to turn it into just another way for the rich corporations to line their pockets with our tax dollars.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Something has always troubled me about HAVA
The bill passed 98-2 in the Senate- so why did both NY senators,
Schumer and Clinton vote AGAINST it. Anyone have theories or knowledge on this?
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. Election theft must be *prevented,* not prosecuted after it happens.
As the saying goes, 'possession is 9/10 of the law;' so it goes with elections. Once the 'winner' has been declared, it is almost impossible to reverse the result, due to a number of factors.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. That's a good point
Kind of depressing, but good. All the more reason to PREVENT it in 2006!! All our efforts should be geared towards this!
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Philly Buster Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Prosecution might deter future fraud
Right now it's rarely prosecuted so there is no reason to fear getting caught
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. Yes
I think we should make prosecution of 2004 election fraud and paper trails our number one issue!
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. we lost the House majority rule, too
how we lost, we'll never know, now. They keep wiping out the data on the machines before we can investigate.

you know, there never was a liberal media, cept maybe some independent journalists.
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Riding this Donkey Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Republican SoS Both Times plus more N/T
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mousie Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Diebold, for one...
I'm new to politics and don't know as much as you all do... but WHY did we allow those machines to be used? My understanding is repubs insisted, but why did we let them get away with it even after what happened in 2000. Yes, I was afraid that something funny was going to happen with this election too... yet I thought Kerry, also fully aware and suspicious, was ready for it and watching everything carefully. I guess somehow I thought he could be super-human and not allow fraud to occur... naive, huh? I realize that now. We absolutely must INSIST on verifiable voting for the next election. Repub-owned voting machines WITHOUT paper trails and not verifiable??... NO WAY! Never should have happened, and maybe we were just a little too trusting in spite of our suspicions. And somehow we can't allow the planned shortage of machines and intimidation and all the other tricks that were pulled... the whole process will have to be watched MUCH more closely. Of course the media isn't our friend either....I don't know what we can do about that just yet... ??? The good thing is (I think) that after this horrible election, the repubs just AREN'T going to get away with it again!! No more Blackwells either!
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. It sounds like you know enough!
:) Belated welcome to DU!
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mousie Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thank you! :))
Glad I found this place... it's given me so much information that I wouldn't have found otherwise!!
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Is It Fascism Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
22. other, all of the above, plus a conspiracy, the dems threw the fight, n/t
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
23. other: You can't win a rigged game. n/t
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dzika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
25. Other; leadership in both parties...
have known and participated in election fraud for years. They will continued to do so until the people confront this issue. We must lead, not follow.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. You are 100% correct but this is a MAMMOTH task.
But ironically it is the business as usual response to OHIO that may prove even the covert operators undoing. The only antidote is sunlight which is why the internet and AAR and hopefully a liberal TV network will finally expose the truth.
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Philly Buster Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. The task is Mammoth
but both grassroots republicans and democrats want it.

<p>It's the professional politicians and political operatives who are nervous about it.
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noclonyofthechimp Donating Member (656 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
31. All OF THE ABOVE
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
32. All the above, but
Asleep? Yes, some. However, there were several Congressmen who tried to get new laws passed but the repugs never let there be a fair hearing.

Those attempted reforms did focus on the right areas but were never sufficient to keep selection 2004 from going down as designed.

Underestimated dishonesty is an historic failing of Democrats. We all seem to picture any politician as being more righteous than they really are.

And the media plays into that failing by deifying some politicos. Along with that worshipful pandering is the mix of money into the ultimate display the media feeds the sheeple. A free press is no longer free, it is bought and paid for. I like to label MSM this way:

M$M
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Siyahamba Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
33. Apathy.
I hate to say it, but I think the cause is apathy. Look at the massive popular outcry in Ukraine, then look at the dismal turnout we had at rallies here.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. yes. apathy
and denial.
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El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. Republican GOVERNERS in swing states. That's all it takes.
The governers appoint the secretaries of fraud, er, I mean, state. So we have Blackwell, Katherine Harris, and Glenda Hood in place to control the elections and do the dirty deeds.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
36. We cant blame the media. They did not stop DEMS from speaking up.
We need to stop blaming the media for our failure to speak up & be unified on a message.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Sometimes I wonder what it will take to make our
Party speak with a unified voice, and will it be something so catastrophic that it will be too late?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. We WERE Unified Behind Kerry
We raised more money for him than any Democrat in history.
We got him more votes than any Democrat in a long time.
We canvassed. We made phone calls.
Yet we "lost".

Kerry had a clear, progressive message on the economy, jobs,
and civil liberties, and we were united behind it.
But did we see any of that on TV? NO!
We saw the Swift Boat liars' ads being re-run over and over for free as "news".


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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
39. Mussolini knows
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."

In fact the Italians had a more descriptive term: corporativo estato, the corporate state.

I published an article called "It's the Corporate State, Stupid" back in November. It has made the rounds on the net.

I just did a search an found that it has been discussed on dailykos this month.

You can find the dailykos discussion here with a link to the article:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/4/132449/4105
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
40. A combination of ALL OF THE ABOVE!
This past election was a fiasco of major proportions. Everyone was so worried they forgot to pay attention!
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
43. Apparently, the Kerry camp dropped the ball..read in..you decide
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 09:26 PM by tommcintyre
In the first few days after the 11/2 theft, I quickly assembled an Election Fraud Resource Center on my website. I didn't have time to read most of the articles, but of course I read the titles and summaries (where available). One article has continued to "haunt" (bother) me. <From the following page.>
http://www.independentmediasource.com/evotingfraud_articles_older.htm

Jul 26 '04 Effort Afoot to Address E-voting At Convention by Dan Verton, A Democratic congresswoman from President George W. Bush's home state plans to put the issue of electronic voting security and integrity in the spotlight at this week's Democratic National Convention.… <As it appears on the above page.>

What continued to bother me was the "whys". Why would the Dem party allow the "obvious" to happen? Why would they allow all of us to pour so much effort (and money) into what they HAD to know was very likely to be a futile effort no matter how many people actually voted for Kerry (since they certainly should've assumed the "fix" would be in)? Knowing what they HAD to know, why didn't they use the DNC convention - the one opportunity they had, when they fully had the country's attention - to "sound the alarm" to the general public? <If you doubt that they HAD to fully understand the gravity of the situation, read the headlines listed at the end of this post (from the same page); and that the GOP clearly stole Georgia in 2002, primarily using evoting - the state just went to 100% evoting prior to the election.>

<Some excerpts from the above article:>
"Although she isn't scheduled to speak at the convention, Texas Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson will call on prominent Democrats to help raise voter awareness about the challenges facing the security, reliability and integrity of electronic voting systems, a spokesman for her office said.

"I can't imagine it not being an issue at the convention. But if it's not, Rep. Johnson certainly plans to make it one," said John B. Townsend, a spokesman for the congresswoman."

<Here's where the Kerry camp most likely blew it:>
"However, speaking on condition of anonymity, an IT industry source who met last week with members of Sen. John Kerry's staff said the Kerry campaign is considering a move to pull back from the position taken by the Democratic National Committee and Howard Dean's Democracy for America organization. Dean and the DNC have endorsed the voter-verifiable paper ballot requirement for e-voting systems -- something that only the state of Nevada has planned for November. According to the official, the Kerry campaign is considering support for verification of the final vote tally through some form of encryption."

So what did the Kerry camp ultimately do? I don't know. But I do know I watched that DNC convention from gavel to gavel and no big deal was made of the potential for election fraud! And I also know that the Kerry camp was responsible for (in control of) the content (messages) at that convention.

Finally, if you're curious what motivated them to make such an inanely stupid decision, here's the reason given further down in the article: "We're worried about voters being scared off," said Tanya Clay, director of public policy at Washington-based People for the American Way. "It's one thing to push for security in all voting machines, but it's another thing to scare people into thinking it's useless for them to go and vote. We can't allow this issue to hijack the election."

Yep.. that statement is really there (go see for yourself, if you find it hard to believe - I don't blame you). Do I REALLY need to comment on the inane stupidity of that statement?

So all this leads me to speculate: Could all this be the REAL reason the Dem party is nearly lock-step in claiming "Bush really won"? Are they afraid that if we who supported them found out how badly they BLEW IT, we might be really really pissed at them? Pissed off enough to DEMAND new (competent) leadership, or we walk?

Like I said, you be the judge.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

As promised, here's the headlines from that same page that demonstrate how clearly the Dems should've known the peril this election was in:

JULY 21, 2004 Computer scientist defends security community stance on e-voting The computer science professor at the center of the controversy over electronic voting system security told members of Congress yesterday that policymakers made "a mistake" by not conferring with security experts about voting system technologies. And he said that using the systems in November without first fixing the security flaws would be "irresponsible."

Jul 19 '04 Opposition Grows to Paperless Voting Voters took to the streets in 19 states last week to protest paperless electronic voting machines. In the coast-to-coast “Computer Ate My Vote” rallies, citizens showed what activists say could become widespread dissent against nonverifiable ballots if this year’s presidential election becomes another close call.…

Jun 14 '04 BusinessWeek: ELECTION MACHINERY: WHY FLORIDA CAN HAPPEN AGAIN

May 11, 2004 HOW TO BEAT A FIXED ELECTION It's an old story: Satan picks up the phone and calls St. Peter to challenge Heaven to a baseball game. "Of course, we'll play," says Peter. "But have you forgotten? We have all the great baseball players." "That may be so," replied Satan, "but we have all the umpires!" John Kerry and his Democratic party face a similar problem: They may have the votes, but the other side has the machines that record and count the votes. How can the Democrats win? A win over the Bushevik regime is not impossible, but it will be difficult and it will require considerable persistence and initiative. Our Readers Respond Many good ideas here.

May 10 '04 50M Electronic Votes Could Be Insecure, Say Researchers by Dan Verton, WASHINGTON IT security researchers said they have uncovered significant vulnerabilities in the electronic voting systems that nearly 30% of all registered voters will use in this November's presidential election.…

March 29, 2004 HOW E-VOTING THREATENS DEMOCRACY A cutting edge article analyzing the dangers of e-voting.

March 5, 2004 Diebold's Political Machine

Dec 15 '03 Criticism of Electronic Voting Machines' Security Is Mounting by Elizabeth Heichler, IDGNews Service. As the presidential primary season approaches, a debate is raging about electronic voting -- and IT professionals and computer scientists are among the loudest critics....

August 28, 2003 The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

July 30, 2003 The Theft of Your Vote Is Just a Chip Away


Again, if you want to read more, go here:
http://www.independentmediasource.com/evotingfraud_articles_older.htm
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Thanks for all the info
Sobering indeed.
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. "We need to start ACTING now, before 2006. Is it too late?"
No... I don't think its too late yet. But, with the current "position" of the Dem leadership that Bush really won, they are de-energizing and alienating their activist base. If this continues, it will erode any chance THEY have of making a difference on this issue. There has been a trend since at least the Gore campaign to "underestimate" the intelligence of the Dem base, causing the Dem party to make apparently weak (stupid) decisions/statements. (This could be the origin of the "flip-flop" charge that apparently stuck so well during the 2004 campaign.)

Like I said, if they don't "own up" and show some backbone on this issue, we need to replace our allegiance to them. Even without definitive evidence (which is inherently not likely with Efraud), as time goes on, more and more of their base will realize the truth. Simply put, you can't stop the truth.

It will be permanently over by 2006, when 100% evoting is HAVA mandated. Think about it. As the producer of "Invisible Ballots" said in the interview listed below, "Once that happens <100% evoting>, no reform candidate will EVER be able to win."

So, either the Dem leadership needs to mend their ways NOW, or we need to find/form new leadership NOW. Time is running out.

---------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.independentmediasource.com/evotingfraud.htm
6-17-04 - Listen Online (52 minute interview) - INVISIBLE BALLOTS
Edward Griffin discusses electronic voting machines and how they will negatively affect our lives. (Source)
<G. Edward Griffin is the Executive Producer and host of the documentary, "Invisible Ballots". (watch preview online).>

---------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. Thanks for this thread senseandsensibility. It helped to clarify for me what needs to be done.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. No,
Thank YOU for your well reasoned and thoughtful response. We need to hear your sense of urgency from our leaders. We're not hearing it.
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