i'm a little disappointed in this forum

[mopinko]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x392872#392943

i would have thought that to people that frequent this forum the most important thing about the bush administration would be that it is illegitimate. i would have thought that this is THE most important thing to throw back at the smear machine. c'mon people.

[wtmusic]

1. What will have the greatest effect

the "illegitimate election" meme, not matter how legitimate it is, has been successfully cast as sour grapes. You're swimming upstream with that one.

[mopinko]

3. so, let's just tuck our tails between our legs, then

and crawl off like whipped dogs.

[norml]

2. If something is to be shouted in response I like Griffy's idea better.

USA! USA! USA!

The goal is to stop the shouting so that the speakers can be heard,
not to get into a shouting match.

[Nictuku]

4. This is my 'home page' for DU

I always check it first, and I use info found here to post elsewhere to try and spread the facts and information.

We are dealing with a brick wall. My only true hope is that the Bush administration (and all Republicans), will have such low poll numbers (they are probably trying to fix the polls too though...)

That when the next election occurs, and the 'theft' is so damn obvious, that We The People will rise up like they did in the Ukraine.

I don't have any hope of anything changing before the 2006 elections, all legislation to correct the problems with the election system are being blocked or side-lined.

Given all the other shit that has hit the fan (Katrina's mis-management), and holding my breath for what will be revealed by Fitzgerald's investigation, and what John Conyers is doing, and the big protests on 9/24..... it may soon be the right time for people to start opening their minds to the criminality of this administration.

I do believe in Good over Evil.

[mopinko]

5. that is what happened

i am not so much concerned with the thugs, as the people on our side, who do not believe. seeing those anti-democratic thugs, and being reminded of how they got there should win a few over. no one seemed to even get what i was talking about. we have to teach this song to the choir. they do not know it.

[moof]

6. That would deny the easiest form of protest and of course " hope "

As long as people are able to think the "elections" are not rigged
they can have "hope" that in 2006 they can make a difference and as of 2008 the nightmare might be over.
Hoping for the best is fine but to assume things are better than the evidence supports is to possibly prolong the horror and allow things that few can imagine at this point.

[autorank]

7. Who here thinks Bush is legitimate. We've got GuvWurld who

actually passed a resolution in Arcate CA proclaiming the illigitimacy of the government and fighting fake voting.

I don't understand the post. Can you explain a little more.

None of us were at the rally you speak of so what do you want people to do?

[GuvWurld]

8. I have been disappointed at times too - its about managing expectations

mopinko, I get the feeling that you want a higher degree of coordination among frequent posters here. I've seen it said that DU is not the best place for organizing. It can be tough to accept, but I think it's mostly true. It is better for getting info out and promoting a new idea or tactic.

Perhaps it is useful to get a little perspective. If you can't get out of DU what you need, then either another resource might fill your need better, or you must be more creative in what you input to DU in order to affect your desired output.

I get being disappointed, I really do. I don't fault you for complaining either. I too would like to see improvement in the coordination of strategy. Is steering in this direction a start toward addressing your concern?

[Stevepol]

9. WE WANT A DEMOCRACY AGAIN: WE WANT OUR DEMOCRACY BACK!!

This is the greatest issue in America today, dwarfing everything that has happened and is happening right now. Without a democracy, we're no better than the USSR during the cold war or Iraq under Hussein and nothing in the political world means anything other than sham and delusion, smoke and mirrors.

If you can't verfiy your vote and KNOW that it will be counted honestly and fairly, then it's impossible for a democracy to exist. At present, with 85% of the vote counted on machines that either can't be audited or are never audited, our politics is being determined by a small group of corporations, highly partisan, who are bent on destroying our country and maybe the world.

In 2002 we crossed the line from democracy to corporatocracy. The only way to restore the democracy is with REQUIRED AUDITS FOR EVERY ELECTION WHERE VOTES ARE COUNTED BY ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES. Better yet, by returning to paper ballots for all elections.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopinko]

12. you all are taking my comments the wrong way.

let me clarify-

what i wanted was for people to pick up that reminding the thugs who are haunting cindy that we know what they did last fall. i can think of no more important thing to say to them, and to the many people in the peace movement who do not know, or do not believe that we were robbed. these events are a chance for BOTH sides to be reminded.
the low level grunts that they send out there to do their dirty work are the same ones who are out there carrying the signs and stirring up trouble. doing more dirty work, chipping away at our democracy.
i was disappointed that the replies to the other thread recommended the usual protest chants and did not seem to get the significance of being able to let the actual bagmen know that we see them, and we know what they did. see?
and fu blue shark- i gave up my career 3 years ago to start pinkobuttons. i have been to about 100 demonstrations, large and small since then, and have spoken the truth, on my website, for the whole world to see, including things that might land me in gitmo. i re-invest just about every dime i make.
i haven't even seen my ass lately. so, get off it.

[garybeck]

11. how can one be disappointed in a forum ?

it is what you make it.

peronally I'm VERY PROUD of the work that gets done here and the connections that are made. Without this forum, our fight for democracy would be severely hampered.

Let's not blame others. There are many people working very hard on this issue, putting in hours every day, time that we didn't have to give before this problem with our democracy came up. There are many of us who know it is the most important issue and it will be our focus until it we have open and fair elections again whether it's next year or next decade. PERIOD.

If you think people aren't working hard enough on this issue, I think you haven't looked around.

I'm not dissappointed in "us." I'm proud of us.

onward
gb

[mopinko]

13. see my post above, but

i am just disappointed that no one seemed to get it that the grunts who do the hard work of stealing elections are the same ones chipping away at democracy again, by silencing veterans and gold star families. we have a chance to yell, right into the actual faces of the actual thieves, o-hi-o, count the votes, we know what you did.
and people thought it was a waste of time. or that we should yell impeach him, which is something you do to someone who is elected. we have a golden opportunity to let uninformed or unconvinced people in the peace movement know that voting will not solve any of this at this time.

these are the perps, go to the cindy sheehan events, and tell the truth on them. stalk the reporters who go to these things. make sure that they know that these are not citizens supporting their president, but paid party hacks. and that people know that the election was stolen.

no one got it in that thread or this.

[Melissa G]

15. Mopinko, You are not clear in your communication AFAICT

Pretty much everyone who hangs regularly in this Forum knows the elections were stolen. Except for educating Newbies it is not a topic we keep harping on. Actions are posted and we DU them to change things for the better.
What action SPECIFICALLY are you suggesting that we do so that it can be discussed and considered?

[mopinko]

17. from the original thread

>>if you go to any of the cindy sheehan events
there will be paid disruptors, ala the miami mob. when they want to shut down the speakers, they shout usa usa. i was at one yesterday, and i was shouting back- o-hi-o, and count the votes, not too late to count the votes. sadly, no one else picked up the chant.
i would like to see it catch on, tho. it seemed like the perfect response to me.>>

i was trying to make the point that the people coming out to counterprotest at the cindy events are the grunts of the republican party. the people who do the dirty work. the foot soldiers in their war against democracy. we should be taking this opportunity to tell them, to their faces, that we know what they did. that we know that they are criminals. we usually face a faceless opposition. some guys, in a building, usually in washington, who don't know or care what is being said about them on the front lines. but these guys are sent by the dark lord, right into our faces. of all the things that we can say to them, i think the most important is- count the votes- o-hi-o.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

14. depends on what your goal is

If you want to change the situation, then you have to change the laws.

If in North Carolina, we had used the Bush stole the election argument as the reason NC lawmakers should vote yes for VVPB, then we would have been shi* out of luck.

I think this forum is geared at solving the problem.

However, if your goal is purely to inform or try to convince others that the election was stolen, then I could see your frustration with those who are instead focused on protecting future elections.

[mopinko]

18. this is not about the legislative process

it is about a teachable moment for others in the peace movement, and looking the ground level troops of the thugs in the eye. i think that yelling o-hi-o in the face of the actual thieves attempted intimidation might mean 2 + 2 equals a stolen election for the doubters or the uniformed.

[marions ghost]

23. excellent point

There are (at least) two goals in this fight:

Change laws for future benefit
Educate and inform about what happend in 2004

They are not mutually exclusive, but take different strategies and effort.

[garybeck]

16. Why don't you send Cindy

a copy of the Election Truth CD-ROM?

[mopinko]

19. she is on the road until she gets to dc.

are you going, by any chance?
fwiw, tho, i don't think that is a place that she wants to go at this time. i don't blame her. it would only muddy her message.
it would be good for her to have that, tho. how about sending one to the crawford peace house? on me.

[Melissa G]

20. I think it muddies the message of all the folks there.

I was at Crawford. There were the folks there from the Communist party trying to muddy the message. I did not appreciate what they were doing and many folks who were with me did not appreciate what they were doing.
I hang out at this forum most everyday and work on the issue of the stolen election everyday. I work on anti war efforts, anti Death penalty issues and a host of other things that would be furthered by getting rid of this administration. I still do not appreciate a march or issue being muddied or hijacked by another cause.

[garybeck]

21. I thought your whole point was that

the antiwar people need to realize that Bush stole the election. Now you're saying you don't want to muddy the message. I give up. What exactly are you upset about? Please don't point to another thread, just say it.

as far as the CD goes, I'd rather send one to you and you can send a copy to the peace house if you think one belongs there.

Gary

[mopinko]

22. bah. please, don't get lathered up, folks. i didn't mean it that way

the point was that we were face to face with the actual thieves. many of the people in the crowd didn't realize that the counter protesters were rent-a-mob party hacks. the grunts who do the dirty work. they were right there, showing themselves for the monsters that they are- trying to shut up and drown out gold star families, by screaming usa of all things, and holding signs that said support the troops.
see- the actual mobsters were right there. that is what i am trying to say. the cogs in the machine were standing right there. it is a chance to say, not impeach, which is something you do to someone who is elected, but we know that you stole it. you. personally, mr thug wearing a uniform that you are probably not entitled to wear. you are illegitimate. we do not recognize you as our elected government.
the people who may suspect, but cannot believe, might just look at what animals they are being, and see.

as far as cindy, and peace house, and the co-opting of causes, i understand all that. i do not expect cindy to stand up for this issue. i have seen that kind of stuff, it is rarely good. but it only strengthens the call for impeachment, which she has embraced, for those of us who are in the know to be out there, speaking the truth, right into their ugly faces. stand up and say i believe. o-hi-o.

i did not mean to ruffle feathers, i'm sorry if anyone took it that way.
peace.