I write with caution, but I must write about the Dem Party.....

[peacetalksforall]

For most of us, the idea that co-citizens of our country would attempt to intimidate us, work towards controlling and silencing us, then steal from us has left us dizzy. For most of us, to find that we would have a military that was meant to defend us now being used for corporate greed-kill has stunned us.

Time will prove if Dem leaders are helping the right wing.

I don't think so, but.......

It may be time to think about separation - we talk here about how the Repub Party has reason to split their Party. Dems also need to think about separataing. This country needs at least five STRONG political groupings, at a minimum.

I refuse to believe that Dems are deficient and have to rethink their moral values, especially in light of any recognition that we should be a christian nation. This is totally polar from our heritage. Now, even our Dem leaders are suggesting that this be considered. Our own people are now suggesting that we have to change.

I protest. If I had a chance to join a new Party that retained all the good things about us - a long history of doing something about child-labor, restricted voting, civil rights, equal rights, building free roads, trial by jury, honest voting - a Constitution and A Bill of RIghts that are sufficient for the greater good of man when interpreted and defended CORRECTLY.

In other words, I think I may want to drop my support of Dems who are inordinately accomodating to the right wing, if it is possible for a stronger Dem Party to form. A right wing that mocks everything good about our country by breaking the law and by their desire to rewrite the Constitution has to be fought by stronger people.

I want to support a Preservist Party - a Party that will PRESERVE the Constitution and Bill of Rights and proceed forward to perfect the honorable structure it has provided little by little.

I'm rethinking my support for Dem leaders, including, possibly, the Clintons.

Only a few Dem leaders are standing up for our right to an honest vote. Too few have done anything about it in the last four years. Too many have been conciliatory to the right wing and their right wing media and the right wing infrastructure that has become hell bent on taking over the world. Too many Dem leaders are too conciliatory. How many years of 'working together' can we take when we keep getting robbed, raped, accused, and laughed at?

I believe a Preservist Party is in order - a Party that would preserve what has been good and worthwhile about our laws and our accomplishments and proceed from there to honor and allow each person to rise to their highest potential with integrity - within the law.

[Stew225]

1. When such media leaders as Al Franken , Micahel Moore, and

Amy Goodman seem to be wimping out, I don't know what to think any more.I am embarassed to be a registered Democrat, though. I will never support them again! Unless something dramatic is oing on that I don't know about. If it is, they sure are alienating a lot of their base in the process.

[Chili]

4. not so sure about Michael Moore...

...check his website: michaelmoore.com

[Coyote_Bandit]

2. One Of the Best Things That Could Happen to this Country

is if it had multitudes of political parties - at least five strong parties as you suggested. This would force more coalition building on a wider range of issues.

I suspect that are at least that many identifiable groups. But for some God unknown reason we - public, politicians, media, and academicians - seem resistant to label those groups.

Liberal dems, moderate dems, conservative dems, green party, liberal pukes, moderate pukes, conservative pukes, neocons, libertarians, constitutionalists, reformers, etc.

There are many shades of red and blue.

[peacetalksforall]

5. By Dem leaders, I mean the top ones - McAuliffe, Shrum, Clintons, Gore

I mean the paid ones and their top unpaid advisors and game callers.

I consider that the people you mention are independent volunteers and have worked exhaustingly against the takeover and will probably continue to work against the takeover, with or without salary or profits. I can't see M Moore or Amy Goodman stopping or even having played any role in helping the thieves. Maybe, they don't have a good enough handle on this theft, yet, to see what needs to happen, if indeed, they haven't done enough so far. We are in a stunned state. That's what happens when you are a victim of crime, be it a mugging or a break-in or worse. I hope I'm not hallucinating.

[peacetalksforall]

6. By Dem leaders, I also mean our representatives in Washington. I know

more about them than I do Shrum or McAuliffe...and to phrase it in a positive light - I approve of the Black Caucus and certain individuals.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. What is needed is strong leadership

by people who truly believe in the Democratic ideals. I agree that I am tired of supporting DINOs and wimps who seem to simply sigh and say "well, there's nothing we can do about it."

Today, I got an emailing from the DNC, asking what I had done in the election and what the Dems should do now. I let them know that we have to stand up for our principles. If they don't, there will be a lot of progressives leaving the party.

The problem is can we organize a group that will have the political clout to stop the stranglehold the Repugs have on things? Karl Rove has said that his dream is to lay the groundwork for Republican/conservative dominance of this nation for the next 50 years. His dream is on the way of coming true if we don't do something. Right now, I'm waiting to see if it will be the Democratic Party or someone else.

[Oak2004]

7. There are times when it is that the people must lead

This was so when the issue was slavery.

The Democrats of that day supported the institution of slavery. The other party, the Whigs, took a wishy-washy, fence-sitting position, trying neither to alienate the slaveholders nor condone slavery.

Needless to say, those who were opposed to the spread of slavery (including the smaller number, who wanted it abolished entirely) found that no one within the mainstream political spectrum represented them. And so a third party was born, of frustrated Whigs and marginalized Democrats and persons whose only political affiliation was the antislavery movement. Its candidate, a former one-term congressman from rural Illinois, won, with a little over a third of the popular vote, in a four way race for the presidency. The South would not accept a president from a party with a strong antislavery platform, and the Civil War followed.

Yet it wasn't the arguably treasonous Democratic Party that disappeared after the war. It was the the party that refused to take a strong stand, that tried to sit in a nonexistent middle spot between evil and progress, the Whigs, who disappeared, The Republican Party took its place as one of America's two major political parties.

This nation has not been this divided over as serious a set of issues since 1860. The dividing line drawn on the map in 2004 follows the same lines as the division of 1860, and the issues dividing us are the direct descendents of the issues that split this nation in two in 1860. It seems at times that the Democrats are trying to be the Whigs of 2004, muttering "unity" when unity means uniting with torture and oppression and death, "peace" when all the world looks upon America as an aggressive rogue nation, "patience" when patience seems only to lead to fascism consolidating its power, and rejecting the one peaceful legal means that might avert a crisis because it doesn't want to offend anyone.

When the dust settles, will there be a Democratic Party left?

[shelley806]

8. Interesting read, but for right now we need to concentrate on saving

democracy NOT pipe dreams about new parties. WE NEED TO PURSUE THIS ILLEGAL ELECTION. HOLD THOSE IN POWER ACCOUNTABLE FOR NOT PURSUING ELECTION FRAUD. HOLD THE MEDIA RESPONSIBLE FOR NOT COVERING IT. DEMAND A RECOUNT IN FLORIDA, OHIO, AND ALL OTHER SUSPICIOUS STATES. CONTACT SOROS, CONTACT ZOGBY...DO SOMETHING NOW ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW.

[Eloriel]

10. Exactly, thanks -- here's an easy way to start on that

VOTE FRAUD? Tell everyone you know -- details
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1337662

[peacetalksforall]

11. Yes, there is a now and there is smething to think about as well...

[creeksneakers2]

9. It would be better

if the people who are angry would build an organization rather than a party. A new party just splits the vote. An organization could be used to influence the whole. Dems who wimp out would have primary opponents. If the folks who are angry can't change the party, how are they going to change the country?

[genius]

12. WE need the numbers of the Dem Party

That's why I'm a Democrat. I've seen the betrayal. If you can find a way to get massive numbers of Dems to switch to another party, your plan will work.

[desertalien]

13. I agree but If the repugs plan is to divide

and conquer the country then they would love to see the Dems divided.
I fear the repugs trying to tantalize centrist into their party by saying the new Dems have become to left for them (again). I know that's nothing new but dividing the party makes it a more convincing argument. They would wave the carrot and promise to move more center to accommodate them and then they would be gobbled up by repug deception. We know they are the supreme liars. Look at what they did to get Reagan and Ah-nold elected.

[goodhue]

14. Unity is the word.

Separation gets us nowhere.

[peacetalksforall]

15. Unity led by whom and with what say?

Two parties with Dems structured the way they are now with centrist and leftist wafflings that haven't been united in fourteen years, at the minimum, possibly because of the centrist experiment?

I think it's relevant to talk about it, because until this afternoon, there wasn't much activity about the thefts except by individuals and some organizations - spontaneous ones, in fact.

(With the caveat of the news coming from the internet, with people in the affected states busy, and with no media speaking for us - who knows what's going on).

[desertalien]

16. Yes, this deserves a vigorous debate.

I think we need to find a way to keep our numbers from dwindling though. Perhaps in the near future. Things do seem to be in flux right now.