Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Lies & Distortions on Election Fraud–Backdoor to Voter Disenfranchisement?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 11:11 AM
Original message
Lies & Distortions on Election Fraud–Backdoor to Voter Disenfranchisement?
It is sometimes good to read books written by those whose political views differ from ours, if for no other reason than to get a better idea of what the political opposition is thinking and saying – which can help in the development of arguments to counteract them. (However, it’s often not easy to do this because so much that is written by right wingers and sold in book stores today is so much garbage that it’s difficult to read it without feeling that it’s a colossal waste of time.)

The book that I will discuss here is titled “Stealing Elections – How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy”, by John Fund. The book is a combination of: 1) Outright distortions, blatant hypocrisy and lies; 2) Information that sounds reasonable on the surface, but which I am not fully competent to judge (but which, based on the distortions and lies that I know of, is probably dangerously misleading information); 3) Maybe some good ideas, I’m not sure.

Probably the best reason for posting this thread is to generate discussion and information on how best to address the arguments made in this book and others like it. Many of us are involved in arguing these issues to our Congressional representatives, and our ability to argue them depends on a full grasp of the issues. Most of the arguments made in this book seem reasonable on the surface. And I assume that most of us could benefit in our election reform efforts from becoming better able to argue these issues.

This guy knows what he’s doing. The Introduction is entitled “Democracy Imperiled”, and after the first page I was very excited about the book. Here is a quote from the first page: “There is still time to reduce the chance of another electoral meltdown … But this will not happen unless we acknowledge that the United States has a haphazard, fraud-prone election system befitting an emerging Third World country rather than the world’s leading democracy”. Sounds like it could have been written by one of us, right? Well, it was all down hill from there.


Hypocrisy to set the tone for the whole book

On page 6, apparently realizing that he’s stepped over the edge, the author writes, “A note about partisanship: Since Democrats figure prominently in the vast majority of examples of election fraud described in this book, some readers will jump to the conclusion that this is a one-sided attack on a single party.” He then gives the standard disclaimer that he doesn’t consider Republicans to be inherently more virtuous than Democrats, claims that he often votes Libertarian or Independent, and then goes on to a lengthy discussion of why Democrats are much more likely to be involved in election fraud than Republicans. It is certainly true that the vast majority of examples in his book involve Democrats, which are prominently noted as such at least 100 times. Republicans may also have occasionally been mentioned in his examples, but if so it’s not clear, because not a single example involving fraud actually identifies anyone as a Republican.


Lies and distortions about the Florida 2000 debacle

He devotes a whole chapter to “The Myth of the Stolen Election”, in which he explains in detail how it was actually the Gore team that was involved in most of the cheating in the 2000 election in Florida. He rebukes Democrats for “playing the racism card” for complaining about the purge of felons from the Florida voter roles, but does not even mention that tens of thousands of these purged “felons” were not felons at all, but simply close computer matches to felons. He claims that under-votes are no more common in precincts characterized by large percentages of poor and minority voters than in other precincts. He claims that complaints of confusion over Palm Beach County’s “butterfly ballot” were faked with the help of a telemarketing firm, and to explain the 19,125 discarded over-votes in Palm Beach County (which in reality included over 15 thousand votes for Gore and less than 4 thousand for Bush) he comes up with this: “I was told by two former law enforcement officers and a poll worker that they believe ballot tampering affected some Bush ballots on election night … Using a nail, pencil or other sharp device, they would take a ballot and punch out Al Gore’s name for president…” There was not a word of evidence for this crap, just a statement by three unidentified persons that this is what they believed happened. There was lots more of this kind of crap in this chapter, but this should suffice.


Dismissing the “conspiracy theories” involving DREs

In a chapter titled “High-Tech Voting”, the first paragraph notes the “biggest collection of conspiracy theories about our national elections centers around DREs …” Fund notes that part of the “paranoia” over this issue has to do with the perception that Walden O’Dell, chairman and CEO of Diebold, is a Republican stooge. He says that this perception was in part created preemptively by Democratic operatives, but he fails to note O’Dell’s infamous quote about his intention to deliver the Ohio vote to Bush in 2004.

Following some more discussion of this issue, Fund then says that former DNC Chairman Joe Andrew “ripped the bark off the ‘black box’ conspiracy theorists” by stating “When it comes to electronic voting, most liberals are just plain old-fashioned nuts”. Fund then says that Andrew goes on to impugn the knowledge of computer experts who are concerned about the potential of DREs to steal elections, and says that the hysteria by the Democratic Party over this issue is politically but not factually motivated. And he quotes Andrews’ conclusion that “it is not possible to move a constant fraction of votes from one party to another in each jurisdiction without it being obvious that something is going on.” That’s it. He dismisses the DRE “conspiracy theories” through the unsubstantiated and unexplained quotes of a single person. What Fund does not note, however, is that Andrew does PR work for Diebold.

Fund also gives an example of where a paper trail could have been used to back up the results of a DRE without even mentioning the fact that most DREs are not backed up with paper trails.

To be fair to Fund I should also note that he then continues with several pages of discussion on glitches that have been reported with various types of DREs (interesting that he uses a fraud neutral term to describe these problems, however).

Then, in the conclusion of the book he does make some suggestions for DREs that sound good to me on the surface, but for which I am not competent to judge their usefulness. These include the following:

“…election authorities should be required to have independent audits conducted of their vote tabulation systems, software and security procedures on a regular basis.”

“Independent, nonpartisan groups … should be authorized to appoint poll watchers to observe the election and vote tabulation process.”

“All vendors who supply voting machines and computer software programs should be required to undergo investigation by competent bodies of the financial solvency, security and integrity of the vendor.”

“… we should phase out central counting stations where punch cards, touch-screen or optical-scan ballots are tabulated, often requiring the ballots to be moved from one location to another before being counted.”

I don’t know how to evaluate the above proposals, especially given that there is no proposal for a paper trail. Perhaps Fund felt that after his brilliant debunking of the DRE “conspiracy theories” nobody would be very interested in the above recommendations anyhow.


Balancing the risk of “voter fraud” against the risk of voter disenfranchisement

From beginning to end, the book is filled with examples voters (all Democrats) casting votes that they should not have been allowed to cast, which Fund obviously considers to be by far the biggest threat to our election systems. In the eight chapters of the book prior to the Conclusion chapter he doesn’t even mention the possibility that over-vigorous efforts to prevent “voter fraud” can lead to voter disenfranchisement. In fact, he never mentions the possibility of voter disenfranchisement period, until in the Conclusion chapter of the book he makes some token remarks to the effect that we must make sure not to take away the right to vote from those who legitimately have that right.

I believe that it is worth while to go into this issue in some detail because voter disenfranchisement is one of the main Republican tricks (as demonstrated in Ohio, 2004), and this is generally accomplished under the guise of aggressive efforts to prevent “voter fraud”.

General issues regarding “voter fraud”
Categories of illegal voters that are repeatedly cited throughout the book include dead people, pets, people who vote more than once in the same election, felons, non-citizens, and people without addresses (several examples are given of this last category, but it is never clear whether these are simply homeless people whom Fund doesn’t think should have the right to vote, or whether there is some more substantive reason why he thinks they shouldn’t be allowed to vote).

Obviously, most of would agree that it is inappropriate for most of the categories listed above to have the right to vote. But a central question should be, “How often does ‘voter fraud’ occur, and how likely are efforts to prevent it from occurring going to cause legal voters to be effectively disenfranchised by putting overly strict conditions on their right to vote?”

I don’t know the answers to those questions, but I think that we should be conversant with this issue when arguing about it, especially to legislators. Despite Fund’s numerous examples of “voter fraud” one doesn’t get a good sense of its prevalence from reading his book, except perhaps by his inability to come up with impressive numbers (though his numbers obviously seem quite impressive to him). For example, he has a whole chapter on voter fraud in St. Louis during the 2000 election. After all the hullabaloo about this terrible disaster he tells us that an investigation of this matter revealed that 68 people had voted twice, and 14 dead people, 114 felons, 79 people without addresses (homeless?), and a pet had voted in this election. And, after a whole chapter dedicated to Democratic machine corruption in Hawaii, the major finding of the election investigation that he describes was of “543 registered voters who may have been improperly or illegally registered”! And he also dedicates a whole chapter to Democratic malfeasance in improperly chasing after the Native American vote on South Dakotan Indian Reservations, including Democratic officials paying them to vote (I have no idea how much validity there is to the claims made in that chapter, but the numbers involved were not much different than in the above noted examples.)

Absentee ballots
Fund devotes a whole chapter to the evils of absentee ballots, concluding that they should only be used when absolutely necessary, and not simply for “convenience”. He gives several trivial (IMO) reasons for not allowing absentee ballots for reasons of “convenience”, including: Voters would have to pay for postage; the ballots are paper and therefore difficult to count; people may change their mind between the time they cast their ballot and election day; and, it negates the communal feeling that people get from voting together.

However, Fund also describes a more substantive problem with absentee ballots, claiming that they are susceptible to fraud. In particular, the process bypasses normal safeguards against ineligible voters getting to vote, and it is possible that some people (especially from old age homes, etc.) may be coerced into voting. I don’t have enough knowledge of this process to effectively combat those arguments.

What to do about long lines on election day
Fund does note long voting lines in a few parts of his book, but only to complain about election officials extending voting hours, so as to enable more people to vote. Never once in all this discussion does he note the possibility that the long lines may be due to insufficient allocation of voting machines, which as we all know is an especially common occurrence in poor and minority precincts, and can result in the loss of tens of thousands of votes. And his main reason for opposing the extending of voting hours is that it represents a rule change, and it facilitates fraud (though how this facilitates fraud was quite unclear to me.)

Other things that facilitate “voter fraud” according to Fund
He is especially hostile to Clinton’s “Motor Voter Law”. He claims that it encourages “voter fraud” by requiring driver’s license bureaus to register anyone (without adequate identification), offers mail-in registration without adequate identification, forbids government workers to challenge new registrants, and makes it difficult to purge “deadwood” voters. I do not know how to evaluate these claims, so it is difficult for me to argue them.

He is adamantly opposed to same day registration, claiming that it encourages “voter fraud” and allows people to get around registration deadlines.

And he makes several complaints about election boards that maintain “inactive voters” on their lists. An inactive voter is simply a registered voter who has not voted in a while. To Fund, purging these voters helps to eliminate voter fraud, but he seems totally unconcerned about the possibility that this practice will cause these so-called “inactive voters” to be disenfranchised should they decide to vote in an especially important election but did not register on time because they were unaware that they had been purged from the voter list.


Conclusion

The types of arguments presented in this book are and will continue to be used by Republicans to attempt to enact election laws that are so aggressively aimed towards preventing voter fraud that I fear they will effectively prevent millions of voters from voting.

Many of these arguments are blatantly false and easily counteracted. But some of them I would be unable to argue effectively against because I don’t fully understand the applicable issues and historical experience. I assume that the same would apply to many of us who would read this book or others like it. In order to most effectively advocate for an election system that will provide the safeguards we need to prevent the disenfranchisement of millions of voters, we need to thoroughly understand the strengths and weaknesses of the arguments that are presented by our political opponents.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Burning Water Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. KIck
One reason we should a) vote in every election, and b)maintain an awareness of our voting registration status. We must be responsible for the maintenance and defense of our own rights, because we can't count on anyone else to do it for us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Unfortunately
There are millions of people in this country who, because they grew up in an environment that was not conducive to learning many of the things that they needed to learn, are much more easily taken advantage of than most of us DUers.

And anyhow, the kinds of things that they did in Ohio in 2004 were so rotten that even I might have lost my right to vote there if I came from a heavily Democratic precinct. Blackwell wanted to disenfranchise people based solely on registration forms submitted on paper that didn't meet his specifications. They sent notices to people, and if the notices weren't returned, they took them off the voting lists. Blackwell used every excuse in the book to disenfranchise Democratic voters, and you can be they'll try it again with whatever excuse they can get away with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
garthranzz Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Recommended
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. Recommended!
Fund is a WSJ editorial board hack.

Ask him why the stock market has gone absolutely nowhere after 5 years of Bush and see what he and the rest of Dow Jones have to say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. What you said.
These seem in line with we want, though. No? :shrug"

Then, in the conclusion of the book he does make some suggestions for DREs that sound good to me on the surface, but for which I am not competent to judge their usefulness. These include the following:

“…election authorities should be required to have independent audits conducted of their vote tabulation systems, software and security procedures on a regular basis.”

“Independent, nonpartisan groups … should be authorized to appoint poll watchers to observe the election and vote tabulation process.”

“All vendors who supply voting machines and computer software programs should be required to undergo investigation by competent bodies of the financial solvency, security and integrity of the vendor.”

“… we should phase out central counting stations where punch cards, touch-screen or optical-scan ballots are tabulated, often requiring the ballots to be moved from one location to another before being counted.”

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. He thinks that making the system honest will benefit
Republicans. That's fine if he does. If the machines are honest, I'll take that chance. The clueless among us must be shown the truth. Now if only we can get him onboard the Voter Veried Paper Ballot train!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. The book seems to me to be like a mud sandwich
On page 1 he notes that our election system is in serious trouble -- good start.

Then most of the pages between page 1 and the concluding section of the book are filled with lies and distortions.

For example, numerous times he complains about Democrats who "play the racist card" when they complain about the targeting of minority groups for registration purges, etc. He never gives any serious consideration to the potentiality or even the known facts where voters from poor precincts are given false information or purged from the voter list without their knowledge, or shorted of voting machines so that the voters (who can't afford to be away from their job) are faced with 8 hour waits, etc. All he talks about are Democratic complaints about these matters that prooved baseless when they were investigated. Then at the end of the book he makes some token comment like, "Of course, we must ensure that all legal voters get to vote". That's like giving credit to Bush because he "wants to bring freedom and Democracy to Iraq" or for noting the value of compassion by referring to himself as a "compassionate conservative".

The situation with the DREs is somewhat similar IMO. He totally trashes the idea that they can be used to steal elections, thereby creating the dangerous impression that we don't need to be very worried about our current situation. My guess is that he did far more damage by doing that than by making the recommendations that he did regarding DREs at the end of the book. But I can't be sure about that.

Of the four recommendations noted above, certainly the first three sound good -- I don't know enough about the subject to comment on the 4th recommendation. Who could argue with those three recommendations. But as far as I know, his recommending these things is meaningless. Maybe this is the equivalent of Bush make a recommendation that we should treat our fellow human beings with compassion. I believe that Fund is just the type of guy to say these things and then lobby against them on the basis of any manufactured excuse he can come up with once they are proposed as legislation.

But I would like to hear comments about this from those who know much more about our election system than I do. Is there any meat to those recommendations, or are they simply the equivalence of recommending motherhood and apple pie?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. I think TFC's point was that he's giving this short shrift though.
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 03:33 PM by Bill Bored
“…election authorities should be required to have independent audits conducted of their vote tabulation systems, software and security procedures on a regular basis.”

By whom? More private corporations, like the state lottery uses, or the guys who audited Enron? He needs to be more specific than this. Maybe he was?

“Independent, nonpartisan groups … should be authorized to appoint poll watchers to observe the election and vote tabulation process.”

You can't observe a vote tabulation "process" if it's in a proprietary computer system and it takes a full day of voting, or weeks of early voting, to complete it (not to mention the secret ballot). You could have transparent aggregation of precinct totals, and the DNC has already suggested this but Fund sounds like a tyro when it comes to this issue.

“All vendors who supply voting machines and computer software programs should be required to undergo investigation by competent bodies of the financial solvency, security and integrity of the vendor.”

So if JP Morgan Chase buys some fly by night company that makes voting machines, do they qualify?

“… we should phase out central counting stations where punch cards, touch-screen or optical-scan ballots are tabulated, often requiring the ballots to be moved from one location to another before being counted.”

Agreed. See transparent aggregation of precinct totals above.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Yes, exactly -- thank you for the clarification Bill
Can you tell me what you mean by "transparent aggregation of precinct totals above"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. See chapter VIII of the DNC Ohio report. nt
Edited on Mon Oct-24-05 02:44 PM by Bill Bored
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Thank you for kicking this onto the greatest page Bill
I would have been disappointed if this hadn't gotten some additional exposure, because I think that it is a very important issue that needs a lot of discussion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. I will address voter fraud, homeless voting and same day registration.
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 08:15 AM by wildeyed
There is a big push in this country by repubs to require picture ID to vote. Many people, dems included, think that this is no biggie. Doesn't everyone have ID? The answer is no, 10% of the population does not have a picture ID. Many of those without ID are poor and/or elderly. People without ID are also disproportionately from minority groups who typically vote democratic. It costs money to get a picture ID, so this law is, by default, a poll tax.

This is very important: There is no proof of any wide spread voter fraud that this law could address. Repubs will site individual cases of fraud, or allegations of fraud, but they have no proof of any actual, concerted effort by dems or anyone else to cheat like this. So repubs want to create a huge amount of bureaucracy and disenfranchise a large number of voters to remedy a problem that doesn't exist.

The real truth is, there are so many non-voting dems out there, it is easier and safer to simply do vigorous voter outreach and get legit voters to the polls than it is to cheat. And repubs known this and want to stop it.

Homeless voting is an interesting area. A group I volunteer with registered 400 homeless voters during the last election cycle. The homeless registrations are now being challenged by a local wingnut politician. The basis for his challenge, you are required to put a home address on your registration, and the homeless people didn't. :eyes: The dems won a few hotly contested local elections in my community, and the repugs can't get over it. Since they are sore losers, instead of accepting their defeat gracefully, as the will of the people, they are picking vulnerable groups of citizens and trying to disenfranchise them. Here is a link to a news story. http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/local_news/?ArID=103933&SecID=2

Also note this, with heating and gas bills being so high this winter, the ranks of the homeless will swell. This area of voting rights will become larger even more important as the economy worsens.

Finally, there is no evidence that Same Day Registration increases fraud. Repubs make this allegation, but there is zero proof. They just don't like it 'cause same day registration has increased voter turnout by almost 10% in states that have it. To be fair, some dems don't like it either because it increases the opportunity for third party candidates to win.

I am working hard to get a same day registration law passed in my state. For me, the legislation offers the opportunity to increase voter turnout and to empower voters who would typically not have a voice in government. I also think it is the first step in eliminating the two party system which I believe is strangling our country. Here is a link to info on same day registration http://www.demos-usa.org/page52.cfm. And here is a link to the legislation that is being contemplating in NC (if you are from NC, please sign the resolution!). http://www.democracy-nc.org/improving/samedayreg.html

If you have a dem governor and/or state legislature, this type of legislation might have a chance in your area. Look into it and support the groups that are trying to get it passed. OR start a movement of your own :)

Thank you, Time for change, for posting this interesting analysis. May I suggest that you post it as an Amazon review, too? I looked the book up there, and it is getting some high praise. Might be nice to give prospective readers another opinion :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Thank you, these are great points!
I will definitely post it as an Amazon review, great idea.

Just curious -- how would you address the point made by poster # 1 -- actually, many of the points that you made address it, but I was just wondering if you had anything additional to say regarding that particular post?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I am not 100% sure what the poster is saying.
I agree that we have to safeguard our rights, not take them for granted. And those of us with the awareness, time and resources need to look out for our brethren who lack these amenities.

And absolutely, vote in EVERY election. Locals are coming up. We have school board and city council in my city plus some huge bond referendums. Only 25% of the eligible voters will vote. But what could be more important to your day-to-day life than things like the quality of schools, road repairs and police protection? All of these things will be addressed in my city this election cycle. And the few of us who bother to participate will decide for everyone how our city and schools will be run for the next two years :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. And the picture ID requirement will also obfuscate the issue of fraud
because the systematic advantage republicans will have can be plausibly attributed to disenfranchisement via picture ID requirements, creating a whole population of even Democratic activists who will ignore fraud issues and attribute all to picture iD.

Fact is, multiple causation is the usual rule in nature and politics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spurt Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. It is not a partisan issue.
It doesn't matter who did worse or more dastardly deeds. What matters is the system is broken.

There has been evidence of electoral fraud on both sides of the government, and both sides know it has happened. Yet neither side has cleaned it up therefore both are complicit.

The issue with electoral system failure is between the people and the government - not right versus left. Both sides need to come to terms with that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Of course that is true
But are you saying that you don't see anything dangerous in this book? I certainly agree with everything that Fund says on page 1 of the book. Our election system needs fixing, and both Democrats and Republicans should come together on that.

But it is the details of how to do that that matter. There are numerous examples in the book, but to bring up one of the most obvious ones, he repeatedly voices his outrage that people without addresses get to vote. He never even mentions the possibility that many or perhaps the vast majority of these people meet all requirements for voting except that they don't own a home. It reminds me of the fact that when our "democracy" first began, under the premise that "all men are created equal", women, non-whites, and anyone who didn't own property couldn't vote. I'm sure that Fund would be perfectly happy to take away the vote from the homeless, or from anyone else who is likely to vote Democratic for that matter.

And perhaps his implication that a paper trail is not needed for DRE machines, along with his stupid assurances that DREs can't be used to steal elections (but extending voting hours for those who are otherwise unable to vote facilitates fraud that can turn an election around) is the most dangerous part of this book of all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spurt Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. I never meant to...
...pass direct judgement on the book at all.

Not having read the book (and not likely to) I accept your assessment of it, but decline to pass judgement.

I believe that there are vast and widely varied problems with the voting system today. Some or all of those quoted in the book, and more besides. I consider that to be an issue for every voter equally, regardless of partisanship. The grassroots left can argue with the right for eternity, and nothing will change. The entire government (left & right) will sail on, each using or abusing the system to their own advantage and still leave the population ill served. Effective change will only occur when the people collectively demand it of the government.
The system has been broken for many years yet no politicians have fixed it. I have no faith that they are going to any time soon.

As to the DRE's, I am absolutely convinced that with or without paper they are untrustworthy.
I am adamant that pen on paper ballots, hand counted at the precinct is the only acceptable option.
Lose all the machines. They are unnecesary, expensive, unreliable and untrustworthy.

Cheers
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Please do remember that we have one major argument that is not harm-based
We have one major argument that is not harm-based (i.e. premised on the notion that the wrong that has occurred has distorted the RESULTS of the election). That is the SECRET VOTE COUNTING argument. Secrecy in counting is wrong regardless of the purportedly "Correct" results.

NOT ONLY THAT, I CAN'T FIND A REPUBLICAN THAT DISAGREES WITH ME SO I REALLY HOPE TIME FOR CHANGE WILL HAMMER ON THIS IN AN AMAZON REVIEW.

With any harm-based argument, you struggle with the following dilemma:
(1) First, there is a claim of NO EVIDENCE.
(2) Then if you get some evidence, IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO CHANGE THE RESULT.
(3) Finally, if you have enough evidence to change the result YOU ARE A PARTISAN HACK FULL OF SOUR GRAPES AND A SORE LOSERMAN.

In addition, if you have enough evidence to change a result but any part of your argument consists of educated guesses about what is held secret by the government or corporations, then YOU ARE A CONSPIRACY THEORIST.

Theory is necessarily implicated whenever secrecy is created, for those outside the walls of secrecy. But, we can simply object to the secrecy and ask, if they are merely implementing the laws of addition, why is the vote counting secret?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Very good points Landshark
I think that for my Amazon review I would rather cut and paste from this OP.

Your points about secret vote counting are crucial, but I would urge you to make them in a separate review, so that way we would have two reviews instead of one. But if you would not feel comfortable doing that, having not read the book, let me know and I will do it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. On further reflection I think that you are right
I will include this issue in my book review.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thank you for a detailed look at this counter-attack strategy they have.
It's all about muddying up the waters, so good people in the middle will throw their hands up and say, "Ah, it happens on both sides."

:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Actually, it is even worse than that
Funds idea is not to say "Ah, it happens on both sides". He goes to the extreme of proposing that election fraud is almost solely confined to Democrats -- though he is too much of a hypocrite to acknowledge that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. You're right. And beyond that, the "remedies" they therefore propound
will end up disenfranchising even more Democratic voters, through poll-tax type measures such as the photo ID requirement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Exactly -- see post # 25 for the review I just submitted to Amazon
It makes the points you mention above.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
24. We should never let anyone forget that the biggest election fraud
was perpetrated by the SCOTUS. By any chad count, Gore won Florida, with the ballots they had, not counting any voter disenfranchisement or backdoor software patches.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/Print/111201a.html

While I'm sure Mr. Fund would love nothing more than to ignore this fact, it is available for all to see. A footnote in history, obscured by September 11th.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
25. I just submitted this review to Amazon
This book is nothing but a shameful and disguised attempt (notwithstanding the denials) to discredit Democratic voters and to advocate the enactment of “election reform” laws that will disenfranchise voters, while at the same time ignore and dismiss the greatest threat to our democracy today – the privatization of our elections with corporate owned electronic voting machines that count our votes using secret software and leave no paper trail for auditing them. To be more specific:

The book is filled with purported examples of illegal voters, ignoring the fact that this problem accounts for a small minority of election fraud in our country today. To remedy this problem, Fund advocates several measures that will do little to remedy the problem, while disenfranchising millions of voters, mostly those who are poor or non-white and most likely to vote Democratic. Here are just three examples, among the many cited in Funds book: 1) Disallowing homeless people to vote because they don’t have a proper address; 2) Requiring a picture ID to vote – which 10% of the population lack, and which amounts to a poll tax for the poor; 3) Abolishing the extending of voting hours in situations where insufficient allocation of voting machines results in as long as 10 hour waits to vote (again, this is a problem faced mainly in poor and minority neighborhoods).

But whereas Fund is so concerned that an occasional illegal voter may slip through the cracks in our system, when it comes to electronic voting machines that count our votes using secret software, although admitting that mistakes are sometimes made, he claims that these machines cannot be used to steal elections. To prove this point he does nothing more than quote a man who works as a PR consultant for Diebold – although Fund is Careful not to mention this fact.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Thx for the digest ...
(jus got round to reading this) ..and taking on the issues at Amazon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Nice! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. As you can see, I used some of the information you gave us
Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sunshinekathy Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. Century Foundation research has debunked John Fund already
Check out the recent work of the Century Foundation.

Their research has shown that voter fraud is a nonproblem.

They put out a little book - I think it may cost $12 to have them ship it to you.

Also, the Washington state recount, where both Repubs and Dems did an exhaustive state-wide search to find illegal voters - Dems in Republican counties and Repubs in Democratic counties (the Repubs started this sillyness) found only about 5 felons who had voted by mistake, thinking they were allowed to. There were no other illegal voters in the entire state!

The only place which has substantial double-voters was Washington DC where they found 300 double registered voters (that is legal - no one is required to un-register when they move) and 30 people who voted in both MD and Washington DC (and wouldn't we too if we lived in Washington DC?)

So except for Washington DC where they don't have a vote, fewer than a handful of illegal voters have been found in any state.

Kathy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Hand count the DAMN ballots and
we won't have to worry about what book is right or wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. This book was very much against hand counts of paper ballots
I think it's important to worry about books like this, because by spreading false information they lesson our chances for meaningful election reform, especially doing something about the DRE problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Yeah, kster that's a good rallying call, but hand counted paper ballots
are not enough unless coupled with appropriate administrative procedures that are recognized as thorough checks and balances and (most important of all in the end) an ATTITUDE by elections officials of taking all threats seriously and also respecting all rights to vote seriously.

the best system will be wasted by people with the wrong attitude.

GOOD ELECTIONS SYSTEM: creates evidence and witnesses when compromised, public control, gives LOW PAYOFF for a given election crime or irregularity

BAD SYSTEML: creates little or no evidence or witnesses, has high potential payoff, insider control, HIGH PAYOFF per irregularity or election crime.

One of these represents electronic voting and another represents hand counted paper ballots provided the checks and balances are in place to create an HCPB **system**.

On hearing a bad story about HCPB: Note the low payoff. In high payoff situations which are rare with HCPB it's usually the lack of administrative controls and balances that are supposed to be with te Australian ballot system, as adapted in US best practices. (not the fault of the paper ballot itself)

Expect there to be irregularities in all systems. We have a hundred million motiviated and biased folks, and some of them will try....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Hand Count Paper Ballots
Everyone says if only Kerry didn't concede things would have been different.

Lets assume TIA is correct and Kerry had the majority of votes.

Lets assume Kerry had 60% to * 40%

Lets say our government is just plain stupid and FORGOT to put any checks and balances in place for the election.

OPTIONS: 1 and 2

1)Lets say the country voted on paper ballots and they started counting them by hand during the count the media at 1:41 am while we where still counting came in and said * won.

OR

2)Lets say we voted electronically and we had machines counting and tabulating our ballots and the media at 1:41 am said * won.

If Kerry decided to fight the media and we were using option one we could have secured the ballots.

If Kerry decided to fight the media while we were using using option two, Well you saw what happened to Gore, that would have happened to Kerry.

With or without checks and balances number one is the best option. I believe, because we have something to secure, that the average American understands.









Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. There was a paper trail in Ohio for 82 out of 88 counties
Edited on Tue Oct-25-05 09:15 AM by Time for change
Those 82 counties could have been re-counted. A recount was ordered, but there were numerous maneuvres by election officials and Triad officials to make sure that a full recount never occurred. It could still be done, and it should be done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. This is very important information
Thank you Kathy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC