NEWLY DISCOVERED DIEBOLD THREAT DESCRIBED AS 'NATIONAL SECURITY RISK'!

[BradBlog]

NEWLY DISCOVERED DIEBOLD THREAT DESCRIBED AS 'MAJOR NATIONAL SECURITY RISK'!
Systems in Question Were Used Last Week in Ohio Primary, Soon in Pennsylvania, So 'Serious' Few Details Are Being Released
All Diebold Touch-Screen Machines, In All States, Said to be Affected by 'Horrifying' Vulnerability, Systems 'Sequestered' in PA

We've been getting reports since last night and all morning today concerning the story we posted yesterday about the Pennsylvania state warning issued about a "security vulnerability" in all Diebold touch-screen electronic voting machines.

That warning, which has now brought a lock-down on all Diebold systems in PA, where early voting is about to begin prior to their upcoming May 16th primary election, was reported by the Morning Call yesterday. The warning says the serious security vulnerability could allow "unauthorized software to be loaded on to the system."

Details about the warning are still sketchy as those in the know have acknowledged that the problem is so serious, they are hoping to keep the info under wraps until mitigation steps can be taken to safeguard systems.

The BRAD BLOG has been told on the record, however, by one person involved in the matter, that the vulnerability is a "major national security risk."

We have been able to get further quotes, details and information from a number of officials, both on the record and off, in Pennsylvania, elsewhere around the country and at the federal level, as well as from those involved in the discovery of the problem...

COMPLETE STORY:
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00002787.htm

---
Brad Friedman
THE BRAD BLOG - The uprising continues...
http://www.BradBlog.com
VELVET REVOLUTION - The revolution begins...
http://www.VelvetRevolution.us

[Digit]

1. K&R

[Betsy Ross]

31. K&R

:kick:

[stillcool]

2. I don't even know what to think...

anymore.... :kick:

[Born Free]

49. How's it looking for Santorum?

All they need to do is get his polling numbers close enough to steal another election...at least that was the plan, now they need to fight the media to keeep the people from suspecting fraud, it isn't as easy these days. However, I have faith that the media will roll over as usual - we need to get some real investigation, maybe Jon Stewart of Stephen Colbert?

[Catbird]

3. Why I am not surprised? nt/

[jbnow]

48. I AM surprised

Not surprised that the vulnerabilities are there of course but that they noticed and seem to care.
I'm puzzled. The vulnerabilities have been there, that was the big gripe. Is this something new or is the awareness new?

[anoraksia53]

89. These are discoveries of vulnerabilities

that are even more serious, they are harder or impossible to fix. Read thru this post. Some equipment could never be fully secure if someone had already gotten to it.......Wake up people before it's too late!!!!!!

[BigBearJohn]

4. How do we get this to Keith Olbermann???

[WhiteTara]

8. and he can have Dana Milbank

on to say that it isn't as serious as the dems say. I'm very disappointed in Olberman after the Colbert performance. He let Milktoast just trash Colbert without a murmur.

[zann725]

58. Totally agreed. And not to 'trash' KO, but only AFTER bloggers massively

approved of Colbert's performance...did KO later in the week refer to it in a more positive light.

But then KO DOES say there are "stories his producers make him do." I suspect this extends BEYOND benign little stories like TomKat and Brittany.

[Imagevision]

64. Does this news even phase Hillary Clinton?

[Kelvin Mace]

97. Well, once upon a time, Keith

would have listened to us. Then Bev Harris burned that bridge in a fit of ego.

[stepnw1f]

5. Throw the Machines with Diebold Out of Our Govt.

No private company should EVER have the responsibility to count votes. NO WAY!

[ktlyon]

54. and party chairpersons should not be in charge of state elections

How could we let that go twice? I still don't understand how.

[Old and In the Way]

6. So why can states conduct open user evaluations?

These machines need to be vetted publicly to assure that vulnerabilities are understood and closed. If the manufacturer can't or won't do it, they should have their equipment invalidated for use in our elections. Why don't the states make this a minimum criteria for any qualification process for accepting any voting machine in our elections?

[BradBlog]

26. The states don't care...

The reason is because, by and large, the states simply don't give a shit. For the most part, the officials responsible for signing contracts with these companies (like Diebold, ES&S, Hart InterCivic, Sequoia, etc.) are wined and dine by them, told folks who give a damn about Electoral Integrity are tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists, and the folks with the wine and the dinner and the direct access are able to buy their confidence in the bargain.

The *only* reason these problems continue to be revealed, by those of us with no money and no backing (versus the millions being spent by the Voting Machine Companies) is because we just happen to be RIGHT.

Truth trumps lies and phony info every time. It just takes a bit longer for that truth to make its way to the surface (and the national mainstream media). But I'm working on it.

[AuntiBush]

33. You Sure Are... Working on it, Brad.

Outstanding work, I might add. In other words, "we" have to not be afraid and become more active offline.

[Old and In the Way]

39. Thanks Brad....I know you are working on it and I want to thank you for

your efforts. I guess I'm frustrated with Democrats in our state legisklatures who aren't pushing on this. They have to understand the consequences to their own political future if nothing else. This really shouldn't have to be a "from the bottom up" initiative. There should be compeling reasons for all elected Democrats to understand the implications of machines that can be tampered with.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

40. Thank you, Brad

You have been working relentlessly on this, while so many of us have gone dormant. Your tenacity is inspiring.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

80. We shamed our election officials away from the Election Center

"The Election Center"
The Fox Guarding the Hen House:
Read about the Election Center Ethics Conflict, Money Trail, and Bad Ideas & Influence


Our Executive Director of our State Board of Elections was also
on the board of directors of the EC, until we educated the public
about the coziness of the vendors and the EC.


See this for some good reading on the Election Center
http://www.ncvoter.net/ElectionCenter.html

[Peace Patriot]

7. For those who need the info...

This site may be relevant to the current OP:
www.votepa.us (well-organized local group of citizen activists in Pennsylvania, where important legal issues are at stake, including state's rights over election systems)
Provisions of the PA lawsuit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x423739


SOME RESOURCES FOR AMERICAN REVOLUTION II:

Hopeful signs - latest news:

California voters sue the state over Diebold:
www.VoterAction.org is suing the state of California and 18 Calif county registrars on behalf of 25 California voter/plaintiffs, on the illegal Diebold "certification" by Schwarzenegger appointee Bruce McPherson.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2180496
Seven of these counties just promised the judge they would use PAPER BALLOTS, and were dismissed from this lawsuit (4/27/06).
http://kcbs.com/pages/29285.php
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2249205

Maryland rejects Diebold:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x418263

Florida - anti-trust accusations against Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia, re: heroic Florida election official Ion Sancho:
(FLA AG subpoenas the companies)
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,110192,00.html
http://www.tbo.com/news/politics/MGBKSY8W8LE.html
(info & discussion)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2183630

Utah county clerk fights back!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x419226

-----

More resources for American Revolution II:

www.votersunite.org (MythBreakers - easy primer on electronic voting--one of the myths is that HAVA requires electronic voting; it does not.)
www.UScountvotes.org (statistical monitoring of '06 and '08 elections--they need donations)


(Activist sites with links to state activist groups or info)
www.votetrustusa.org (news of this great movement from around the country)
www.votersunited.org (good general info, and state links)
www.verifiedvoting.org (great activist site)
www.solarbus.org/election/index.shtml (fab compendium of all election info)

www.freepress.org (devoted to election reform)
www.bradblog.com (also great, and devoted to election reform)
www.TruthIsAll.net (analysis of the 2004 election)* :patriot: :applause: :patriot:
www.votepa.us (well-organized local group of citizen activists in Pennsylvania, where important legal issues are at stake, including state's rights over election systems)
Provisions of the PA lawsuit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x423739

The Voter Confidence Resolution
http://tinyurl.com/rlnr2 (“We Do Not Consent”)
http://guvwurld.blogspot.com (GuvWurld blog main page)
http://tinyurl.com/amryg (Voter Confidence Resolution

www.debrabowen.com (Calif Senator running for Sec of State to reform election system)
www.johnbonifaz.com (running for Massachusetts Sec of State on strong election reform and antiwar platform)

*Some tributes to TruthIsAll, who is very ill:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x417007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x417231
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x675477

Congressional bills:

Russ Holt's HR 550 requires a real paper ballot, bans secret software in "voting machines", and has more than 170 co-sponsors, but the audit required is too weak, it promotes electronic voting and centralized power, and the secret software might be permitted to continue in the central tabulators (the bill is not clear). To sign the HR 550 petition: http://www.rushholt.com/petition.html
At lot of discussion at DU of the loopholes/pitfalls in HR 550:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x422926
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x421136
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=422967&mesg_id=422967
(Note: Senate Bill-SB 330 and House-HR704 simply require a "voter verified paper audit trail" (VVPAT), which may be best for the moment.)


Also of interest:

Michael Collins (Autorank)'s searing election reform article for New Zealand's Scoop.com
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x971363

Bob Koehler (-- four recent election reform initiatives in Ohio, predicted to win by 60/40 votes, flipped over, on election day, into 60/40 LOSSES!--the biggest flipover we've seen yet; the election theft machines and their masters are now dictating election policy! Title: "Poll Shock" 11/24/05)
http://commonwonders.com/archives/col321.htm

Bob Koehler's latest: "Trust us: Take this box and stuff it" (3/16/06)
http://commonwonders.com/archives/col337.htm
More Koehler:
www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?file=20051124ctnbk-a.txt&catid=1824&code=ctnbk

Amaryllis (Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia lavish lobbying of election officials - Beverly Hilton, Aug. '05)
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x380340

HOWARD DEAN remarks on electronic voting machines 04/06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x994507

------------------------------------------------

Throw Diebold, ES&S and ALL election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!

:think: :patriot: :woohoo: :patriot: :think:

-----------

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it." --Thomas Jefferson, The Declaration of Independence

[AuntiBush]

25. Thanks

Great hopeful links!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

79. need to update Maryland, the Dems blocked passage

the Maryland bill passed unanimously in the House, but once it got to the
Senate, the Dems in charge blocked and killed it.

They took the $20 + million and allocated it towards Diebold electronic poll books.

People need to know that you can't count on political parties.

[Steve A Play]

106. Thanks!

I'll research that and update it accordingly. :)

[dipsydoodle]

9. Hacking is a two edged sword

I'm sure there hackers out there who could rig it so that The Jedi party got 100% of the vote. :)

If you wonder why I said Jedi then let me tell you that when we had out last UK census 90000 people registered Jedi as their religion < oh the power of constantly circulating emails !> and so the UK government now has to recognise it as such. They did however refuse to provide funding.

[MGKrebs]

10. Here in georgia, even if that happened we'd never know.

Because they only have to report results for "qualified" candidates.

Grr.

[Imagevision]

61. How about Here in the US. we would never know when our votes are stolen!

[regnaD kciN]

41. Urban legends never die, apparently...

If you wonder why I said Jedi then let me tell you that when we had out last UK census 90000 people registered Jedi as their religion < oh the power of constantly circulating emails !> and so the UK government now has to recognise it as such.

Not true, according to this authoritative source.

[dipsydoodle]

50. The Oz one

followed on after the one in the UK. The way in which we knew the outcome here in the UK was simply because it was broadcast by both the BBC and ITN new channels on national news. Reference was made at that point to the fact that the government would not provide funding despite being legally obliged to recognise the new religion.

Maybe next time we'll all enter Muslim - that would realy spook them.

[Imagevision]

63. Why isn't John Dean or moveon,org addressing these issues?!!

[nolabels]

85. So who was going to accept gifts from the empire anyway?

A Jedi only needs the force to be with them (well that's what the storyline says anyway)

[evlbstrd]

11. The last line struck me.

"Layson told us that she would discuss the matter with the EAC's Voting System Secretariat, Brian Hancock. We look forward to action by the EAC."

Voting System Secretariat?

[Up2Late]

12. I just want to know when the ReThugs here in Georgia are going to...

...stop saying that everything about the Diebold AccuvoteTS is great, and their is no problem.:banghead:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

82. Georgia's SOS IS a Dem

The folks in Georgia have had to struggle with the Dems, who are protecting Cathy
Cox, SOS who may run for Governor.

This woman had her picture on Diebold sales brochures.

We saw them in NC.

Also, they can't get any help out of Common Cause of Georgia.

It is sad that they can't get help from the perceived "good guys".

[Patsy Stone]

13. Kickety kick!

And: Rec! Thanks.

[Amaryllis]

14. Brad is so on top of this! Thanks, Brad

[eppur_se_muova]

15. What happens when the crooks who jigger the election results are not...

the same crooks who set up the crooked machines? Could agents of a foreign power (say China, Russia, or India, none of which suffers a shortage of computer talent) intervene in our national elections by sending 'hit squads' armed with passwords :lol: and memory cards to steer the election in the direction they favor? Or even dump a Senator who gave them a lot of trouble as a committee chair? Oh, and there's that other country we dare not mention my name, with a long record of covert actions by very capable operatives. A security hole in an American election may very well be most inviting to non-Americans, enemies or "allies".

[katty]

18. bush&co: no borders, no bounderies...on anything THEY do

[happydreams]

20. Already done. Khashoggi (Saudi Arms dealer) and Dubya election

This has been around for awhile. Unbelievable story.

Madame Butterfly" Theresa LePore wasn't always an embattled Palm Beach ballots chief. In the 1980s, she moonlighted as a flight attendant on private planes owned by Saudi weapons dealer Adnan Khashoggi, a middleman in Reagan administration arms sales to Iran.


http://www.slate.com/?id=1006609

[BradBlog]

27. The answer to your questions...

...without giving too much detail is "Yes". To all of the above. And they don't even need the passwords, by the way.

[eppur_se_muova]

75. I guess that's not too surprising. Why would the Chinese, Russians, ...

Saudis, Pakis, Isrealis, etc. etc. NOT have "situation rooms" that swing into action for every American election? If the vote totals can be hacked over the Internet (and that's been demonstrated several times now) doesn't our electoral process come down to a chess match between adversarial cyberops teams, mostly outside our borders?

You would think this would have the paleocons in apoplexy. Election security IS a form of national defense, and should get proportionate attention and oversight.

[meow2u3]

57. Forget Russia and China. What if al-Qaeda wrote the code?

They'd probably write the cheat code that would fraudulently "elect" repukes so they can justify attacking America and making Americans out to be imperialistic tyrants.

[bleever]

59. And Brad, you no doubt remember that "homeland security" issues

were raised about electronic voting (in early 2005, IIRC) and whether these systems contained vulnerabilities specifically forbidden by the Patriot Act.


Great work, as always.

:toast:

[Peace Patriot]

16. This is an amazing OP and revelation..."a major nat'l security risk"!

I can't think of any better way to describe Bushite corporations gaining control over our elections, with "trade secret," proprietary vote tabulation software, and virtually no audit/recount controls. Our very sovereignty as a people--which we exercise through the mechanism of voting--has been gravely compromised by this. The great insecurity and hackability of these machines makes the situation even more mind-boggling. How could this happen? It all started with the "Help America Vote Act" (which some call "The Hack America's Vote Act," or "Help America Vote for Bush Act"), a $4 billion electronic voting boondoggle, pushed through Congress by its two biggest crooks, Tom Delay and Bob Ney--money used to bribe, corrupt and bully election officials around the country, into precipitous purchase of these crapass, Bushite-controlled machines.

HAVA not only permitted "trade secret" programming in these voting machines and central tabulators, it failed to require a paper trail, failed to ban lavish lobbying and "revolving door" employment, and permitted secret industry "testing" of the machines, regulated by a Bush-appointed election commission.

It was a coup, nothing less. The money, the lax regulation, the lax rules--an open invitation to vote rigging--basically destroyed our election system, in two short years (2002-2004), by the Bushite feds forcing these systems on the states. What many don't know is that HAVA does NOT require electronic voting. So any state or county can revert to TRANSPARENT, old-fashioned, paper ballot voting, hand-counted at the precinct level. But $4 billion! Most of them bought it--wanted in on all this money, and power.

That's the sad and sorry tale. The two biggest electronic voting corporations are...

Diebold: Until recently, headed by Wally O'Dell, a Bush-Cheney campaign chair and major fundraiser, who promised (in writing) to "deliver Ohio" to Bush-Cheney in 2004,

and

ES&S: A spinoff of Diebold (similar computer architecture), initially funded by rightwing billionaire Howard Ahmanson, who also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon Foundation (which touts the death penalty for homosexuals, among other things).

Diebold and ES&S have an incestuous relationship; they are run by two brothers, Tod and Bob Urosevich.

These are the people who "counted" 80% of the nation's votes in 2004, under a veil of secrecy.

This is the biggest government scandal in our history, bar none. Yet it has met with near complete silence in the war profiteering corporate news monopolies--not surprising, I suppose (since these same corporate news monopolies DOCTORED their exit polls, late on election day, 2004, to "FIT" the results of Diebold/ES&S's secret vote tabulation formulae; Kerry won the exit polls; Bush won the Diebold/ES&S vote). The Democratic Party leadership's silence is more puzzling--probably a combo of war corruption and fear--but that "Iron Curtain" has shown some cracks recently, in response to a huge grass roots movement for TRANSPARENT elections.

We need to realize that we are in a long term fight for our democracy. Corrupt, entrenched election officials, and the riggable voting systems they are attached to, are not going to be easy to dislodge. The fascists are hanging onto them tooth and nail. They can't win without these riggable machines. We have to be prepared for lost battles and disappointments. We have to be patient, get organized, gather evidence, challenge election results, file lawsuits, and put unrelenting pressure on county/state election officials. And we have to tell people the TRUTH about this situation. They NEED TO KNOW. To experience election defeat after defeat and not know the real reason why has been very disheartening to people. We should engage people in beating the machines with huge turnouts, and in getting rid of the machines.

Bumper sticker: "Help Us Beat the Machines--VOTE!"

ALSO, encourage absentee ballot voting, as long as the system is non-transparent. It's not the ultimate solution, by any means. But it IS a protest against the machines, which is becoming widespread--and any paper ballot is better than no paper ballot, in helping with recounts and challenges.

Never give up on our right to vote! NEVER!

[vickitulsa]

24. I signed up at VerifiedVoting.org a couple of years ago

long before I ever stumbled across DU (yep, I really did just "stumble" in here and man am I glad I did!). I believe that George W. Bu$h's political "machine" stole the election in which he "defeated" Gov. Ann Richards, the very popular incumbent no one expected Dubya to dislodge. Even if they had to do it without electronic voting machines, I still believe to this day they achieved that theft of the Texas governor's office.

Perhaps that experience -- and the difficulty of achieving their goal? -- made them resolve to get hackable voting machines in place so it would be far easier to rig elections. I have even wondered if there wasn't a bit of "staging" going on in Florida during the 2000 election, when the whole world learned what a "chad" was and poor, "old-fashioned" paper ballots were made to look like relics that should be discarded in a modern election.

I'm a "Vietnam-generation" person, whose idea of making our government listen to its people was to march in the streets to demonstrate against that immoral war and for civil rights. I still believe there is a place for that sort of power play, if you will, and I continue to urge young folks to speak out publicly, carry signs and march in the streets, demand our government to bring home the troops.

However, I am extremely grateful many people in this generation are savvy enough and determined enough to stay on this stolen election issue until things are turned around and we can trust our voting system again! Because as you said, PP, the riggable voting machines represent the biggest scandal in American government in all its history. The ability to steal elections is the MOST IMPORTANT of any of the issues facing Americans today, that's what I believe. It absolutely is! Without a fair voting process, we have completely lost our democratic freedom and our power to bring our government back under our control.

So to all those who are fighting this election fraud fight, I just want to give you a big, hearty "THANK YOU!" For all you do, you are appreciated, and I am heartened to see so many victories that you are beginning to pile up! GOODONYA, Team! :)

[Just Me]

55. I've said before and say it again, this regime has engaged in criminal,...

,...fraud against an entire nation. They MUST be stopped because they, themselves constitute a threat to national security.

btw I greatly admire and respect all the excellent postings of your various analyses!!! :hi: Thank you for all your contributions to DU!!!

:yourock:

[Greyskye]

17. K&R for the IMPORTANCE!!!

Happy to give the 30th rec.

:kick:

[drm604]

19. K&R

:kick:

[RogueBandit]

21. Problem--couldn't rig election

I'll be it's a national security risk because they couldn't rig the election. Someone forgot to install the "rig it" chip.

[lovuian]

22. I bet its someone Rove didn't pay!!!

and he's getting revenge...

[Roland99]

23. PAPER BALLOTS!!!!!!

AND INK FOR OUR THUMBS :)

[Imagevision]

Does Kerry get this?? how about Joe Lieberman??

these fools are deliberately pretending these are conpiracy stories...?

[AuntiBush]

28. What the hey!?!

Thank you to everyone actively working on these issues. Not that our MSN wouldn't :sarcasm:

[uppityperson]

29. !

[arwalden]

30. How Can Someone Make An Anonymous Comment "On-The-Record"?

Or did I just mis-read something?

[BradBlog]

46. REad the article and find out...

Yes, it seems you missed something. Read the full article (linked in the original post) and you'll get all the details.

[arwalden]

52. Help Me Out... WHO Exactly Was Speaking "On-The-Record"? This Is Unclear.

The original article (and OP) states:

<< The BRAD BLOG has been told on the record, however, by one person involved in the matter, that the vulnerability is a "major national security risk." >>

If someone is speaking "on the record", then shouldn't they be identified in the same sentence (or the same paragraph) in which their "on-the-record" words are quoted? At the very least, the source of such on-the-record comments should be identified in the following paragraph.

Why was this written using vague terms that are generally reserved for anonymous sources who speak off-the-record (ie: "one person involved in the matter")?

<< Yes, it seems you missed something. >>

Okay, apparently so. What did I miss? I'm just not seeing it. Please help me out. WHO is the person that's speaking on the record?

It doesn't appear that this on-the-record source is clearly identified anywhere in the article. Did you mean to type "off" instead of "on"? Was this phrase being misused by the writer of this story? Or do I just not understand what "on the record" actually means?

[arwalden]

65. Oh Come On!! -- Anyone? Anyone?

Who exactly is speaking "on-the-record"? This quote is the centerpiece of the story... it's in the all-caps headline... so shouldn't we be able to know WHO said it? :shrug:

If people demand accountability from corporate media...then ought not we also demand some standards from alternate sources and bloggers.

Is this an actual news story, or just an editorialized hearsay rumor? Something's definitely missing... I'm eager to learn more facts. Please share them with us.

ACCOUNTABILITY NOW!

LEGITIMACY NOW!

CLARITY NOW!

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

67. I Did Read The Whole Thing, Brad...It's Unclear Who Made That Quote.

<< The information is right there in the story. Who said it, and everything else. >>

Where? I've read the story and it's not clear to me who said it. Can you clarify it for me here? Just a name, that's all I ask.

Fill in the blanks: "(Mr/Mrs/Ms/Dr ______ _____ is the name of the one person involved in the matter, who was speaking on-the-record, and who said the words 'national security risk'."


<< While I have no problem telling you who the source was, >>

So you say. Yet you haven't. --- And the identity of who said it is certainly not very clear in your article. I've directed other people to your article (people whom I regard has having intelligence that's equal or greater than my own) and they too are unable to determine--with any measurable degree of certainty--exactly who it is that made that quote.


<< I'm beginning to wonder (or worse, conclude) from your theatrics that you are either lazy, or being disingenous in your ALL CAPS demands for "ACCOUNTABILITY, LEGITMACY, CLARITY NOW!" >>

Lazy? Disingenuous? Theatrics? --- Come-come... that's not very nice. Why are you making personal attacks? I've not personally attacked you.

As far as using ALL CAPS... I would argue that you're the LAST person who has any room to criticize anyone for doing that.

With regards to my "demands"... Isn't it reasonable for your readers to be able to expect clarity and accountability? I think that most legitimate news sources would not be so grudging in accommodating these simple requests. --- Why does it bother you so much?


<< All of that is there. In spades. And yet, apparently you don't wish to find it out for yourself, which makes me curious as to why.>>

Yes... I've read the article. I think any questions which remain after reading your piece are the fault of the writer, and not that of the reader.


<< So, once again, the story is right here: http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00002787.htm >>

Yes yes... you keep linking to it, but you won't clarify that one point. Just the name, that's all I'm asking. Who said it "on-the-record"?


<< If you have any questions or concerns upon reading the whole thing, I'll be more than happy to try and respond to them. >>

I wonder if that's actually true, Brad. To be honest, I doubt your sincerity.

After all, when we examine how much effort you've spent in trying to insult me, and in insinuating that I cannot read (or that I lack comprehension skills) it just doesn't seem plausible that you'd actually be "happy to try and respond". The exact opposite seems to be the case.

Wouldn't it have just been simpler for you to just answer the question? Can you clarify who the "on-the-record" source it? AND... Does "on-the-record" mean the something different to you than it does to me?

Your reactions puzzle me. If you cannot handle criticism of your work, if you cannot handle simple follow-up questions, then you might be in the wrong business.

[ebayfool]

69. It's Bev Harris. I had to read through it a few times to be sure I was ...

seeing right, myself. I was looking for someone ... else. I thought it was an official or something, but - Harris?

Others get more mileage from her 'statements' - power to 'em. Me ... not so much.

edited to add the snips/cites:

The BRAD BLOG has been told on the record, however, by one person involved in the matter, that the vulnerability is a "major national security risk."

Bev Harris, of BlackBoxVoting.org (BBV), who described the situation as "horrifying" said in a comment posted on BRAD BLOG earlier today that, "The problem is very serious and because primary elections are being held, releasing even a small part of what makes this security hole so dangerous presents an immediate threat to U.S. elections."

"Because the vulnerability is so serious," she wrote, "and until ALL states have been able to implement the FULL recovery path, we can release a redacted version only, but will send an unredacted version to the states," she wrote in another comment earlier today.

She explained when we discussed the matter that even that "FULL recovery path" may not be possible due to the severity of the problem which she describes as "a major national security issue."

[arwalden]

72. Ah-ha! Thank you! Over One Dozen Paragraphs Later...

... in the 19th paragraph the quote in the headline ("major national security risk") is revealed to have come from Bev Harris when she described it as a "major national security issue". (Well... three out of four words were the same. One version is right and one is wrong... but I'll give props for getting 75% of the quote correct. :eyes:)

And even then, the last time that Harris was mentioned (by name) was three paragraphs earlier. For the sake of clarity, Harris's name should be used at least once in each paragraph that quotes her. Within the same paragraph, I think the reader would understand that references to "she" or "she also said" or "she continued" would be referring to Harris. --- I think it's a mistake to assume that ever reader would easily understand who "she" is when it's been a full three paragraphs since the last mentioning of Harris' name.

Perhaps it was technically accurate, and it may have made perfect sense to the writer (such things usually do) but for the casual reader, it lacked clarity.

It would seem to me that for such stories, the identity primary source of the story (in this case Ms. Harris) would be revealed early on. Unless it's an anonymous source--and this wasn't the case--there's no real reason to use vague identifiers when referring to the source (as was done in this piece). It's imperfect and imprecise and it certainly didn't make sense to use them in conjunction with someone who's speaking "on-the-record".

I AGREE WITH YOU, DJmaddox1... the way the story was written and the words that were being used (in particular the phrase "one person involved in the matter") it certainly gave the impression that the quote was from some insider or from someone with an authoritative inside knowledge.

Hell... by those standards, ANY reporter or activist is "involved in the matter". That sort of thing causes me to question the integrity of previous and even future stories.

At best it's an inexperienced beginner's mistake, at worst, it's an attempt to intentionally mislead or to make the story appear more believable, (or more important) that it might otherwise appear to be. It reminds me of a technique that an opposition activist might do in a press-release, it's not really up to any journalistic standards that I'm aware of.

My best guess to try and explain such incongruent writing, is that the author writes a great many stories with quotes that are attributed to anonymous sources who are "close to the story" and who have "inside knowledge" etc etc. One tends to use such vague phrases habitually and even when quoting an on-the-record source... the vague identifiers just slip out subconsciously. Perhaps.

I certainly understand and appreciate that we can't expect the same editorial quality and professional writing style that one gets from other traditional news and editorial sources... but I must say that the writing style, the content, the editing and clarity of this particular article leave a lot to be desired. Particularly true in light of the fact that this was something that had been posted and featured in the LBN forum.

[Zhade]

91. Harris? The confirmed freeper?

Might as well trust Fox News!

[arwalden]

99. Thus Explaining The Cryptic, Evasive, And Aggressive Replies.

I figured as much.

[Steve A Play]

102. I just have to ask,

Do you also not trust the findings of Harri Hursti, Dr. Herbert Thompson, Security Innovation, Ion Sanco, Bruce Funk, and Susan Pynchon?

Or are they all in on it with Bev, Brad, and the rest of us too? :rofl:

[arwalden]

105. I Just Have To Answer...

... you completely missed the point of that to which I was referring when I mentioned "cryptic, evasive and aggressive replies".

I've had no interactions with ANY of those people... so I don't have a clue why you think they might be relevant to Brad's (non-) responses. Since the one and only person I had interaction with was Brad, I must admit my confusion what that list of people has to do with the questions I asked Brad.

To review: I asked a simple, direct, and straightforward question. It was easy to answer, yet he declined to do so and instead engaged in evasive non-responses and personal insults and attacks. In fact, he spent more effort (and typed many more characters) being evasive, than he would have if he had just typed the words "Bev Harris".

It makes me wonder why someone would go to so much trouble to avoid providing a truthful and direct answer. It's all very curious.

<< Or are they all in on it with Bev, Brad, and the rest of us too? >>

I'm afraid that I wouldn't know anything about that, Steve.

[AuntiBush]

32. Thank you Brad, Big-time!

for staying on this. You are to be seriously commended.

Everyone should checkout Brad's info on this: http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00002787.htm

[Nothing Without Hope]

34. K & R. Can the light finally be breaking though? n/t

[lfairban]

35. Ohio

Earlier this year, when McPherson was considering whether or not to re-certify Diebold in California after the Diebold optical-scan systems were revealed, in no uncertain terms, to be hackable in a Leon County, Florida mock-election test, he commissioned an independent analysis of the flaws in the Diebold memory cards which allowed for the hack to be carried out without a trace being left behind.

That report confirmed the Leon County hack, and found 16 other bugs described as "a more dangerous family of vulnerabilities" which "go well beyond" what was discovered in Leon County. Remarkably, after the report was issued, McPherson certified Diebold's systems in the state despite those dire warnings from his own security team.

And all this should have been known before last Tuesday's election in Ohio. Why should we worry just because Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, the person in charge of elections in Ohio, was on the ballot running for his party's nomination for Governor.

He won, by the way.

http://www.kenblackwell.com/default.aspx

[BillORightsMan]

86. Blackwell & Diebold & Ney & HAVA

...all seem to be tied together.

I hope some inspired attorneys and operatives are able to put
ole Kenny B. out to pasture making small rocks out of big ones on this.

We'll never know if the Ohio Primary was legit until these cretins are exposed
for the graft, corruption and smarmy lawlessness that has gone on in Ohio.

I can't wait for the lawsuits and an Ohio primary DO-OVER!

News like this makes my skin crawl.

Jennifer Brunner for Ohio Secretary of State!!!

[Zorra]

36. All electronic voting machines endanger national security. End of

story.

[Steve A Play]

37. More from Black Box Voting.org

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/27634.html?1146885047

Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 08:10 pm:

This week, the state of Pennsylvania sequestered all Diebold touch-screens to implement an emergency security measure. Several more states are expected to follow Pennsylvania.

The state of Utah has known that a critical security risk exists in its Diebold TSx touch-screens, but chose to punish the courageous public official responsible for identifying the defect instead of taking any efforts to learn what the problem is and correct it.

Below is a link to the security alert faxed to the Utah Lt. Governor, state elections director, Emery County attorney and Emery County commissioners on March 24.

application/octet-streamDiebold TSx warning
An Open Letter To The Administrators Of The Emery County Government.doc (35.3 k)


Shoot the messenger

Utah officials ignored the warning entirely, and instead flew Diebold attorneys to Emery County on the governor's airplane, where the Diebold lawyers were allowed to sit into a private executive session. In this session, a decision appears to have been made to block Emery County Elections director Bruce Funk from executing his duties.

In Utah, the law requires that any employment decision be publicly noticed (it was not) and the county attorney is the designated counsel for county elections officials (County Attorney David Blackwell chose to side with Diebold against Bruce Funk). According to a tape recording of the public portion of the meeting, Bruce Funk repeatedly requested an attorney, but this was denied to him.

Funk was an eye witness to the security testing by Harri Hursti and Security Innovation, Inc. He knew first-hand that the machines represented a significant security risk. County commissioners told him he was going to be required to use the machines anyway, Diebold refused to provide a letter in writing indicating that machines it sold weren't used or loaded with inappropriate software; Diebold then told Emery County that it was going to cost $40,000 to check over the machines (the Diebold contract limits them to charging just over $1200 per day, Emery County has just 40 machines, and re-flashing all machines with a new system takes no more than 10 minutes per machine). Funk was told that he would not be permitted to watch Diebold technicians work on the machines, and they had already "visited" his machines while he was out of town for a day.

Legal issues

Because Funk was denied a lawyer, he didn't know that a little-known 1929 law in Utah was sometimes used by public officials to browbeat each other out of office. If certain public officials gang up and intimidate another public official, threatening punitive measures and dire consequences, urging resignation, if the targeted official tenders even a tentative and conditional resignation, under some interpretations that is held to stick. Diebold and the county succeeded in browbeating Funk into temporary submission; he quickly notified them in writing that he had no intention of resigning, so they locked him out of his office.

Black Box Voting has assisted Funk in securing qualified legal counsel and is underwriting the public policy legal actions to defend Funk against Diebold's actions -- ironically, with Diebold's own money, won in a Diebold false claims suit in California. A $76,000 fee was paid to Black Box Voting founder Bev Harris, and was subsequently contributed as a restricted donation for public interest litigation. The Diebold money is now helping support the fight by whistleblower Stephen Heller, who is facing retaliatory action by Diebold's attorneys. Diebold false claim funds are also underwriting legal actions to help Bruce Funk fight Diebold's retaliation.

In Funk's case, the lack of public notice and failure to put his employment matter on the agenda likely outweighs the 1929 law, as does the county's refusal to provide him with counsel, failure to allow him to sit in on the private meeting with Diebold lawyers concerning his employment, and insistence that he take responsibility for elections held on machines he knew to be insecure.

To date, Emery County has refused to provide Funk with either a transcript or a tape or their behind-closed-doors meeting with Diebold attorneys.

Diebold's behavior is even more problematic

Experts for the state of California and the state of Pennsylvanie have now confirmed the seriousness of the vulnerabilities discovered in Emery County. Diebold was cornered by Pennsylvania voting system examiner Michael Shamos, and was given the choice of telling the truth or lying. Shamos had already sequestered one of the machines and was prepared to examine it himself it Diebold lied. Only after this did Diebold admit to knowing about the security vulnerability, which is designed into the system.

Black Box Voting is completing reports with Harri Hursti and subsequently with Security Innovation (which will serve as peer review for Hursti Report II). The Hursti Report on findings from Emery County will detail multiple back doors built into the system. This report will be released to the public in redacted form on May 10. The unredacted version will be provided to federal and state regulators, including the Dept. of Homeland Security's "CERT" alert system.

Letter to Utah officials

Here is a quote from the preliminary information which Utah officials chose to ignore (except for locking Mr. Funk out of his office):
quote:

To: Gary Herbert, Lt. Governor of the state of Utah
Cc: David Blackwell, Emery County Attorney
Bruce Funk, Emery County Elections
Emery County Commissioners
Michael Cragun, Utah State Elections Director

Mar. 24, 2006

Dear Sirs,

This is a formal notification that a security defect was found in the Diebold TSx system in Emery County, Utah by professional security experts from Security Innovation, Inc. and Mr. Harri Hursti. Because of the severity of the defects, the formal reports are being prepared with sufficient precision to garner the attention of the appropriate authorities with jurisdiction over this matter. These authorities, of course, include each of you who are receiving this notice, in addition to federal authorities in the general area of computer security.

...

The security problems found in Emery County present potentially catastrophic security defects for upcoming elections. The issue extends outside of Emery County to additional states. The identified security vulnerability appears to be:

1) Persistent, with the ability to survive through multiple elections;

2) Difficult to detect, not only for elections official but also for security experts and even for Diebold technicians;

3) Flexible, in that the exploit can selectively affect any particular election, candidate or ballot question;

4) Accessible, in that no password, supervisor access or special equipment is needed to invoke the exploit;

5) Difficult to eradicate with any patch, reinstallation, or cleaning procedure;

6) Likely to be exploited, because the skills needed to exploit the hole are possessed by many programmers and the information needed to conduct the exploit is generally available to the public. The time needed to exploit the security hole is in the range of a week’s planning time and 60 seconds for execution.


A pattern of security failures

The testing in Emery County follows another set of tests by Black Box Voting in Leon County, Florida, which documented security flaws in the GEMS central tabulator and the Diebold AccuVote optical scan system.

A pattern of retaliation by Diebold

Like Bruce Funk, Leon County Supervisor of Elections Ion Sancho faced retaliation by Diebold and other voting companies. Diebold refused to honor its contract with Sancho, forcing him out of HAVA compliance. The only other authorized vendors then blackballed Sancho, refusing to sell to him.

The Florida Attorney General is now investigating Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia for collusion and antitrust violations.

Diebold has also been participating in orchestrated smear campaigns against Black Box Voting and its founder, Bev Harris, using fake Internet "screen names," identity theft (posing as board members of Black Box Voting to post defamation), organizing fake news Web sites smearing election integrity advocates in general and Black Box Voting/Bev Harris specifically. Some Diebold employees tag-team with the Diebold smear squad to point elections officials toward the cyberlibel. The Diebold Internet smear squad also includes an individual from North Carolina.

Black Box Voting, together with a team of volunteer researchers, has now obtained documents and photographs which directly tie these Internet libel campaigns to Diebold. A more detailed article on the Diebold Internet smearing, accompanied by documents and photographs, will be published here after the dust has settled on the Diebold touch-screen security failures.

PERMISSION TO REPRINT GRANTED, WITH LINK TO http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[Trajan]

43. AH ... Bev Harris .....

So many here despise her .... But is it her, or one of these libelous teams which are despised ? ...

I didn't really care that she received money from the CA case .... She worked pretty fucking hard on this issue ..... (many others did too .... yes ... )

This is TREMENDOUS work here ....

Thanks Bev .... Has it been that long since we talked of secret back doors ? ...

It seems so .... good luck ....

[Zhade]

94. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x340188

[Kelvin Mace]

96. Her "tremendous work"

involved burning her source and setting him up for three felony counts.

And of course, she drove Diebold right out of that state.

Wait, that was North Carolina.

[Zhade]

93. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x340188

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

38. Diebold's response:

Nuh-uh.

On-record response of officials:

Nuh-uh.

On-record response from White House:

Nuh-uh.

On-record response of Faux-watching public:

Nuh-uh....bbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... :boring:

[Justice Is Comin]

42. Brad, I don't know what your

final imapct will be, but if we ever have fair elections again, you deserve a medal of honor.

You're like the CPU of a computer silently running in the background. Most of us have no clue what's going on in there, but we just turn it on and it works.

:patriot:

[BradBlog]

47. Thanks, Justice...

if we ever have fair elections again, you deserve a medal of honor.

Uh, oh. At that rate, I may be waiting quite a while for that medal! ;-)

[EC]

44. I guess we now know just how scared Sanatorium (sp?) is...

and how he got elected...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. K & R.

[In Truth We Trust]

51. K&R- Hand counts NOW!!! Democracy NOW!!!

[kestrel91316]

53. This is a SURPRISE??

Not to me..............

[Rex]

56. As Bartcop would say

Bradblog, 'the most important blog on the internet'. :evilgrin:

[Imagevision]

60. This story needs to right up there with the phoney Iraq war!! Dems

this November what?? -- simply expcct an honest election and even worse they seem like they couldn'r care less!!!

[Imagevision]

62. Diebold memory cards which allows for the hack to be carried out

without a trace being left behind.

[greatauntoftriplets]

68. Exactly who is the primary source of the story???

Maybe you are quoting Deep Throat? And didn't he die?

:shrug:

Certainly, you have multiple sources, some of whom should be named? Or is it Bev Harris entirely? If she told me that it was sunny today, I'd go look out the window for myself.

[brentspeak]

70. Er, um, you're quoting BEV HARRIS as a source??????

Hey, Bradblog -- if you want more people to take your articles seriously, you should limit your sources strictly to reliable sources.

Scam artists and nutcases are usually not considered reliable sources.

[Boredtodeath]

71. You know what's the saddest part?

All Bev Harris' findings were discovered more than 3 years ago by the DUers who tore the source code to hell and back for months.

Not even the Hursti Hack is new information - DUers discovered the "Hursti Hack" more than 3 years ago.

This will also be nothing more than a well known problem which she's now re-using in hopes of fundraising. Based on this thread so far, I'd say it's working.

[Kelvin Mace]

98. How many times can she re-package the same

information?

[Boredtodeath]

100. I doubt much longer

When the backups of those forum discussion go public.

[Steve A Play]

107. Really? You had the software to the TSx and TR6

3 years ago? :wow:

Could you please post any evidence of your claim so we can compare what you found 3 years ago with what Harri Hursti claims in his new report about the TSx and TR6 security tests?

Thanks! :)

[Zhade]

92. Indeed - confirmed freeper Harris.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x340188

Brad, buddy, get up to speed. She's USELESS now that her paranoia and greed have taken over.

[greatauntoftriplets]

73. You are using the discredited Bev Harris as a source???

:boring:

[arwalden]

74. Maybe It's Fundraising Time?

:shrug:

[ebayfool]

76. Always, always! And still elbowing her way in front of the crowd for ...

credit! Reminds me of the DU wars when she threatened anyone who she perceived as blocking her view in the mirror.

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00002780.htm#25
Her response to John Gideon when he states that Bruce Funk deserves credit & is the real hero for taking the risk on this?

sniplets/

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00002780.htm#26
This is not a story about California scientists, or electionline.org, or John Gideon, or even Brad Friedman. As Brad has so eloquently written here, attribution is not about ego, it's about credibility. This is a Black Box Voting project.

We're very close. We should all be working together on this, but it is difficult when egos get in the way and strip or minimize appropriate attribution of who's responsible for doing the work on this particular project.

It's not scientists in California.
It's not John Gideon, though you do wonderful things.
It's not even Brad Friedman. He's reporting on the results and meltdown produced by this Black Box Voting project.

It's not too much to ask for the same courtesy everyone else gets. That's all we ask and, at this point, insist upon.

------------
Some things never change, some people never change.

I'm still waiting to hear her take back her statement at FreeRepublic that Andy didn't have cancer nor a "scary prognosis". For that matter, her telling the freepers that she thought Dems were stealing votes/elections was too far for my bullshit meter. Even some of the freepers could tell she was playing both sides!

And her crap @ anyone that points out her shortcomings is part of some vast 'get bev conspiracy' shows her inflated sense of her own importance in the election reform movement ... there's a whole lot of folks working in it that don't come w/the hyperbolic-breaking-report/film-to-be-released-any-day-never-seems-to-come-don't-point-that-out-traitor-what-are-you-doing-I'll-sue-you baggage that she travels with!

IMO

[kster]

88. FUN TO WATCH, ITS PATHETIC

BUT NONETHELESS ITS FUN TO WATCH. ITS GETTING VERY OLD GUYS/GALS.

[greatauntoftriplets]

77. You are amusing.....

She never got a penny from me. I could not do it. Andy always understood, even when he worked for her. It made me feel bad, but in the end....

[ebayfool]

81. Andy loved you - I remember that from those days,auntie!

And you were there for him when it counted the most.

Your name (along w/a very few others) always gives me an 'Andy Pause' when I see it. That's a good thing, being someone that is forever tied to a warm feeling of caring for another. You held him close when it was needed, & there's not a greater accomplishment to be had. It was, for taking place in such a public way, beautiful to see.

Bev's name is forever, in my mind, tied to the most hurtful, evil, damnable side of that 'Andy Pause'. If there's ever a Karma call, she's in deep ...!

Andy had a true heart, he was a believer in what BBV was doing. It's just horrible that Bev hurt him & BBV w/her theatrics & dishonor.

I'm still avid @ election reform, just (unlike repugs) selective @ my leaders & heroes.

[flyingobject]

83. sweet guy, got treated badly, very badly

The Stalking of Andy Stephenson
Source: DemocraticUnderground.com post, July 12 2005

I have lived for the last ten weeks with Andy Stephenson’s cancer. And in the most useless way. I couldn’t take it away, couldn’t relieve him of it, couldn’t mind it for a few hours so he could be freed to do the work he so loved...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=383284&mesg_id=383284

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

78. this must be why Diebold left North Carolina

Diebold has a touchscreen manufacturing plant in Lexington NC,
but won't sell voting machines here in NC.

Diebold was certified - we tried to overturn certification of all of the vendors,
but lost in court.

Still they took off, but on their way out the door they offered to
help change our law.

Their lobbyist resigned at the end of March, so I hope they are gone for good.

What Scared Diebold Away?
Our law requires the vendors to notify our state if there are any problems with the software or
malfunctions. If they don't, there could be civil and felony criminal penalties.


When there was the problem with the ES&S memory cards, the vendor notified the state, and
all memory cards were recalled. The next batch was tested, every single one.

We had about 20 that didn't work across the state, in 100 counties.
Each county had a spare memory card for every machine, so we were fine.
Our counties always have kept spare memory cards/packs for their optical scan.
They also always have spare machines.

Our biggest problems were with people who forgot to flip the "on" switch to the optical scanners.
But for once, we had voter verified paper ballots, and the voters liked them.

I hope that we will get more transparency, and get more of the disabled out to vote.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

84. NC's Diebold lobbyist resigned end of March

We take this as a good sign in NC, considering they have a manufacturing plant.

Actually, the lobbyist was not happy when Diebold tried to
gut our law.

Steve Metcalf, former democratic NC state senator turned Diebold lobbyist.
Diebold Election Systems, Inc. (Resigned 3/27/2006)
http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/lobbyists/Lobbyist.aspx?PId=5080

[flyingobject]

87. alert!

[anoraksia53]

90. well done and applause to Brad and BBV and all others

involved in this breaking story or should I say stories....and the discussion over at BradBlog with Jody Holder and a past election director about all this is pretty cool.

Don't be surprised when some people out there or here try to attack you, too, Brad, cause it just shows what a great job your doing. Lots of us can see thru the smear tactics and we know the Truth.

Thanks Brad for keeping all this voting machine slime in the light of day cause only sunlight will get rid of all the scum. ES&S, Sequoia, Hart and Diebold better watch out, you are breaking great stories time after time so keep it up......maybe we'll get our democracy back after all.


:yourock:

[Zhade]

95. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x340188

FUCK that freeper shitbag. She helped kill Andy.

[Pastiche423]

101. What he said

Anything tainted w/her is not credible.

[kster]

103. Welcome to the DU

You learned real fast how to read around some of the BULLSHIT going on here at the DU. :toast:

[anoraksia53]

104. yeah it's pretty amazing crap--and some of these dudes here

think ELECTIONS are bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There's good stuff too anyways, kinda like the grass growing up in the cracks between the sidewalks--ya can't keep a good thing down.