question - do you think the Hackett election was stolen?

[garybeck]

inquiring minds would like to know.

please include your thoughts, evidence, links to articles suggesting it was stolen, exit poll data, pre-election data, etc...

thanks
gb

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[thebeckerman]

1. I think so

I think so.

Clermont, Hamilton, & Warren are counties where incredible shenanigans took place in election and in recount.

Exit polls showed candidates neck and neck throughout the day,
then all of a sudden 4% margin at the end.

[smoogatz]

2. Exit polls!!??!!

Surely you don't put any stock in those silly exit polls! Republicans lie to exit pollsters at twice the rate that Democrats do--just to confuse us! Didn't you know that?

[tk2kewl]

3. i do not think there were any exit polls

it was actual election retuns that showed them neck and neck until the final precincts were counted

[donsu]

4. of course it was - they voted with rigged machines

nt

[FtWayneBlue]

5. Yes, I think it was stolen.

Election returns were steadily coming in, then there was a huge delay in getting any updated results. Official story was that the humidity was causing problems with the op scan process. However, humidity should not be a problem in air conditioned buildings.
I think we had to wait while they were cooking the numbers and covering their asses.

[Stevepol]

16. These delays are common in DRE rigged elections. In GA in 02, this is

exctly what happened. Why do these delays happen?

It takes a little time to figure out how the election is going and to patch in the right percentage of mis-count to steal the election, probably at the central tabulator level. (In OH, it's TRIAD, isn't it?)

I think there were delays in reporting in key precincts in the 04 election as well, but I cd be wrong there.

[TruthIsAll]

6. YES, JUST LOOK AT THE GRAPHS...

http://www.geocities.com/electionmodel/ClermontTurnoutVsVote





http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x387772

[autorank]

8. and fine graphs they are!!!

got me curious!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0508/S00186.htm

[autorank]

7. See my article in Scoop

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0508/S00186.htm

or DU post summary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x390598

[Fly by night]

9. Unfortunately, Hackett had five days to contest. And he did not.

So all of our efforts to communicate with him to contest the OH-2 election, based on the obvious and suspicious problems in Clermont, were for naught.

One day, we will run candidates who know to expect election fraud and who will respond to it when it obviously occurred withinthe time period allowed. Until then, we will have to remain content with "moral" victories. And guys, we're the only one participating in contests to win "moral" victories. The Republi-Nazis just want to win, period, and morality be damned.

[StudentOfDarrow]

10. Yes.

Near the end, Clermont's election results website shut down. When it started working again, Schimdt had turned a 800-vote lead into a 3000(maybe 4000)-vote lead.

[demodonkey]

11. We need to run candidates who are TRAINED and READY to handle this...

...to expect this is going to happen, and NEVER concede until all data is analyzed (even though a concession is not legally binding, don't do it!)

Then we need to have programs in place to gather and analyze data quickly, and when it looks suspect alert our candidates to demand their recount.

Go back and look at some of the history of the Civil Rights movement. Many of these people didn't just come out and face fire hoses and dogs out of sheer bravery. They were organized, THEY WERE TRAINED as to what to expect, how to handle situations, and how to keep going. There actually were schools such as Highlander and other organizations that provided physical, legal, and psychological training and workshops.

As the Election Integrity Movement gets taken more and more seriously we need to learn from this and get our own people better organized and trained. We need to especially educate progressive candidates because it looks like they are really targeted to "get glitched", and will continue to be, unless and until we get prepared and figure out ways to effectively fight back.

[Stevepol]

18. The perfect analogy, demodonkey. CIVIL RIGHTS!!!

I keep writing letters in response to the ACLU, when they come begging for money, telling them that unless they decide to work to preserve the greatest civil right we have in a democracy, THE VOTE, they they're not getting a cent of my money.

Then, I detail the problems in GA 02, in the Kerry win in 04, etc.

But that's the perfect analogy: we're in a situation just like Blacks before the Civil Rights marches of the 60s. They had to keep hope alive themselves through all those years.

Maybe someday we'll have a leader like MLK who will somehow be able to galvanize all these disparate groups that realize we've been had in this country.

Till then, keep hope alive and do all you can as an individual to restore our democracy.

[mod mom]

12. I think they are going to run him against Dewine for senator. I am going

to a picnic this weekend in Columbus where he is the guest. Can't wait to meet him! without a candidate contesting there is not much you can do. The Ohio Dem Party has a history of ignoring election theft as our recent past suggests.

[demodonkey]

13. Not just the Ohio Dem Party ignoring fraud, its the WHOLE DEM PARTY!

I was at a picnic last week where Pennsylvania, Gov. Ed Rendell spoke and said we did GREAT in 2004... meanwhile "they" probably skimmed 3-6% off of Kerry in PA and we were second in the nation in EIRS Election Incidents (second only to FL and AHEAD of OH!)
Naw... nothing wrong in Pennsylvania....

These Democrats ignore this issue AT THE PERIL OF THEIR OWN JOBS.
Not to mention our Democracy.

[mod mom]

14. Yes you are correct the whole Party with a few exceptions, but the Ohio

Dems were present to watch the fraud under their noses then deny it happened. The chair of the Franklin county (Columbus) Dem Party (an African American no less) said the Ohio election was fair and anyone who said otherwise was a conspiracy theorist. He later told Bob Fitrakis that the machines were diverted to the Republican suburbs.

[DemReadingDU]

15. We need parallel voting

similar to what was recently done for the San Diego mayor

[mod mom]

17. It was done in the Hackett Schmidt 02 race. It is not scientific and

depends of the willingness of the voters to divulge their vote. It was also used by MoveOn volunteers at least in Columbus OH on November 2 2004. I befriended a moveon volunteer from California who handled my precinct. She even attempted to coax voters with gourmet candy but she said she was having little sucess. Elderly voters especially low income African American were very suspicious of divulging their vote.

[tritsofme]

19. I think every election that Democrats lose were stolen.

Especially in heavily Republican congressional districts.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eridani]

21. I don't know

And, as Land Shark always sez, if we can't see the data (ballots) or know anything about the counting methods (tabulation software), then it is impossible for us to know, and impossible to believe in the outcome of any election.

[garybeck]

23. I think it is possible, even without seeing the ballots in some cases

to know for sure if it was stolen.

here is one "extreme" example. let's say the exit polls show candidate A with a 25 point victory. And the voting method is DRE. The official "results" show candidate B winning by 1%.

in a case like that I think most reasonable people could agree there is a liklihood that it was stolen.

Compare that to this - exit polls are even and candidate B wins by 1%. In this case, as Landshark says, we'll never know.

the problem lies in the question of where to draw the line. What if the 25 point lead were a 5% lead? Then does it become reasonble to consider fraud?

I think this is where we have to put faith into statisticians. we can't believe just one of them, we have to look at groups and trends.

That is why I feel stronly that Bush stole 04. I don't see very many statisticians coming out and saying the exit polls were normal. On the other hand I see groups like USCV calling for an investigation, saying the chances are 1 in 16 million.

[eridani]

24. I agree that the signs point that way for 2004--

--however, we just plain don't know about Hackett.

[garybeck]

25. exactly why I asked the question

by looking at the evidence and statistical reports, perhaps we can come to some reasonable conclusions

[Amaryllis]

22. Is the Pope Catholic?