No Fraud Necessary (redo)

[George_S]

Why commit fraud when you can simply manipulate the machine locations?

After looking over the Florida map, it's possible they put the op-scan machines in the lower density populations so everyone there could vote.

The voter use per machine time is far less for the op-scan machines than it is for the touch screens. Op-scan voters sit in a booth to vote and do so without a machine.

For example, if each vote took 1 second of machine time for op-scan, and each touch screen vote took (at the least!) 1 minute of machine time, that would mean the op-scan machine could tally 60 times the voting power.

In other words, place the touch screen machines in the more populated areas to help discourage the voters.

You would have to have 60 times the machines per capita in the densely populated areas to equal the voting efficiency of op-scan machines. All you would need is about 1% of the touch screen voters to give up and not vote.

I've been wondering why the machines were distributed like they were, and that could explain it. All the machine companies had to do was sell the two machine types where they wanted them to be.

No fraud, nothing illegal, and a guaranteed win.

This brings up two questions:

1) Did the machine companies know what the odds are of a voter giving up in relation to waiting time? My guess is that they did a study or know of studies that define the odds. The greater the turn out, the better for them.

2) Did the machine companies have a strategy to put certain machines in certain counties? If so, how did they accomplish that? Offering legitimate appearing deals would be the first guess.

[ET Awful]

1. Intentionally manipulating the ability of people to vote IS FRAUD

Any attempt to dissuade people from voting or effect the outcome of the vote through any illegitimate means IS FRAUD.

[George_S]

4. True...

... but selling machines is not fraud. Well, wouldn't it be impossible to prove? We would have to prove they didn't sell enough machines to make up for the time difference in voting power.

For there to be equal voting power in op-scan and touch screen machine counties, the number of touch screen machines would have to equal the number of voting booths the op-scan voters used.

They could just say, "We thought there was enough."

[George_S]

2. Lobbyists?

Lobbyists pushed for the sale of the more expensive machines, and county commissions agreed to make the purchases, spending nearly $57 million combined in Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach.

http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=8096&fcategory_desc=E-Voting%20Machines%20/%20Vote%20Integrity

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Sandra Morttham, former Sec of State (FL) was the lobbyist

Sandra Mortham makes Katherine Harris look like Glenda the Good Witch. She was the lobbyist for the touch screen systems that Katherine Harris and Jeb strongly recommended to replace the old punch card systems.


http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=sandra+mortham&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D97d2b8857c5f16f9%26clickedItemRank%3D3%26userQuery%3Dsandra%2Bmortham%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.savethevote.com%252Fissues%252Fmorthamnow.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSSideBar%26ampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.savethevote.com%2Fissues%2Fmorthamnow.htm

Shortly after the 2000 election, Sandra Mortham worked as a lobbyist for Florida Counties. She worked closely with Kurt Browning, who was the head of the Supervisor of Elections Association, Florida. Together, against the recommendations of the Govenor's Voting Machine Task Force, they pushed as many Florida counties into purchasing computerized touch screen voting machines. Prior to this, she is the former Secretary of State for Florida.

Only months after Pasco Counties election supervisor pushed thru a no bid contract for ES&S voting machines, Kurt Browning, Pasco's SOE, recommended Sandra Mortham for Secretary of State to replace Katherine Harris. 2 months after that, the St. Petersburg Times revealed in an article that Sandra Mortham was making commissions on every ES&S voting machine sold in Florida. 2 months after that, Kurt Browning switched from Democrat to Republican after nearly 26 years being elected as a Democrat for elections supervisor.

For anyone who was wondering what such a trust worthy person as Sandra Mortham was doing, she is now working as a legislative lobbyist for the Florida Medical Association. I hope people understand who and what is at play here.

[George_S]

18. No wonder!

Still, why push the touch screens in those counties and not the others?

There is more too this.

Thanks for the info. That's a good catch.

Someone posted an article here about how long it takes to use a touch screen machine (I think, I might have run across it in a search). The article stated how there wouldn't be enough time given the average time it took to use it.

Anyone know the article? Seems it was a Florida news article.

[idiosyncratic]

3. It'll never happen, but I think election procedures should be

the same throughout the entire country.

Having things be different from precinct to precinct and county to county and State to State is just ridiculous.

We should vote the way they did in Afghanistan. Paper ballots counted by hand.

If its good enough for their emerging Democracy, it ought to be good enough for ours.

[George_S]

5. Twenty-one of Broward's 6,020 touch screen machines were removed

Final voting rush begins in Florida

By MARTIN MERZER, ERIKA BOLSTAD AND LUISA YANEZ
[e-mail]

No major balloting problems and, just as nice, no punch lines that mention Florida materialized today. Even firebrand filmmaker Michael Moore complimented the state for its electoral performance. So far.

But the next two phases remain -- accommodating this evening's final rush of voters and accurately counting the ballots.

Sweeping systemic malfunctions did not erupt in South Florida or elsewhere in the state, though sporadic glitches occurred. Some people complained about a paucity of machines in Miami-Dade County and some malfunctioning machines and confusion about proper voting sites in Broward County.

Twenty-one of Broward's 6,020 touch screen machines were removed from service in Broward because of various errors, officials said, and were replaced with new machines. Votes already cast on the flawed machines will be harvested, they said.

On the whole, though, Floridians eagerly, gratefully played their roles today in the electoral drama of 2004 and most reported tolerable lines and waiting times -- and a profound sense of purpose and responsibility.

''It's very exciting,'' said Janice Carey, 52, of Davie, dressed in red, white and blue. ``I think this is the most important election of my lifetime.''

Said Kelly Jimenez, 34, of Miami's Little Haiti neighborhood: ``I'm willing to wait no matter how long. Not everybody in the world has this privilege.''

Long lines formed in South Florida before the polls opened at 7 a.m. EST. Most of those lines diminished later in the day, but were expected to grow again as people leave work this evening.

''If you want to vote in this country, you gotta get in line,'' said Gene Raymond of Wilton Manors in Broward, who did just that -- wait in line and vote -- at Manor Pines Convalescent Center.

Experts noted that lines do not necessarily mean problems -- they often simply mean that many people want to vote. One exception: North Bay Village, where the combination of a long ballot and few machines left some people standing in midday heat for three hours.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:n1NLcr2FaXsJ:www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/10077724.htm%3Ftemplate%3DcontentModules/printstory.jsp+%22waiting+time%22+for+touch+screen+voting+study&hl=en&client=firefox-a

[targetpractice]

6. ding! ding! ding! We have a winner!

The state government decides where the machine go.

Put accurate and efficient machines in places where you WANT to count votes, and put error-prone and unproven machines where you DO NOT WANT to count the votes.

In Florida that means optical scan ballots in Republican leaning counties and punch-cards and touch screens in Democratic leaning counties.

No need to hack the vote to make things go your way.

[ZR2]

8. Wrong answer

In Florida, the County decides which form it wants to use. Not the state.

[never_get_over_it]

7. I don't really understand your theory

but it takes way longer to vote on opti-scan than it does on touch screen....they give you a ballot and you have to carefully fill in ALL those votes for all those races and amendments - only so many people can be filling out the ballots at a time - true to feed it through the machine takes a second, but to get to that point takes alot longer. I've voted on both and touch screen (although not touch screen in FL) but in my experience opti-scan takes MUCH longer - I waited in line for close to three hours for early voting in FL....just my opinion....

[George_S]

9. OK, I'll try another approach

Say an op-scan precinct has 1000 voters.

Say a touch screen precinct has 1000 voters.

Say they have 1000 minutes to vote in both precincts.

The time it would take in the op-scan precinct would depend on the numbers of booths. If they only had one booth, there would be a long line because everyone would have to wait for each voter to leave the booth. The machine is irrelevant because they simply hand the ballet over when done.

However, if they have 1000 booths, all the voters could vote at once and the line would only be a matter of how long it takes them to vote and hand in their ballet. Again, the machine is irrelevant.

In a touch screen precinct, the machine is like booth since it is like entering a booth to vote. Only one person can use it at a time. If there is only one machine in the precinct and it takes 2 minutes to cast each vote, 50% of the voters won't get to vote. A certain percentage would give up and not even try.

More realistically, say the op-scan precinct has 10 booths. Ten could vote at once and hand in their ballet. Say it takes one minute for each vote. They could all vote in 100 minutes.

The touch screen precinct would have to have 10 machines before all 1000 voters could vote in 100 minutes.

So if both the op-scan and touch screen counties have the same number of machines per capita, the op-scan counties have the advantage in a limited amount of time.

For it to be equal, the touch screen counties would have to have the same number of machines per capita as the booths available to voters per capita in the op-scan counties. If there aren't enough touch screen machines, some will either give up or not be able to vote.

[never_get_over_it]

10. All I'm saying is

It takes alot longer to fill out the opti-scan ballots - especially if you want to make sure that your vote is counted - I bet it took me 5 minutes to make sure that my little bubbles were filled in completely and accurately. I bet at least 3 touch screen voters or more could have voted in the time it took me to fill out my ballot - and I knew exactly who I was voting for.

[George_S]

12. I've never used the touch screen

So don't know. Maybe they could have half the touch screens as they would need for booths if using op-scan. If so, why were so many lines so long for touch screens?

Google

touch screen voting "long line"

And you'll get mucho hits.

[AndyTiedye]

16. Many People Can Fill Out Ballots At Once

Our polling place only had one optical-scan machine, but it had
half a dozen of those cardboard booths where voters fill out
ballots. Those things are cheap. Only one touch-screen machine
would have made for a long line.

[Atman]

13. In the CT precinct I worked, mechanical machines...

...handled 1.3 voters PER MINUTE. We had lines out the door, but it rarely took more than 15 minutes to make it to the machine.

I used to be able to draw and color a cartoon in a few hours. Since computers entered the picture, it still takes me no time to do the actual drawing, but about 8 hours to color one.

WTF? Who thought computers were a solution to this "problem?"

[savistocate]

14. But the discrepencies between rgstrd Democrats

& actual votes in enough FL counties was with op-scan surprisingly. Knowing they'd be under less watch less suspicion. Link of chart on another thread .

The time difference you observe cld be in play also.

[George_S]

17. True

But one of the Reps favorite tactics is to squash the liberal vote. The more that get tired of waiting and refuse to vote, the better for them.

I don't know enough about the Florida election process to know if there is anything to this or not.

But the way the machines are dispersed in Florida has always bugged me. There is nothing random about it, that's for sure. It looks planned.

[noiretextatique]

15. this makes sense to me

especailly considering the stories i've heard about the long waits in heavily minority precints. we need a uniform voting system.