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Compromising Our Democracy: Why HR 550 Proponents Have it Wrong

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 06:58 PM
Original message
Compromising Our Democracy: Why HR 550 Proponents Have it Wrong
In response to a piece I did not know would go on opednews critiquing HR 550 ("the Holt Bill") some responses have stressed the importance of compromise or an incremental approach (these two can come separately or together). "Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good", they say. We will come back for more, they promise....

Nobody's disclosed where lily pad#2 and lily pad#3 are (if Holt is lily pad #1) and with something as important as democracy going on, you'd think the plan would be clear, so we can calculate jumping distances between pads. But the following piece attacks head on the question of whether compromise is appropriate on PROCEDURAL matters, unlike the routine legislative compromise we see on SUBSTANTIVE matters. Can something be 50% fair in procedure, as a compromise??

These issues are magnified to the nth degree when we purport to compromise on the integrity of democracy itself. One important reason NOT to compromise, is that democracy overall is so much believed in and so powerful in rhetoric, that only a failure to articulate it, or a failure to be patient, could prevent its ultimate restoration. However, if we push ourselves into a technical position of arguing on a statistical basis for a less flawed audit than the Holt audit, most activists don't have the time, and Joe Q Public will not light a candle for lily pad#2, beefed up audits. But that is where all the eggs are laid, in the audit basket, because the Holt paper records are totally impotent on DREs unless the audit actually proves something.

and when we MOST NEED THE AUDITS TO COUNT, the big boys will throw all kinds of resources at the audits, and it will fail big time. it will be Florida 2000 all over again, the DREs announce the purported "winner" based on electronic results, then the audits purport to show something, but their flawed nature is overturned in court, with support from Febble and OTOH, who along with the majority of other statisticians are forced to admit the audits were flawed....


REKINDLING THE FLAME OF DEMOCRACY

Written as An analogy to the compromise bill offered by Holt (HR 550)

Adding paper trails to touch screen voting, or getting rid of it entirely?

by Paul R Lehto, Attorney at Law

lehtolawyer@hotmail.com



If someone puts their hand into your pocket without your permission (sorta down your pants, in a way) and then starts "compromising" and negotiating a settlement of sorts with you in exchange for taking their hand only HALF way out, you are absolutely correct to reject their "reasonable" offers and demand that they remove their hand.



Now, I'd say that the voting system vendors have their hands in the pocket of democracy. You know what I'm talking about, that's why you're an activist. Do we negotiate with them for paper trails, and other measures that are half way measures, even if they totally lived up to their advertising?



Why are we going to compromise and settle for half measures? What justification is there for that? Or will we tell them to get their hands out of the pocket of our democracy, immediately?



This sounds strident, and uncompromising, but let me address that fear of being "radical" and seemingly "uncompromising" HEAD ON. Just a few more sentences.



This is not really for me a question of pragmatism and "one step at a time". My county already got rid of paperless DREs, so I know it can happen without legislation.



Litigation is the most effective approach, not legislation. Or direct action. Both New Mexico and Washington State ditched touch screen DREs, but they had litigation support. Litigation is also the most appropriate approach because litigation addresses *current* wrongs, while legislation fixes "new" problems.



DREs are already wrong. They were wrong from the beginning.



I don't think we're stronger with false assurances of 'paper trails' under Holt that reassure the distracted but good faith citizen who doesn't even know the audits are compromised like all activists admit. But again, this is not a matter of strategic compromise of the usual type. As a lawyer I compromise cases almost daily and I’ve worked in a state senate for a little while, so I know the importance of strategy and progress in little bites.



The problem is, democracy is ours to protect and defend, but it is not ours to play with.



Rather, we've got NO RIGHT to compromise in our day what others built over centuries.



Rather, if any person has ever died for our democracy, what right do we have to compromise with regard to it, today?



If in fact we are fighting for democracy on our own soil, what basis do we have for thinking that Americans would somehow lose a battle for democracy on their own soil?



What answer do we give when the Star Spangled Banner asks us the question at the end:



O Say Does that Star-Spangled Banner yet Wave,

O'er the Land of the Free and home of the Brave?



Will a land of free and brave citizens, in touch with their history, their Declaration of Independence and their moral sense, fight to get their democracy back in tiny little steps? If they EVER would take little steps, it would be regretfully, and not proudly as if their position knew of no reasonable alternative, all other positions being "deluded".



No, the Founders and Framers that we learn about but often never internalize thought quite strongly that there are certain things you just can't do to a people, certain rights that are inalienable and nonwaivable.


They said "Don't Tread on Me" in a flag, We can Say "Don't Glitch on Me" for there is a similar intrusion on the sovereignty of the people suggested in both.



Patrick Henry said "Give me liberty, or give me death." Empty words? Or the promise of someone who knew that real freedom, as Cicero said, is "participation in power". Like elections, for example.



This past Saturday, after explaining to EAC commissioner Ray Martinez that mere purchase contracts for DREs were purporting to take away democratic rights to observe the vote count, I asked: By what right or authority are these rights taken away? Martinez answered that he didn't intend to do that, Congress didn't intend to do that, and the federal government didn't intend to trump our rights to observe. He suggested bringing it up with the state legislature. So I asked him why I would have to bring it up with the legislature when nobody bothered to pass a law taking away these democratic rights in the first place? He said in pertinent part "I don't have a good answer for you."



The next business day, Commissioner Martinez resigned from the Election Assistance Commission, citing "personal and family reasons". A thinking person, and Mr. Martinez fits that bill" would and should resign rather than preside over the coming train wreck of HAVA combined with an EAC litigation cram-down of DREs based on misrepresentations about what HAVA really requires, that has in the end the direct effect of eliminating the transparency and thus the procedural integrity of democracy.



In the end, democracy has made us no promises of substantive justice, only a procedural promise. That is, there's no promise that the more just side will win the election, because any such promise would require the elimination of freedom in order to guarantee the correct result. No, democracy seeks the "consent of the governed" through elections, because ONLY CONSENT can be a basis for ruling in a land of free and equal citizens. Consequently, if there is no procedural integrity in elections, there is no legitimate government. And, if the elections can't be verified or reproduced, science itself will tell you that they do not exist within the realm of what science will call truth or proven.



So, without procedural integrity, our governments are not legitimate. Democracy is rendered void. Should we fight for legitimate government, pay off the vendors to take their hand half way out of the pocket of democracy?



How much better it would be to read some Winston Churchill, and to promise to fight in the mountains, to fight in the hills, to fight in the seas, and if the country should last a thousand years, that perhaps people would one day say, this was one of their finest hours.



Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm. Winston Churchill.



We need to risk failure. But in doing so we find our greatest power.



If we are fighting not just for ourselves but for others, what process do we go through to justify a compromise of their rights? You mean, so that WE HAVE AN EASIER TIME OF IT, STRATEGICALLY?



So that we feel better for our successes and don't have to feel bad for so long?



Maybe, just maybe, we are fighting for democracy, and that makes us freedom fighters too. Get used to being tough, and then in that moment, we'll start to get used to winning. it's just that us "first activists" and "second wave activists" will have to get used to the idea that the false gods of easy success can easily lead us away from keeping our eyes on the prize. That occasionally there are things that can not be compromised, or should not be.



At the end of the day, if we are extremely clear about what we are about, we are not trying to move mountains here, because NO ONE will step up to defend secret vote counting.



NO ONE made the decision to institute the radical nontransparency we so object to. The EAC didn't, the Congress didn't, and the federal government didn't.



We are simply tasked with the job of reversing an invalid and void action of the government. Except it's not an "action" it's a side effect. We need ghostbusters, not bunkerbusters. We are trying to break a weak hypnotic spell. It is not that hard to do, but in a democracy enough people have to have the same belief at the same time to get the momentum, and after that it can not be stopped. Early activists must resist despair during these early building periods.


We must be sure that if and when we do commit ourselves on behalf of democracy in anything like a partial step, we must be SURE that it does not make us worse off. I respect both sides of the Holt HR 550 debate, but I think the appropriate question is whether we are 100% sure HR 550 doesn't put us in a worse position to fight from, and that it doesn't make the DRE conquest "kinder and gentler" and therefore help to lengthen its life.


I believe in compromise, but in this particular instance, if you believe as I do that this IS truly about democracy, we really have no choice but to fight our way through this wet paper bag and have the dignity and courage to own democracy, to actually feel it, and then in that moment we will have the courage and strength to invite the trespassing vendors in the temple of democracy to remove their hands from the pockets of democracy.


When their greedy paws are finally and completely out, then they can kiss our ass as well. And we will have done something in our time, like other people did something for us, in their time. They paid it forward. Surely we can too, on both sides of this debate, pay it forward and rekindle the flames of democracy.


Paul Lehto

Attorney at Law

lehtolawyer@hotmail.com



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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Time for the truth. Free and fair discussion of democracy.
Edited on Thu Apr-13-06 07:29 PM by autorank
"the voting system vendors have their hands in the pocket of democracy."

That's what it's all about. Why won't anyone enunciate this, say it openly in the halls or on the floor of Congress?

Why won't anyone say this openly and honestly in the CM/MSM?

Why won't just one national party leader say it for all to hear: it's a rigged game -- we know it, they know it and we're fed up, NO MORE.

Why do we equate pragmatism (which is just fine w/me, btw) with a real solution to the election fraud problem.

We have to keep hoeing while we pray for rain. It's going to take more than one act, one event, one scandal, one bill, or one champion to get what we need.

How controversial is voting rights? It's not controversial at all YET there is a de facto ban on the topic on MSM, in Congress, and by party leaders.

It's not requesting out of the box thinking to demand that our party represent for real voting rights.

The time is now, tell the truth...elections in this country do not confer legitimacy on those elected. Invisible ballots are no ballots. Our elections have been privatized.


Thanks for this statement...much needed reminder.

...and for some more truth on tyranny...
Al Gore’s Devastating Indictment of President Bush
Tuesday, 17 January 2006, 11:51 am
Article: Michael Collins "Scoop" Independent Media
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0601/S00122.htm
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Well, thats what we've been saying
The election was stolen.

It is but a shout in the wilderness. Yes, from a whisper to a muffled shout we have grown stronger. But still hardly anyone hears. And few have joined in.

When will they hear us in the capitols? Every time a voice reaches that far it is practically snuffed.

Even on DU the voices get snuffed.

So we see a bill, 550, that seems to respond to our voices. Is it a mirage? Or is it the gate to an oasis?

The election was stolen. Even here, on ER, however, that message is denigrated: "Don't say that".

Until we can all say with one voice "The election was stolen" we are not going to be heard. And they will HAVA their way with us.



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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. yes, but we can say "no one will ever know if any election was stolen"
and let each listener flash on their own "bad guy" winning. AVoids the knee jerk 30% or more in opposition just because it's the "other side's guy" saying it.

Another problem is that the Holt bill will insitutionalize Florida 2000 with DREs, with the audit taking the place of the Gore "partial recount" Does anyone think that the partial audit is much different than the partial recount or that the Scalia/Roberts Court would have any problem dispensing with the case on that ground or any number of other grounds? More realistically, it is so similar to Florida 2000 that you'd see a fast concession speech, complete with a crowd of activists outside chanting to "count all the votes" with the lawyers inside shaking their heads in sadness, knowing that if they did they were legally screwed
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Either it was stolen
... or it wasn't. Why mince words?

I've compromised with the: "It could have been stolen, and "You don't know if it was stolen or not.

Fuck that. It Was Stolen.

We are in a fight to the death. In a fight like this you don't ask if someone took a shot at you, you shoot first. You claim the high ground. You ask if Holt will gaurantee his bill will keep it from being stolen again.

Will the passage of 550 stop the elections from being stolen? I think we know the answer to that.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. works for me, as long as you're talking to progressives or Dems
if by chance you need to persuade someone else, then your argument will work if you just delete the name of the parties and let the listener imagine. that way the listener can be more fair and ultimately act more justly
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. there is a real need for straight up truth telling...
regardless of whether i'm providing it, or not. it's still needed.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. just a bad day for analogy
This has so much rhetorical guff, I can't tell whether there is actually an argument, and I don't have any more time to try to figure it out.

It sounds great to call for 100% certainty, but it is rarely given to us to be 100% sure about anything.

Does this mean, in English, that we should call for a DRE ban and nothing less, nothing else, nothing but? or that we should call for PBHC and nothing less/else/but? or what? How can I know whether we are compromising That Which Must Not Be Compromised?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. you're just avoiding most of the argument OTOH
either than or you simply don't care about what it took for others to GET democracy

There's no ANALOGY there, if they worked their lives and died for it you can take questionable baby steps on it to put a bandaid on a technology everyone agrees is no good?
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
33. I love it when people refuse to answer my simple questions
and toss in gratuitous gibes to boot. Are you suggesting that anyone who supports HR 550 "just doesn't care about what it took for others to GET democracy"? or is that reserved for me?

If you aren't willing to state clearly what you think shouldn't be compromised, then there is no basis for honest debate. This is obvious. I have no time or heart to waste on dishonest debate.

What should not be compromised? State or get off the pot.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Sarcasm indicates that your questions are not serious
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. no, it doesn't
It indicates that I am resisting the impulse to get really angry that you are democracy-baiting me.

There was nothing the least bit sarcastic about my statement about rhetorical guff. That's how it is.

As I read history, a fervent cry not to compromise, studiously vague on what not to compromise, is not likely to lead anywhere I want to go.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. If....
If I had the money, I'd file lawsuits. Why hasn't some rich guy filed a bunch of lawsuits?

Litigation is the way out of this morass. The bastards who stole the election understand litigation, but laugh at us little guys when we poke our noses into their bailiwick of DC.

550 is part of a long up hill climb. Why are we at the bottom of this hill? For three years now I have been consumed with the fact that our democracy is on it's death bed due to the damned machines counting our votes.

Other people, most other people don't have a clue - they don't want a clue. They are sheeple. If they understood the funeral is being planned they might sit up and take notice. Even on DU most don't have a clue. Even on DU.

Shark, take your message to General Discussion. We will back you up and begin to shove the funeral plans down their throats so that they will join us. DU could be a force, but not the way it sets right now, right now it's more of an obstruction. Lets change that, and see about getting more lawsuits going.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm with you 100% on that! Got one of 'dem myself
be the first one on your block to sue! ; )
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. KR...nt
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you for all your work on this Land Shark
I tend to agree with you, but I don't have a good enough grasp of the legal details to know for sure.

But one thing I don't understand is why you feel that we need to be 100% sure that a bill will work the way we want it to before we agree to it (Is that what you're saying?). If we're 50% sure that it will work the way we want and 80% sure that at least it will help us at least some, why not pass it and give it a try? Especially with an election coming up, it seems that some improvement is better than none, while we're working for something better.

But like I said, I don't feel that I have enough expertise in this area to argue the point well.

:patriot:
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. the assumption of incrementalism is that it's AT LEAST a step forward
it is that assumption that I think is either completely wrong or a leap of faith. but i can only address it more fully in a different piece.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is less a "half a loaf" situation than it is "half a baby".
Terrific post.

:thumbsup:
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. why didn't I think of that? Darn.....!
some things you just can't compromise on. Procedural fairness. Life and death.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. He's good isn't he! You should hear him sing;)
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. If I could teach the world to sing,
I'd start with the voting machine technicians and programmers.

:)

And I just filed copyright papers on the "Half a Baby" mark, so don't go using it for any purposes other than promoting verifiable elections!
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. thanks for the permanent license bleever, restricted to elections!
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Ahem
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. My recommend at 2:35 a.m., FogerRox's AHEM at 2:38 a.m.
here's the proof FogerRox:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=422803&mesg_id=423055>

need to be a little faster on the 'ahem' draw. : )
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. have crayons will draw-- :) its my cheap 15 dollar/month DSL
yeah thats what happened . . ..
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. no problem, the kick didn't hurt! : )
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. D'oh!
Another potential revenue stream inadvertantly surrendered to the public domain!

It is kinda visceral, isn't it?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Democracy is our baby. Hey, let's play "split the baby" with Diebold!
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. Please go back to the post you abandoned and read what I said about
this matter and about you, LandShark.

Thank you for your vigilance, and clear thinking--and I'm sorry you have had to suffer the slings and arrows that often are inflicted upon whistleblowers.

I think it's very clear that the Dems in Congress are trying to SAVE electronic voting--and the porkbarrel, corporatist aspects of HAVA. They know we are a powerful voice. They know that information about our fraudulent election system and about the 2004 election fraud scandal is spreading like wildfire. They want to be seen as DOING something. And that can be okay. We WANT our politicians to be responsive. But we must never again close our eyes and trust them. Never again! And we shouldn't trust them NOW.

I'll come back later and comment more. I have to go eat dinner now.

Thanks again for all you have done--and in particular for finding the loopholes in HR 550 by which they can screw us over once again. Because one thing we know--if they can, they will.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thanks Peace Patriot, although I beat FogerRox by 3 minutes, you
beat me by three minutes. I read the other reply and posted a brief reply at this link while you were over here!

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=422926&mesg_id=423060>

Thanks for recognizing that there's some things that need to be heard and in some ways I wish I'd never said them so saying this would not in any way be self-promotion.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
27. Explain why Optical Scan is any better than DRE?
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 01:00 AM by Bill Bored
Sure there is one ballot, instead of a ballot and a record that becomes a ballot under certain conditions. But when is the op scan ballot counted by hand as opposed to a computer? In Florida, the answer is NEVER. Your mileage may vary. New Mexico will use Op Scan but how much will THEY audit?

But while DREs have the distinct disadvantage of being able to rewrite the voters' choices, and in fact make certain legal combinations of vote casting physically and logically impossible (through software), they can be easily audited if they have paper trails and EVERYONE pays attention. And because each DRE holds fewer votes, statistically, an audit would be more likely to find concentrated DRE fraud than concentrated optical scan fraud. (Because there are more DREs to audit for a given percentage.)

I'm not advocating DREs though; far from it. But what other system shows a clear advantage once the DREs are "brought under control" so to speak? And I'm not saying HR 550 necessarily accomplishes this, just that it may be possible at some future time.

So with or without HR 550, why are optical scanners intrinsically better than DREs? The only answers I can come up with are that they're easier to test and they can't rewrite the paper ballot. If that's good enough than let's use 'em. But without the proper auditing and recounts, which can also be applied to DREs, the scanners are no better.

I'm still working on this. I'm frustrated by activists who claim that optical scanners aren't "computers" and how this is being sold and fear mongered. I guess they're saying that vote casting is not being done a computer, but what about vote counting and ballot definition settings? There is essentially no difference between DREs and scanners when it comes to these crucial functions.

Oh well, this is getting a little too deep now so I'll cut it short.

BTW, you lied when you said there were only a few more sentences in your original post. :)

I would like to know however, what you think is the ideal voting system? If it's hand counted paper, than why not just say so and forget about Holt?

Hand counted paper ballots are legal under HAVA, HR 550, and every other federal bill I've seen, aren't they? So if that's your solution, why not advocate for it without risking a continuation of the status quo which is DREs that cannot even be independently verified? At least HR 550 would eliminate that threat, and you can still hand count as many paper ballots as you can convince your local BoE to count.

No offense Land Shark. You know I love ya man, but where is Andy when we need him?:(
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I'll post my answer tomorrow called Cramdown and Lockdown
the opscans are are potentially rescuable system with appropriate checks and balances; without them they have many but not all of the same problems

the DREs can not be redeemed until they are written out completely and become expensive ballot printers, and the paper record is the ballot of first count, but even then they are creating long lines and suppressing the vote in districts that are not rich or else are fiscally conservative.

You're making big assumptions about the effects of the 550 paper record. More later.
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Well I agree
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 06:50 AM by Febble
with both your points here:

that DREs cannot be redeemed until they become (expensive) ballot printers. But unless they become ballot printers they cannot be audited as required by the Holt bill. To audit, you need to be able to come up with the same answer by two different methods, and you can't do that if the count and the ballot are co-terminous. As I understand it, the huge benefit of the Holt bill is that it insists that those two entities are not coterminous. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Moreover, if the audits required by the Holt bill find that they cannot even be relied on to count the votes correctly (and a random 2% should do this effectively) then they will have to be improved or thrown out, because otherwise they will be HUGELY expensive ballot printers. How expensive depends on the kind of action that is mandated to follow on an audit that finds that they are unreliable, but recounts are notoriously expensive in your benighted country. At present this part of the bill seems flimsy, but perhaps someone can put me right here.

Your second point, regarding rationing, I totally agree with. It remains my view that DREs probably cost Kerry more votes simply by being unavailable to Kerry's voters than they did by switching his votes to Bush. I am aware that many disagree, but I think the evidence is extremely strong for the former, and less strong for the latter. One of the huge benefits of HCPB is that all you need to provide is a pencil and a ballot.

My optimistic prediction is that if Holt passes, and is properly implemented, DREs will be shown up to be an expensive waste of money, leading to even more expensive recounts. On the other hand, it may induce the manufacturers to make them both accurate and secure.

I won't make a pessimistic prediction, I'll leave that to you.

(edited for typo)
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
29. Will HR 550 pass?
I haven't noticed that question being asked.

The bill was crafted for this Republican Congress. It may have been compromised for the precise reason that it's currently a Republican Congress. Holt's office might have better language in a file for use when the bill could be passed, such as when it's not a Republican Congress.

550 has no Senate companion. It has maybe a dozen Republican co-sponsors--about 10% of the Repubs in the House. Dem sponsored bills don't do all that well in recent years.

I don't see 550 going anywhere. And I am amazed that the discussion about the merits of the bill has been treated as though only two more votes are needed for passage and Land Shark has the ear of those two (Republicans).

I was heartened, however, to see a couple of posters working toward suggested improvement. That struck me as sane, relevant, and constructive, as opposed to insane, irrelevant, and destructive.

Anyone questioning Paul's motivatation has apparently been unaquainted with his arguments and his work, save, perhaps, some recent bbv citation. I am not of the opinion that he has touched off this firestorm. Rather, it's been the unmeasured reaction to it, solely (at least on DU) because bbv snipped it, and a view seemingly devoid of consideration of the bill's political prospect...with a resulting loss of energy. The lack of comity thrown in for extra-destructive effect.

It saddens me. But only because I made the mistake of hoping better of this forum.

Those claiming bbv has a destructive effect on the movement, and then turn this forum into a battlefield over it, help manifest that.

I did not write the Law.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
45. "Will HR 550 pass? I haven't noticed that question being asked." ..
Good point! And I've raised it a couple of times in posts on this subject.

It is very important to put this bill--and all election reform issues--in context, both past context (who got us here in the first place, and how much can we trust them now?), current context (Bush junta in trouble, prospects for passage), and future context (the fate of American democracy, the rights of future generations).

There are enormous dangers in THIS Congress addressing itself to "election reform"--arguably a worse, more unrepresentative, more fascist bunch of Bush "pod people" and corporatist, pro-war Democrats than the Anthrax Congress that passed the "Help America Vote For Bush Act."

HR 550 has had a resurgence probably because elections are imminent, and because opinion poll disapproval of the Bush junta has been at 60% to 70% all year with no prospect of improvement. Democrats and especially Democrats who represent the majority in this country--leftist, antiwar Democrats--would rightfully sweep Congress in unrigged elections, but will be lucky to even come close to a majority in Congress with Diebold's and ES&S's 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" for Bushites and warmongers. And a lot more people, among the grass roots, are aware of this than in 2004. So ALL Democratic office holders and candidates are probably getting an earful from the grass roots, and have to at least LOOK LIKE they are doing something about it. Thus, a flurry of discussion about HR 550.

What are its prospects? Zilch, unless it is amended to suit Bush's "pod people." And if it is weakened any further--or includes poison pills from the criminals--some co-sponsors will drop off, and some will stay on and falsely "sell" it as "election reform." The Congressional Democrats have an utterly dismal record at preventing fascist bills and other terrible actions (such as Dimwit appointing the Supreme Court). Will the co-sponsors hold firm on the positive aspects of this bill, if there is movement on the bill? Some won't--and that will be the end of that. (Some will only want cosmetic reform--something they can "sell"). Will it get anywhere this year? Probably not, unless the bad guys see it as a cipher that they can use to advance HAVA (Tom Delay/Bob Ney/Chris Dodd) goals of corruption and non-transparency.

One danger is that, if, by some miracle--say, massive voter turnout in '06 that defeats the machines--the Democrats gain some strength in Congress, HR 550--which has been described by people who should know better as "the gold standard of election reform"--will be all we get even from an insurgent Congress. No repeal of HAVA. No cleaning of house in our election system. Further entrenchment of private, rightwing corporations--who will fight us every step of the way, on compliance and interpretation, and have the financial and legal resources to do so. Rightwing billionaire Howard Ahmanson, for instance, who initially funded ES&S when it split off from Diebold, and who also gave a million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon Foundation (who tout the death penalty for homosexuals, among other things), is not likely to give up on rightwing-controlled elections. HR 550 means that we will be fighting this battle for decades to come.

The problem is not just the current, complete non-transparency in our elections. The problem is PRIVATIZATION of our elections. And THAT is the thing that many Democratic leaders are attached to. Big money. Big contracts. Corporate boondoggle. Power over the money. And OTHER electronics contracts with the gov't. (In Calif, for instance, Diebold doesn't just get lots and lots of money for their crapass voting systems, they ALSO run U. of Calif. database systems, and other aspects of gov't. THAT is probably why the Calif Dems caved on the witchhunt against Kevin Shelley (that, and fear).)

So the Democrats want to SAVE electronic voting. That's what HR 550 is all about--I'm realizing late in the day. It's a pretty good bill, if you don't know the HISTORY of this matter--that is, if you don't realize what a terrible scam HAVA was to begin with, and what a coup for the fascists! It tries to SAVE electronic voting with measures that should never have been missing in the first place--paper ballots for recounts, publicly reviewable source code, required audits--and that Democratic leaders should have screamed bloody murder about, way back when. Now that the fascists are entrenched, in the courts, in the military and intelligence communities, and in our election system, and now that the rich have had all the tax cuts they could conceivably desire, and all the deregulation, and now that secrecy, domestic spying, torture, war, and blatant lawbreaking by the executive have been set up as precedents, and now that our Corporate Rulers are completely out of control, the Democrats want to give us a paper ballot and the bare minimum of auditing (2%).

And that's probably the limit of what we will get even from a Congress with a Democratic edge, in the near future anyway. (Wilms, you suggest that Holt may have a stronger bill in the file cabinet, in case Congress changes color. I'll believe it when it see it.)

Prospects for HR 550 this year? Nil--to be realistic. Prospects after the '06 elections--probably better. Prospects for 100% transparency--the REAL "gold standard" of elections--not any time soon. With HR 550, should it pass as is, we'll still be fighting Diebold and ES&S and their entrenched advocates (both Dem and Repub) far into the foreseeable future--over interpretation and compliance.

Maybe the only way to achieve 100% transparency is to embed that principle--the bottom line of democracy; full voter confidence in elections--in a general platform of anti-corporatism. And that means either a new political party, or radical reform of one of the two current major parties. The Corporatists are doing enormous harm to our democracy--not to mention to the planet--on many fronts. We really need a revolution against THEM. We need to de-charter the worst of them, dismantle them, seize their assets for the public good, and let that be a lesson to the others. (Thomas Jefferson wanted the Feds to have that power, but had to compromise in giving it to the states, which are the entities that now charter corporations. He greatly feared corporations, and hoped that the states--closer to the people--would keep them in control. He probably couldn't have imagined our situation--the vastness of the corruption, with BOTH the federal government AND the state governments taken over by corporations, including the counting of our votes! He would be aghast.)

If you merely try to tweak a corporatized government system--to make it fairer, to make it not so onerous--you will end up with a fascist junta. That's what big, rich, powerful corporations WILL do, if you don't keep a tight reign on them. That should be the lesson of "the Reagan years"--wherein the rewrite of the tax code to favor the rich and "globalization" began--and to some extent of the Clinton administration--the coup de grace of NAFTA (and no universal health care). But now that we are here, in the midst of the fascist coup, we don't have the power to just go back to square one (say, the Carter administration). We have to climb back out of this hole one way or another.

I totally sympathize with Land Shark's point that elections are either transparent or they are NOT elections. They are tyranny. He is correct. You can't--or you shouldn't--compromise on the BOTTOM LINE of democracy. And that IS what we are talking about--the bottom line. There is no lower ground--that you can call "democracy."

But we can't get there, in current circumstances. We can't even get HR 550 passed--a positive tweak to the electronic systems--let alone insure 100% transparency.

Maybe THAT is what we need to realize--and many of us have been too privileged all our lives to realize it. This is a FASCIST COUP. And we have been stripped of our rights as citizens. Our sovereignty as a people is GONE. So, how do we get it back?

I'm reminded of the INCREMENTAL ways by which black citizens GRADUALLY fought for full citizenship--starting WAY BACK at the turn of the 19th/20th century and before. I don't know where I picked this up, but the black railroad porters of the early 20th century where clever men who listened very closely when the white passengers they were serving talked about their financial investments, and began socking money away in interest-bearing accounts and other investments, to pay for college educations for their KIDS. These were people who were denied voting rights in the south, and denied full citizenship everywhere else, and were the victims of intense bigotry. The porters' union was a refuge and a strength, amidst vast discrimination. Meanwhile, blacks were serving in the military--in a sense, establishing their credentials as Americans--and ALSO learning about parts of the country and parts of the world where segregation, and lynchings, and poll taxes, did not exist, or at least not as severely as they existed in the rural South. These were the SEEDS of the civil rights movement: educated black children who could see beyond the borders of segregation, Truman's desegregation of the Army after WW II, and also the strength of the movement, black churches, with their strong organization and community cohesion--the work of many good people over many decades.

Incremental change, on FUNDAMENTAL rights. There WAS no other way. The power weighing against black citizens was too great. You got out of line, you were lynched. And you might be lynched even if you didn't get out of line.

The oppression of the our Corporate Rulers is subtler, on the whole, but no less lethal to our rights as citizens and human beings. The Bush junta has done us the favor of exposing this oppression, ripping the veils from our eyes, so that we can see it in all its naked ugliness. We are nothing more than slaves and cannon fodder to these Rulers. The dead bodies of US soldiers, or of poor blacks in New Orleans, or of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, mean NOTHING to them. NOTHING! They are cold-ass S.O.B.s who would just as soon see Howard Ahmanson burn you at the stake, as look at you. Freedom for them is the freedom to loot, the freedom to kill, and the freedom to torture for PROFIT--and the freedom to DESTROY this democracy in order to do so.

Perhaps we need to get rid of our illusions that we can easily tweak this government/political system back to democracy. And maybe that's where LandShark goes wrong in opposing incremental transparency. He is right, of course. Partial transparency in elections violates the very definition of elections. And maybe things are not so dire for us as they were for blacks in the south in the late 19th and through the mid-20th centuries--not yet anyway. But things are pretty damned bad when we have to beg our own political party to support PARTIAL transparency. Further, the Bush fascists and their colluders are bankrupting a lot of us--with cruel medical costs, gas price gouging, loss of jobs, poor wages, usurious credit card charges, and the whole bag of fascist crimes, PLUS trillions of dollars of federal debt. Our very ability to be citizens is under assault. How can you be a good citizen--in this new world of speed-of-light financial and election theft, and massive gov't secrecy, and thievery by the rich--if you are working two low paying jobs to feed your children, and can't afford a visit to the doctor if you get sick?

Well, ask somebody's black grandfather or grandmother! You do it be being smart, and having faith and heart, and advancing one step at a time. You do it by fully realizing your situation, evaluating it realistically, and hanging in there, to move things along with each incremental change.

Thomas Jefferson had a fight with his southern brethren over his proposal to include an anti-slavery plank in the Declaration of Independence. He lost. As for his own slaves, if he had freed them, they would have been banned from Virginia. He took several of his slaves to France with him, when he was the US ambassador, and they could have left him there, in revolutionary France, but they didn't. Probably they were a family--one that could not be recognized in Virginia at the time. There was no way to free this family from the severe bigotry and slave laws of the era, short of abandoning the U.S.A. altogether. Jefferson loathed slavery. He wrote about its corrosive effects on the psychology of both whites and blacks. But he couldn't get it overturned. The upshot is that SOMETIMES you just have to have faith in the future. You can't have it all now. It is not possible. You have to plant the seeds and hope for the best, and never give up on the human race and its inherent yearning for enlightenment and for freedom and progress.

We are slaves to our Corporate Rulers, whether we know it or not. Incremental change, planting the seeds, and having faith in the future may be all that we can do. HR 550 is like a "Declaration of Independence" without an anti-slavery provision. It is misshapen. It is not true to itself. It is a compromise with fascist corporations who have done us great harm. But it DOES re-establish the principle of a seeable, countable paper ballot, as well as auditability, and open source code. I doubt that it will see the light of day. But there were likely a lot of similar doubts about the Declaration of Independence, even with the southern slaveholders on board. You never know. There are a lot of good groups and good people behind it.

The Declaration of Independence left the fight over slavery to future generations. Similarly, we may have to swallow a 2% audit, and the further entrenchment of electronic voting and privatization, in order to start a movement toward transparency and freedom from Corporate Rule. But, as I have said elsehwere, we need to do it with OPEN EYES. I thank LandShark for that--for scrutinizing this bill very closely, and pointing to the loopholes and pitfalls. It's not as if we have never been fooled before--by our own party!







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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Sorry I had missed your having raised the point about the bill's prospect.
With that in mind, and the notion that Holt would have opted for stronger language were it not for the Republican control of the House and Senate, I have little problem seeing this discussion as an opportunity for Holt to improve his bill for passage after the 2006 election.

It's reasonable to cite the experience of the Civil Rights Movement, but in that case the public, at large, were fairly well aquainted with the debate and were active in making their own points known.

Arguably, 40 years later, we still have major civil rights problems in this country despite the fact that the live of millions of African-Americans improved. I don't want to suggest we should have resisted the Civil Rights Act. I don't even want to suggest I don't call the African-American community to task either. But we have not reached the "promised land". Worse, many will argue that the rights afforded and the gains made represent our having arrived. At that rate, they may as well call our countries effort to afford civil rights to all citizens a "Gold Standard".

I trust you get my point.

And I'm glad you see my point that it's beside the point because this bill probably won't go anywhere (good).

It's pointless for us all to be tied up in a knot given the probable reality.

Now, my suggestion doesn't guarentee the future passage of a better bill, or agreement on it's language. But right now we have an old piece of legislation tied up in committee. It's language, I don't believe has changed since it's introduction, yet since that time serious questions have been raised about it.

There's time for Holt rework the bill.

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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
30. I don't think the argument as to whether
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 04:53 AM by Febble
supporting the bill is Good Thing or a Bad Thing is going to be resolved by a battle of analogies. Land Shark, yours are great, I especially like the one about the hand down the pants. But the question is not which analogy is the most colorful, but which actually describes the bill best.

As BeFree* Bleever says - is the bill Half-a-Loaf or Half-a-Baby?

That's a debate well worth having, but I think it is one that would be well served by at least a temporary moratorium on analogies.

Bring on the spreadsheets.


Edited to fix. Sorry.
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Steve A Play Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 04:43 AM
Response to Original message
31. Thanks Paul
NGU!

:kick:

NEVER GIVE UP!

:kick:
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
34. You yourself have compromised, haven't you?
When Snohomish County threw out their DREs, didn't they go to mail-in voting?

Mail-in voting is a compromise that introduces complexity and fraud opportunity when compared with polling place HCPB.

For example, mail-in voting makes it possible for a vote broker to gather ballots, proffer them as proof in order to get paid and then drop them in the mailbox.

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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Land Shark discussing the compromise presented by vote-by-mail:
http://washblog.typepad.com/main/2005/02/activism_at_its_1.html

WB: If DRE's are abolished, do you think Vote-By-Mail is the end result?

PL <Paul Lehto, aka Land Shark>: Vote by mail is the most likely result. There are a few activists who still want election day polling because of the danger of vote buying in a mail-in vote system, but if vote buying was going to be a big problem, it would exist in our present vote by mail system (the absentees more than half of us vote on) and because of the hand recount in the governor's race, we'd at least have heard rumors about vote buying even if the media is somewhat reticent to print facts and let the readers decide, perhaps because they get yelled at by one side or the other.


Vote-by-mail presents a real danger of vote brokering. Here in S. Florida a mayor was turned out of office when vote brokering of mail-in ballots was exposed.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Anything else is a sellout
Anything other than hand counting paper ballots at a precinct level is a sellout.

If a community wants to use an alternative form of electing their local reps, fine. But when it comes to electing federal office holders who can pass laws that effect me thousands of miles away then I should have a say in how they do so.

If I have no confidence in how a distant community elects their federal reps. then democracy is tarnished.

550, HAVA, and all the rest of the voting processes except HCPB are invalid processes. There should be no compromising.

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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Every system is a compromise.
Just like every boat design is a compromise (sorry to violate the analogy moratorium).

Polling place HCPB sounds like the end-all perfect system but in reality it too involves compromise.

Because polling place HCPB has a downside -- what about citizens who for one reason or another cannot possibly or reasonably make it to the polling place during the allowable time?

There is no absolutist position in this debate that really stands up to scrutiny. Every system you can come up with will be a compromise of some sort.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. In that context
HCPB is the least compromising.

There is no perfect system.

So the best we can do is use a system that requires the least amount of laws, rules and regulations. That means HAVA, 550 and all the other complicated laws should be ditched.

HCPB can be used everywhere for federal elections. Being that at most only three federal officials are elected at any one time, the arguments for using machines to count complicated ballots is thereby trashed.



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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. If you take the BEST POSSIBLE system, that is not a compromise
because nothing else exists or is possible at that moment in time.

I never lobbied for vote by mail, even though it is an improvement over vote by mail.

Holt is not even a "compromise" and progress. It's just heading up the wrong side of the mountain and calling the first steps made "progress".

But it may well not be possible to even discuss that issue because holt proponents continue to believe that holt "creates" or "mandates" a paper ballot when it does nothing of the kind. A ballot is what gets counted in the original count, and gives the winner's mantle like Bush got in 2000. the holt audit trail is hardly a consolation prize for second place, and no help at all in litigation.
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Holt is not "heading up the wrong side of the mountain".
It is more like deciding to carry a GPS with us in the hopes of being able to tell our troop leader, "excuse me, sir but we appear to be headed up the wrong side of the mountain, sir."

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. but the GPS never gives you reliable data when it COUNTS
you pick your metaphors establishing conclusively that you don't understand the argument against Holt, because a good metaphor would transcend the opponent's argument
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Maybe I don't (understand the argument)
Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say <the Holt audit> never gives you reliable data when it COUNTS?

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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
44. If I am hearing you right
your argument against Holt boils down to:

Counting by DREs is inherently opaque, therefore no amount of auditing will remedy that fundamental fault.

Against that I would argue that ALL counting is inherently opaque, whether it is done by optical scanners, levers, or human eyes and hands. We do not know what is going on in the software, hardware, or wetware in any of these systems.

What gives a count transparency is the ability to check it. And to check it you need a physical ballot (or even a paper receipt - bear with me) that has been approved by the voter that is separate from the process of counting. And it seems to me that that is what Holt requires.

Of course, the ability to check the count won't do anything for you unless you check it. The cleanest window in the world won't let you see anything through it unless you look. And what Holt also requires is that you look.

So it seems to me that, in principle, Holt gives transparency even to DREs, provided the provisions actually work - provided the machines actually produce paper ballots that can be, and are, re-counted and checked against the original count, and that the checks are done on a perfectly random basis, that custody of those ballots is assured at all points, and that the sample size is adequate to ensure that a clean recount can be inferred with a high degree of confidence to mean that the machine counts have a very high threshold of accuracy. A statewide requirement of 2% seems to me to be in the right statistical ballpark.

What Holt also requires, it seems to me, is to provide for what happens if that audit fails. But so far, I am convinced that it is a definite step in the direction of transparency, and spells the end of at least the current generation of crap, paperless DREs.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. then see my new post on Nonstatistical reason why Holt audits just won't
work

up in just a few
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
46. I think reading this thread has helped me understand some
of the issues you all have been addressing re Holt. And, I've decided I don't want a step in the direction of transparency, I want transparency.

In addition, I can't support negotiation with the Republican party vendor/ mercenaries who are in business to disenfranchise me. I want the mercs to go to jail.

As long as we premise our elections on their systems, we will lose.

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