DO NOT SUPPORT ENSIGN or DODD's BILL / MUST COUNT THE PAPER

[rigel99]

Do not support Ensign or Dodd's bill.. we must get Hillary or Boxer to introduce their own version and lobby for it. Period.

Here's the problem with Andy Stephen's Ensign Bill as outlined...
1. It puts the burden of counting the paper on citizens
2. It puts a huge cost burden on citizens.
3. It Gives the Diebold Software supremacy/legitimacy as the counted record Eletion night (in GA we are 100% diebold, so this is a huge problem, cause the software is coded to default to certain repub. pres. candidates, to lose the novotes/undervote percentages and to shave 3rd party candidate votes)
4. It gives legitimacy to computerized voting like there can be a 'better or more perfect computerized voting scheme'. Lynn Landis is the expert on this, we take her high ground, there can be no computer usage other than a great big printer... go to www.ecotalk.com
5. Puts us in the situation we have in GA, when you ask for the digital files to 'audit' the computer, Georgia has this handy little 'baby patriot act' called 50-18-82 where they say you cannot access the software because you might cause terrorist acts... give me a break, citizens asking for voting data will be seen as wanting to cause terrorist acts... don't believe me, read the letter from Cathy Cox Office (georgia's secretary of state who ushered in the Diebold hell in GA)
http://www.solarbus.org/stealyourelection/articles/0128...


Georgia has 159 counties, the cost per county averages $1500 to get the printouts of the Diebold tapes (receipts) as well as provisionals and absentee and labor charges. This would rack up up to $500K in just doing a full audit of the Georgia election (and put me exactly where I am today). Does Andy plan on lending all 50 states the money to do this counting?

The problem is right now Georgia IS NOT GIVING US THE DATA. They are denying access to the CD that contains the source / primary digital data from which the Georgia totals were calculated claiming it has Diebold software and using this asinine Georgia code to suggest to their Elections workers to break a law (The Georgia Open Records law clearly requires them to provide me the data). We have been told by ACLU, and 3 other law firms denying access to the CD is unlawful end of story, but still we have to pay our time/money fighting this battle.


DON'T LET THE ROVE REPUBLICANS STEAL THIS ISSUE. NOTICE ON ANDY'S LIST ALL THE REPUKES that were listed.. we need to work with Hillary Clinton who has her own elections bill and get it written from ground up correctly to go back to counting paper.. sorry if states spent millions on stupid computers, but that's not our problem. if Ireland could go from spending $45M on computers back to paper, so can we in the US...

WHY DON"T WE FOCUS ON suing the crap out of all our states right now. Legislative is going to be a big waste of time in states with majority republican and federally where we are left begging for crumbs. If we get a lawsuit saying Computers cannot accurately tabulate votes, it won't matter what Ensign passes.. the legal system will mandate a fairer election system. In Georgia we still have lots of local democratic judges that are our only hope going forward.....

[Andy_Stephenson]

1. To get to hand counted paper...first you must have paper ballots to count

Ensign's bill gives us that!

read the bill!

S. 2437

To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified permanent record or hardcopy under title III of such Act, and for other purposes.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

May 18, 2004

Mr. ENSIGN introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Rules and Administration

A BILL

To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified permanent record or hardcopy under title III of such Act, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Voting Integrity and Verification Act of 2004'.

SEC. 2. PROMOTING ACCURACY, INTEGRITY, AND SECURITY THROUGH PRESERVATION OF A VOTER-VERIFIED PERMANENT PAPER RECORD.

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 301(a) of the Help America Vote Act of 2002 (42 U.S.C. 15481(a)) is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)(A)--

(A) by striking clause (i) and inserting the following new clause:

`(i) permit the voter to verify the accuracy of their ballot (in a private and independent manner), by allowing the voter to review an individual paper version of the voter's ballot before the voter's ballot is cast and counted;';

(B) in clause (ii)--

(i) by inserting `discovered on the individual paper version of the voter's ballot' after `to change the ballot or correct any error'; and

(ii) by striking `and' after the semicolon at the end;

(C) by redesignating clause (iii) as clause (iv); and

(D) by inserting after clause (ii) the following new clause:

`(iii)(I) preserve the individual paper version of the voter's ballot, after the voter has certified that the same accurately reflects the voter's intent, as the individual permanent paper record, and

`(II) preserve such individual permanent paper record at the polling place in accordance with the provisions of paragraph (2)(B)(i); and';

(2) in paragraph (1)(B), by striking `subparagraph (A)(iii)' and inserting `subparagraph (A)(iv)'; and

(3) by striking paragraph (2) and inserting the following new paragraph:

`(2) MANUAL AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(A) IN GENERAL- The voting system shall produce an individual permanent paper record for each ballot that is cast which provides for voter verification of such record in accordance with paragraph (1)(A) and which meets the requirements of subparagraph (B).

`(B) MANUAL AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(i) The voting system shall produce an individual permanent paper record for each ballot cast that is either--

`(I) preserved within the polling place in the manner in which all other paper ballots are preserved within such polling place; or

`(II) in the absence of such manner or method, which is consistent with the manner employed by the jurisdiction for preserving paper ballots in general.

`(ii) Each paper record produced under clause (i) shall be suitable for a manual audit equivalent or superior to that of a paper ballot voting system.

`(iii) All electronic records produced by any voting system shall be consistent with the individual permanent paper records produced by such voting system. In the event of any inconsistencies or irregularities between any electronic records and the individual permanent paper records, the individual permanent paper records shall be the true and correct record of the votes cast.

`(iv) The individual permanent paper records produced under clause (i) shall be used as the official records for purposes of any recount or audit conducted with respect to any election for Federal office in which the voting system is used.'.

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this section shall take effect as if included in the enactment of the Help America Vote Act of 2002.

[RaulVB]

2. Please, define WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND is a "paper ballot"

Thanks

Raul

[starmaker]

4. PAPER RECORD?

what's difference between a paper record and a verifyable ballot?

[demodonkey]

5. A BALLOT is a specific legal term and gives it a certain legal standing.

Only a BALLOT can be counted as a vote.

Only a BALLOT can be recounted as a vote.

Calling for a "trail" or "record" allows for various interpretation as to exactly what would be produced and how it would be used.

On edit:

"Voter Verified" means that it is provided TO THE VOTER BEFORE THE VOTE IS CAST to allow for correction of his or her vote to reflect that voter's true choice.

"verifiABLE" is not good because it could allow after-the-fact internet schemes and other things that won't allow the voter to verify AND CORRECT his or her vote prior to actually casting it.

The term needs to be Voter Verified Paper Ballot.


(hi fellow 51er!)

[starmaker]

6. no paper records

we have to save our vote
so why does it talk about records?
and why do we settle for less than
our democracy back
we don't demand an end to the war
and settle for less until later
we stand united as voters so
why can't we count?

i promise to not ever cast a ballot on anything
but paper . K

[demodonkey]

7. This bill DOES make the "record" also an official, legal PAPER BALLOT

it's sort of in "legalese" but it is there, calling the "record" a "paper version of the voter's ballot". I think this is necessary so that the machine record can also be used in counting. But -- and this is important -- the PAPER VERSION OF THE BALLOT WOULD SUPERSEDE the machine version.

`(i) permit the voter to verify the accuracy of their ballot (in a private and independent manner), by allowing the voter to review an individual paper version of the voter's ballot before the voter's ballot is cast and counted;';

`(iii)(I) preserve the individual paper version of the voter's ballot , after the voter has certified that the same accurately reflects the voter's intent, as the individual permanent paper record, and

`(ii) Each paper record produced under clause (i) shall be suitable for a manual audit equivalent or superior to that of a paper ballot voting system.

`(iii) All electronic records produced by any voting system shall be consistent with the individual permanent paper records produced by such voting system. In the event of any inconsistencies or irregularities between any electronic records and the individual permanent paper records, the individual permanent paper records shall be the true and correct record of the votes cast.

`(iv) The individual permanent paper records produced under clause (i) shall be used as the official records for purposes of any recount or audit conducted with respect to any election for Federal office in which the voting system is used.'.



etc.

[rigel99]

8. PAPER BRIGADE !!!!

i love you starmaker.. and your little yoda character too..

what was it yoda said to Luke's question,
"Is the dark force more powerful?"

darker
faster,
more seductive....

Ensign's bill is more seductive.... but it's not more powerful than standing for your own bill written correctly the first time, and HAVA itself is something to be challenged, I liked Cobb's idea of state ballot measures demanding we do counted paper before the federal does anything legislatively.. but definitely should not lend time/money support to a bill that will KILL GA at any chance of having a legislative chance of removing Diebold as the 'ballot of record'.

[jdog]

19. Are you saying that is written in the law that way?

Can you give me a citation I can look up - it would really help me to understand this issue. Thanks.

[Carolab]

13. The PROBLEM with this bill IS

It doesn't specify HAND COUNTING ALL THE BALLOTS at the precinct level to ENSURE the votes match the "machine records". It ONLY specifies AUDITS. That is NOT ENOUGH!

[demodonkey]

3. I support Ensign's VIVA Bill -- it is something we can win NOW.

I am in agreement with Andy and the National Ballot Integrity Project folks. At this point we need triage. We need to stop any more counties from 'hemorrhaging' and buying more paperless DREs -- if we can, as soon as we can, THEN build from there.

Please see my post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=306505&mesg_id=307035&page=

[mod mom]

9. NO period. This Republican introduced bill has a great chance of passing!

Please don't try to sabotage it-it's being endorsed by many (Dem based) Election Reform groups. Let's not forget we do not hold majorities in the Senate or House. Do you really think the repubs are going to endorse a Boxer or Clinton Bill? If it's good enough for these groups (CASE, National Ballot Integrity Project, Velvet Rev) to back it, it's worth backing!

[rigel99]

10. GO AHEAD, AGREE with the failed election groups

the same group that failed to litigate OH successfully with all the evidence in the world. I'd ask if they are successful enough to drive legislation that will ultimately stop all citizen debate, because most election reform folks think this is good enough. After it's passed getting amendments is a dream (joke). end of debate. period. no chance to ever get the paper ballot as the counted ballot of record.... forcing me to count thru audits is likewise a losing argument unless each state has a rich bored millionaire willing to spend the 500K to 2M to do the frigging counting... jeez.. this is so easy I cannot believe you don't see it....

this bill is not good enough.. it's opening up a worm hole thru which the Repukes can push much much more computer technology down our throat and justify it as.

THE KEY is that Dean as head of DNC can make sec. of states buy off on paper ballots as long as those ballots and their counting be streamlined in the counting... you don't need anything legislative for Dean to shake a big stick (DNC funding too) at them. He's got the right idea... he fundamentally laughs at legislative things that get passed as he feels over time most legislation gets overturned by courts anyway...

[mod mom]

12. YOU ARE MISINFORMED! Did you ever think that maybe the suit is being

moved to a federal court not controlled by a Republican (Ohio) Supreme Court. If you are such an expert, what are your crenditials? I heard from election reform groups today from all over the country who are urging members to support the Ensign Bill. This is not the ultimate reform but it is significantly positive and can be passed!

[keepthemhonest]

11. ok Rigel and andy

I am in groups with both of you and i hope we can all be united on what it is we plan on backing here. We definately need to duke it out, but i would like to hear all sides and all points and then we all need to get on the same page, because if we don't the repukes will win.

[understandinglife]

14. Concur with you 'keepthemhonest' -- duke it out here, but we must...

...emerge united if we expect to achieve anything.


TBO;24/7

[torque]

15. Don't support any of them

None of the 3 bills are worth the paper their printed on.

We need pen & paper ballots cast and counted by hand then delivered by hand. NO MACHINES anywhere in the process!

[Eloriel]

16. I don't know why you're promoting Hillary Clinton or her bill

Unless she's suddenly gotten her head screwwed on straight (doubtful), and written a brand new bill, she is NOT reliable or trustworthy on this issue. She put out a bill that competed with Russ Holt's and was nowhere nearly as good.

Dodd and Hoyer worked on the original HAVA and have been horribly obstructionist re improvements to it ever since. Clinton isn't much different IMO.

[feelthebreeze]

17. I would put my efforts into someone other than Clinton...

No support on the Jan. 6th challenge, supported Rice confirmation,
toning down stance on abortion. She is becomming another Lieberman. Too centrist, too ineffectual, and dangerous to a grass roots movement such as ours. We need to develop our power base now, with Representatives who are listening to us now, to effect the change of a voter verified paper ballot...now!

The winds of change are starting to blow...do you feel the breeze?

[GregD]

25. Eloriel has it exactly right

Clinton is not to be trusted. Her original bill was f'ing awful. Further, I was close to the process during which the Graham (Holt), Boxer and Clinton bills were combined into a single bill last year. A friend was directly involved in creating portions of the language, that were intended to overcome various obstacles, and Hillary stuck a spike in them. In other cases, she introduced language, which if it reappears this year, may really burn us bad.

Do not trust Clinton on this unless she does something strikingly different than she has demonstrated in the past.

BTW Eloriel, I hear that Jim Dickson has been rolled out again recently, and is on the attack again. He needs to be neutralized. DU researchers should be looking carefully at revenues to his AAPD. I was told by an industry insider that after visiting all the offices of the "blind advocacy" organizations, AAPD was the best furnished and the best staffed. Where does this money come from? We should know that answer some day, if someone can come up with anything.

[Cookie wookie]

18. Please present proof of the following:

"cause the software is coded to default to certain repub. pres. candidates, to lose the novotes/undervote percentages and to shave 3rd party candidate votes"

"....Computers cannot accurately tabulate votes"

[torque]

20. Right, paper is the only proven method...

to minimize the opportunity for fraud. These bills are all garbage sorry.

[Cookie wookie]

22. Well, it has to get done. Aye there's the rub a dub dub.

* may be a liar so why hasn't he been impeached? Because it takes time, proof, will, political support, and on and on.

Same way with the voting issue. The groups who have a history of working on this issue know the obstacles with getting fair, transparent, and honest election systems. They've been fighting the fight and have the street smarts. This thing has to be done in stages. If we want to do something before 2006, legislation that mandates vvpat is the next step in a logical progression, as long as the paper trail can be legally used as the ballot that's counted.

[rigel99]

37. working on proof...

wanna help? it's a trench battle.. lots of letters, lots of faxing, engaging lawyers.... it's not fun work but has to be done.. and huge personal financial toil. I think GA is the only state left with a solid litigation strategy that could work. I'm reluctant to share more on this unsecured public board.. if you want to be on my needtoknow mailing list, send me an email....

[Cookie wookie]

21. Just to clarify, I don't trust computers to accurately tabulate

votes, and there is plenty of reason not to. However, what I'm saying is where is the proof that can be used in lawsuits now?

As far as Dodd goes, he is no friend to verified voting. He wrote a letter that Cathy Cox used against SB500 in Ga last spring in which he said that vvpat would disenfranchise the disabled. The photo on the Avante Vote-Trakker website sure looks like Dodd watching a voter using Avante's technology (which provides voter verified paper audit trail). Did he forget what he saw in the Avante demo, which clearly shows how the technology works, which in no way disenfranchises disabled voters?

http://www.aitechnology.com/votetrakker2/home.htm

Interestingly enough, Dodd's letter not only helped kill SB500 but looks like it downed CT Bill 388 as well.

http://www.ctgreens.org/articles/dodd_08-15-2004.html

Sorry not to post a link to the letter. I'm looking for it somewhere on my hard drive or on the web. If anyone has a link, would you please post it?

[torque]

23. I know Andy and others have put a lot of time into this

But this bill nor the others simply do not address the causes of fraud. It's common sense, it just won't help solve ANY problems. I'm sorry.

[Bill Bored]

24. Eloriel is correct. Don't look to Hillary to push for paper ballots!

Hillary came out VERY strongly on Jan 6 for E-voting!
Play the video if you didn't see it. I can send you a link. She said they did it in India and it worked great.

And read this from <http://www.wheresthepaper.org/whattodo.html>:

"On April 8, 2004, Senator Hillary Clinton introduced the "Restore Elector Confidence in Our Representative Democracy Act of 2004' or RECORD, bill number S 2313. Instead of requiring voter-verified paper ballots from all DREs in November, 2004, or the use of optical-scanner-counted or hand-counted paper ballots, RECORD delegates authority and discretion to the new Election Assistance Commission recently appointed by President Bush. The four new commissioners would decide what election equipment would be required based on a standard of "technologically impossible to comply" with a requirement for VVPAT. The purpose of law is to set clear standards and procedures so our government can operate in a transparent and accountable way, but RECORD fails to do this. RECORD encourages foot-dragging to say the least, and does not create clear advance notice or time-frames for what must be done to ensure election integrity. It is an evasion of responsibility. Regretably the bill is sponsored not only by Clinton, but Boxer (D-CA), Nelson (D-FL), Schumer (D-NY), Lautenberg (D-NJ), Hollings (D-SC), and Lincoln (D-AR). Call the offices of these Senators, 1-800-839-5276, and ask them to withdraw support from RECORD and to co-sponsor Senator Bob Graham's "Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act" S 1980."

"Senator Clinton (D-NY) previously introduced a bill called The Protecting American Democracy Act of 2003, or PADA, S 1986. Unfortunately, PADA was vague and would not ensure the security of the ballots cast, nor independent auditability of the final tallies. We opposed this bill."

[keepthemhonest]

26. I do not know

that much about any of these and I appreciate you volleying back and forth. We defianately need to talk about this and I am glad that Rigel brought it to our attention, because honestly I probably would have just gone with Andy's suggestion and now I realise that it warrants some serious thought. i guess I was up to my old tricks of following. Definately time to research for myself.

I do know that I do not trust computers(really the one operating not the computers themselves.) I can just hear the repukes if we help them back a bill that comes out to bite us in the but,saying" well the dems and independants even supported it ,so what are you whining about?" Kind of like the butterfly ballot, they said the democrat designed it(how do we fight that?)

I do think that we need to take our time with this ( but hurry too) and make sure that we build this one from the ground up.

[torque]

28. No need to hurry, we need to get right the first try.

Period.

[keepthemhonest]

29. yeah

we need to get it right the first time, but we also need to do it before the 2006 primaries ,so they cannot do any more dammage than they already have.

[meganmonkey]

30. And the Dodd bill doesn't require implementation until 2009

and won't pertain to new systems purchased beofre then. So all the states will have plenty of time to buy machines with no paper trail, let alone a Voter Verified Paper ballot...

[keepthemhonest]

36. that is great

I am sure they will be rushing to get their grandfathered in machines.

[keepthemhonest]

27. here is a tidbit from a TomMcCyntire post I have not

checked it out yet but will today.


Recommended by the top experts (progressive professionals - claudiajean, etc.)

<Read the posts here.>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

<Download the 70 page document, read it, distribute/promote it, etc.>

"Myth Breakers for Elections Officials" is a widely distributed document that was written to give elections officials the correct information about voting systems. "Myth Breakers" was delivered, by hand by local voters, to over 800 local elections officials across the country.

"Myth Breakers: Facts About Electronic Elections" is an up-to-date version of the original. We encourage voters to download a copy, print it off, bind it or put it in a folder and deliver it to your local or state elections officials.

http://www.votersunite.org/takeaction/mythbreakerssecondedition.pdf

[NationalEnquirer]

31. This kinda sucks..

I understand we want paper ballots and all, but by not supporting this, it might look like we dont see the need for it.
WE DO need the reform, its just not enough, we have to make sure that is understood.

[keepthemhonest]

32. true

it is not enough. sticky situation

[NationalEnquirer]

33. Yeah, just have to say up front...

I am against it because it does NOT go far enough!
I think that argument has been used about several issues pretty effectively over the last many years.

[torque]

34. To say these bills don't do enough?

I say they do nothing. Smoke and mirrors folks. Utter bullshit for the stupid sheople. These bills add a printout not a paper ballot. WAKE UP AMERIKA!!!

[keepthemhonest]

35. take it easy there torque

It is hard to enlighten people if you call them names.

I am all for regular ballot ,but would that get passed but congress?

[rigel99]

38. thanks for making it so clear TORQUE

so why don't we consult with ensign and let him know to add the provision, THE PAPER IS WHAT IS ULTIMATELY COUNTED, why have a paper ballot as the ballot of record and not count it? what's the point.. we have that already in GA, this bill gives me nothign I don't already have in GA.... but It's costing me huge to get this stuff (thousands per county), who wants to pay for all this counting? why is it my responsibility as a citizen...

[starmaker]

39. kick for truth in the count

[RaulVB]

40. I see too mush "fascination" for the use of voting machines

Paper ballots will not kill you.

In fact, YOU JUST MIGHT HAVE FAIR ELECTIONS, GUYS.