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sepia_steel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:31 AM
Original message
Poll question: Paper or Plastic (and microchips)?
Just curious how many of us are for PAPER ONLY system. It seems that no matter how machines are involved, no matter what kind of machine it is, we're at risk of having our votes stolen again.

I say NO MORE. I don't trust the 'open-source-code' idea - they can tell us whatever they want, but if we as individuals can't inspect the machines ourselves (and of course they wouldn't let us, after all most of us aren't programmers or experts) then it's completely pointless.

I want a paper ballot. I want a Sharpie. I want a box on the ballot that indicates it IF I DECLINE TO VOTE in certain races or on certain issues. I further want Bills and laws SEPARATE from Elections (no more using gay marriage, etc, on the ballot as a vehicle to win elections. They should just have their platform and stick with that, or vote on it at another time. I might actually be flexible on this).

I want a clear plastic box to stick my ballot in when I'm done. I want a 'vote stub' with signatures (mine and a poll worker). Poll workers should have an ID # we can all use as reference. I want a reference # for myself on the ballot and on the stub. I want us to have the day off so we can vote (Voting National Holiday). Then I wanna watch them count my votes.

VOTER. VERIFIED. PROOF.

(I want a paper-only Group. Not necessarily on DU but we need to get together. PM me!)

Maybe I want too much. Lol. Thoughts, anyone? No matter how you vote let us know what you think.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Paper Ballots Must Be Hand-Counted on Election Night
http://www.moveleft.com/moveleft_essay_2004_12_28_voting_rights_tuesday_paper_ballots_must_be_hand_counted.asp

Paper Ballots Must Be Hand-Counted on Election Night, or Having Them Won't Do Much

by Eric Jaffa

Voting rights activist Rich S. writes (Dec. 25, 2004):

It’s Not the Paper Ballots – it’s the HAND COUNTING that’s Important.


In this election, almost exclusively, machines counted the vote. Now the dangers of the touchscreen machines have been analyzed ad nauseum. But optical scan and punchcard ballots are still the predominant way of voting in this country. And both are counted on election night by machines, machines that are run by custom, proprietary (read secret) software provided by private companies. Private companies whose owners donate almost exclusively to the Republican Party.


Well, you might say, at least optical scan and punchcard ballots provide a paper trail. But ask yourself: “When are these paper trails used?” 99.9% of the time, they are only used if the election is within 0.5% - the equivalent of a coin falling upright on its edge. So if the machines were rigged, and rigged to give the desired candidate a decisive edge, the cheaters would almost never get caught.


The Ohio recount was one of the first opportunities to check the honesty of these machines. But 34 days passed between the election and the certification of the election. And the recount didn’t start until eight days after that. And during this time, ballots were stored in various unsecured locations – store rooms, closets, sometimes locked, sometimes unlocked, in buildings that were sometimes locked and sometimes unlocked.


Now in this country, we have a secret ballot and that’s a good thing. Only you and your conscience, assuming you still have one, should be in that voting booth. But a secret ballot has an inherent danger – ballots are ridiculously easy to counterfeit. And the various goings on in Ohio, especially in Greene County, have many of us suspecting that is indeed what has happened.


No, if you want an honest count, an honest hand count, your only shot is Election Night. And that is why democracies all over the world still use paper ballots, hand counted in front of witnesses on election night.
It can be done. Canada recently had an election and most results were reported within a few hours of the close of polls. And they use paper ballots hand counted in front of "scrutineers" from each party. And you know what? I've never heard of a peep of "fraud" coming out of that election.



I agree with Rich S.


How elections should be conducted:


People mark an X with a pen next to the name of their candidate,


These are deposited by voters into a glass ballot box.


On Election Night, the ballots are hand-counted in front of witnesses from the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, the media, and the public.


As Rich S. writes, Canada hand-counts federal ballots. It can be done.


The Mercuri Method


There is another approach to hand-counting which I consider less-ideal, but which allows the manufacturers of electronic voting machines to continue making millions, and it's therefore more politically feasible.



That is the Mercuri Method, named after Rebecca Mercuri, Ph.D. in Engineering


Her approach is for electronic voting machines to print paper ballots behind glass. The voter can check that the printout matches his or her intent, and void the ballot if not. There is also one barcode on each ballot which encodes all the choices.


After the end of voting, the paper ballots are simultaneously counted with a barcode-reader, and projected onto a screen for observers.


Therefore, the observers can verify that the machine-count, barcode count, and their personal count of what is projected on the screen all match.


Why I Don't Support Using Electronic Voting Machines, Even With the Mercuri Method


An objection I have to do the Mercuri method is that I believe the simpler the better with regard to voting.


When electronic machines are used, they may not display all the races.


They may record touching the screen for one candidate as a vote for another.


While voters can check how their vote was recorded on a review screen, and under the Mercuri method, also on the printout, many voters don't check. If some voters check a review screen or printout and fix their choices but others don't, the election result can be different than the will of the voters.


The expense of electronic machines means fewer polling booths and longer lines tthan with plain paper ballots or optical-scan paper ballots.




Conclusion


Canada know what it's doing with regard to voting.


Plain paper ballots, hand-counted on Election Night.

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sepia_steel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Obviously, I'm with you.
Now who posted 'other' and what 'other' are we talkin'?
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Do you know how they hand count ballots with a lot of items, like we
have judicial candidates, city council people, lots of ballot measures, dog catcher, etc etc and it differs from one county to another and one district to another. People say the ballots are too complex to count by hand. Do you have any info on the Canadian system as far as this aspect of it?
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I think they handcount for federal electons and may not for
local elections.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Paper; pen; people and lots of cameras -- beginning to end.
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 02:42 PM by understandinglife
Nation-wide, standard paper (counterfeit protected) ballot for all Federal elections.

Same format paper, but separate ballot, for State and local level elections.

National holiday for national election.

State holiday for State/local elections (separate from National election).

Signature across receipt stub and ballot (as suggested above).

Hand counted -- precinct level -- big enough room for lots of observers and CAMERAS.

Paper ledger tally sheet delivered to County by specially hired for the occasion UPS, FEDEXP, or other commercial shipping company with a police escort and as many citizens as would want to join the procession.

County tally on paper ledger. Same protocol for delivering county ledger to State capital.

State level tally, on paper.

All materials used -- registration, poll books, ballots and tally ledgers, archived (for National elections the archives should be part of the Library of Congress and a line-item in the annual federal budget would cover the cost of storage and retrieval for study purposes).

It should be a felony offense for any State Secretary of State to have any role in the campaign of any person other than their own campaign.

Peace.

BE THE BUSH OPPOSITION;24/7
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. 1 'ether-vote', and 2 on paper. I sign between the two
my signature is on 2 pieces of paper that are attached when I sign them. One goes into a (recount) box, and the other stays with me.

I would be most difficult for rethugs to match my signature on the recount ballot.

Oh, and all voting info is PUBLIC DOMAIN... by #'s cross- referenced w individual voters (no names for public).
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sepia_steel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. A split signature!
What a great idea (unless they find some way to use the signature from the roll books)

Opinions on signing roll books? Should we all sign in or not?
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Even if they use one from the roll books it will be obvious
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 02:20 AM by alittlelark
that the sig's are not the same one when you place the 2 parts together.


Edited for Freepergrammar
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sepia_steel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Guess what I left out?
I want this all FEDERALLY STANDARDIZED. No state-by-state shenanigans. Make the rules clear and precise for everyone.
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Dcitizen Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. Hand count is lesser errors, but is just the start line.
Finish line is IDs validation, uncounterfeit paper ballots, non partisan control and united standards, transparency.
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NationalEnquirer Donating Member (571 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. Ya'll have convinced me. but..
On another thread, Andy has raised some serious question about the implementation of a handcount in some areas of the country.
It might be too impractical?
I dont know, hope it can be done though!
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Separate local races and initiatives from federal races
and then a handcount becomes easier.
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