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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 08:50 AM
Original message
Alternate Reality
Alternate Reality

Ask yourself if Kerry had won the election while Bush led the national exit polls by 3%...

Ask yourself if Kerry had somehow pulled out miraculous wins in most of the battleground states while trailing in the exit polls...

Ask yourself if Ken Blackwell were Ohio's Democratic Secretary of State while heading the Kerry campaign and distributed only a few, malfunctioning voting machines to White Republican precincts while glutting minority Democratic precincts with machines, then locked out observers from witnessing the election count, then stalled and obstructed recount efforts at every turn...

Ask yourself if voter registration drives funded by the Democratic National Committee targeted evangelical churches who then found applications of registered Republicans had been torn up and thrown in the garbage...

Ask yourself if newly registered Republican Catholics received mysterious out-of-state phone calls pretending to be Planned Parenthood to remind them to vote for Bush because he paid for his girlfriend's abortion in college...

Ask yourself if Kerry's brother were Governor of Florida and sent out "caging lists" to prevent suspected white collar criminals or anyone with a name similar to a white collar criminal, televangelist, or military lobbyist from voting...

Ask yourself if African Americans and Hispanics were in charge of rural white precincts, took pictures of White voters as they entered, forced them to pass by the table of an African American Democratic challenger and show him ID before reaching the poll workers, and then forced the White voters to fill out provisional ballots because they were on the Black guy's list...

Ask yourself if thousands upon thousands of votes went missing from electronic voting machines in White suburban Republican precincts though few if any went missing from Democratic minority precincts...

Ask yourself if the major voting companies were owned by leading Democrats or had close Democratic ties and provided no paper trail or way to audit the integrity of the election or a way to independently validate the source code of the electronic voting machines...

Ask yourself if a company staffed entirely by former members of the Congressional Black Caucus were the sole company awarded the contract to test and verify the paperless, unauditable electronic voting machines were accurate...

Ask yourself if the Democratic, African American president of one of the electronic voting companies publicly promised to deliver the deciding state in the electoral college to Kerry and then saw that state slip into his column even though Bush had a substantial lead in the exit polls...

...


What do you suppose would be happening now? What would Rush be screeching? What would O'Reilly and Hannity be spewing? What stories would the mainstream media be running? What kind of investigations would the Justice Department be initiating? What kind of demands and probes and allegations would Republican Senators be exploiting? What would the courts be ruling? What kind of protests would be visiting the Capitol and even minority neighborhoods? Would there have been an inauguration?
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wow
I can't even think like that, man.

Makes my head hurt.

Yep, your post clearly illustrates we are like the slow
boiled frogs.

Drip, drip, drip, drip...

The pugs better hope nobody comes in and turns up
the heat real fast... even by accident.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. well said...
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent framing, I'm gonna try that out to a few nonbelievers!
Very nice, very nice ... I hadn't turned it around in the light enough to catch the refractions from that angle. That is sure to make some people back up & think @ it in a whole new way!
Good for you, keep going!
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. You forgot
Ask yourself if the republicans in congress introduced a bill requiring verifiable paper audit trails for DRE machines, and the democrats didn't even allow it to be voted on....
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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
5. We should also ask Repubs this question . Thanks for the post. n/t
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. Wow! We've got a LETTER OF THE WEEK forum going, and were...
...going to do election fraud, investigation and reform next, after C.Rice and Gonzales nominations--letters blasted to Congress and the media, to keep our "talking points" out there--and it strikes me that your statement here could be used for the letter.

what do you think?

I'll work on editing it for the purpose and post it at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=293412&mesg_id=293412

the forum we're using to develop ideas--in the next day or so.

...the illusion, the delusion, the frogs slowly boiling to death...all right on.
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'm Cool With It
Feel free to use all or any part that would assist the cause.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Some puzzles... and a suggestion...
Edited on Fri Jan-21-05 10:18 AM by Peace Patriot
"Ask yourself if newly registered Republican Catholics received mysterious out-of-state phone calls pretending to be Planned Parenthood to remind them to vote for Bush because he paid for his girlfriend's abortion in college..."

"Ask yourself if Kerry's brother were Governor of Florida and sent out "caging lists" to prevent suspected white collar criminals or anyone with a name similar to a white collar criminal, televangelist, or military lobbyist from voting..."

just to clarify...

BushCons called newly reg'ed DEM Catholics, saying they were PP and they should vote for KERRY cuz of college abortion?

(I hadn't heard that one...)

quote #2: what do the televangelist and military lobbyist have to do with the cage list (and is cage list same as purge list?). question: the black voters were not suspected felons but had served time for felony in the past, right? were clean now, had their no right to vote expunged, and were eligible? (they and any similar names were purged?...). or, were they looking for out of prison felons who were not yet eligible to vote, to purge them, and then purged them and all similar names? (I just want the analogy to be right.)

----

an item to add to the list?

something about analysis of the exit polls by leading Phds all over the country showing impossible odds for a skew in the official results that favored Kerry most noticeably in the battleground states he had to win...??

and, paper vs. electronic, and top of the ticket vs. lower ticket, etc., weird or impossible results...
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. P.S. for instance...
Edited on Fri Jan-21-05 10:22 AM by Peace Patriot
what if a leading unversity statistical team had concluded, based on paper vs. electronic totals, that there had been 130,000 to 300,000 phantom votes for Kerry (or votes stolen from Bush) in Florida's three leading Republican counties?

also

what if touchscreen voting machines, manufactured and controlled by Kerry partisans, had changed Bush votes to Kerry votes all day long in many precincts?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. how's this for wording?
Ask yourself, what if analysis of the official results vs. the exit polls, by highly respected experts at leading universites, had shown in impossible discrepancy between the two results—one that skewed to Kerry most noticeably in the battle ground states that he needed to win, and issued reports that this descrepancy has astronomical odds against it and could not have resulted from innocent error?

Ask youself, what if statistical experts at another leading university had then concluded, based on paper vs. electronic totals, that there had been 130,000 to 300,000 phantom votes for Kerry (or votes stolen from Bush) in Florida's three leading Republican counties?

Ask yourself, what if touchscreen voting machines, manufactured and controlled by Kerry partisans, had changed Bush votes to Kerry votes all day long in many precincts?
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. One again...
... I am amazed at your speed with the typed word Peace Patriot.

Keep it up! =)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Old nun in high school, typing teacher, used to whack...
...my fingers with a ruler and make me sit up straight. But I think she meant well. Typing = FREEDOM & SECURITY, for women in those days. If you could type, you could "always get a job."

(I don't think young women these days can comprehend what it was like to live in a world in which typing was one of two or three jobs open to women.) (typing/secretary, salesgirl, nurse or teacher if you could afford the training--that was about it, truly. So the nun, who had seen quite a bit of the world before she became a nun--had been married, I recall--kind of rare--saw it as our only way out of poverty and dependence, and may have had a bit of frustration she was working out, as well. Anyway, I learned to type--fast!--with fingers on all the right keys. But I don't sit up straight now.)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. ...learned on a manual typewriter, big old black Underwood! n/t
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Armed only with a typewriter...
Hey now! That's interesting Peace Patriot. =)

I too took typing in Junior High School in the mid-late '70s.
I learned on an IBM Selectric... 1974 model... with the extra
font balls. (PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT ROVE!)

I took a lot of grief for it from the other guys. (as I am a guy)
HAH! I bet those schmoes didn't see computers coming! DID THEY!
Who's laughing now you guys! (HINT: me!)

My Mom encouraged me to do it for very much the same reasons as
you. She was a secretary for over 20 years and it was bread and
butter, baby. BREAD AND BUTTER! =)

It was a good decision to say the least.

But, the additional skill you possess Peace Patriot is the ability
to compose and type. Not everyone has that. =)

Keep it up! =)


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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
43. I hear you, Peace Patriot
My one year of high school typing has kept food on my table for 40 years. My college degree didn't get me squat.
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Wording
"Ask yourself, if touchscreen voting machines, manufactured and controlled by Kerry partisans, had changed Bush votes to Kerry votes all day long in many precincts?"

It's fine or perhaps...

"Ask yourself if touchscreen voting machines manufactured and programmed by Democratic voting machine companies defaulted to Kerry or repeatedly switched votes to Kerry throughout election day in Republican precincts..."

Note that it's structured in incomplete sentences... with the "what" completed at the bottom.

My preference would be to keep the inferences personal rather than using "experts concluded." It gives more of an emotional jolt. If you are composing a letter, however, it would be cool to label the top "alternate reality" and the bottom "reality" with bulleted talking points such as the expert conclusions.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I tend to agree with you, ignatzmouse...
I tried it out with the experts in the "what ifs" and it did start sounding a bit dry and academic.

I think, if it's done, the key will be to make the "what if" point very brief, and not use too many of them.

I felt, reading your piece, that you were holding back on some of your best amunition. (But that's me--I favor the dry, expert stuff.)

I'll try it your way--separating alternative and reality. (I think a two-page letter is unavoidable on this issue--but I WILL try to do it in one page.)

What do you think of me including a footnote (small type--out of the way) stating something like this: "The alternative election scenario was developed by DU blogger ignatzmouse"?

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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Footnotes
You're right. Concise and quickly read is best. An attribution is not necessary for a letter, but thanks for thinking of it. :)
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Planned Parenthood & Caging Memos
The infamous "caging list" memo was sent to georgebush.org from the RNC by mistake -- do I have that right? It presented lists of Black voters for Republican challengers to challenge/cage at the polls as I understand it. Someone could elaborate. The metaphors were irony but feel free to edit it as necessary if you're using it to highlight points in a letter.

At the old Kerry-Edwards forum someone in Ohio early on November 2nd posted that their mother was a journalist and had just called up Ken Blackwell's for a quote. While she was placed on hold, she could hear Blackwell's staff phone canvassing, frantically calling voters, telling them they were calling on behalf of Planned Parenthood and be sure to vote for Kerry in order to keep abortion legal. My guess is that it was a push-poll type technique in which they were calling abortion-sensitive Catholic voters in order to ensure a Bush vote. When the person came back on the line, the journalist asked if she had contacted Blackwell's office because the plethora of "Planned Parenthood" callers in the background puzzled her. She was assured that it was Blackwell's office. I don't know if the old forums are still archived, but the information would be there.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. This is going to Senators and the media. Can we use it...
...the Planned Parenthood thing? (Not that a whole lot of them are into facts, really...)(except as it serves their warmongering purposes...)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. what do the televangelist and military lobbyist have to do with...
...the cage list?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. nevermind, I just "got" it...
...I was reading the sentence the wrong way. (I'll re-read to see if it's me or the sentence.)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. revision...
"Ask yourself, if Kerry's brother had been Governor of Florida and had sent out "caging lists" to prevent suspected white collar criminals or anyone with a name similar to a white collar criminal, televangelist, or military lobbyist from voting..."

Ask yourself, if Kerry's brother had been Governor of Florida and had sent out "caging lists" to prevent voting by suspected white collar criminals, or anyone with a name similar to a white collar criminal, or any televangelist or military lobbyist ...

??
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Reads better
It reads better. As you're planning an outgoing letter, you may omit the televangelist and military lobbyist as I think the intended irony would get lost. Perhaps...

Ask yourself, if the Deomcratic National Committee had issued "caging lists" to African American operatives in the state where Kerry's brother was Governor to intercept and prevent voting by suspected white collar criminals, family members of white collar criminals, or anyone with a name similar to a white collar criminal...
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. No they pretended to be calling from Planned Parenthood because they
wanted to paint Kerry as being Pro abortion. Just another one of their dirty tricks.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
45. ask yourself if
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 11:30 PM by KaliTracy
ask youself if Ohio had a Democrat as Secretary of State since 1998, and it was brought to light that over 900 precincts mostly in Republican areas were lost between 1998 and the 2000 election.

And then, in 2003-2004 another 700 precincts were lost mostly in Republican areas because of the excuse of going to e-machines and " previous low voter turnout" even though since 1980 there had been over a 70% voter turnout. Until 2000, when it was 63%. And ask yourself if those lines in Republican areas were just accidents and mishandling and ineptness of Democrat BOEs. Or if it was planned. And if the 63% voter turnout in 2000 was apathy on the part of Republican voters, or if they saw long lines, and couldn't stay to vote.

Ask yourself why Ohio was in the media weeks before the election to have "long lines" on election day, and that indeed, when Republican districts voted, they waited over 5 hours, while those in mainly Democrat areas had the proper number (or more) machines, and never waited more than 20minutes.
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
36. I would love to see this as a letter of the week! that would be
great!
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. Just imagine
If the Republicans were the one's who had been hacked, cheated and denied, they'd be raising hell. Ya gotta hand it to 'em, they don't take crap we like dems do.

Maybe, in the long run, say in the next world, we dems will be rewarded for being so peaceful and docile. 'Blessed be the peacemakers', and all that.

But gawd damnit, we are living in this world, and the more we let the pukes get their way the sooner we can expect the end of it. I, for one, can only live in one world at a time, and don't need no stinking 'End Timers' messing this one up.



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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. I'd be real bumed--just like I feel bumed that
a DEm President won by last minute votes from a large city, controlled by a Dem Mayor- who held results back and then late in the game came up with just enough votes to put his man in the White HOuse.
Mayor Daley and JFK-1960.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. 45 years ago, mate!
And the Forces of Darkness found another way to deal with it.
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Bum fumes?
I take "bumed" to mean "bum + fumed"?

It has been noted that in the 1960 election there was as much if not more alleged irregularities on the Republican side. Beyond that, if your argument for perpetrating fraud is that fraud has existed in the past, I don't think you have much of a moral argument. Please re-read O'Reilly's children's book and try again.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. Rough draft of LETTER OF THE WEEK #3: Election Fraud
(FIRST DRAFT of sample letter to be offered to DUers for mailing to members of Congress and the media. I think it's two long. It goes over 2 pages. Also, I'm considering eliminating the phrase "Ask yourself" from each of the items in the first section. That phrase may not be necessary. COMMENTS WELCOME.)


The members of the DemocraticUnderground.com 2004 Election Forum support rigorous investigation of the 2004 election, including careful and detailed investigation of all electronic voting equipment and programming and electronic voting results, and all vote suppression incidents and difficulties in voting, including potential violations of the Voting Rights Act and other laws.

The following alternative scenario of the 2004 presidential election was developed by a blogger at the DemocraticUndergound.com web site. We thought it was a good introduction to the subject, so we ask you to reflect for a moment or two, and…

Ask yourself if Kerry had won the election while Bush had won the national exit polls by 3%...

Ask yourself if Kerry had pulled out miraculous wins in most of the battleground states while trailing in the exit polls...

Ask yourself if touchscreen voting machines manufactured and programmed by Democratic voting machine companies defaulted to Kerry or repeatedly switched votes to Kerry throughout election day in Republican precincts...…

Ask yourself if Ken Blackwell had been Ohio's Democratic Secretary of State at the same time that he was heading the Kerry campaign and had distributed only a few, malfunctioning voting machines to White Republican precincts, so that White Republicans had to stand out in the rain for ten hours to vote, while he had glutted minority Democratic precincts with as many machines as they needed, then had locked out observers from witnessing the election count, then had stalled and obstructed recount efforts at every turn...

Ask yourself if voter registration drives funded by the Democratic National Committee had targeted, say, evangelical churches who had then found that the voter applications of registered Republicans had been torn up and thrown in the garbage...

Ask yourself if newly registered Republican Catholics had received mysterious phone calls from out-of-state with the caller supposedly speaking for Planned Parenthood and reminding the target to vote for Bush because he paid for his girlfriend's abortion in college...

Ask yourself if Kerry's brother had been Governor of Florida and had sent out "caging lists" to prevent voting by suspected white collar criminals, or anyone with a name similar to a white collar criminal, or any televangelist or military lobbyist ...

Ask yourself if African Americans and Hispanics had been in charge of rural white precincts, had taken pictures of White voters as they entered, had forced them to pass by the table of an African American Democratic challenger and show him ID before reaching the poll workers, and then had forced the White voters to fill out provisional ballots because they were on the Black guy's list...

Ask yourself if thousands upon thousands of votes had gone missing from electronic voting machines in White suburban Republican precincts though few if any had gone missing from Democratic minority precincts...

Ask yourself if the major voting machine companies had been owned by leading Democrats or people who had close Democratic ties and had provided no paper trail or way to audit the integrity of the election or a way to independently validate the source code of the electronic voting machines...

Ask yourself if a company staffed entirely by former members of the Congressional Black Caucus had been the sole company awarded the contract to test and verify whether the paperless, unauditable electronic voting machines were accurate...

Ask yourself if the Democratic, African American president of one of the electronic voting companies had publicly promised to deliver the deciding state in the electoral college to Kerry and then that state had slipped into Kerry's column even though Bush had a substantial lead in the exit polls...

Ask yourself, if all of the above things had happened that way, then…

…what do you suppose would have been happening in the months after that election? What fulminations would have been spewing from the mouths of Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Hannity? What stories of the shocking Democratic vote stealing scandal would have been running 24/7 in the mainstream media? What kind of investigations would the Justice Department have been initiating? What kind of demands and probes and allegations would Republican Senators have been exploiting? What would the courts have been ruling? What kind of protests would have been visiting the Capitol and its minority neighborhoods? And, ask yourself, would there have been an inauguration?


If these things had in fact occurred in this way—with the Democrats and the Kerry supporters massively suppressing Republican voters, and selecting them out of the voting process on the basis of race, income and party, and inflicting Republican precincts with inferior voting equipment and then disqualifying their votes on that basis, and shorting them on voting machines causing ten hour lines, and controlling the election process with secret, proprietary source code, and preventing a paper trail and auditablity in the voting process, and had, in addition, played all kinds of dirty tricks on the Republicans…

…you can be sure that the Bush regime and all advocates would be screaming bloody murder.

Well, please consider this a scream of bloody murder! And with this scream, we turn from the alternative election scenario to reality.

The members of the DemocraticUnderground who participate in 2004 Election Results and Discussion Forum are extremely concerned about the validity of the 2004 presidential election, due to:

1) highly insecure, unreliable and hackable electronic voting machines and central vote tabulators;

2) partisan Republican ownership of secret, proprietary source code that tabulates all the votes;

3) no paper trail in a third of the country, after special efforts by Republicans in Congress to prevent this and other election verification measures;

4) highly suspicious results in the official tabulation, indicated first of all by Kerry winning in the exit polls that were conducted on election day, and also indicted by studies from several different leading statistical experts, on measurements such as exit polls vs. official tabulation, and paper vs. electronic voting, showing large magnitude numerical anomalies always favoring Bush, and astronomical odds against such a skew in the results;

5) touchscreen voting machines consistently changing Kerry votes to Bush votes in many precincts;

6) a phony Homeland Security alert that resulted in the removal of observers from the vote counting in a key election state (Ohio) ;

7) massive vote suppression against minority voters in Ohio, Florida, New Mexico and other places, possibly resulting in the loss of as many as 3 million votes, in blatant violation of the Voting Rights Act of 1965;

8) an invalid recount in Ohio that was interfered with by the Republican Secretary of State; and

9) added to all this, an intense campaign of dirty tricks against minority voters, such as calling people who had been in prison, but were now eligible to vote, and warning them that they would go back to prison if they showed up at the polling place.


We believe that, in any other America than this one--run as it is by the Bush regime--there would never have been unauditable electronic voting in the first place, but had it snneaked through the legislative process in some innocent way, and had it been revealed, post-election, that there was a large exit poll discrepancy and many other anomalies, the party in power, Republican or Democrat, would have initiated serious investigations and pursued prosecution of any wrongdoers, if, for no other reason, that to clear its name and remove the clouds of suspicion and illegitimacy—that is, if such a ruling party truly believed in its own innocence, and had nothing to hide. What would be the harm in investigating and clearing the matter up?

But in this case, in addition to anomalous and highly suspicious election results, we have something so shameful and disreputable that there can be no clearing of the air, and that is the behavior of Republican election officials in Ohio and Florida in particular, against African-American and other minority voters. This behavior cannot be covered up or excused. It was experienced by human beings—not by some machine with electrons whirling around in it pretending to be votes. Real people suffered ten hour voting lines and impossible requirements for registration, and having their votes disqualified. Real witnesses—who don't need a paper trail, because they have eyes and ears and feelings, and can speak out.

So there is the hidden election fraud, which might go away if it is not looked at too closely, and the open, bigoted, mean-spirited, personal election fraud, experienced by people who can testify to it.

We have no reason to expect that the Republican Party will deal with this matter honestly. Their moral value seems to be, "if it benefits us, than it's perfectly okay." That's why we asked you to imagine, what if it had been the other way around?

But we can hope that they will join with the Democrats in Congress in a rigorous and honest investigation, and that, if it turns out that they have won the White House illegitimately, they will relinquish it, or arrange for a re-vote.

Let us all try to imagine the alternative reality of an honest America, with an honest government, in which that could happen.
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Excellent start
I like it. Well written and argued.

A couple of preferences...

I would simply head it "Alternate Reality" and jump right into the "ask yourself's." It would provide more of an impact and keep someone reading. Remember, the people receiving the letter continue to be inundated with protest letters, are busy, and have blinders on. Unless they are hooked, they'll stop reading after the first couple of sentences.

I like including "Ask yourself" at the beginning of each scenario -- perhaps even in italics. It's an ordering drumbeat that forces the perspective.

Following the scenarios, I would center/bold "Reality," include your first paragraph, and go from there.

I think also that "alternate reality" is how the phrase is usually spoken/written rather than "alternative reality," but I may be wrong. A Sci-Fi fan might illuminate us.
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sorechasm Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. I agree with ignatzmouse. Great argument...perhaps this is three letters
I like the "Ask yourself..." as a hook.

We might consider this to be two or three shorter letters like the MSM Inaugural Coverage letters, one page each. There's strength in variety.

The first one would be a teaser, highlighting about half of the scenarios of "Ask yourself..." ending with the paragraph that starts: "...what do you suppose..." and ends with "...would there have been an inauguration?"


The second one provides a little more detail, and the remaining scenarios.
If your tired of the 'Ask yourself...' in this one change to "What if..." These end with the "...you can be sure...bloody murder."
The 9 points of the second letter could be shortened to one full sentence. "...insecure electronic voting machines, proprietary source code, no paper trail, exit poll anomalies, touchscreen machines changing voters vote, suspicious Homeland Security alert, voter suppression, invalid recount, and voter suppression."

The third and final letter provides all the details and what we need to do to solve this issue.

All three letters should end with the same conclusion: "Let us all try to imagine the...honest America...honest government..."

Also, as much as I love DU, we might want to put that credit in the body of the letter and not at the top. If we are trying to reach all (any) conscientious politicians, we'd better have them hooked into the problem before we allow the reader to prejudge the source.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. good suggestion...
there is so much meat here--it could well be broken down into three letters for greater effect. When you send over a page at any one time, the reader gets bogged down. Yes, make them three discreet pages/sections. Then you can either send one at a time or send all 3 pages at once, depending on the purpose, but at least they'd be in manageable bites.

I'm not discouraging feeding them a LOT of info, just saying, make it easy to digest and don't run it all together.

When I first read ignatzmouse post, I thought--is this out anywhere? And there's peace patriot on the job. When it's in final form, we can help send it out.
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Street Corner Logic
All cogent points. Two or three concise letters may be best. It is definitely important to organize and present the information in unavoidable lasting bytes. Sending out an unsolicited appeal is like standing on a busy sidewalk trying to hand out flyers. The people in the crowd have their own agendas and busy lives. They can see the guy with the flyers coming and do everything they can to swerve around him and not make eye contact. If we stay away from involved arguments which are heard both as begging and as diatribes and instead utilize little packets of logic, it has a chance to stop them in their tracks and get them to think. The structure is as important as the content when people are running obstacle courses to get away from hearing you.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
46. Should you include the weed's approval rating
Ask yourself if Kerry had a 52% approval rating on his inaugration day would the GOP be questioning whether or not he actually won by 59%.

Don't forgot that the weed's approval rating today supports the facts. John Kerry won.
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consciousobjector Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
31. The answer to the question is
They would be doing something that would greatly resemble what's happening in Washington state right now...
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we can do it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
32. This would be a powerful letter to editor IMO.
Would you mind if we used your post to spread the message? It is so well said that it could open a few more eyes.
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Yes
Feel free to use it in whole or in part.
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. or an op ed piece, which I think can be longer n/t
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
35. this is excellent and I hope you send it to
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
38. I got this thread from a link on
another thread and I am really grateful! Thank you for this well done analysis!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=299780#299811
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
41. what your great piece leads us to ask ourselves, as well
(and pardon me if someone has said this already, I don't have time to read all the replies)

Is if all those things were true, what would I be doing about it? Would i be speaking out? Would I be disgusted? Would i be changing my registration to Green?

I think these are important questions to ask ourselves when we say, "This isn't about Kerry, it's about fair elections."

And I think, honestly, that my answers to those questions would be that yes, I'd be disgusted, and yes, I'd probably be changing my registration to Green, but I wonder if I really would have dropped everything in my life to work on it the way I have now? And that I'm not entirely sure about that troubles me some.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. Oh, man, just when I was starting to get over it
NOT!!
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
44. Do I have your permission
to send this as a letter to the editor?
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. You are welcome to use it (n/t)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. ignatzmouse, just to let you know, I'm taking a break from...
...ConDo Rice letter send outs, to work on this 3-parter that people have suggested. I wanted us to have something for the Sensenbrenner campaign.

But maybe we should just do a simple letter (like the ConDo letter), one page, very simple, just pushing investigation, as a sample letter for folks to use...

...and work on this more complex thing for a day or two--as the coup de grace!

??

Note: In LETTER OF THE WEEK #2: ConDo - I posted ALL the Dem Senators' tel, fax, & email, and many state offices. And Repug DC tel, fax & email. And in the Conyers-Sensenbrenner threads, I posted fax nos. for Sensenbrenner (and will post committee member contacts when I can).

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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #49
55. That's cool...
Thank you for your diligent work. I do think a short shock to the conscience is most effective. In the long version, it may work well to do Alternate Reality > Reality > References. "Reality" would state the actual events that were used to create the alternate reality, and "References" could be used like footnotes to document the evidence including the analytical reports. A "references" section or something similar would give some meat to anyone (say media?) who were affected enough to explore the issues further. Just a suggestion. Let me know if it makes sense.
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
47. BRAVO!!!
:D
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
50. This is the BEST letter on DU....we should send it to all newspapers
magazines, blogs, and the foreign press.....and of course, every Senator and Congresscritter.

Let's keep this kicked!

:kick::kick::kick::kick:
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Yeah, we're going to send it out, BLAST it with our new tools...
...probably as a two or three parter. It's going to be LETTER OF THE WEEK #3. It's more complex than the other letters so far, so may take a few days to edit and do the second bulleted section. I still think the problem is integrating some of the more esoteric analysis--esoteric but very powerful. There are 5 or 6 reports by PhDs, top statisticians, blasing the election.

But we don't want to lose ignatzmous's great emotional punch--so harder stuff will be separate (and second). Still working on it.
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sorechasm Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Take the time you need Peace Patriot
Just let us know when to do what.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
53. Sort of like Chuck Herrin's "empathy for conservatives" argument. n/t
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
54. Forget the Republicans, I'd be pretty pissed at Democrats MYSELF...
I suppose that's easier for me to say honestly because I'm a Green, and have long viewed some of what goes on during the Dem primaries and during the general WRT the haggling about who should and should not be allowed on the ballot with the Dems in an unflattering light.

Plus I'm still waiting for instant run-off so I don't have to choose between Green, Independents, and Dems knowing that that benefits the people I usually would least like to see in office.

So it's fair for me to say that any assault on election integrity would get me pretty irked regardless of who perpetrated it.

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NationalEnquirer Donating Member (571 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
56. Of COURSE..
Look at Washington state, where the Repubs have raised a scream.
The loser will always be the whiner in these cases.
Its just human nature.
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sorechasm Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Kick. If only we could 'count' on knowing who the loser / winner was. n/t
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
57. a TBO;24/7 kick (nt)
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
59. Ask yourself, what if a tipsy Democrat had said "we'll take care
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 07:44 PM by rzemanfl
of the counting" and Kerry had won.
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