JK:"We were rising in polls and then went flat before Election Day"

[Laura PourMeADrink]

JK on MTP. His internals? I wonder. Also, Clinton in Davos, in interview with Charlie Rose (can't find transcript) was asked, "Why did B** win?" Clinton replied, which I am paraphrasing, "There were 3-4% undecided who went to Bush just before the election."

This does not jive with Zogby who said K was still rising on the evening of Nov 1st on Daily Show. And we know last minute (actually for several weeks before Nov 2nd) deciders went decidedly toward K. This doesn't make sense.

As for Kerry, either he:

A. Doesn't believe he REALLY won

B. Is using a tactic to keep the other side unaware of secret investigations

C. He's appeasing in hopes of getting leverage on election reform (which he didn't bring up today)

D. He's thinking, "It happened, they got me, I'm over it"

Sadly, I think it is D

[New Earth]

1. ok

whatever

[Hugin]

2. It was suspiciously wierd...

If you look back on the tracking polls just before the
election (I mean hours before) they flipped.

Running along fine... Then *click*.

Looked rigged to me.

I remember thinking right then... Well, it's over
the fix is in.

I think they screwed with the tracking polls, but,
they forgot the exit polls.


(On Edit: or they didn't think we'd ever see the
real unfugatubed Exit Polls. (That was an
accident.))

[dogindia]

4. good thinking...wonder why they did not fix exit polls until the end

[Laura PourMeADrink]

7. Exactly what tracking polls are you talking about?

[Hugin]

11. Several of them...

They were posted all over the place. I think the polls I saw were
through a "Bigger Story" or something like that guy who posted a tracking poll tracking tracking polls on Eric Alterman's blog
over at MSNBC.

It was an amazing switch... I've been wondering why nobody noticed
or ever analyzed it.

I don't think it was real. It was to cover for the election.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

20. Hmm. Zogby said his was trending up.

[Hugin]

23. Yes...

I believed Zogby was ground truth... It was the other MSM/CRM polls
which flipped.

Which convinced me something was rotten in Denmark even more.

(Edit: Added stinky fish cliche)

[Hugin]

26. LPYB...

I've also noticed those tracking polls have completely
disappeared.

Makes ya go Hmm... eh?

;)

[brindis_desala]

27. I suspect a honest reporter leaked the exit polls to expose the truth

[Hugin]

30. I'd love to think so Brindis!

But, the truth got derailed none the less.

[The Time is Now]

70. This is exactly how I felt.

as I posted on another forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=312199&mesg_id=312481&page=

[New Earth]

3. i'm starting now

to STFU and stop being rude. from now on i will just stay away from Kerry threads.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

6. Who said he was an Idiot?

[New Earth]

10. nevermind

sorry

[Laura PourMeADrink]

17. Faye, I am not trying to trash him, I am trying to understand him.

I guess it's just frustrating to hear him say that B** really won, for whatever reason.

[fooj]

5. I'm with you!

I saw the interview on MTP, too! Part of me wanted to scream...surely you must know that you didn't lose! Hell, half the country (even Bush voters) know that! I can only suppose he has decided to move forward and put the election behind him! What keeps nagging at me is the promise that they made re: NGU until all votes were counted! They didn't do that! Why didn't they honor their commitment? It's all so frustrating!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

13. Yes, I think it has become more like, "We'll make sure that

every vote is counted that THEY allow us to count" THEY being the whole lot of them who were instrumental in suppression, the dirty tricksters, the partisan election officials, and the partisan courts.

I still remember an old post which quoted Barney Frank -- in essense, We know they screwed us but what do you do about it -- They control everything.

It all sucks.

[roseBudd]

19. It's like the cop who knows who did the murder but can never prove it

in a court of law.

What were they supposed to do, break into BoE headquaters and warehouses nationwide and steal the ballots and the machines so they could examine them. We cannot prove it. That is the problem.

Computers count the votes so no one can see
They claim Bush won, I say prove it to me

[Hugin]

21. I've made my peace with John Kerry.

It must've been a crushing blow to have the entire VRWC aimed at him.

They were pushing for a concession.

What would you have done?

I've posted here several times about how I'd have delt with
it.

Put the ball in their court.

But, hind sight is perfect. He must've felt very alone and wanted to
avoid a constitutional crisis just before the VRWC generated "Falbullshitta Offensive".

He was dealing with American Soldier's lives used by the RWers for
political purposes.

He made a prudent decision. A mite too soon... But, prudent.

[Hugin]

24. As an aside...

I was so sure John Kerry would win. I told my Mom
when he did I would stop smoking.

I think he won... But, he's not in office.

Do I stop smoking?

Is it worth living?

I'm still smoking.

Signed,
Confused-in-ABQ

[New Earth]

25. lol

that's a hard decision.

i should quit too :(

[glitch]

44. FWIW - I quit smoking at the beginning of 2000 - and look what's happened

since! Looks like I picked the wrong millenium to quit smoking. :cry:

[Hugin]

50. Hey, if I stop now I might be able to vote against yet another Bush.

In 2008.

Go JEB! ;)

[xchrom]

8. i'm over it.

the election is history -- and kerry is done.
i only want to really learn from it and move ahead.
so far it's two things on my mind.
election fraud{i.e. fixing computerized voting} -- especially in light of this rovian era we're in.
second how to get the dems off the defensive and onto the offensive.

[ginnyinWI]

9. I think it's E.

E. You can only win if
1) you get the most votes and
2) the "powers that be" accept and acknowledge those votes. We didn't get #2, at least not in time to change anything. It may yet come out.

[blm]

12. You had most media repeating "terror is Bush's strongpoint" when BinLaden

video came out just days before the election. A video that BushInc HAD back in September.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

14. For real?? Did that really come out? How long he had the tape ?

[New Earth]

16. also if you watch that tape

compared with older ones, and other pics of Bin Laden, it doesn't even look like him. i wish i still had the site bookmarked that showed the comparison....but it totally does not look like Bin Laden.

[stray cat]

15. Supposedly Kerry's internals tanked in the last 24 hours

[Laura PourMeADrink]

18. What day was the tape let out?

[dogindia]

22. doesn't make sense if early exit polls were right

Could his internals be fixed? I remember a little bit ago someone did an analysis of polls right before election and that the averages of them all were not so bad but many were down. Did not bookmark the thread.

[brindis_desala]

28. nonsense the repugs were all crying their beer til midnight

[Hugin]

29. I saw it too Brindis!

They were pale and in shock...

Not as much as me on the morning of Nov. 3 tho.

NGU-

[k8conant]

31. Because they thought the fix wasn't big enough??

Mmmm

[Hugin]

32. The "Corrected" Exit Polls weren't released until around 1:00 AM.

Most people didn't see the fix until then...

Not even the morans who signed "Loyalty Oaths".

They thought they were about to re-experience
an "Immoral Democratic" President again.

Ahh... But, then Rove "Worked his sources."

What a clever little monkey he is too.

[dogindia]

38. i mean it doesn't make sense that his internals were down.

[TruthIsAll]

33. WTF! He is too much. Just like Clinton, who said Bush won the undecideds.

I am totally disgusted with all of them.

They are 1) either feeding him bad information or 2) he was threatened or 3) he's lying, in which case he does not deserve to be president.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

41. amen

[IndyPriest]

52. I think it's 1. They're feeding him bad information.

[SophieZ]

55. 2. I think he was threatened.

or 4. He is in on it.

I do think the early Dem primaries were rigged to give us Kerry.

Dean was rising nicely. Then the media played "the scream" over and over and over again. BUT, I think the primaries were rigged too.

[pacalo]

34. The remark was phrased so that people could make up their own minds.

His numbers were rising in the polls, but all of a sudden, out of nowhere, a surge of voters decided to keep a half-baked nitwit in charge. Yeah, that makes sense...





...and the spoiled brat knows it...

[New Earth]

35. thank you!

for saying what i meant to say....except you come across much nicer than i do.... :crazy:


those pics rule!!!

[pacalo]

63. YW, Faye!

Justice doesn't happen as quickly as we'd like; we have to have patience. Just because Kerry hasn't given us a circus show by frantically screaming "Election fraud!" at every opportunity doesn't mean he thinks it didn't happen. If he were acting from a script written by some DUer's, he'd have been reduced to a spectacle by the media & would have lost all effectiveness & credibility to fight this corrupt Republican machine.

[New Earth]

66. i think he's doing all the right things

for real. he is focused on exposing this administration. watching his interview on MTP last night (the rerun) - he slammed the admin. every chance he could get. I am sure he is going to go after these guys in as many ways as he can, but in order to do it he cannot be the one talking about election fraud or it will backfire on him. he's already being called 'sore loser' just for voting NO on Condi. Imagine if he brought up election fraud? people need to just leave the guy the hell alone and let him do what he plans to do. i do think soon the naysayers will be surprised.

also, why do you think the Republicans/*Admin are still going after him for shit? they FEAR him, because they know how smart he is and he is not letting up on 'holding them accountable'.

[pacalo]

68. And can you believe that the Swift Boat Liars are still leaning on Kerry?

John O'Neill's m.o. is to take instructions from the WH to go after Kerry whenever he's considered a threat, isn't it? And the fact that one of the Swift Boat Liars is moving to Massachusetts just for the purpose of removing Kerry from the Senate (which is not going to happen) shows how threatened this administration is of Kerry (& what he might find out?).

They're trying so hard to discredit Kerry -- can't people see this? And the Democrats who feel slighted because Kerry isn't acting like a half-cocked doofus (like WhatsHisFace) are playing into the WH's hands. This administration wants Kerry to go away...for their own sakes.

[Kota]

61. I love those pics. Thanks

[pacalo]

64. YW, Kota. They come in handy for moments like these. :)

[Laura PourMeADrink]

36. OK - Here's a Tracking Poll -- I see no FLATTENiNG

http://realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/chart3way.html

[Hugin]

37. I won't comment on a poll I'm unfamiliar with.

Who knows who runs it and if it's been "Corrected".

I will note... All the tracking polls I saw had Kerry
ahead. 51% to 47%. Until the last second.

(Edit: Added note.)

[Hugin]

39. LOL!

LPYB... This tracking poll is *REAL* unbiased... NOT!

FYI... A Bill "Gambli'n man" B. banner popped up when
I went there!

Nuff said.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

40. Well, even if you believe this one, and back out the 5% who

decided on election day (CNN exits) and proportion the 5% out accordingly (52 - 45 in favor of Kerry) -- that brings B winning by 1.2 million. Where the remaining votes came from is the biggest mystery since JFK.

This poll is from RealClearPolitics.com. And I can tell from their story lines - arch-conservative.

So bottom line, if this is worst case - then the other polls you cite, make in more impossible that the results are right.

It takes you back to "it's the vote padding, stupid"

[Hugin]

42. I think I agree with you LPYB...

Not sure we're beating the same drum tho...

All I've said is the tracking polls were skewed at the
end of the campaign. To further confuse the real election
results in media circles.

I'm not a "it's the vote padding, stupid" type. More of a
"it's letting corporate republicans count the votes, stupid"
type.

But, this is multifaceted fraud and that's all I've been trying
to get across.

;)

[understandinglife]

43. Forgive me for repeating myself.

I am the only person responsible for these comments. I do not have any 'insider' information. What you read here are just my opinions.

3 Nov 2004 -- What was Senator Kerry to do?

30 Jan 2005 -- What was Senator Kerry to do?

Today, as opposed to 3 Nov 2004, even more Americans detest Mr Bush.

I use the word detest to express extreme disgust with the man, with his associates and with what he has done to America and to others.

When I use the phrase 'even more Americans' I'm not referring to a few thousand. Nearly 60 million Americans detested Mr Bush on 2 Nov 2004. They were not just casting ballots for Senator Kerry because they respected him more than *, or thought he could do a better job than * -- they wanted * and every member of his theocratic, NeoCon cabal, OUT.

We are talking about millions of truly pissed folk; impassioned, angry folk.

Think about it.

Senator Kerry (just look at those photos from WI, up thread) is a powerful, articulate, intelligent, person.

Senator Kerry stands before the Nation and the World on the morning of 3 Nov 2004, at Faneuil Hall!!, and says what several of us knew to be true that morning -- "Mr Bush and his associates have stolen another election."

Think about it.

Senator Kerry, today, on an internationally broadcast TV program says to countless millions, not just in America but throughout the world, what we here know and many, many more than on 3 Nov 2004 now know -- "Mr Bush and his associates have stolen another election."

Think about it.

I have chosen the words and their order in the sentence "Mr Bush and his associates have stolen another election" very carefully. Any, I repeat, ANY sentence that Senator Kerry could have chosen, either on 3 Nov 2004, or today, or any day in between, that contained even a hint of questioning of the validity of the election would be "heard" as "Bush stole another election."

Do you realize what that might incite? Do you realize how close we are to catastrophic chaos within this Nation and around the world due to Bush's criminal activities.

Please, everyone, we are living at the edge; we are at near flash point; we are facing one of the most volatile situations in history.

Senator Kerry is doing what a truly heroic, responsible and patriotic leader MUST DO. He is diligently, thoughtfully placing the stability of our America and humanity before a self-serving, headstrong, totally irresponsible frontal assault on Bush and the theocratic, NeoCon, criminal cabal. And, I fully admit that many times during the past 3 months I've wanted him to call Bush out; but, I've grown to realize, more and more every day, that it is "We The People of the United States of America...." who must be the ones to 'call Bush out.'

Support Senator Kerry, more so now than ever -- he's earned it the hard way, by being a responsible leader, not a whining petulant child who didn't get what they wanted.

And, realize this is not a video game. Unleash the anger of millions of people and you don't ever get to hit restart or reboot. I think Senator Kerry knows he is not playing a game, I think he knows full well that the election was stolen, and I think he deeply understands the responsibility of unleashing the anger of just one person.

Just my opinions offered respectfully to all of you.

Peace.

BE THE BU$H OPPOSITION; 24/7

[glitch]

45. Well, you're right. Cool heads need to prevail. Our economy is at a

deep precipice - with one foot off. I tend to get mad and forget about cooler heads winning. Thanks for the post.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

46. IMO That is the problem, You: What was Senator Kerry to do?

How do you broach the subject without inciting chaos, like you say?
Without falling into the "sour grapes" trap?

Everyone, except John Conyers, et al, is afraid to speak about it -- even in the most non-accusatory manner.

Every day that passes, we lose the relevance of the argument.

How we properly frame this must be determined soon and talked up or how will anyone get on board with Election Reform ?

I know Kerry could not say "The Chimp Stole the Election" but why couldn't he have at least said something to effect:

"You know Tim, there is a lot of documented evidence that many people were disenfranchised and there are many people out there who have doubts about who really won. We don't know who those disenfranchised people would have voted for, granted - but we need to fix the system so we always have faith in the results."

[understandinglife]

51. In response to your specific suggested response of Kerry to Russert...

....Senator Kerry is probably fully aware of the following:

http://www.votersunite.org/info/outsourcedemocracyno.asp

Related link here at DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x310220

(some of the comments I've posted about the situation in Snohomish can be found here at DU and at VR. Here's one link: http://www.velvetrevolution.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3 )

And, the Senator most likely knows that this suit and more are going to 'break' in the coming days and weeks. In that context, in that 'frame' he'll be able to speak to the issue in ways that have not been available to him as yet.

Purely speculation on my part. But, I'd suggest that those who have speculated that much has been happening 'behind the scenes' since early morning, 3 Nov 2004, are probably correct.

Peace.

TBO;24/7

[Eric J in MN]

53. If John Kerry didn't concede on Nov. 2, 2004,

the result wouldn't have been fighting in the streets.

Al Gore didn't concede until way after the 2000 election.

The Republican who ran for governor of Washington state in 2004 still hasn't conceded.

[understandinglife]

59. I respect the fact that you can assert that opinion with such certainty...

...but, for me 'fighting in the streets' would have only been one of the potential calamities our Nation and the world would have faced if Senator Kerry had chosen to call out Bush and his theocratic, neocon cabal on the morning of 3 Nov 2004.

Note that I'm a true believer in the sentiments, perhaps first expressed by Voltaire, that while I disagree with you, I'm prepared to die to protect your right to disagree with me.

Peace.

TBO;24/7

[pacalo]

67. Wow. You've tapped into a thought I've had about Kerry

to which I haven't given enough focus:

Do you realize how close we are to catastrophic chaos within this Nation and around the world due to Bush's criminal activities.

Please, everyone, we are living at the edge; we are at near flash point; we are facing one of the most volatile situations in history.

Senator Kerry is doing what a truly heroic, responsible and patriotic leader MUST DO. He is diligently, thoughtfully placing the stability of our America and humanity before a self-serving, headstrong, totally irresponsible frontal assault on Bush and the theocratic, NeoCon, criminal cabal. And, I fully admit that many times during the past 3 months I've wanted him to call Bush out; but, I've grown to realize, more and more every day, that it is "We The People of the United States of America...." who must be the ones to 'call Bush out.'

I believe this, too, understandinglife. Do all of us even realize the depth of Kerry's character? I love this man.

[Amaryllis]

47. Anyone have a link to or transcript of the MTP interview?

[tritsofme]

48. Here

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/

[Amaryllis]

49. thanks! I love the nearly instant gratification on DU when a request for

info is made.

[SaveAmerica]

54. I do not believe that 3-4% undecided going to Bush, no way no how

A few days before the election I was trying to get the word out about a dem event that was unadvertised. I would ask 'do you know who you're going to vote for?' when I approached people. In one store in about 10 minutes' time I asked 3 women, they each said they were undecided. I then said "I have some issues with some of the things Bush has done in the past 4 years so I've decided to give Kerry my vote". They each then told me they were leaning toward Kerry too, and gave me different reasons why. The more we talked about it the more they were confident they were going to vote for Kerry. I live in a very Red area in a red state and this was in a Wal-Mart even (this was before I found out they don't carry F 9-11 or Jon Stewart's book and stopped shopping there). I know these entrance polls have more women then men in them but 3 out of only 3 that I talked to in that store were undecided but leaning toward kerry, I don't buy the undecideds for Bush theory (or any of the other theories).

[berniew1]

56. Were you paying attention to who was doing the polls & how they were struc

structured. They were known to be deliberately biased in terms of the composition of who was polled in most cases. This was known in many of the cases, and has been discussed before. You have to be really careful of your information source, since there is alot of deliberate disinformation out there in the Media, etc.

[fasttense]

65. Are Gallop polls rigged Berniew1?

You seem to understand how the media uses polls. Can you tell me why the gallop polls usually show B**sh with higher approval rating than other polls? Are they run by the neocons? I'm always amazed by the gallop poll numbers.

[KatieB]

57. Yo - watch this DU video about exit polls manipulation..

http://veredictum.com/stolenelection2004-256.ram

It's from this web site:
http://www.nashuaadvocate.blogspot.com

Kerry is not sitting still...

[New Earth]

58. w00t!

[NationalEnquirer]

60. I'm starting to think that Kerry..

Is smarter than ALL of us...

[pacalo]

62. I saw the MTP repeat late last night & I thought Kerry did a great job.

Despite Russert's scornful gotcha remarks, his eyes, which generally give away his feelings about the one in the hot seat, weren't as wild-looking or strained from an adrenalin-overload of contempt as they usually are. I've always thought that Russert was doing the WH's bidding in attacking Democratic guests, but this time Russert didn't make the usual contortional faces that betray his bias. Despite all the tough, unfair questions, I got the feeling that he admires Kerry...not that I care what Russert thinks, but it does say something about how impressive Kerry is.

I loved what Kerry said about the pro-choice issue:

Too many people in America believe that if you are pro-choice that means pro-abortion. It doesn't. I don't want abortion. Abortion should be the rarest thing in the world. I am actually personally opposed to abortion. But I don't believe that I have a right to take what is an article of faith to me and legislate it to other people. That's not how it works in America.

[L. Coyote]

69. It is easy to fact check this comment. It is part of the exit polling.

In Ohio, 2/3 of those deciding in the last 3 days went Kerry, .....

You can see every state on CNN site:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/epolls.0.html