Because I'm not as innocent as I'd like to be, before I donate

[EFerrari]

to the legal fund, I need Brad to disclose that grifter's position in this suit.

On edit: If she has none, I humbly apologize. If she does, I'm also sorry to bring up the topic.

[IndyOp]

1. SF - Link? Is this a continuation of discussion on another thread? (nt)

[EFerrari]

2. Here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x439181

[IndyOp]

5. You might want to post your question on that thread or PM Brad -

I've not read anything that indicated that BBV was involved.

:(

[EFerrari]

6. I agree.

:(

[EFerrari]

7. And I have now done both of IndyOp's suggestions.

Someone please tell me how wrong I am. Please.

[BradBlog]

40. It's locked...

So I can't reply on that thread either. Hopefully my replies here will suffice and assuage your concerns...

Brad

[Kip Humphrey]

3. Who?

[EFerrari]

4. That grifter that ripped Andy off for his health care and sat

at Free Republic and denied he was ill.

That grifter.

I really hope I'm just being a huge pain in the @ss, and am fully prepared to make amends if I misstep.

I need Brad or someone to make this disclosure BEFORE I turn a penny over.

[EFerrari]

8. No answer. That's disappointing.

I was hoping I was having a paranoid attack.

But, I still hold out the hope that I am.

:kick:

[BradBlog]

35. I answered you 5 times...And you replied 5 times...

What do you mean "no answer"?!

Good lord...

[Melissa G]

9. kick n/t

[EFerrari]

10. So, will the grifter be joining the lawsuit later?

Does she already have press conferences planned?

What is the silence about?

I'd really like to know. I can't imagine her resisting this opportunity. Why not just be up front, for pete's sake?

[greatauntoftriplets]

11. I think you have hit the nail on the head....

The silence is deafening.

[EFerrari]

12. What is the matter with these people.

[greatauntoftriplets]

13. Exactly.

For reasons that you certainly share, I have no use for that grifter.

:evilfrown:

[BradBlog]

37. What nail? I think you have hit yourselves on your heads...

There is hardly "silence". I have, and will continue to answer every question that I can. As I have for SFEXPAT2000 via the private mail she sent.

If, however, you guys wish to derail what could potentially be the most important election protection issue between here and November by injecting some twisted cloud of suspicion based on nothing other than...well, I admit, I don't even know what it's based on.

I don't know what the hell this silliness is about to be frank...I'll presume there is no insidious intent, however. AT least I'll hope that's the case.

[EFerrari]

43. You know, Brad, there's no need to attack any one. It's not useful n/t

[BradBlog]

69. Neither is injecting doubt and suspicion where none is necessary....

Please send private mail and/or check with sources before filing a series of posts all of which have had very serious consequences. All for no good reason, other than you didn't wait to hear from either myself, or someone else associated with the effort.

DU has locked down one of the threads, others have unnecessarily joined in the "something doesn't smell right" campaign, all of which has had a direct effect over the last 12 hours in the important fundraising going on to try and AFFORD the fight for integrity in the Busby/Bilbray matter (which is as much about ALL races this November as it is about anything else!)

It is not easy fighting this fight with no standing organization good to go on the ground, and with the bad guys having all the money and the good guys having ZERO.

I hope understand. The hour or two spent trying to assuage this wholly unnecessary "firefight" at DU has been very costly the extremely time-sensitive efforts on the ground in SD and elsewhere.

I hope you understand

[EFerrari]

73. But I did wait. How long do people usually wait to be verbally

abused by you, Brad? Longer than a day, I take it.

And, I don't share your view that this was an "unneccesary firefight".

I hope you understand.

[BradBlog]

36. As I mentioned in reply to your several private mails...

>>So, will the grifter be joining the lawsuit later?<<

As you're clearly referring to Bev Harris and/or BBV, as I told you, she has nothign to do with any lawsuit, I've heard no plans or interest from her in joining any lawsuit, and any lawsuit filed would be a California action besides as far as I know, and she is neither a resident nor voter of California.

>>Does she already have press conferences planned?<<

You could ask her, but I strongly doubt it. If she does, I know absolutely nothing about any such plans.

>>What is the silence about?<<

What "silence" are you talking about?!!

>>I'd really like to know. I can't imagine her resisting this opportunity. Why not just be up front, for pete's sake?<<

I have been up front with you in reply to every question you PM'd me. I'm sure you'll forgive me if I'm unable to read every note that you may happen to post on various forums here. Though I do try my best to do so.

Brad

[EFerrari]

14. This is very simple. Someone tell me that that grifter

will not benefit from this fund drive.

Please.

[EFerrari]

15. And I have now formally asked the admins about who benefits

from this drive, including a question about a banned member.

[Wilms]

16. What made you think bbv is involved in the first place? n/t

[EFerrari]

17. How is that helpful? n/t

[Wilms]

18. Perhaps I'm being selfish.

It would be helpful to me as I try to understand why you think bbv is involved in the first place.

Was their some kind of reference? Or connection?

[EFerrari]

19. Wilms, my mentor, this is my thinking. I'll just lay it out so you

or anyone can check behind me.

I asked who was being represented by the fee we are being asked to raise. And I got a reply off list. The reply was, Brad wasn't releasing that information until Monday.

Then I started asking in earnest. I mailed Brad and others.

I was told that that grifter had nothing to do with this effort.

But, I know her. And I know this opportunity is irresistable to her.

So I asked, will she join the suit later? does she have a press conference planned? And similar questiones.

Brad questioned my relation to objective reality.

That's where we are.

If my relation to objective reality is flawed, I will make amends.

That's all.

Beth

[MelissaB]

20. Just so you know...

You aren't alone in wondering what role if any she will play in this.

[EFerrari]

21. It's a sad day when we have to ask these questions.

But, it would be worse not to ask.

We will get this done, no matter what, because we care and because we can.

:toast:

[Wilms]

22. I sortof see.

bbv has been, er, sensational and might find this attractive/lucrative.

bbv was involved in the Qui Tan (or whatever) suit.

bbv promised a recount in 2004 and didn't come through.


If it's stuff like that, I can imagine it crossing your mind. But I otherwise don't get the concern. Sure, logically, we haven't ruled anything out, but it seems more of a stretch without any thing more suggesting otherwise.


Here's another thing, and I know you know but I'll say it anyway. It really hurt losing Andy, especially with the way it went down. Perhaps grief is calling at this anniversery time. I wouldn't imagine it wouldn't. It's for healing.

[EFerrari]

23. Thank you for your kindness. And so I can imagine that

you'd understand my concern, in the absence of a straight answer from a number of our ER colleagues who could be forthcoming on this question.

The silence is deafening.

It's just unfortunate.

Thank you, Wilms.

[BradBlog]

34. Beth, feel free to post the mail I sent to you...

...Since you have misrepresented it.

I told you in those notes that BBV has nothing to do with the current efforts concerning the Busby/Bilbray CA50 fight/organization. I responded to a series of 5 notes from you to that effect, responding similarly every time.

You told me I removed some Andy note or something, and I told you I had no idea what you were talking about, that I've never removed a post in my life (not from DU, not from BRAD BLOG) that I know of, but if you had any information to the contrary to feel free to share it with me. I'm unaware of anything you're referring to.

There are folks working their asses of to fight an egregious violation of election security and integrity issues in San Diego.

I'll respond in more detail to other questoins momentarily when I read the comments in this thread.

I made the ridiculous mistake of going out to get my first meal all day at 8pm tonight and came home to find whatever self-destructive firefight seems to be going on here, and my email server attacked so that I can't currently send or receive email. So I'm at a bit of a disadvantage for the moment.

I will try to answer all questions here, but it's appreciated if you could honestly characterize the responses I gave you in reply to your private mail.

Brad

[EFerrari]

45. Ridiculous, self destructive, dishonest.

Do you have any other descriptors you'd like to toss out here?

I hope you get some sleep, Brad.

[EFerrari]

24. I have the word of someone I trust that grifter will not benefit

from my donation or from my support. I thank him for his confidence.

Why this had to be so drawn out, I don't know.

I thought we were pretty much all done with that grifter here.

[IndyOp]

27. I am glad to hear it. I am sorry it took so long for you to get a reply.

I thought, when I read one of your posts above that maybe Brad is 'holding' the information because of some 'angle' about getting the recount approved to go ahead, not information about who will be involved. I've not seen BBV mentioned anywhere in the lists of people/organizations that are supporting the Busby/Bilbray investigation. Maybe I've missed it... :shrug:

Beth - If this isn't the right occasion for you to give, then just let it go. Buy some flowers and take them down to the bay and sit and talk with Andy for a while and toss petals into the water. Take some time to take care of yourself. Andy would want that very much... :hug: :hug: :hug:

[EFerrari]

28. This isn't about Andy but about a very predictable situation

ripe for abuse.

I don't know how to soften that. And, I'd feel really remiss if I didn't bring it up.

I have nothing in the world to gain from bringing this up. You know or can know how worried I've been about CA ever since they drove Shelley from office. CA is the new OH. So, I officially have less than nothing to gain from bringing this up.

Imagine that.

/typo

[BradBlog]

38. About Andy...

Beth - As we discussed in private email, Andy was a very close friend. We talked very frequently about all manner of issues related and otherwise. I would not do anything, ever, that I felt he would not approve of. Ever.

In the meantime, this apparently self-induced paranoia deciding there is some massive "deafening silence" because you posted something in a thread on DU which was not answer for an hour or something (in the meantime, I responded to, I believe 5 private emails) is unfortunate.

I don't know what else I can do to answer your concerns. But I will try.

Brad

[EFerrari]

41. Brad, I'm not paranoid. Paranoid people don't ask questions,

they know too much. lol

I asked a question I believe sometime on Saturday evening and tried to ask it quietly. I'll not take up with you what Andy would or would not have approved of. He's not here and I'm not a mind reader.

Finally, it's only money. Good luck with the suit. We need 49 just like it.

[garybeck]

68. Personally I think this is waste of time.

the money is going to pay for the recount. the question should simply be whether or not you trust the people collecting the money, to make sure it all goes to the recount, or if you think they are going to give it to ANYONE else, regardless of who it is.

I just don't see any reason to suspect that Brad would take your money and give it to BBV.

Seriously folks, FAR too much time is wasted on this.

[EFerrari]

72. I couldn't agree more. Far too much. n/t

[troubleinwinter]

75. Where is it said "that the money is going to pay for the recount"?

I have read nothing indicationg that it is to pay for a count or recount.

It is said to be for a 'retainer' for an attorney for some "folks".

The money is being sent to VR. BBV is a part of VR (an affiliate organization).

[Boredtodeath]

25. I'm with you

I'd like to see a list of the organizations involved before I cough up a dime.

This smells to high heaven........

[EFerrari]

26. This all really upsets me because, sans BH, I'd be a high kicking

cheer leader on DU.

And then for emlev and Brad not to commit in public, well, that is malodorous as well.

My desire not to be fucked over is just slightly more urgent than my desire to clean up our elections.

But there is at least one DUer who could give me a coherent narrative. I want to trust him.

And, for the record, my faith in this forum has just plummeted. And, that's too bad because this is the most effective, focused group of people I've ever had the privilege to read.

[emlev]

29. Emlev weighing in

The "deafening silence" you've heard from me since you posted this earlier this afternoon is because I haven't been online. I've only had a few minutes here or there to spend on this issue today and did it checking the other thread. When you first asked the question on the other thread, it was about who the attorney will be representing. Because the folks working on this all come from different organizations--which are listed all over the place on threads about the CA50 situation--I realized it was unclear to me exactly who would be identified as represented by the attorney. It's a more complicated question than it seems because there are a bunch of different angles being pursued simultaneously by overlapping but not identical groups of people. I can't say more in this public arena, which is why I tried to take the conversation offline.

It seems to me that you've now received several clear responses that BBV is not involved. Can we stop them from having their own press conference on this or any other topic? I don't think so. I understand your concerns. There are all sorts of possibilities of our efforts being interfered with; that is only one of them. Those possibilities only make it more important that we stick together as much as possible.

You know, those of us who are trying hard to raise money for this attorney have worked many many hours without seeing a cent. It might help to remember that.

I also ask you not to give up on this forum or those of us you've previously trusted here because we weren't here to answer your questions as quickly as you'd like. We are very, very busy and not checking DU every minute.

I'd like to know what else it is you need at this point, sfexpat, in order to stand down on the implications that we're deceiving you?

[EFerrari]

30. So, are you telling me that you don't know who you're raising this

money for?

"The "deafening silence" you've heard from me since you posted this earlier this afternoon is because I haven't been online. I've only had a few minutes here or there to spend on this issue today and did it checking the other thread. When you first asked the question on the other thread, it was about who the attorney will be representing. Because the folks working on this all come from different organizations--which are listed all over the place on threads about the CA50 situation--I realized it was unclear to me exactly who would be identified as represented by the attorney. It's a more complicated question than it seems because there are a bunch of different angles being pursued simultaneously by overlapping but not identical groups of people. I can't say more in this public arena, which is why I tried to take the conversation offline."


I raised this question more than 24 hours ago, when I still had every hope of supporting this effort. I hope you and the crew involved hasn't been so burdened that this very simple question couldn't be answered.

And it is very curious that any person asking such a simple question should be so addressed. You don't work for wages, neither do I. But I have put in more hours than I would ever wish on you trying to repair what that grifter has spoiled.

And so have many people here, to whom I apologize for being overlooked.

Funny, how your response is framed to isolate me. Unfortunately, there are many of us who have the same questions I've voiced and who have all the time needed to get them answered. So, attempt to isolate me at your own risk, emlev, because I'm old and I have better insurance.

In the moment, I still have the same questions. Who are the plaintiffs in this suit and will BBV join them?

It's very simple. I can't support any effort that includes this woman who serially harms one of us. Is she a part of this? I can't think how to ask it more plainly.

[emlev]

32. Doing my best to respond to you

"So, are you telling me that you don't know who you're raising this money for?"

No, not at all. I'm telling you I don't know who will be named. Because the lawyer isn't on board until tomorrow, some of the strategy is not fleshed out yet. Think back to Moss v. Bush in Ohio. I feel certain that work had to be done on that lawsuit before the now-deceased Rev. Bill Moss was identified as the lead plaintiff, probably before any of the plaintiffs were identified. That doesn't mean anyone raising money for that suit didn't know who they were raising the money for. Whatever action we take is for the people of California and, by extension, the U.S. The organizers are affiliated with a number of different organizations. I am very much "in the loop" and have heard absolutely nothing to indicate that BBV is or will be involved in any way.

Again, I have not seen or heard any indication that BBV is in any way involved in these efforts now or even hopes to be in the future. I don't know any clearer way I can say this.

"I raised this question more than 24 hours ago, when I still had every hope of supporting this effort. I hope you and the crew involved hasn't been so burdened that this very simple question couldn't be answered."

Like I said before, I didn't see it. I wish I had. I am not hiding anything. I am, however, trying to balance this work with a very complicated life. Apparently I needed to watch my thread more carefully than I did. I've learned something, and I'm sorry that in my learning it you've felt frustrated and believe you've been ignored.

"I have put in more hours than I would ever wish on you trying to repair what that grifter has spoiled."

And I have a lot of respect for the work you've done. I understand why you needed to check this out. I really do.

"Funny, how your response is framed to isolate me."

I've reread my post and really don't see what I did that had the effect of isolating you. Is it because I referred to you in my response and there are others with similar questions who I didn't mention? I haven't read every post on every thread about this fundraising drive. I addressed you because I'm hearing your concerns the loudest, and because I was responding to your OP. I have no reason to isolate you. I'm not against you. I'm really doing the best I can to respond to you respectfully with the information I have and am able to discuss. DU is a public forum, and it doesn't always make sense to discuss movement strategy here.

You know, it strikes me as really ironic that this discussion has, in a way, meant that BH has interfered with our efforts, without her having lifted a finger. I know that's not your intent at all (on the contrary), and I feel sad that it's happening. I'm interested in removing the wedge that has appeared between us. I don't think it needs to be there. I'm trying to work with you and hope you can read this with the friendly tone that's intended.

[EFerrari]

44. You did a great job. I'm sorry I wasn't more help with that thread. n/t

[Melissa G]

31. I think she just needed a little reassurance, emlev..

It just happened that you guys were understandably busy and it wasn't a short answer kind of question.
I'm thinkin' everyone has the best of intentions who is involved with this on this forum..
not speaking for Beth but that is my read..She is probably as she said, just frustrated because this concern is at the back of her mind and not allowing her to be working as much as she normally would kickin' your threads and trying to get the word out and donating herself.
you know she is one fine thread kicker!!

Thanks emlev, for your clarification and all your hard work on this!


Edit to say.. Easy everyone.. We are all friends working usually too hard, usually for free.

Posts written quickly can be easily misconstued. Perhaps off line would be best for this until things are clearer..

Love to all,
Melissa

[emlev]

33. Thank you. eom

[BradBlog]

39. For clarity...

As mentioned, this is the first I've even seen this thread. I answered every note I received from SFEXPAT and in every note I reiterated that neither BBV nor Bev have anything to do with actions ongoing in the Busby/Bilbray CA50 fight.

In regard to "who will be a plaintiff" that EmLev referred to, at the moment there is no plaintiff, as there is no lawsuit. There has been a request for manual hand count filed by Barbara Gail Jacobson, a voter in CA50. That is all for the moment.

That hand count has now been quoted as costing some $150,000 by the SD County Registrar of voters. That's a ridiculous number, seemingly pulled out of thin air, and differing from at least two other quotes from his office on the same race. Details on that here: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3045

As well, a collection is being made to place an attorney on retainer for this battle. The initial cost for that will be $10,000. The attorney that will hopefully come on board is not back from vacation until tomorrow (Monday) July 10.

Funds are being collected by VelvetRevolution.us for the time being until the group on the ground in San Diego opens up a bank account, gets a treasurer, etc. ALL funds being collected at VR (plus, likely, many of our own we had collected previously) will be going to the effort.

Representatives from PDA (National and local), DFA (local), MoveOn (local) as well as California Election Protection and VR are involved in the group of folks getting organized. There is no rep from BBV in the group.

That said, and with both my blog and mail server now under attack, so I can't send private email for the moment, here's the note I attempted to send out to EmLev to post here, since I came home from dinner to find all of this stuff, including a message from Bev Harris about it, before I even know any of this was going on...Anyway, here's the statement I tried to send out to EmLev:

==========

BBV has nothing whatsoever to do with the Busby/Bilbray hand count issues or any of the related efforts surrounding it. The efforts are being strung together as best as possible by an ad hoc group of election integrity advocates, mostly in San Diego, coming together and trying to organize as best as possible under difficult conditions against a Goliath of a system. There are representatives of local chapters of California Election Protection Network, DFA, MoveOn, PDA (national as well) and VelvetRevolution, but there are no BBV organizers involved in the group whatsoever.

As well, while I was out making the mistake of stepping away from the computer for a few hours and various hell was breaking loose for reasons not currently clear to me, Bev Harris sent me the following comment:

"As a 501c(3) Black Box Voting is not allowed to fund a recount for a candidate.

Because procedures were violated in San Diego County, we certainly are in your corner and endorse the importance of doing the recount, due to multiple problems with the chain of custody, the integrity of the software itself, and the inappropriate removal of a key part of the audit trail with the absentee ballots.

We are not going to be involved in or benefit in any way from the recount."

With that unsolicited comment sent from Bev, I would also add a reminder to those concerned with Election Reform and Election Integrity, that the new federal and state laws and security mitigation requirements, which were violated during the Busby/Bilbray voting machine "sleepovers", were written in direct response to the revelations made in Leon County, FL in December of 2005 when Election Supervisor Ion Sancho allowed BBV to conduct a security analysis/hack test by Harri Hursti and Security Innovation revealing the extraordinary (and banned by federal law!) vulnerabilities of the Diebold optical-scan and touch-screen systems.

Whatever your feelings or concerns about Bev Harris and BBV, it would be wise for Election Integrity advocates to note how much of the current spate of activitity, information and revelations about the vulnerabilities of these systems has come directly from efforts orginated by BBV.

But with that said, I'll just mention again, BBV has nothing to do with the ongoing organized (mostly) efforts to fight for accountability, accuracy and integrity in the Busby/Bilbray CA50 election.

Brad

[EFerrari]

42. I'm sure that your advocacy for BBV is appreciated. I'm so

happy my concerns were groundless.

lol

[Boredtodeath]

46. I have a simple problem with this response

Particularly, this:
In regard to "who will be a plaintiff" that EmLev referred to, at the moment there is no plaintiff, as there is no lawsuit. There has been a request for manual hand count filed by Barbara Gail Jacobson, a voter in CA50. That is all for the moment.

An attorney cannot be retained without a plaintiff.

[emlev]

47. Disagree

It's my understanding that organizations hire attorneys all the time. As the case takes shape, a plaintiff is chosen among the many possible ones to name in the case.

[Boredtodeath]

48. Not in this case.

And I think it absolutely sucks that you are fundraising for such a cloudy reason.

I'm more disappointed to see the Admins approve such a fundraiser.

You MUST have a plaintiff to bring an election lawsuit.

[BradBlog]

70. YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG...

I don't know your reasons for continuing to spread some sort of suspicion about the efforts on the ground, but I suspect there is more at work here than just concerns about where money is going and such.

I assure you that VelvetRevolution will be putting in more money to effort than we are able to bring in from donations.

As to attorneys being retained for legal efforts, I'll hope you're not being disingenous when you aver that attorneys cannot be hired without a plaintiff. That's just ridiculous.

An attorney will be brought on to advise in all matters of things, and to litigate, if necessary, should a lawsuit or contest of some form be necessary.

At this time, there is nothing more than a hand count request. BAsed on the SD County Registrar's behavior, however, I'd not be surprised if that changed soon, however.

Brad

[Boredtodeath]

79. My reasons.......

You're asking people for MONEY. Cold, hard cash.

You have no right to do so without being honest and up front with a full accounting.

You walk around questions and throw out accusations to avoid the tough questions.

You have no right to be deceptive and less than forthcoming if you are asking for money.

DU has been down this road with Bev Harris. I suspect most of us don't plan on walking the same path twice.

Bev can't raise money so you do it for her under cover of VR.

[BradBlog]

84. My answers...

>>You're asking people for MONEY. Cold, hard cash.
You have no right to do so without being honest and up front with a full accounting.<<

I have been up front about everything from the get go. My work and reporting and battle for electoral integrity is based on the call for transparency. Your insinuation to the contrary is without merit. So, what would you like to know that I haven't already answered?

>>You walk around questions and throw out accusations to avoid the tough questions.<<

I've avoided no questions. No matter how many times you insinuate that.

>>You have no right to be deceptive and less than forthcoming if you are asking for money.<<

There has been no deception, and I've been "less than forthcoming" on nothing. No matter how many times you keep repeating that notion.

>>Bev can't raise money so you do it for her under cover of VR.<<

You have just made an accusation for which you have absolutely zero evidence. I know that as a fact, because I know that there is no such evidence that exists. Because I know that it's entirely and completely untrue.

The question then (speaking of being deceptive and less than forthcoming) is why do you keep making such completely baseless suggestions?

I think the question itself likely speaks volumes.

That said, if you have a single iota of evidence to suggest there is anything to back up your silly and baseless suggestions, I'll be happy to take a look at it. In fact, feel free to post it here so everyone can take a look at it.

Now I'll be going back to the business of fighting for electoral integrity in the meantime. I'm sorry you seem to find it necessary to make that fight more difficult than it already is. I couldn't begin to guess your reasons for that.

Brad

[Boredtodeath]

88. THESE questions, Brad........posted all over the thread

You say:
Funds are being collected by VelvetRevolution.us for the time being until the group on the ground in San Diego opens up a bank account, gets a treasurer, etc. ALL funds being collected at VR (plus, likely, many of our own we had collected previously) will be going to the effort.

Can you tell us just a little bit about VelvetRevolution?

Does it have tax exempt status?

How about a board of directors?

An accountant or accounting firm to give donors a breakdown on how funds are spent and accounted for?

Is VR anymore than a website run by you?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are you avoiding answering these questions?

[Boredtodeath]

81. If you want legitimacy,

find an attorney who will set up a legal fund to accept donations.

Otherwise, this feels, sounds and acts like a con.

[BeFree]

53. Emlev?

Remember that the great state of Georgia is the most Diebold infected state in the nation. The reason why Georgia remains so infected can be seen in some of the responses to your lucid posts. Good work, emlev.

[troubleinwinter]

66. WHAT "organization"??

When I asked this on the other thread, Brad responded "folks".

BBV is an affiliate of VR. The money is being sent to VR, without any explanation as to who this money is being collected on behalf of, just "folks".

[Boredtodeath]

80. Does this not feel as familiar as election 2004?

When lots of promises were made and NOTHING delivered.

Uh uh, I'm not going down this road again.

[Boredtodeath]

49. A few question, Brad

You say:
Funds are being collected by VelvetRevolution.us for the time being until the group on the ground in San Diego opens up a bank account, gets a treasurer, etc. ALL funds being collected at VR (plus, likely, many of our own we had collected previously) will be going to the effort.

Can you tell us just a little bit about VelvetRevolution?

Does it have tax exempt status?

How about a board of directors?

An accountant or accounting firm to give donors a breakdown on how funds are spent and accounted for?

Is VR anymore than a website run by you?

[livvy]

50. Go here for info about VR

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/
Scroll down the column on the right to see a list of groups involved in their effort.


ABOUT VELVET REVOLUTION

Velvet Revolution is a term coined to describe the peaceful road to change in countries where governments ignored the inalienable rights of the people. A few inspiring Velvet Revolutions occurred in the former Soviet Union, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, South Africa, and of course, most recently in Ukraine. The citizens of those countries, tired of corruption and arrogant power, joined together by the millions in a sustained campaign of opposition – they demonstrated, boycotted, petitioned, and engaged in strikes until the pillars of power were replaced by the halls of the people.

VelvetRevolution.us ("VR") is a network of more than 120 progressive organizations reaching millions of people demanding progressive change through our VR Media, Electoral Reform, Conflict Resolution and Youth Revolution Campaigns. Indeed, Americans everywhere are excited about our many recent successes including helping to bring Election Reform issues and the Downing Street Memos to the attention of the American public. Our Board is diverse, experienced and strong. Although the VR name and concept are relatively new, the people and organizations behind it are not. VR is not a new startup but rather a continuum and the next logical step for those involved -- a marriage in which strengths are magnified by the common goals of the partners. Indeed, it is experience, ideas and vision that provide the promise of success for VR.

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/Content/Misc/About.php

[BeFree]

52. Good questions, BTD

But hey, VR is sticking it's neck out, and Brad has done a great job of sticking to the cause.... he has done GREAT work.

So, while I am not a regular $ donor (my time is worth more than $) I am gonna donate $10.00 cash to VR. We need to show the politicians that we care, and that we want paper, not plastic, to cast our votes on, and then, THEN, we want every vote counted.

Now, all I need is a mailing address.......

[livvy]

54. Here you go...

Velvet Revolution is a citizens' movement and therefore we will be responsible to you for the money you send us for use in VR campaigns and operations. We pledge to spend the money wisely and to account for how the money was spent. We also hope to be able to funnel money as grants to our various Affiliate organizations as needed, and to support specific actions and initiatives by those groups and other citizens who are organizing actions which VR supports.

Alternately, our snail mail address for checks or money order donations is:

VELVET REVOLUTION
POB 9576
Washington, DC 20016

They also accept CC or PayPal at this link:
http://www.velvetrevolution.us/donate.php

[Boredtodeath]

57. Wow!

So you're asking us to donate to an organization which "promises" to handle our money well?

Ohhhhhhh, it's BBV, Jr.!!!!

[livvy]

60. Did you even bother to look at their site, or are you just intent on being

contrary?
I posted the links as an informational source. They are supported by a large number of groups I trust.
You don't have to trust them if you don't want, and you don't have to donate if you don't want. It's entirely up to you.
Given the large amount of information provided in this thread and on their website, I just don't see the point of the further questioning of the motives of Brad Blog, VR, or the posters in this thread. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it just does not seem productive.

Just my opinion. You are free to yours as well.

[Boredtodeath]

61. Way too many "Nos"

Does it have tax exempt status? No

How about a board of directors? No

An accountant or accounting firm to give donors a breakdown on how funds are spent and accounted for? No

As I said before, this is BBV, Jr. Donating to an organization like this is pure foolishness.

If that makes me "contrary," so be it. I call it smart.

[livvy]

62. Can you verify this? Where are you getting this info?

Links to back up your statements would be helpful.

[Boredtodeath]

63. YOUR links back it up

Have YOU read the site?

Maybe you weren't around here when Bev Harris did this EXACT SAME THING. Made all kinds of promises, all kinds of accusations, all kinds of lies - if only we sent some money.

Someone hit rewind.

[livvy]

64. I have found nothing on the site that gives evidence one way or the

other as to their status as tax-exempt or not, who their Board members are (although it does make mention of the existence of a Board), or any breakdown of their economic status.
I was around for part of the BH shenanigans, and I was appalled at much that went on. It wasn't right. It was very hurtful in very many ways, and although I don't share the deep feelings against her that many do, I can certainly understand and empathize with those here that do.
I have no further interest in BH. If she can do some good, fine, but she will get no support from me.
I don't feel that VR deserves to be put in this same category. It seems that they have done a lot, don't consistently plea for donations here on DU, and have strong support from a wide variety of progressive groups.
I really think if you want some answers about your concerns, try dropping them a note. Ask them about their tax status, accounting, etc. They may be very willing to address your concerns.
I've been on DU for too long today, and need to go do something else. So if you respond, and I don't answer back, I'm not "ditching" you, or trying to avoid the discussion, I just need to get some air on this very pretty Michigan day.
If you do email them, drop me a pm. I'd be interested in their response.

[Boredtodeath]

65. Ah, DU should charge Brad for ad space

With all the links that get posted here.

And, if you'd take the time to notice, Bev is a big fan and poster at BradBlog.

He's quite the Bev Defender, here, there and at the Diebold Message Boards.

on edit:

Also, Brad prints Bev's lies and attacks on DUers and voting activists. When called on it, he deletes the posts doing so and leaves Bev's attacks there.

Nope, sorry, if Brad wants to lie in bed with dogs, he's gonna get fleas.

[troubleinwinter]

67. BBV is a PART of VR, an affiliate organization.

[BradBlog]

71. Boredtodeath is posting pure disinformation n/t

[Boredtodeath]

77. 'fraid not

I know you wish it were true. But, as others have found, you're nothing more than BBV, Jr.

[BradBlog]

85. 'fraid so

I look forward to seeing whatever it is that "others have found."

(ACtually, I don't. Since I don't have time for this nonsense, but even while going to sleep at 5am and waking 8am for just about every day over the last month because of all of this Busby/Bilbray related stuff, I'll do my best to keep an eye on whatever these ridiculous, unsupported slurs are that you wish to make here, for reasons I can't even begin to fathom.)

[Boredtodeath]

87. We all have our burdens

I get about 3 hours of sleep a night caring for a sick loved one.

But, clearly, you refuse to answer the questions which would put people at ease. Few of us are going to walk down the Bev Harris memory lane with our money.

[kster]

94. THANKS BRAD, FOR ALL THAT YOU DO FOR OUR FAMILIES FUTURE

Just thought that should be said.

[troubleinwinter]

96. It is embarrassing when your caps-lock key gets stuck, isn't it?

[troubleinwinter]

74. I DID read the VR site.

BBV is an affiliated organization.

The VR site says: "We also hope to be able to funnel money as grants to our various Affiliate organizations..."

As long as BBV is any part of VR, I will choose to donate to other organizations directly, and not to VR.

[Boredtodeath]

78. Brad, are you avoiding these questions?

Instead of throwing accusations around why don't you address the concerns?

[hpot]

51. Can we get back to work now?

I'm tired of this infighting. It only serves to divide the movement.

[EFerrari]

55. I don't remember asking for your attention. And simply

asking for accountability shouldn't have to require "infighting".

[hpot]

56. Don't post on a public forum if you don't want attention

All this bickering is Bullshit and not productive. If you don't want other people's opinions then don't post speculative suggestions.

hpot
recountflorida.com

[EFerrari]

59. I didn't say I objected to your attention either.

And no, this isn't bullshit. Thanks! :hi:

[Boredtodeath]

58. No, we can't.

This BS is as bogus as the BBV fundraisers.

It's BBV, Jr.

[fooj]

76. Brad...have you seen this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=436340&mesg_id=436577

Why hasn't over 500K been used to battle election fraud or election reform? Just sharing some info that I thought you might be interested in. I didn't donate money for election reform to have it wither away in some bank account. That said, I realize that you have nothing to do with this 500K in question, however, I feel that it is most definitely a point of interest and one that you should be fully aware of.

Peace.

BTW...Bev claims she cannot give money for recounts because she is a 501(c). HOWEVER, that does not explain why she cannot give money for LITIGATION. The money you are soliciting is not for a recount, correct? It's for LITIGATION, right? Is there something in the laws that stops her from helping with litigation? Just wonderin'...

[troubleinwinter]

82. Apparently,

at least according to "bailey77"....

(you know, this one: )

Bev does not see a problem with donating to litigation in theory, if perhaps not in actual fact.

Democratic Underground
Tue Mar-08-05 06:37 PM
bailey77 (97 posts)

Harris arranged to donate $2000 to the lawyers in Ohio, to help pay for their defense against a sanction effort.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=340188&mesg_id=340564

I cannot find this supposed "donation" on the BBV 990 reporting, however.

[BradBlog]

86. Nope...

Why hasn't over 500K been used to battle election fraud or election reform? Just sharing some info that I thought you might be interested in. I didn't donate money for election reform to have it wither away in some bank account. That said, I realize that you have nothing to do with this 500K in question, however, I feel that it is most definitely a point of interest and one that you should be fully aware of.

When I can find a moment I can try and look into it. Knowing what I know about that effort, I think it's safe to assume that many are looking at it, and if there is any legal malfeasance of any type, then actions will be taken.

As is, with 3 hours of sleep per night for many many nights, and hundreds of unanswered calls and emails (and unwritten articles on BRAD BLOG that I'd like to get to), I don't have the resources to report on everything.

BTW...Bev claims she cannot give money for recounts because she is a 501(c). HOWEVER, that does not explain why she cannot give money for LITIGATION. The money you are soliciting is not for a recount, correct? It's for LITIGATION, right? Is there something in the laws that stops her from helping with litigation? Just wonderin'...

There is nothing that I know of which stops her from giving money for litigation. That said, she has not given any money to the efforts as far as I know.

As well, as I've made clear, the funds are for the efforts associated with fighting for Busby/Bilbray accountability. Currently both legal action and a hand count are both possibilities as we sort things out. The attorney we've been conferring with has been on vacation until today and the breadth of the effort is still coming together.

BTW, if anyone (now or later) wishes to have their contributions back, VR will be happy to give it to them.

As I've said many times, every penny taken in from contributions will be going to the effort, in addition to the additional money that VR will be putting into the effort since contributions, so far, are not large enough to cover the various anticipated needs (such as the $150,000 quoted by the Registrar for the cost of a count, or even the $10,000 needed to retain an attorney).

Brad

[troubleinwinter]

95. Oh.

There is nothing that I know of which stops her from giving money for litigation. That said, she has not given any money to the efforts as far as I know.

Oh.

[troubleinwinter]

83. Now I am amazed and stumped.

The fundraising thread on DU states: "Specifically, we need $10,000 by Monday July 10 to retain our attorney."

I see no such information posted on BradBlog. All I find are two comments buried down some paragraphs within articles without any dollar amount or dire due date.

7/9 Election Reform watchdog organization VelvetRevolution.us has taken up a collection for the costs associated with the entire legal battle over the Busby/Bilbray election. Contributions may be made here.

7/7 Election protection organization VelvetRevolution.us has begun to collect donations for the legal fees associated with fighting for accountability in the Busby/Bilbray election, until such time as advocates on the ground in San Diego have created a legal fund for this purpose. Donations may be made here. (DISCLOSURE: The BRAD BLOG is a co-founder of VR.)

Why is a specific amount and a RUSH date of today posted on Democratic Underground, but not on BradBlog?

[Boredtodeath]

89. None of this looks legitimate

NONE of it.

They don't have a plaintiff.

Their attorney is on vacation.

They don't have the funds for a recount.

They don't have the funds for a retainer.

And Brad tries to re-direct the questions with accusations and attacks.

[flyingobject]

90. update?

Is the potential attorney back from vacation yet?

Is there a Plaintiff?

How much money was raised so far?

Any way to account for the donations publicly?

Wasn't this Busby/Bilby contest for the congressional seat up until November?

If Busby/Bilby election were rendered invalid in court, wouldn't
all elections in the past (run under same situation) be invalid too?

[BeFree]

91. Hope this helps.

Is the potential attorney back from vacation yet?
Thank goodness an attorney is available. Wonder how long he can work for free? Probably not much, besides, you get what you pay for.

Is there a Plaintiff?
You can bet there is one just chomping at the bit to put themselves on a limb for all of us. Its gonna take one hell of a brave soul to represent us in court.

How much money was raised so far?
Not enough, fer sure. Keep sending in what you can. The big money on the other side has us at a terrible disadvantage.

Any way to account for the donations publicly?
Shoot, who wants their money to pay for an accountant, because that's where it would all go. Heck, either one wants to donate to the cause or they don't.

Wasn't this Busby/Bilby(sic) contest for the congressional seat up until November?
You do mean Bilbray, right? And yes, there will be another vote for the same seat in November.

If Busby/Bilby election were rendered invalid in court, wouldn't
all elections in the past (run under same situation) be invalid too?
Now, wouldn't that be real justice? Good thinking. I like that way of thinking.

[flyingobject]

92. anything answers yet?

So when will you know anything more?

Has an attorney been retained yet?

Will there be more than one attorney?

What is the retainer amount?

Who is the plaintiff?

Who is the defendent?

What legal documents have been filed so far?

What amount of money has been collected?

Who owns and can access the pay pal account for the donations?

Will there be any accounting of the donations, or is this just a "trust me" transaction?

[Boredtodeath]

93. I'm pretty sure this is a "trust me" situation

And most DUers know how that came out when we did the "trust me" thing with Bev Harris.

I would like to see answers to ANY of the questions asked in this thread, however. But I don't think we should hold our breath.

[Moderator]

97. Locking

Thread is a flamefest.