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German Exit Polls -- Will the True Believers be Happy?

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 03:07 PM
Original message
German Exit Polls -- Will the True Believers be Happy?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5286603,00.html
"The exit poll from ZDF public television showed Merkel's Christian Democrats with 37 percent...Schroeder's Social Democrats were at 33 percent."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5286931,00.html
"ZDF public television projections based on exit polls and early counting gave Merkel's Christian Democrats 35.2 percent and the Social Democrats 34.1 percent."

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050918/w091818.html
"An exit poll by ZDF public television indicated Merkel's Christian Democrats at 35.9 per cent...Schroeder's Social Democrats were at 33.6 per cent..."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1137024
"A survey for ARD television gave Merkel's conservatives...35.5 percent...Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's SPD stood at 34.0 percent..."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1713767,00.html
"The first official preliminary returns of the cliffhanger election showed that the CDU and its Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union (CSU) took 35.2 percent of the vote while the SPD followed closely with 34.3 percent."

Post more breaking news here. I don't have that much time to work on this exit poll stuff, but it's clear that they make adjustments over there too. In fact, you might say they're fighting the exit polls over there so we don't to fight them here!
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. and those crazy Germans have two competing exit polls
-- you probably thought they were all about efficiency. (The ARD one is separate from the ZDF, just in case anyone wondered.)

Wow, I hadn't seen that 35.9 figure before -- weirder and weirder.

If the 'raw' ZDF poll really had the Christian Democrats with 37% of the vote, I would think that True Believers would either be saddened or enraged. Since they ended up with 35.2% of the vote, that is an error of between 1.3% and 2.3%. I don't know the sample size, but in the past it's been over 20,000, so the margin of error should be about 0.7%. (Bigger if you include a design effect, but as regular ERD readers know, that should be called the obfuscation effect, so fuggedaboudit.) I figure the odds are somewhere between one in ten thousand and, umm, one in forty billion?

It would be sure proof of election fraud -- if the ARD poll hadn't come within 0.3%.
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anaxarchos Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Man, you guys really grasp at straws....

<Begin Quote>

The ranges of the various exit polls (and if someone has links to sites breaking down the results by polling organization, that would be most appreciated) were within half a percentage point of the official result.

To put them side by side:

CDU (Merkel's coalition): Exit polls 35.5-36%, official tally 35.2%

SPD (Schroeder's party): Exit polls 33.5-34.0%, official tally 34.3%.

Amazing. Maybe the Germans are uniquely good at polling ,or German voters uniquely compliant. Well, no, seems the Brits did pretty well in the May 2005 UK election:

This is the first year that the BBC and ITV have combined forces to do a joint exit poll, whose results were known just after the polls closed at 10PM.

The BBC/ITV News exit poll predicted a Labour majority of 66 seats which was exactly the final outcome (assuming that the Staffordshire constituency, where the vote was postponed because of the death of the LibDem candidate, returns a Conservative).

The polling companies NOP and MORI interviewed some 20,000 voters as they left 120 polling stations throughout Britain on 5 May.

It predicted 37% for Labour, 33% for the Conservatives, and 22% for the Liberal Democrats... Whatever you think about the US exit poll, I think we can lay to rest any argument that exit polls are inherently flimsy and only good for detecting gross discrepancies... Exit polls can be sensitive enough to offer evidence of serious irregularities, even in a close election. Case closed.

<End Quote>

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/18/205223/674


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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. UK exit polls
Fact check:

http://pollingreport.co.uk/record.html

2001: BBC/NOP over-estimated Labour lead by 2.7 percentage points
1997: BBC/NOP over-estimated Labour lead by 5.2 percentage points
1992: BBC/NOP under-estimated Conservative lead by 3.6 percentage points
1992: Harris/ITN under-estimated Conservative lead by 2.6 percentage points

1992 was particularly gruesome, as although conservatives led both the poll and the count, the polls forecast a Labour plurality of seats; in the event, John Major's limping Tories got a slim but working majority in the House of Commons, and formed a government for the next five miserable years, despite steady erosion of the majority through successive bye-election losses.

Note also that every poll error under-states the conservative vote. Note also, that while our constitution has its share of daftness, our vote counting is a model of cheapness and transparency (paper ballots hand-counted under public scrutiny), and until this year, "voter fraud" was also virtually unknown. "Voter suppression" is an unknown term.

Contrary to frequent assertion, therefore, UK exit polls are not uniformly accurate, and moreover have a marked tendency to depart from the count in exactly the same direction as the E-M poll has departed from the vote in your last five presidential election i.e. an under-statement of the official conservative vote. Pre-election polls tend to follow the same pattern. ICM polls for the Guardian have factored in "shy Tories" since 1992, and have tended, as a result, to paint a more realistic picture of the likely Labour win than other polls (and is one of many reasons why I read the Guardian.

This article from ICM:

http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2002/failure-of-the-polls-1997.htm

is worth reading if you want to know what UK pollsters think about polling accuracy, false memory, shy Tories and other phenomena. Especially as in the UK we can be pretty certain that where there is error, it is in the polls not the count.

And error there is.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. are you saying that the Guardian made up its numbers?
I think I can comfortably stand by my statement: "If the 'raw' ZDF poll really had the Christian Democrats with 37% of the vote, I would think that True Believers would either be saddened or enraged." I don't think we've established yet whether the premise is true or false.
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youngblue Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm confused
Edited on Mon Sep-19-05 10:17 PM by youngblue
Were these all the same exit polls? When were they done? Where they using diebolt (or other DRE) machines in Germany? Wny did they keep changing over the course of the night?

I guess I don't know enough to know what this means.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I'm not sure any of us knows quite enough...
I know that there are two different German exit polls (ZDF and ARD), but for now I can only guess why there seem to be two different results from one of them (the ZDF one -- of course I'm not counting the projections that explicitly incorporate early counting). And we can't tell what time any of these numbers is from.

One could incorporate partial official returns (as ZDF did -- apparently quite successfully -- in making their "projections"), or one could incorporate pre-election surveys, or one could have different geographic weights, or....

And in Germany, people actually cast two votes, which I imagine could complicate the analysis.

They definitely weren't using Diebold machines in Germany, but I think something like 7-8% of voters were expected to use one kind of electronic voting machine that passed the German standards. I have no idea how that turned out.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. three polling institutes-> three exit polls
FORSA -> RTL, Forschungsgruppe Wahlen -> ZDF , Infratest DiMap -> ARD

Emnid and Allensbach didn't do exit-polls on their own IIRC.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. any idea who got what, when? I can't find a Forsa/RTL result at all...
but then, I also can't read German. I just barely puzzled out what "Erststimmen" and "Zweitstimmen" meant.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well
Edited on Tue Sep-20-05 10:23 AM by Kellanved
I don't know. I got the first exit poll data half an hour before the polls closed (don't ask ...).
They were compiled from data obtained from all three institutes and said:
spd: 33-34, cdu: 37-38, FDP 10-11, Greens 7-8, PDS: 6.5-8 .

RTL/FORSA won the exit poll contest (as they did in 2002) with the most precise prediction, their 6PM numbers were:
SPD 33.6, CDU/CSU 35.9, FDP 10.6, PDS 8.6



The mixed-mode ballot certainly has a few interesting implications.



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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. wow, 37-38 (I assume you meant) for CDU/CSU?
That's even worse. (Not terrible, of course. All this is against the backdrop of the idea that German exit polls are supposed to be accurate to within a fraction of a percentage point -- which is sometimes transmuted into the generalization that exit polls are usually accurate within a fraction of a percentage point.)

I see that the CDU/CSU did better in the Erststimme than in the Zweistimme -- 40.9% or so -- a larger gap than in the 2002 elections. I read somewhere that many CDU/CSU supporters probably voted strategically for the FDP in the Zweistimme. So, does one suppose that some German voters may have voted CDU/CSU in the Erststimme, voted FDP in the Zweistimme, and reported CDU/CSU in the exit poll because it best reflected their true preferences?

Do you happen to know exactly what Germans are asked about their vote(s)?
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. strategic vote splitting
Edited on Tue Sep-20-05 10:32 AM by Kellanved
A discipline as old as the federal republic ;-)

I was polled after I cast my vote in the 2002 election, basically they asked (multiple choice questions): how did you vote? why did you vote this way (weight five or six issues)?
Then came demographic stuff (age, party affiliation, income, family, neighborhood, religion,...)


Edit: German exit polls aren't very accurate. The only thing creating that impression is that the results aren't released to the public until after 6PM.
Inofficially the numbers start circulating during the afternoon; those numbers are never very accurate.
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Ha.
Bang goes another meme.

And don't tell me - they are more accurate after 6pm because they are calibrated to the vote returns?

Actually, do tell me. I'd love to know how they get more accurate after 6pm.

In the UK they are not recalibrated but the predictions are. What gets reported is the "swing". Immediately after polls closer the "swing" figure comes from the exit polls. Then after a couple of hours, the first results come in, and the "swing" is factored into the prediction, but by then it isn't called an exit poll prediction anymore. It's just the "Swingometer".

The polls are left with egg on face, and are a standing national joke. I can't believe they are constantly cited here as evidence of the "accuracy" of polls. If our polls were "accurate" this time, it's probably because they've finally figured out how much weight to give the "Shy Tory" factor.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. at 6PM the official data gets released
I.e. they can factor in the actual results from the districts using computer ballots. So they can do a pretty good prediction for the proportional part of the vote; the data who won in which district starts coming in a few hours later - just like in the UK.


The never-ending stream of polls is a sad fashion - one can't measure without changing the value measured. And in the case of polls: one can't publish the results without changing the value.
In mid-term the numbers are simply without relevance, as most voters are undecided. That doesn't stop the media from using those numbers, though.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I am startled and puzzled
I hadn't really paid much attention, but Steve Freeman's exit poll paper (http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/Documents/ExitPoll.pdf) came up with a figure of 0.26% average error over the preceding three Bundestag elections, and I had never seen anyone challenge it. Hey, the efficient Germans, who knows what they are capable of? (grin) When Mystery Pollster tackled the topic, he didn't challenge the figure either.

But now that I stare at Freeman's paper, the exit poll predictions all are rounded to the nearest 0.5%. So some sort of processing is going on there, obviously.

But -- actual results from the districts using computer ballots?? I thought there were none of those until this year. I am now very confused about what actual results are available at what time. (Maybe you should start with a basic fact: do the polls close right at 6?)
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. exactly: the polls close at 6
Edited on Tue Sep-20-05 02:59 PM by Kellanved
And the cumulative error of the first set of post 6PM predictions tends to be in the ballpark of 3%. On average the cumulative error is 3.1%, or about 0.5% per party.

Computer ballots are in use since the 80s, but not very often.
Initially it was in representative precincts, today many of the richer cities are switching to computers in order to reduce the number of helpers required.

Paper ballots aren't perfect; attempts to fill out several ballots are recorded every time and about 350 voters were disenfranchised by various fuck-ups this time.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. hmm...
A cumulative error of about 0.5% per party is about double what Freeman reports, but at least it is qualitatively similar, i.e., much better than in the U.S. -- although, if those results also incorporate official returns (or even pre-election polls), then the record is somewhat less impressive. (I guess this year incorporating pre-election polls would make the predictions even worse.) But if I understand your point about computer ballots, the first post 6PM predictions can't have incorporated _many_ official vote returns, if any, prior to this election. Is that true? And surely it would take a while to incorporate even computer voting returns? (Here in the U.S., the exit poll results were released on cnn.com within a few minutes of the poll closing times -- at least the ones I was monitoring -- so there would have been no opportunity to incorporate returns.)

Here in the U.S., there were three waves of exit poll data (Calls 1, 2, and 3), and there were two estimators (one that incorporated pre-election polls, one that didn't), and then of course the results were updated as official returns came in. And now data sets are available for download, so we have access to responses without any weights whatsoever. It makes for some pretty confusing conversations about what "the exit poll results" were, or whether "the exit poll results" were leaked, etc.

Right now, I can't tell whether the (German) exit poll results you described from half an hour before the polls closed incorporated all the interview data -- and, if they did, why they seem to have differed substantially from the reported results, even the 37% figure (see original post). I also can't tell if ZDF reported 37% on air; if they did, that would be an unusually large error, yes? (37 for CSU/CDU and 33 for SPD would be a cumulative 3.1% error for those two parties alone, right?) The cumulative error from the numbers you gave above would be "huge." So I am still puzzled.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I see
I guess the major question is: is the per-party accuracy the important factor, or is the overall cumulative error the important value?
In a two-party system, the cumulative error should be almost exactly the double of the per-party error.


In Germany there are about five waves :
-unpublished exit poll data while the polls are still open
-The 6PM prognosis, almost entirely based on exit-polls (and undisclosed statistical data)
-Starting at about 6:10PM increasingly accurate projections in 20 minutes intervals.
-between 8 and 9 the data who won which district starts coming in
-At midnight: the preliminary final result.



http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/30/0,4070,2375902-5,00.html
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. wow, this is sick fun
On your first point, I would say that neither per-party or overall cumulative is perfect, although per-party will tend to be more comparable across countries. It's impressive that the German cumulative errors are typically smaller than the U.S. cumulative errors, given how many more parties are involved. One would tend to expect (at least from a naive statistical standpoint) smaller errors for smaller parties, which would tend to reduce the per-party error -- but the cumulative error can only go up.

It seems not to matter so much. Freeman computes a coalition differential (SPD/Green versus CDU/CSU/FDP) for the same three Bundestag elections and three European Parliament elections. It works out differently from year to year than the per-party error, but the average coalition differential is just over two times the average per-party error (that is actually lower than one might expect).

(By the way, let me be clear: the cumulative and per-party errors you reported are each about twice as high as Freeman's Bundestag results -- although it appears that you have averaged over six parties and he has averaged over five. So there is still an anomaly there. Of course I don't even know for sure which elections you included in your average.)

Anyway, in a perfect world, what I would like to know is: (1) What figures were the 6PM prognosis or -es, especially the ZDF prognosis (since we have at least two that might have been), and (2) where do the numbers that you reported fit in -- do they incorporate all the interviews but less/different statistical info than in the prognoses, or what? (And of course (3) why are your averages different than Freeman's? Dunno if you've looked at what he did -- http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/Documents/ExitPoll.pdf, pp. 7-8, in case you're curious.)

But I appreciate your telling me much more than I knew before!
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. five parties and an "others" column
That's the way the data gets presented (and how it is collected), as there are usually about 20 parties on the ballot.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. yeah, that's the least part of the anomaly
Freeman reports the "others" totals, but doesn't
average them in. 

Might as well pin that down -- first number is Freeman's 5-way
average, second is a 6-way average with "rest"
(other parties), and I've added the 6-way cumulative total,
all per Freeman's numbers for FG Wahlen.

                5-way    6-way   (6-way total)
2002 Bundestag  0.30%    0.32%       1.9
1998 Bundestag  0.18%    0.17%       1.0
1994 Bundestag  0.30%    0.27%       1.6
avg  Bundestag  0.26%    0.25%

2004 Euro Parl  0.42%    0.48%       2.9  
1999 Euro Parl  0.36%    0.37%       2.2
1994 Euro Parl  0.55%    0.83%       5.0
avg  Euro Parl  0.44%    0.56%

So it's really only in the 1994 EP election that this makes a
"big" difference. I still don't know why your
cumulative errors are larger. (I also don't know what numbers
Freeman would regard as "the" FG Wahlen exit poll
predictions from 2005, so I can't factor them in.)
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. FG Wahlen is ZDF
"Research Group Elections".

I took the 3.1% from an ARD self-presentation page (http://wahl2002.tagesschau.de/meldung/0,2392,SPM1498,00.html) .
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. thanks, great link -- I am chuckling at my Google translation
It says here that it is necessary to correct for the higher "raterate rate with older women...." (That is the translation of Verweigerungsrate.) Looks like that is actually "refusal rate," yes?

Heck, about the only thing I thought I _knew_ was that FG Wahlen = ZDF. All else is a blur. But I am figuring it out, I think.

So, is it that Infratest dimap collects the raw data, and then each company (Wahlforschungsinstitut) does its own projections (Prognosen) on behalf of ARD, ZDF, or RTL, based on their distinctive assumptions about sociodemographics, comparisons with past elections, and absentee votes (I was flummoxed by "letter voters" = "Briefwähler," but I bet it's absentees)?

It says that the 3.1% figure applies to the projections of ARD and ZDF over the "last five years" ("letzten fünf Jahre") -- perhaps obvious to a German, but totally opaque to me. Does that probably mean that they have averaged the ARD and ZDF projections over the last five Bundestag elections, or what?

Also, are you able to check my reasoning in #25?
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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. What I don't "get" about 11-2-04
Why are most of you analyst types using the "final reported results" as THE baseline reference? Do you not accept that the non-counting of provisionals, the probable electronic vote erasing or switching, the many reported anomalies in Ohio (more votes than registrations in Miami County, etc., etc.) represent a real-number loss of votes for one or another candidate? I don't have the data or the smarts to analyze this; perhaps someone took a stab at it earlier this year?

Was the true intent of all 120-125mm voters truly revealed more closely in the polls or the results? I'd go with the polls myself.
At least that raw data wasn't jiggled to fake the replies of people
who'd just cast their vote. Why can't we see the raw data? What's to hide? I think we can make a good guess.

And why is there a provision in the Carter-Baker report to not allow exit-poll results to be published until AFTER the "vote count?" This is more evidence that the power elite will do
anything to thwart the will of the VAST majority of citizens. Unless
we truly revolt against the thieves (visualize the breaking point of the French citizenry in 1785-89...or the colonies in 1772-76), it will only get worse here. What has to happen? Not pretty, eh?

Do you think that the national E-M sample of some 70,000 (I believe) responses was NOT accurate, before "weighting?"

I do not understand why or even how y'all can assume that the
reported results accurately represent the true vote. I'd love to have this explained...the rationale. Thanks...
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Well, the baseline you use
Edited on Wed Sep-21-05 01:20 PM by Febble
depends on what you want to know.

If we are talking about the exit polls, here's how it works:

The exit polls were designed to allow the networks to "call" a state for Kerry or Bush before all the votes were counted. I dunno why. I guess television networks are impatient.

So the E-M election-night predictions are based on three data sources: the exit poll responses; the precinct counts; and the county tabulations:

How are projections made?
Projections are based on models that use votes from three (3) different sources -- exit poll interviews with voters, vote returns as reported by election officials from the sample precincts, and tabulations of votes by county. The models make estimates from all these vote reports. The models also indicate the likely error in the estimates. The best model estimate may be used to make a projection if it passes a series of tests.


Edison-Mitofsky FAQ

The "series of tests" is a series of statistical tests. Once a certain fairly stringent level of certainty is reached, the Networks can "call" the state.

So, from one perspective, yes, it's "jiggled". But think of it in a different way - all the networks want to do is to predict who is going to win the official vote count. They do not hire E-M to run an audit on the election. They hire E-M to tell them who is going to be president. So they get the best data they can as soon as they can. Before there are any results, the best data is the exit poll responses. Once the results come in, the predictions can be fine-tuned in accordance with the count.

OK. But say you mistrust the count, as we mostly do around here (and I certainly did). What we then want to know is: what were the polls predicting BEFORE they were "fine tuned" to the count?

Well, we have Jonathan Simon's screen shot data, and we got that fairly soon. In fact most of us got it on election night when we thought that Kerry was winning. But later E-M issued a lot more data. In their evaluation, issued in January they issued firstly their "raw" predictions, state by state, although these would have been weighted by various demographic factors. Secondly they also gave us tables telling us the extent to which their precinct selection was good - in other words, the difference the vote count proportions from their selected precincts in each state, and the vote count for the state as a whole. These are compared with the "Final Margin" - I am not sure quite how final this margin was. And thirdly, they gave us average "Within Precinct Error" for each state - the average difference between the margin in the responses at a precinct and the margin in the vote counted for that precinct. In most cases vote-count margin was computed from the precinct tallies, but I believe in some cases it was computed from county tabulations.

In addition, the actual raw responses from every single respondent is available for public download here:

ftp://ftp.icpsr.umich.edu/pub/FastTrack/General_Election_Exit_Polls2004/

However, it does not give precinct identifiers, nor vote totals, as these would allow precincts to be identified, and given the level of demographic detail provided for each respondent, would be a serious breach of confidentiality.

Two other data sources have been released: one was the dataset for Ohio prepared for ESI, in which the vote totals were randomly altered ("blurred") in order to prevent precinct identification. And the other are the scatterplots of precinct level data, downloadable from this DKos diary:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/24/213011/565

which Mitofsky presented at the AAPOR meeting in May. You can read more about it here:

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2005/05/aapor_exit_poll.html

So the question is: how much can we tell from the data that has been released?

Well, the answer is not as much as we'd like (in my view, though no doubt TIA would disagree).

However, some things are clear:

1. There was a massive "red-shift" between the raw poll responses and the counted vote, whether this was measured as the "Final Count" or as the "Within Precinct Error" (disrepancy between poll and count at each precinct).

2. This cannot have been due to chance.

3. It was not due to non-representative precinct selection on the part of E-M.

4. While it was a larger discrepancy than in any of the last five elections, all previous elections have had a "red-shifted" discrepancy, and in 1992 it was nearly as large.

5. The discrepancy was at the level of the precinct.

This means that either it was due to precinct-level fraud (or possibly county-level fraud, although most of the discrepancy appears to have been between poll and precinct count). Or it was due to some form of bias in the poll - either "non-response bias" (refusers being more likely to be Bush voters than Kerry voters) or sampling bias - interviewers tending to select more Kerry voters than Bush voters for interview.

In support of this last hypothesis, E-M report that the bias tended to be greater when interviewing rate was low and thus there was more opportunity for non-random voter selection, and when the interviewer was a long way from the precinct. However, they do not quantify the size of this effect statistically.

Against the fraud hypothesis are two findings: one is ESI's finding that "red-shift" was not greater where Bush's vote increase was greater; and the finding presented by Mitofsky at AAPOR that there is no significant correlation between red shift and the proportion of Bush's vote. The reason this argues against fraud is somewhat complex, but it arises from the fact that polling bias results only in more "error", but fraud results both in more "error" AND a shift in the vote count.

However, there are many kinds of election "theft" that would not show up in the polls:

Voter suppression was widespread, almost certainly cost Kerry far more votes than Bush, and would have had no effect on the exit polls.

Votes could have been erased in Dem precincts and multiplied in Rep precincts and this would not have shown up in the polls either.

So here is the state of play as I see it:

1. There is some evidence that polling bias contributed at least in part to the exit poll discrepancy, and there is plenty of precedent for this both in the US and elsewhere.

2. There is little evidence that fraud contributed to the exit poll discrepancy.

3. There is plenty of evidence of voter suppression.

4. There is plenty of evidence of minority voters having greater rates of vote spoilage (over and under votes) and being more likely to be issued with provisional ballots.

5. Electronic fraud was clearly possible, and some forms of electronic fraud would not have been detectable in the exit poll.

6. There is a large amount of evidence for anomalies of various sorts throughout Ohio.

7. The margin in at least two states, Ohio and NM, was sufficiently small that the combination of voter suppression, vote spoilage, and possibly certain kinds of electronic vote fraud could have cost Kerry the election.

So, speaking for myself: I do not assume that the reported results "accurately represent the true vote". I have spent many months thinking about ways the source of the exit poll discrepancy could be determined. I don't think, in the end, it is answerable definitively. However, I do think that faulty polls are perfectly plausible. I also think faulty voting is possible. But my current hunch is this:

1. That the exit poll discrepancy in Ohio at least, and probably throughout the country, was primarily due to polling bias, and not to fraud.
2. That voter suppression was huge, especially in Ohio.
3. hat fraud was probably attempted in Ohio and may have succeeded
4. That voter suppression and possibly fraud MAY have cost Kerry Ohio and New Mexico, and thus the presidency.

(edited to fix link)
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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Thanks, Febble and OTOH
Much appreciate your replies; will digest and respond.
I don't think Carter "signed off" on the exit-poll timing, but it's
in the report, nonetheless. How were the recommendations in the C-B report decided on within the C-B panel? Majority vote? Do we know? I haven't read it, but suspect Prof. Pastor's
apparent attitude has biased the report the "wrong way."
Agreed that exit-polls are not directly related to possible fraud,
but they are a part of the "whole" picture and thus, I believe
useful in assembling evidence. More later from this layman...
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. I wondered about the C-B process, too --
I sure can't tell from the report itself.

I'm not even sure what the exit poll recommendation is supposed to mean -- not to release results "until the election has been decided"? In 2000, would that have meant in December? in January?

There is something to be said for the idea that early calls discourage people from voting, although I don't know whether anyone has ever shown that this actually happens. If the media outlets decide to "hold" the Ohio exit poll results until the Western elections close at 11 PM Eastern, I'm not too troubled by that -- but honestly, I don't think they should. Rumors will be going around regardless, so we might as well get some facts as well. And y'know, there are enough vote counts by 10 PM that Westerners can start to form some pretty decent impressions about what is going on, even without exit polls and checkmarks.

A really simple common-sense change, not one that any commission needs to recommend, is for the media outlets to be clear about which exit poll results incorporate official vote counts and which do not.

I dunno whether the report recommendation threatens the use of exit polls to explore possible fraud, but I do agree with your premise: exit polls are part of the whole picture, and the information should get out as early and as clearly as possible. The notion that we are less likely to overinterpret information if we have less of it just makes no sense to me.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. shorter Febble(?): I trust neither the polls nor the official returns
as revealing the true intent of voters. Really, I don't. We seem to get stuck on that see-saw -- what foo_bar likes to call the "excluded middle." (Hmm, a see-saw of the excluded middle -- well, the image makes no sense, but then IMHO neither does the phenomenon.)

I'm tempted to reply to some of the other points, but that one is much the most important. If I (just as an exemplary "analyst type" -- grin) say this, that, or the other about the exit polls, it has no direct bearing on the extent of election fraud or vote suppression in 2004. Nor does it mean that I don't really care about those things. They are separate topics.

OK, I'll reply to one other point. I totally disagree with the premise that, say, Jimmy Carter would support delaying exit poll results in order "to thwart the will of the VAST majority of citizens." In the U.S. context, if a vast majority had opposed Bush, last November would have looked a lot different IMHO, even if we assume that the election count was rigged.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. maybe while you are answering Febble...
(I have the same question about accuracy -- part of the reason one might not even expect early U.S. exit poll returns to be accurate is that traditionally Democrats vote late. Obviously that doesn't explain what happened in 2004!)

Here is my key question: Did they ask you both your first and your second vote?
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. yes, they did ask for both
But only wanted an explanation for the second vote.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. the other shoe drops
You say that RTL/FORSA projected 35.9 CDU/CSU and 33.6 SPD at 6 PM.

If that is right, then the CBC source that Bill cited in the original message just misattributed RTL's numbers to ZDF. And so I guess the ZDF 6PM projection really was 37.0 and 33.0, in each case to the nearest half percent. Can you confirm whether that is right?

(Downthread you provided a link that seems to be to several videos -- I don't know whether one of them would answer these questions, and my German is so poor that I probably couldn't tell by watching them!)
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. ZDF was 33 - 37 exactly (I don't know about the small parties)
ARD had SCGFL: 34-35-8,5-10,5-7,5


ZDF is known for its conservative bias, so that really wasn't a surprise.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. woo hoo! I actually deciphered SCGFL!
I gather that ZDF and ARD both are in the habit of making their projections in half-point increments, which seems reasonable. Here in the U.S., where (generally) the only thing that matters is who gets the most votes, there really aren't numerical projections at all, at least for the public. Traditionally viewers have been left waiting for networks to "call" each state. Now there is the great social innovation of waiting for cnn.com to post some exit poll crosstabulations, which we can then multiply out to estimate the totals. But subsequently... well, whatever we learn, we learn.

Thanks for all the information -- I feel a bit better informed now.
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youngblue Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Thanks for the response
I'm trying to follow all of this stuff and it makes it difficult when I see different exit polls with different results.

I'm trying to figure out what that means for the exit polls here and if this proves that the election here was stolen or not.

I don't understand statistics at all and I really appreciate all the help.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. sorry, much of the thread here is technical
-- not so much statistical, but picky.

I think we can agree that the German exit polls are more accurate than the U.S. exit polls have been.

It is worth noting that in Germany there are multiple exit polls, but in the U.S. that is much less true. (The Los Angeles Times does have its own exit poll, but apparently it interviewed only about 1800 voters outside California.)

And it is worth noting that there is always more than one "exit poll result," so watch out for that.

Pretty much everyone agrees that the results of the 2004 U.S. exit poll are outside the range of random error.

People are all over the map about what they think the U.S. exit poll results prove, but that isn't really a statistical debate. Some people think it is very unlikely that the exit poll could be systematically biased (that Kerry voters could be overrepresented in the poll because they were more likely to participate in the poll -- they were more willing and/or interviewers approached them more often). Other people think it is very likely that the exit poll was biased.

I have a very strong opinion about this issue. I think it's fair to say that many people who have looked at the exit polls aren't convinced that they prove (or disprove) fraud. Beyond that -- we have a lot of work to do, and most of it doesn't have anything to do with the exit polls.
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youngblue Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. Thank you
All of the talk about exit polls has had me pretty confused about what they actually mean. And then when there's a bunch of different polls showing different results, it made it even worse.

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. "if you weren't confused, you weren't paying attention"! n/t
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