Electonic Voting - The Issue We Don't See

[AFFIRM]

First: Is it easier to hack thousands of retired volunteer poll workers sitting their on election day counting punch cards or, thousands of computers linked to, perhaps, fifty servers?

Second: And this is the BIG QUESTION ..........

Today, we live in a world where so much personal data is stored, bought, sold and stolen about each one of us. Credit card companies are having their servers hacked, compromising the security of thousands of their members. The IRS is now subcontracting some of their workload out to private companies. Do we really want a computerized record out there somewhere of exactly how we voted?

Picture this scenario, a poor single mother in any city, USA goes down to her local welfare office for help. Somewhere in a back room a clerk feeds her data into the computer. That computer waits to get her information from the server. Minutes later, the server answers back with a red flag. This applicant does not receive benefits because she voted Democrat last year. The clerk doesn't see the reason for denial, only a coded message saying benefits denied.

Granted this may seem a little far-fetched. However, is it possible with electronic voting? ABSOLUTELY Is it possible with traditional paper ballots? NOT LIKELY

Consider another situation, this one a lot more likely. The same mom has an idea to start her own business. She goes down to the bank and applies for a loan through the Small Business Association. We all know an SBA loan takes time to get ... if you even ever hear back from them at all. Well, in this case the SBA got her paperwork. They tapped into the US Govt. database and found she had not voted favorable for the party in power. The poor woman never hears back from the SBA.

Unlike the first scenario, this one would be nearly impossible to prove. What is even worse is that police departments and eventually even insurance companies would get this data too. I assure you, the infrastructure is already in place for this to be possible.

As you can see, it is not only election integrity that is at stake when we switch to electronic voting, but nearly every facet of our personal lives as well. In light of these facts and possibilities, we must ask; Why in the world would we even dare switch our voting system? Our votes must remain counted and traceable but not collectible. For once they are collected, they can then be sold, bought and hacked, enabling our political desires to be used against us.

[BeFree]

1. Welcome to DU, AFFIRM

First: It is nearly impossible to hack thousands of election workers. But easy to hack hundreds of computers that come from one manufacturer.

It's like saying it is easier to poison millions of gallons of water in one big lake and nearly impossible to poison the water in millions of gallons of jugs spread across the country.

Second: If there were iris recognition, palm readers, or other such ID mechanisms embedded in the voting machines, then your nightmare scenario could come true.
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If you give them an inch, they will take a mile, as the old saying goes, and the voting machines are already a mile down the road. There's no telling what they might go with the technology. Lets stop it right here and now, eh?

We can do so quite simply.... we get congress to mandate that federal election ballots are marked by humans and counted by humans. At most there are only three federal races at any one time, so the argument that complicated ballots have to be marked by, and counted by machines, is erased, because three races in no way could be considered complicated.

Local and state races can be run however locales and states want elections run, but federal races need to be nationalized and be the same everywhere in the country.

We need to make a federal case for running federal elections, and that case can be HCPB.

[garybeck]

2. not really

we still have a secret ballot and there is no mechanism to match voters to votes. the real problem with electronic voting is the secret vote counting.

[Atman]

4. How do you know there is no mechanism to match votes to voters?

That's the gist of whole point...with electronic voting, you have no idea what is going on inside that machine! Only the people loading the software know, and they've all said their code is proprietary. I think you give far too much credit to the crooks making these machines, who are most definitely in BushCo's pocket.

[Peace Patriot]

3. This is a very interesting and important insight into the electronic

voting scam, and one I hadn't thought of--and I do try to think fascist scams through as to their real intentions, short term and long term. And this one is not far-fetched at all. There are already schemes to centralize voter registration lists, which means they can be easily searched for registered Democrats, Greens or others. Register as a Democrat and you don't get the loan, or the government help you deserve. Not far-fetched at all--in fact, right around the corner.

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SOME RESOURCES FOR AMERICAN REVOLUTION II:

Hopeful signs - latest news:

California voters sue the state over Diebold:
www.VoterAction.org--just announced--is suing the state of California and 18 Calif county registrars on behalf of 25 California voter/plaintiffs, on the illegal Diebold "certification" by Schwarzenegger appointee Bruce McPherson.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2180496

Maryland rejects Diebold:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x418263

Florida - anti-trust accusations against Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia, re: heroic Florida election official Ion Sancho:
(FLA AG subpoenas the companies)
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,110192,00.html
http://www.tbo.com/news/politics/MGBKSY8W8LE.html
(info & discussion)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2183630

Utah county clerk fights back!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x419226

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More resources for American Revolution II:

www.votersunite.org (MythBreakers - easy primer on electronic voting--one of the myths is that HAVA requires electronic voting; it does not.)
www.UScountvotes.org (statistical monitoring of '06 and '08 elections--they need donations)


(Activist sites with links to state activist groups or info)
www.votetrustusa.org (news of this great movement from around the country)
www.votersunited.org (good general info, and state links)
www.verifiedvoting.org (great activist site)
www.solarbus.org/election/index.shtml (fab compendium of all election info)

www.freepress.org (devoted to election reform)
www.bradblog.com (also great, and devoted to election reform)
www.TruthIsAll.net (analysis of the 2004 election)* :patriot: :applause: :patriot:
www.votepa.us (well-organized local group of citizen activists in Pennsylvania, where important legal issues are at stake, including state's rights over election systems)

The Voter Confidence Resolution
http://tinyurl.com/rlnr2 (“We Do Not Consent”)
http://guvwurld.blogspot.com (GuvWurld blog main page)
http://tinyurl.com/amryg (Voter Confidence Resolution

www.debrabowen.com (Calif Senator running for Sec of State to reform election system)
www.johnbonifaz.com (running for Massachusetts Sec of State on strong election reform and antiwar platform)

*Some tributes to TruthIsAll, who is very ill:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x417007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x417231
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x675477

Congressional bills:

Russ Holt's HR 550 requires a real paper ballot, bans secret software in "voting machines", and has more than 170 co-sponsors, but the audit required is too weak, it promotes electronic voting and centralized power, and the secret software might be permitted to continue in the central tabulators (the bill is not clear). To sign the HR 550 petition: http://www.rushholt.com/petition.html
At lot of discussion at DU of the loopholes/pitfalls in HR 550:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x422926
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x421136
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=422967&mesg_id=422967
(Note: Senate Bill-SB 330 and House-HR704 simply require a "voter verified paper audit trail" (VVPAT), which may be best for the moment.)


Also of interest:

Bob Koehler (-- four recent election reform initiatives in Ohio, predicted to win by 60/40 votes, flipped over, on election day, into 60/40 LOSSES!--the biggest flipover we've seen yet; the election theft machines and their masters are now dictating election policy!)
www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?file=20051124ctnbk-a.txt&catid=1824&code=ctnbk

Bob Koehler's latest: "Take this box and stuff it" (3/16/06)
http://commonwonders.com/archives/col337.htm

Amaryllis (Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia lavish lobbying of election officials - Beverly Hilton, Aug. '05)
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x380340

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Throw Diebold, ES&S and ALL election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!

:think: :patriot: :woohoo: :patriot: :think:

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"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it." --Thomas Jefferson, The Declaration of Independence

[Boredtodeath]

5. Electronic ballots are NOT secret

The 'secret ballot' is the foundation of the modern democratic process. It signifies the difference between a rubberstamp dictatorship where political opponents can be punished for their views and a democratic election where everyone is free to vote for whom they please.

Not so in the state of Georgia. In the 2004 election, 367,777 Georgia voters-more than 10% of the state's electorate-unknowingly gave up the secrecy of their ballot, by taking advantage of the new early-voting process. This new procedure, which uses Direct Record Electronic (DRE) equipment-or, to put in plain English, touch screen machines does not require voters to justify their decision to to vote early. So anyone can cast a ballot in the five days preceding the election, no questions asked. Sounds fair, easy and convenient.

But there's a crucial difference between traditional absentee ballots, i.e., the paper kind, and the electronic absentee votes cast last year in Georgia. The paper ballot comes in an envelope, which is discarded prior to that ballot's getting counted, in order to protect the balloter's identity. With these electronic absentee votes, there is no such protection. In fact, the new ballot is directly traceable to the person who has cast it.

After the July 2004 presidential primary in Georgia, Fulton County Election Superintendent, John Sullivan admitted to the Board of Elections that "early votes are marked with a numbered identification in case they are later challenged". Ironically, while electronic voting equipment does not supply voters with paper receipts to confirm who they cast a ballot for, it does allow the Board of Elections to access and store that information.
http://markcrispinmiller.blogspot.com/2005/06/secret-ballot-compromised-in-georgia.html

[Stevepol]

6. Welcome to DU, Affirm. It looks like you've come to the right place!

Be sure to start frequenting the ERD Forum and add your insights.

[AFFIRM]

9. Thank you

Will do Stevepol thank you and thank DU

[Cos]

7. that's almost orthogonal

Whether or not your ballot is secret, or traceable to you, is a separate issue from whether you vote electronically or on paper. It's just as possible to sneak ballot tracing into paper ballots (through an unobtrusive bar code, for example) as onto electronic ballots. Most electronic voting does have secret ballots. When it doesn't, that's a problem. But it's not a fundamentally new problem.

It is a good argument for open source and public ownership of the voting machines and code, to make it harder to hide traceability.

[Peace Patriot]

8. I don't know, Cos, it's a lot more difficult, logistically, a lot more

expensive, and a lot riskier to covertly scan paper ballots to get an unlawful hidden bar code into a database--without getting caught--than to have the automatic computerization of information by the action of the voter himself or herself. The former requires systematized fraud and lawbreaking, from the printing of the ballots to the unlawful linking of voter and vote as each ballot's information is computerized by hand. The latter is easy as pie--especially with 'trade secret" source code--the automatic identification of a voter and their vote, as the vote is cast on electronic equipment, dumped into a general database that can be searched by law enforcement, prosecutors, Homeland Security, banks, schools and Dick Cheney.

Just think of the difference between sending a letter by snail mail, and by email. Someone wants to snoop in your snail mail, they probably can, but it's logistically difficult, requires people to perform a number of visible actions, and is limited in the NUMBER of people who can be snooped upon, and the WAYS they can be snooped upon. For instance, if the government is looking for anti-war activists, there is simply no way that they can "scan" all of U.S. snail mail for the word "peace." With email, however, all they have to do is get access to a server and they can quickly search millions of emails for key words.

The manipulation of election results by "trade secret" programming code, owned and controlled by far rightwing Bushite corporations, is of course THE main problem we are facing now. That is WHY we have the Bush junta in the White House. But this fascist crowd is looking far beyond that, to easily purge-able, centralized, electronic voter registration databases. Just try to get un-purged--after you have registered to vote and they have knocked you off the rolls--if you have to deal with some Bushite jerk in Washington DC, or Jeb Bush, or Kenneth Blackwell. They are ALREADY purging voting lists by race and by party. It is a short step to using registration information prejudicially on non-voting matters, and to identifying how you actually vote, in addition to which party you belong to and where you live. Just think of the Bushite fascists who may be lurking behind insurance decisions, running pension plans, "scoring" your credit rating, "scoring" your SAT test, weighing you against another candidate for a job, etc., etc.

I think the problem that Affirm has identified may ultimately be even more destructive of democracy than the 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" that Diebold and ES&S are currently giving to Bushites and warmongers in elections. They may, in the end, lose that unfair advantage--if the election reform movement succeeds in achieving open source code--but what OTHER uses can electronic voting databases be put to, even without "trade secret" vote tabulation, and what safeguards are in place to prevent them?