***DEM COUNTIES IN FL GOING TO BUSH IS A RED HERRING***

[JohnnyCougar]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2646997

[shraby]

1. Check this out.

<http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000715.html>

[ogradda]

2. thank you!

what i was hunting for a link :)

[JohnnyCougar]

3. That's compared to registration

They all voted for Bush in 2000.

[FW_]

4. North Florida

A lot of counties in North Florida have Democrats that should really be called Dixiecrats. The last time a majority of North Florida voted for a Democrat was 1980 for Carter and even then the Western most counties of the Panhandle voted for Reagan. In 1976 almost all of the Panhandle except for Escambia and the surrounding counties voted for Carter. The entire state voted for Nixon in '72 and the entire Panhandle voted for Wallace in '68.

I've done a lot of research on Florida voting patterns, especially in the Panhandle. These "Democrats" are not Democrats in reality, they just refuse to change their registration.

[Helga Scow Stern]

5. What part of Florida were those voters on Olbermann in???

That's not how it looked on TV just now, when Olbermann showed those "Dixiecrats" waiting in long lines. And how they voted so strongly to increase the minimum wage. Are those the ones you mean?

[FW_]

6. I'm not sure

I'm just saying that a lot of these highly democratic counties, if you're going by registration, are not really full of people that vote democrat.

[Chili]

7. if that's true...

(and I'm not doubting it), then they lied when they came out of the polls when they were asked party identification questions. Because according to CNN's Florida exit polls, 85% of Florida's Democrats voted for Kerry.

[crickets]

14. I've heard this over and over but it doesn't quite ring true for me

Look, I live in the area. I was born and raised in south Georgia, right above the panhandle. As far as I can tell, most of the Dixiecrats changed their registration in droves, long ago. The former Dixiecrats I know (my own parents and their buddies, both in GA and FL) are now registered REPUBLICANS and make no effort to hide it. Please link or post accessible titles for your research, and if I have somehow been mistaken in my impressions over the past twenty or thirty years, I'll be glad to admit my mistake. I *live* here and don't know of any Dixiecrats. Not one. Maybe that's just me.

:shrug:

I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't a few still scattered about, but large numbers? Statistically noticeable numbers that would affect this election to the degree being discussed? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it 'on the ground,' so to speak. Could you please post some links or evidence? I'd be genuinely interested.

[FW_]

15. Yes large numbers

Do you really think 77% of Dixie County is made of "real" Democrats? If you do, please drive down US 19, stay 5 minutes in Cross City or Old Town, come back and tell me if you still feel that way.

I did voter registration for 6 months in Leon County but also did canvassing here. I can tell you that even in Leon County, which is actually 65% Democrat and votes that way too (because it's 25% African-American and has 70,000 college students) there were a bunch of registered Democrats on our call lists and house lists that don't vote democrat and haven't in a while but won't change their registration. The numbers increases immensley when you go to the surrounding areas. You can't look at Gadsden and Jefferson Counties because they are overwhelmingly African-American but the other counties are not and vote republican but are registered democrat.

Do you really think Liberty County Florida or Calhoun County is different from the small counties in Georgia or South Carolina? They're not. They vote republican, have since Reagan or even before and still do no matter what their registration says.

[JohnnyCougar]

18. links have been posted in my original thread.

http://election.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchive/Index.asp?ElectionDate=11/5/96&DATAMODE=
Here it is for your convenience.

The truth is, these people have been voting for Republican presidents for some time. It has gotten worse over the last two elections, which raises suspicions, but if there is fraud here, it has been going on for a long time.

[crickets]

40. Thanks for the data link

I'll definitely check it out. I guess I just haven't run into any of them. Which is probably just as well. ;)

[Cronus Protagonist]

8. Oh yeah, it was a FAIR vote in 2000 -- NOT!

That's not a very convincing argument you got there, but what the hey, have fun with it anyway.

[JohnnyCougar]

9. I'm having fun with the fact that they voted for Dole in 1996, too.

Are you contesting that election, as well?

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. That is a little bit better, but still...

If they have officials committing fraud, it's likely they had them then too. In fact, we know elections have been rigged in the deep south for generations upon generations.

Proof that the Republicans have ALWAYS won in a heavily Democratic area could perhaps be a strong case FOR fraud, and in fact that seems to be the case, prima facie. Your evidence may support the fraud allegations, in other words.

So, again, your case is weak, but so is the opposing case right now. As I said, have fun with it, but all this screaming around you're doing, as if you have some solid evidence of NO fraud, is a bit perplexing for what one finds under the hyperbole, IMHO.

It's a good point to note, but it's certainly not anywhere near an exoneration of the GOP in that precinct, and may even be an indictment.

Perhaps that red herring is palatable after all.

[JohnnyCougar]

11. I never even insinuated the argument you have me making

Did I ever say there was no fraud? Check my post. I just wanted to make sure people have their facts straight when they are yabbering to the media about this. Keith Olbermann made it look like these counties normally vote Democratic.

If we are not meticulous about the facts of our story, it will get picked to shreds. Remember Rather?

[Cronus Protagonist]

12. Here's your thread title...

***DEM COUNTIES IN FL GOING TO BUSH IS A RED HERRING***

Maybe it's not. Is that clear?

[JohnnyCougar]

13. It's not an argument we should be making now.

It is easily disprovable. All Republicans have to say is "These Democrats have voted Republican in the past" and the whole argument is shot to hell.

[FW_]

16. We need to pick certain counties

And the ones in North Florida are not the ones to pick. Broward, Palm Beach, etc. Those are the ones where fraud occurred.

[Sideways]

21. Hey Cougar Fuck You And Your Herring Theory

The Dixie-Crat shit is just that SHIT. I am so over your BS. You are talking out your ass. What fucking DEM would further this shit? NONE. So exactly what are you peddling here?

[JohnnyCougar]

23. Are you serious?

Or are you joking? I find it hard to believe that you think facts are bad for me to distribute around here.

[vetwife]

25. Sideways..Please read my post......It is true !

[cdp]

22. YES, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT

>If we are not meticulous about the facts of our story, it will get picked to shreds. Remember Rather?

That is so true I think I'll write it again...

>If we are not meticulous about the facts of our story, it will get picked to shreds. Remember Rather?

[joeunderdog]

27. Looks like they voted in a minimum wage hike, too. n/t

[BayStateBoy]

26. Dem Counties Going to Bush Had "Help" Getting There n/t

[Copernicus]

41. what's your point?

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=239735&page=1

"In regard to Lafayette County, FL one of the counties in question, it is true that there are far more registered Democrats in that county than Republicans (3,570 to 570, respectively), and that the county elected Bush in this year's election, but the county elected Bush in the last election, too. Four years before that, the Republican presidential candidate, Bob Dole, won in Lafayette County as well, as did the first President Bush four years before that."

[Copernicus]

42. what's your point?

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=239735&page=1

"In regard to Lafayette County, FL one of the counties in question, it is true that there are far more registered Democrats in that county than Republicans (3,570 to 570, respectively), and that the county elected Bush in this year's election, but the county elected Bush in the last election, too. Four years before that, the Republican presidential candidate, Bob Dole, won in Lafayette County as well, as did the first President Bush four years before that."

[DuaneBidoux]

17. I Agree Red Herring, and could cost credibility for the real deal

And there is plenty of evidence that there WAS fraud.

[vetwife]

19. I got to weigh in on Dixie County

who ever decides to challenge Dixie county had better rethink that position. I am not a troll. Ya'll all know me here and I tell you the truth. I lived there for years. My Mother died there this year.
Cross City is a little town just miles from a little town called Steinhatchee a fishing camp. They have no problem telling you that they don't answer to the law. They have no problem shooting and asking questions later. They have no problem making NO ONE accountable. Many Many people have died uner very mysterious circumstances in that county. No tin foil hat here..A warning ! I was told to leave town and did when I first went down to help my Mom who retired there. I got a job with a neighboring county and you don't even want to know about FDLE and State Attorneys in these areas. I was board certifed by the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement when I worked 911. The natives are not friendly. You just got to trust me on that one. I went down for my Mom's funeral and some of those people actually talk openly about the Dixiecrats and all that goes with it. Drugs back in the 70's were sold out of churches and the Feds were told to get out. Read an article from the San Francisco Article in 73 about this place. Redneck does not even begin to describe these people but you talk about gun totin? I agree with poster with 34 posts. If you want to be healthy IMO stay out of Dixie County. They voted Bush..I would stake my life on it !

Lets put it this way...Compared to some of these folks Zell Miller looks like Prince Charles. I know this. My husband's people are from there. They are buried there. My husband is a dem through and through but I assure you we are not there. All of his people are of a different kind of mindset. Nope..I am not afraid of many things but too much swamp and too much water and too much knowledge would keep me from even thinking about questioning that county ! Beware !

[blindpig]

20. afraid I must agree

I've spent a lot of time in the Apalachicola Valley, it's one of my favorite places, and I was having real problems imagining those folks producing solid dem majorities, no matter that it would be in their own best interest.

[FW_]

24. Only Dem counties in N FL

are Leon, Gadsden and Jefferson. Madison is about 50/50. Alachua is overwhelmingly Democratic but its really North Central Florida.

[EPV101773]

28. Please read this, and sign if you want to!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.petitiononline.com/USAVote/


I think the MOST IMPORTANT work we can all do RIGHT NOW is get down to business on voting reform. Not enough was done after Stolen Election 2000 and now we are back in a pile of crap.

Pass the petition on to everyone you know. OUR VOICES MUST BE HEARD!!
It is the ONLY way.

We cant have this happen again in 2008.

Also, when you sign if you want to- please leave comments & Suggestions.
Every American should have something to say

[lynch03]

30. THE 2000 election had overwhelming FRAUD TO!!!!!!!!1

How can you compare these two elections???In the 2000 election thousands of people voted for Bush, when they thought they were voting for gore, millions of African Americans were denied the right to vote.. How can you use to 2000 election as a standard for 2004 or what an election should be?? That's like using Zel Miller as an example of someone who manages anger well..!!!

[FW_]

33. Actually

thousands voted for Buchanon when they thought they were voting for Gore

[crispini]

29. Per Olbermann's blog, only 5 of the 26 counties

he cited are true "Dixiecrat" types of counties. He also said he looked at the 2000 election results as well.

[JohnnyCougar]

31. The rest still vote for Republicans

ABC just killed the story dead in its tracks and made Conyers and Co look like conspiracy theorists because of this.

[vetwife]

32. Look at this and we figure where to go .

http://homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobush/iMovieTheater256....

[EST]

36. Link does not work.

[vetwife]

37. I pulled it off another DU thread and it did work ...They pulled it

it was a clip of R Pete King telling Bush they had florida and they were taking care of the vote counting. It was in the afternoon election day and telling him they had it won.

[crickets]

39. It's still there

- you just lost the tail end of the link somehow.

homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobush/iMovieTheater256.html (add http:// to the front)


Oh, that just leaves me speechless with rage.


There's a huge number of clips at the main page:

homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobush/Menu129.html

[vetwife]

38. Go to Thread looking for JK....its there !

[bigmust]

34. That's what happens

when you go off half-cocked.

[Zorra]

43. Um, hey, Johnny.....you might want to read this before you trashtalk John

Conyers. Nothing that Congressman Conyers said is untrue. What Congressman Conyers said is "there was a substantial dropoff in Democratic votes in proportion to voter registration in counties utilizing optical scan machines that was apparently not present in counties using other mechanisms".

Here is something you may find of interest regarding this scenario (statistics are provided in the link):

Nov. 9, 2004: Last night Peter Jennings of ABC News suggested that "conspiracy theorists" have got it all wrong; that despite their registration, the voters in Lafayette County have always voted in enormous numbers for Republican presidential candidates. But how long has the county been using ballot scanners? These scanners have been around since 1964. The election results could have been routinely altered for decades, which is exactly what the late Collier brothers alleged in their book, VoteScam: The Stealing of America. The fact is that Americans don't count their own votes, they let companies owned by Republicans and foreigners do it for them. We will never know who really won the election.
snip---
It is clear that vast majority of independents and third parties voted for either Bush or Kerry. But, the second table below indicates that all the independents may have gone to Bush, PLUS there must have been a huge crossover of Democrats from Kerry to Bush - but only in counties that used computerized ballot scanners. The difference between touch screen counties and ballot scan counties is immense when looking at the % of votes cast for Bush based on Republican registration versus the % of votes cast for Kerry based on Democratic registration. Is there any rational explanation? I've contacted the Florida Democratic Party for a response.

http://www.ecotalk.org/Florida2004.htm

John Conyers letter to the GAO:

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/gaoinvestvote2004ltr11504.pdf

[mim3]

35. Re:***DEM COUNTIES IN FL GOING TO BUSH IS A RED HERRING

mim3 for the Maoist Internationalist Movement:
We did an analysis of this too and found the same thing,
in our article on the 6th, that there is probably another explanation.

This article shows you sources step by step:
http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/elections/floridafraud2004.html

[DoYouEverWonder]

44. What I don't understand is Alachua County

Where supposedly Bush had a huge Repug turnout.

Despite the fact that Kerry took a larger % of the vote here, compared to 2000, the propotion of REP votes to DEM votes is way out of whack.

Alachua County is probably the best county to look at because the results skewed in the same way that all of the other North Florida counties did. However, Alachua Co is a Democratic Stronghold.

There is no possible way our voting patterns matched so closely the voting patterns of our more conservative neighbors.

The Democratic base came out in droves and I met more than a few Republicans who either were holding there nose and voting for Kerry or not voting at all. There was very little support for Bush in Alachua County. We do not have a large population of older southern Democrats who vote Republican. If they vote Republican, they are registered Republican.

Anyway here are the numbers for Kerry/Bush for Alachua. We use Optical Scanners with a paper ballot.



Alachua 2004

Bush 47,615
Kerry 62,348

Kerry beat Bush by 14,733+


Alachua 2004

Bush 34,124
Gore 47,365

Gore beat Bush by 13,241+


1,492+ Kerry vs Bush over Gore vs Bush



Total Votes Gained between 2000 and 2004

Bush 13,491
Kerry 14,983

1,492+ Kerry gained over Bush


Funny, Kerry got the same number of votes 1,492 more than Gore did in 2000. And now Kerry gets 1,492 more votes than Bush in 2004? Just another one of those oddities that makes you go mmm?