Have any counties gone from machines back to paper ballots?

[GuvWurld]

Does anybody know if any county anywhere has made this transition? For that matter, is there a list of counties, if any, conducting elections by hand counting paper ballots?

[applegrove]

1. I think with budgets strapped the Bush WH and tax cuts for the rich -

the States are in such a cash crunch that they don't have the luxury. You Americans have questions on your ballots, you elect judges and all sorts of people. You have elections every two years. Going with computer will save millions. Millions the States need desperately.

In Canada we have paper ballots but there is only one question: who do you want to represent your 'district'. We don't vote for anyone else. Just our local member or parliament. And elections are usually about 5 years apart. So we can do paper ballots easily.

The issue should be how to give a paper trail or such.

[nofurylike]

2. vice versa. it's the machines we couldn't afford. "going with computer

will" put an end to elections once and for all.

has already, it would seem, since we haven't managed to stop the machines from spreading.


peace.

*edit spelling

[applegrove]

5. There is just as much evidence that the elections were stolen

by faulty exit polls. Which made Kerry the winner between 2PM and 8PM on election day. Funny how that is the only time he was way out in front like that!

There are 49 ways GOP steals hearts & minds & elections. Don't sit on one idea until there is proof. So far the only proof is that too few machines were in heavily dem districts. And that the machines when tested could be fooled with. Votes being stolen by diebold in a massive way is just speculation right now.

My point is that if you go with machines that have a paper trail - you save millions and you know they are not being fooled with. And with medicaid & poor & needy being hit with budget cuts - States have to not throw money around.

[Wilms]

6. Wrong forum.

Not sure what forum you should post that in, but this is the wrong forum.

I'm glad you are concerned with "medicaid & poor & needy being hit with budget cuts".

We're working on the Election Management System, here, whether or not the '04 was stolen.

[applegrove]

7. My point that in the USA you vote on judges & attorney generals &

President & primaries & congressmen & senators is not an issue in how elections are managed?

Really - I've worked elections in Canada. People walk into schools and place an X beside one person in a list of 5. And fold the ballot - walk it to a cardboard box (monitored by people from the federal government & all parties). When the polls close - the boxes are opened and in 10 minutes all the ballots are counted (with 4 people looking over the shoulder of the person counting). Then results are called in.

You don't have that option in the USA.

Your elections are more complicated.

And so much more expensive.



I do wonder how you are going to handle the issue of not enough machines in heavily democratic districts. How will you call for the right number of machines per population when you don't believe in them at all? Cause that is a well documented way that people were stopped from voting. Many went home.

People like Karl Rove work in percentages. That few percentage that stay home because they are apathetic and don't believe in machines or have to wait too long in lines - those are the percentages that Karl Rove wins by.

A few % here, a few % there, "GAY is Bad" % here, and there, and overthere some people stayed home because unlike all the other polls before and after the election... Kerry was way out in front from 2PM until 8PM election day.

Fact is governance is about choices. All these forums do mix and play off each other. To say that one has nothing to do with another is unfair and untrue.

[Wilms]

8. I suggested it is the wrong forum because it's more polite.

Telling someone to go play in traffic, isn't. So I refrained.

You come here often to tell us we're wasting our time, and worse, with our advocacy of a trustworthy election management system.

Go play in traffic.

[applegrove]

9. No - I never said you were wasting your time. I said there were

costs states bore with the old fashioned voting system. And the choice was to forgo something else if you don't make elections more efficient.

I agree whole-heartedly in transparency in elections and paper-trails. In software that is secure. In all manner of getting people to have good & real & verifiable reasons to trust elections - because these new machines should be absolutely secure and accurate and safe. That is the very least that any government owes you. First and foremost.

As an American Citizen you have a right to know that. And to not have fear stirred by creepy GOOPS.

Anyway - Peace

[Wilms]

12. Well you got it wrong.

While often due to ignorance, the means by which most counties and states are implementing HAVA is costing taxpayers MORE to do an election.

But don't trouble yourself over such details.

[applegrove]

13. What are the cost benefits? Over time. I mean - assuming the

transparency issue can be solved and will be demanded.

And those machines will be used for all sorts of elections.

[Wilms]

15. Either you didn't understand my post or I don't understand yours.

The electronic voting machines COST MORE...be it over the short, or long term.

[nofurylike]

18. wait. do you work for a voting machine company? must. eom

[applegrove]

21. No. I just think polls not matching elections results could be wrong.

And would have kept people home.

We don't exactly know why the polls were so off.

[nofurylike]

26. we won by a huge margin, especially considering against an

incumbent.
poeple turned out to vote.
robbed.

peace

[applegrove]

28. 35% didn't bother to vote. There is a whole pile of Americans who

do not bother.

Don't teach apathy. Teach activism. Teach options.

[kster]

29. Ya thats it.....nt

[nofurylike]

31. excuse me, but why not start your own thread about why 35% do

not vote, and how to change that? it is a very important question.

but to keep saying that here...

this is about how to not have whatever number of votes there are, stolen.

recognizing and fighting disenfranchisement is not apathy.
recognizing the reality of election fraud, and not trusting an unsecure system is not apathy.

fighting for a fair voting system IS activism!


peace

[applegrove]

32. Peace. But we need to be tolerant of alternative views. Cause

come election time you will be working side by side with mods and trying to convince moderates to vote.

Sorry.

[nofurylike]

34. argumentative. please re-read my comment you reply to here.

i suggested you post a new thread expressly because what you discuss is an important question.

the rest, i hope you care to hear.


peace

[applegrove]

35. I'm not being argumentative. I'm not. Votes will be stolen all sorts

of ways. Apathy is one. So too is too few machines in dem ridings (where machines are how the state goes). These are important issues. How are we going to handle that one.

How are we going to keep from excluding moderates in our discussions when they are the ones whose votes we need the most. Come election time?

How do we manage all the ways votes could be lost. Cause one thing for sure - with people like the political arm of the GOP - winning votes is half of what they do. Take votes is the other half.

[nofurylike]

37. off topic. eom

[nofurylike]

17. they stole it many ways. but "paper trail" will not work. if the paper

ballot is not the official vote counted on record, and the only use for the paper is in re-counts, then check out the record for GETTING the re-counts that we deserved, in the past. it costs huge money of the candidate requesting it, and most often just doesn't happen.
when it does, it is all the same effort as doing it paper from the start.

if they gave a f--k about poor and needy, then feeding the machine companies sure wouldn't have been their number one priority, now would it?

we had no right to WASTE BILLIONS on those thieving machines!!! and they KNEW THAT!!!


peace

[applegrove]

23. I'll agree that the "new technology", even before weird election results,

would have garnered an expected amount of fear. I do believe the GOP uses that fear to divide us and make some voters apathetic.

Sure some defaulted improperly. Sure the GOP is pushing the computers.

But a paper trail that spit out the results of a vote at the time and made a record for re-counting (perhaps a system verified by experts as to its veracity) would go a long way towards getting rid of that fear.

So you and I, who have different fears on this issue, would be able to work together.

How you gonna solve the issue of "too few machines" in some heavily democratic districts - if we cannot even talk about it here? (I mean you & I figuratively). Because we KNOW that some dems went home or didn't bother to vote when they saw, or heard the lines were too long.

What is the solution that can happen and that will make us feel better.

Cause trust me - making dems apathetic so they stay home and don't vote .. works just as great for them (GOP) as stealing a vote by machine.

And the exit polls were off in districts with no diebold (or any other) machines.

So there is a problem with the polls. We don't know what. I say tomato.. There is a problem with too few machines in some heavily dem districts. There is a problem of apathy. There is a problem of "over-optimistic polls" keeping Kerry voters home at the end of the day. There is a problem of distrust of the machines. There is a problem with the other 49 ways the GOP has shown to fans of - re: goofing elections.

So why we gonna concentrate on just one. And the one that, as of yet, has no smoking gun. To the effect that we ignore things 1 through 49 that we have proof of that the GOP machine will do?

Of course the GOP is pushing machines. They are a way for private corporations to make money on elections. They could be argued to save money in the long run. And they divide us progressives from us moderates.

I'm saying - why fight this and ignore so much else.

What if it is a well planned red herring?

Ever heard the MSM report on the "funny poll results" for Kerry on that day? No? Why? Because they hired the firms that did the polling and paid them and then reported the faulty results. Hell - if I had done half of that and it kept even 2% of Kerry supporters home from voting on that day, I wouldn't report it either.

I'm just saying "don't get tunnel vision".

Don't focus on your worst fears to the cost of all else in the fight. Especially when there is not yet a smoking gun.

[nofurylike]

24. because they steal with the tabulators, too.

fact: if not hand-counted paper ballots, counted in full view of witnesses, then why SHOULD anyone go vote? it is not apathy, it is despair.


peace

[applegrove]

27. 70 Million Americans didn't vote last time. Part of that was Kerry

exit polls too high.

Let's say we do it again. Only this time tell people not to bother voting because you happen to know that their particular vote will be stolen.

[nofurylike]

30. but it will be.

and they'd never recovered from it in 2000 and 2002.

now, if you were discussing what would get that other 35% out to vote, that would be something else. but there was a huge margin of victory stolen. the more who voted, the more votes would have been stolen. there would have been even more twelve-hour waits to never get to vote.

the point in telling people their vote has been, and will again be, stolen, is to get them to do something to stop that. and THAT is wht this IS about. people need to demand hand-counted paper ballots as the count of first record.

you advocate NOT telling them, so they'll vote...

so their vote will be stolen anyway......

[applegrove]

33. I'm saying that you should not teach apathy. Cause there is no proof

a single vote got stolen by machine. And you cannot say where it would happen. Cause it is purely speculation.

So are you gonna fight to put the right number of machines in heavily Dem districts that use the machines? Or will you fight it. Cause I can GUARANTEE YOU that Dem votes will be lost if too few machines show up in some Ohio Dem districts or polls.

[nofurylike]

36. the right number of proved-hackable machines? no.

i will not be replying again, so please do not comment expecting a reply from me. i have realized that you have no intention of considering what i give the time and effort to say.


bye.

[applegrove]

38. Yes - the machines have been proved hackable. But not hacked.

Where people did loose their Dem vote because of not enough machines.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I am saying these assholes in the GOP manipulate us coming and going. They'll cause a fear and then manipulate that and then get mods to judge you on that.

Not wanting hackable machines & transparency is something we should fight for. It is just not something we may vainquish in the next few months. So we will have to go with what we got. And I can guarantee that if enough machines are not in predominantly dem districts & polls - like happened in some places in ohio - then votes will be lost. Maybe 2%. And that is what we know. And it matters.

[izzie]

3. No money in paper I would say.

You would think the Printers and paper co. would buy some one on K-Street like I am sure die-bolt did.Is that Sp. right?

[Stevepol]

4. What about the whole state of Maryland? Check out Bradblog.

[GuvWurld]

10. Before this thread goes further off the tracks...

I would like to provide the reason for my question...I have tried this in various ways before but I have yet to get the help I need...so let me be straightforward...I would like to develop a proposal to deliver to my county supervisors...it would really only be an outline, not exceedingly detailed...the points would indicate steps necessary to transition from where we stand today, in preparation for our June primary, to using hand counted paper ballots for that same upcoming election...I'm not convinced that they'll go for it but I do think that we stand a stronger chance of persuading them if we make it as easy as possible to say yes...I believe we have all the info we need to make a compelling case not to continue on our current path but this isn't sufficient because they feel like they have no alternative...so, the goal is an outline of the steps we'd have to take between now and June in terms of logistics and costs...I thought it would be helpful to talk to people in any county where this has happened but I'm optimistic that DUers in this forum can provide good help too...what say you?...is this a project this board can tackle?...if we work together, it will be applicable to more counties than just mine.

[Wilms]

11. These guys might be a start.

http://www.electiondataservices.com/home.htm

According to this survey...

(.pdf)
http://www.electiondataservices.com/EDSInc_VEStudy2006.pdf

176 counties will Hand-Count in 2006.

[GuvWurld]

14. Thanks Wilms

your not-so-secret admirer

[Wilms]

16. That's one for the mutual admiration society!

;)

[nofurylike]

19. thank you for this very important information, Wilms. eom

[GuvWurld]

22. Factoids from above links

The second link Wilms posted above is a document accessed at the first link above. The first is a website for Election Data Services. I didn't really see anything there that I thought was useful. But I did pull the following factoids from the .pdf.

http://www.electiondataservices.com/EDSInc_VEStudy2006.pdf

This year, 653,704 registered voters across 176 counties will have an opportunity to vote using paper ballots.

Average number of voters per county is 3714.

"...slightly more than one-quarter of election jurisdictions in the U.S. use hand counted paper ballots."

These are nice background points that can help in the persuasion but ultimately what we should be striving to create here is a tactical checklist of the things that have to happen from the time the idea is approved through election day, and probably beyond, in certain respects.

[Wilms]

25. This article doesn't talk about hand count costs, but of costs, otherwise.

I actually don't know the arguments about paper being fraud-prone. Nor am I sure if there is an issue with the count itself (rather than, say, the collection process.) But the article states:

"With paper ballots, new ones needed to be supplied for each election. Counting of ballots was very slow, there were a myriad of possibilities for fraud, and there were disputes about “intent of the voter.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x413113

[JimDandy]

39. I'm in -- Action is always better than reaction-- Anyone else?

Guv, can you provide us with what exists in your county now, so we have a starting point to move away from. For example, do you have copies of the election office's current election procedures manual (the procedures the employees in the office follow)and their "count-down-to-election-day-timeline?"

[GuvWurld]

40. Welcome to DU JimDandy

Thanks for jumping in where the action is :hi:

We have Diebold OS, so we're optical scan with GEMS doing central tabulation. Click here (.pdf) for a CA voting system by county chart.

I don't have the procedures manual or countdown checklist.

As an aside, one of my colleagues recently inquired through the county, the elections department, and the clerk/recorder's office (registrar of voters) in search of a job description. How would any potential candidate decide if he/she wanted to run for the office? How could the office holder's performance be judged without a job description for a baseline? Apparently few if any of our top county positions come with such instructions.

You will also want to know that last spring our elections department proposed and our county supes approved the purchase of one Diebold TSx machine per precinct in order to maintain "minimal compliance" with HAVA. This has all been contingent on the certification. Clearly we are trying to make them second guess and re-think this. If a chance even still exists, it is very soon that we will be upon our last ditch opportunity to make the pitch for hcpb.

I'll see what I can do about a manual and checklist but let's go forward assuming they don't exist.

[JimDandy]

41. Thanks GuvWurld!

I'm working on it. Will get back to you in the morning with some ideas.

JD

[JimDandy]

42. GuvWurld, I will have a response to your request soon.

Real life intervened yesterday and I couldn't get back to you then. Now, I'm just waiting for an answer from the forum administrator re the following:

"I will be posting a response to a GuvWurld request on the elections forum that might violate your
rules about posting info that could identify a forum member. I've had to use examples that, while
not identifying his county of residence by name, make it easy for anyone to google my remarks and
subsequently find out his county of residence. It is unavoidable though, because these instances
are necessary, in order to adequately respond to his request."



"Can I go ahead and post this? GuvWurld is so well known that I suspect most people know who is
and where he is from anyway."

---------------------------

If I can, you'll see my post soon. Otherwise I'll change my response enough so that I can post it.

JD

[GuvWurld]

43. thanks JD

wow, "so well known" - that's flattering

but in reality I have posted my real name and location many times so I'm not concerned about that info coming out again.

if you are unsure or want to really play it safe, PM me with what you'd like to post and if there's anything that shouldn't be public I'll tell you

thanks for your help, and your sensitivity to privacy

[JimDandy]

44. GuvWurld Plan -- Transitioning from Diebold Op Scan to HCPBs

GuvWurld, I don't have PM privileges yet or I would. Since you don't have to be concerned about your privacy anymore, I won't wait to hear back from Skinner.

The following is the start of a very general "How To" for developing an "HCPB Voting System Implementation Plan." It's written so that a beginner elections activist could follow it. I didn't go into much detail, in case this was not what you're looking for. If it's not, feel free to steer me in the right direction and I'll try again.

JD
------------------------------------------------------------

Develop an "HCPB Voting System Implementation Plan"
This is my understanding of what you want: "...the goal is (to develop) an outline (to deliver to my county supervisors) of the steps we'd have to take between now and June in terms of logistics and costs..." to move from a Diebold Op Scan system to a Hand-Counted Paper Ballot system.

It sounds like you want to quickly develop what's called a 'voting system implementation plan' for HCPBs. You deserve a commendation for attempting such a task in the short time you have. Let's see if we DUers (I'm new, but I'm definitely DU!) can help get you there!

Because you will need to address ballot printing in your plan anyway, in my "How To..." below I've used that as the running example to get my points across.

Identify Your County's Current Major Commitments
First of all, you'll need to find out where your county is in their election's process. It is especially important to determine if they have signed any contracts already. For instance, has your county already contracted with a printer to produce the paper ballots for the op scans? (Last year they contracted with Sequoia Voting Systems' Pro Document Solutions printing facility in Porterville.) If so, the county is stuck. In that case, use those op scan ballots for your HCPB system. In your plan, present that solution to your county elections office as a viable segway to implementing an HCPB voting system.

If not, I'd suggest you continue to use their ballot printing company. They will be familiar with the county's election process and should be very motivated to retain their ballot printing revenue -- you would have a ready-made ally. The advantage, to the printing company, of having an HCPB system is that they retain most of the revenue they would have had from the op scan system, while eliminating most of the hassles of that system: i.e. programming the ballot templates for the op scan machines, scanner alignment problems and scanner reading problems. This lessens their exposure to blame for election problems, too. (There's lots of finger-pointing in elections when it becomes blame time for election errors or failures. For op scan errors, the equipment manufacturers nearly always put the blame on the election workers and the county, in turn, will often look to the printer when faced with a ballot counting problem.)

Find the Name of Your County's Ballot Printing Company
You've said you're already running into problems obtaining information and records from your elections offices (You're in good company with the rest of us activists.) There are ways around them for your current needs, though. If the Elections Department won't tell you who their printer is, call County Purchasing -- they should have the printing contract on file. Running into resistance with them, too? Call the County's I.T. Department. If your county is large enough, the I.T. Dept will be involved in the op scan programming process and would then undoubtedly know the name of the printer. Referred back to elections department because it's an 'elections matter'? Ask the County Assessors Office to see the 'line-item budget' for the Elections Department. Payments made to the printing company should be there along with their name. Budget not broken down that finely? Search your county's online Board of Supervisors meeting minutes. They have to approve the ballot printing contract. The county contract number should be in the minutes, even if the name of the printer is not. Take that number to the County Purchasing Office and insist on viewing the contract. Contract not mentioned in the minutes? Call each of the ballot manufacturing companies and ask them if they are the contractor for your county. CA Elections Code Section 20220 states that ballot printing vendors must be certified by CA's SoS. The SoS has certified only five, so far.

The point is to never get discouraged when you encounter stumbling blocks while developing your plan; there will probably be several ways to get around every one of them.

Study Your County's Most Recent 'Voting System Implementation Plan'
After your county awarded it's voting equipment contract to Diebold for their OS system, they should have developed a detailed 'new voting system implementation plan.' Their plan will have addressed many of the same items you will need to address in your plan -- Items such as: total cost of conversion to the new system over a certain period of years, impact of that cost on the county budget; supplies needed; employee and poll worker training; system security and programming; delivery of voting equipment and supplies to polling places and their return; accumulation and tabulation of vote counts; and procedures for canvassing, auditing, recounting and certifying the vote counts. Their plan will also have had to take into account California election laws, administrative election rules and county election ordinances.

Studying their plan will help you identify, among other things:
1. the items your county elections department and county supervisors are most concerned about. Those will probably be the items they focused on the most in their plan.
2. those laws, rules and ordinances you also will need to address in your plan.

Tips for Writing Your Plan
1. Pattern your plan after theirs, using the same format and parallel constructions. This should make it easier for you to explain your plan to the county, because they already will be familiar with its layout.
2. It will also help you ensure that, when comparing the two plans, you compared apples to apples and oranges to orange. This is especially important when it comes to cost comparisons. For example, your county is required to print ballots for at least 80% of its registered voters. Lets say the ballot printing cost stated in the county's plan was based on that 80% figure. Knowing that, you should base your ballot printing cost on that same percentage, instead of listing what it would cost to print ballots for every registered voter.

My County Doesn't Have a Voting System Implementation Plan. Now what?
What if your county is so small that they never had money in their budget to write a formal voting system implementation plan? See if you can't locate another county in your state that has one. It's important that the plan come from a county in your state, because they have to at least follow the same state laws as your county does. It would also be ideal if they used the same voting system as your county does. Other counties in California that have the same voting system (Diebold OS and no early voting) as your county does are: Fresno, Kern, Lassen, Mendocino, Modoc, San Diego, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Siskiyou and Tulare. Of those that developed a plan, choose a county that most closely resembles yours in number of registered voters, size of county budget, geographical size etc. This will enable you to make the most accurate comparison possible.

Etcetera, Etcetera

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are many other issues, details and intervening steps that I left out of this "How To..."

[GuvWurld]

45. This is freakin' awesome

This is what I meant for this thread (and a few previous flops) to be. We need to start a new thread with your post so that everyone else will add on from this new starting point. Can you start threads yet? If not, may I use your material to do so, with proper credit of course?

Also, I have to ask even though you don't have to answer...how do you know all this stuff? We have many very visible people on this board because the nature of our work here causes us to create media attention. It is always useful to know the credentials of posters who are bringing us some of our biggest and best ideas. You, JimDandy, are off to an excellent start. Are you able introduce yourself in any way?

[JimDandy]

47. Thanks for the good words!

"Can you start threads yet? If not, may I use your material to do so,..."

I'm too new here to start threads, so you go right ahead.

"how do you know all this stuff?"

I'm an elections activist that learned as I went along, so I don't have any credentials of the type you hang on the wall or around your neck. Feel free to check up on this info and, if you find it accurate, use it in whatever way you want!

"Are you able introduce yourself in any way?"

I'm sort of an information broker -- I obtain documents for others who either don't want to be identified or don't know how to obtain the info they need. In the past, I've found that being credited as a source made it more difficult to continue to obtain info for others, so I can't introduce myself.

JD

[GuvWurld]

48. New thread started based on your work

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=413720&mesg_id=413720

For anyone who cares at all about seeing your county switch to hand counted paper ballots, please contribute to this new thread, dubbed a "working thread," as we have a great starting point with much more collaborative work ahead.

Thanks again JimDandy.

:yourock:

[GuvWurld]

49. New thread still needs one more nomination for greatest

Please go to this thread and recommend

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=413720&mesg_id=413720

[Wilms]

46. Uh. Thanks!

:wow:

[nofurylike]

20. commendable mission! thank you for this thread, GuvWurld!

informative, and inspirational to others of us looking for the same answers and solutions.

thank you!


peace and solidarity!