I am Done Supporting Machine Voting

[BeFree]

Sticking with the machines, at this point in time, is, to my mind, akin to our forefathers saying: You know, King George is not all that bad.

That isn't what they said, was it? No, they said to hell with King George. We shall never stop fighting until we win. This is war!

We knew, nay, we know the machines are tied up in a web of deceit, lies, and other crooked dealings and dealers. I can no longer put my good name on their dotted line.

I will support only Hand Counted Paper Ballots from now on. I will fight the machines until such time as one comes along that has been proven to be better and more trustworthy than my fellow citizens. I know many poll workers and election officials, and I have infinitely more trust in them than Diebold, et al, will ever gain from me.

I call on you fellow members to remind me if ever I falter and fall back into the grip of the vote stealing, democracy killing, Choicepoint, and CIA owned operated and financed pieces of over-priced crap that Tom Delay has foisted upon my country.

This is war!

[Warpy]

1. We got 100% optical scan paper ballots in NM

and while we know the scanners can be diddled, we still have the possibility of doing a hand recount. That's something which is absolutely necessary, if only as a spot check of random precincts.

The ES&S touch screen machines that disenfranchised 17,000+ of us are no more. Perhaps they can be used as doorstops.

[BeFree]

2. I wish you well

But the fight to get your audits will be subverted by the crooks. However, I am sure you will win getting real audits, and in so doing will find that the machines are still screwed up, leading to changes for the better in the long run.

As for me, I will vote using whatever crap they put in front of me, but I will tell them that it is just that: Crap.

I want my elections unplugged and until such time as they come up with something that can gain the confidence of us all, it is what I will demand. It is yall that I trust more than Diebold and the rest.

So, ask yourself, do you really trust the Op-scan more than election workers you can watch as they add up the votes? When I asked myself that.... well, you know the answer.

[flyingobject]

18. www.Be Free To Criticize But Do Nothing.org

New Voting reform organization that does nothing to make
things better.

[kster]

4. You can't spot check Democracy, It has to be 100% checked

Would a bank allow the teller to hand you the bills after this machine counted them, of course not, the teller is able count the bills with this machine, but the teller must always do a full manual count of the bills in front of the customer.



Would the bank accept a spot check of their bill counters, of course not, it has to be a full hand count of all the bills before they get handed to the customer. I fully understand why the bank wants a 2nd manual count of the bills, just like the bank wants me to count the bills before I leave the window. It just makes sense. Checks and balances....


I want to use the banking rules when it comes to our Democracy.

[Kelvin Mace]

8. Actually, banks do accept spot checks on their bill counters

I worked eight years for a company that wrote bank software and am quite familiar with bank policies and procedures.

Yes, they count money back to customers as a re-assurance, but at the end of the day they make EXTENSIVE use of bill counters to count their drawer. If the drawer doesn't balance, they will go back and re-run the bill counter, then count manually if they get the same results and are out of balance.

Bill counters are spot checked for accuracy each day.

Elections, unfortunately, are not quite equivalent to banks. In banking, the bank is allowed to see how much my deposit is, in an election, voting officials are NOT allowed to see how I voted. This causes a bit of a problem, don't you agree?

[kster]

9. I only know what the banks

do when they hand me the money after the counter was used first to count the bills, they never take it from the machine and hand it to me, they always manually hand count it in front of me.

I always think of telling them that the government thinks they are wasting their time hand counting all them bills, after counting them with the machine, I'm going to bring them a copy of the hr 550 bill that says you only have to count 2 % of the bills to verify whether the machine is counting them correctly.

[Warpy]

10. So do I,

but I'll take what I can get.

[Stevepol]

3. Keep reminding people: paper ballots hand counted is HAVA compliant.

All HAVA requires is that handicapped people be accommodated, and there are several ways to do this. Vote Pad is one such device, already certified in WI and about to be certified in CA.

Very simple solution to the voting machine dilemma: Use paper ballots hand-couted and Vote Pad to take care of the handicapped people who come by to vote.

Hand counting is by far the cheapest, the most accurate, the most trusted by voters.

The only drawback and this is actually a virtue is that the tabulation takes a little longer. So what? Wouldn't you rather wait a while longer and know the vote is counted properly, or have the most confidence that it's possible to have that this is true anyway.

This is my argument to Elections Commissioners, candidates for office, friends, etc. If we use the machines there should required fair and random audits for all elections, and the paper trumps the machine.

[skids]

5. Just as long as you still vote.

Don't buy into the idea that not at least trying to get a vote through that mess constitutes any sort of "boycott."

[BeFree]

7. The idea was, skids

that by using a paper absentee to vote was a statement against the machines, and a boycott of the machines only, and not a boycott of voting in general.

There was much confusion on that matter, hope all is clear now.

I get mad at people that don't vote, especially if they are potential democratic voters. Puke non-voters I cut some slack, eh?

[blm]

6. I'm with you - there is no reason every precinct can't count paper ballots

in front of a videocamera. No GLITCHES. Set up TWO cameras.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

11. We know paper ballots can be counted by hand

Can you tell us what your plan is to change things?

How are you supporting hand counted paper ballots?

Are you working towards legislation?

I am all for it,just wonder if you were speaking with your
congressman to get the law changed, or if you had some other way to
get this accomplished.

We know that elections can be counted on paper.

Yes, it takes alot longer in the US because of the very full ballot.
Yes, it can be done and when it is it often takes till the next day, which is fine with me, but
isn't fine with election officials.

Clearly, the US would need to change the number of contests to be on a ballot,
and have elections more often so as to break up some of the contests.

Of course we can count paper ballots, but what is the plan?

[BeFree]

12. You want a plan to change things?

This is the plan: I will not support, in any way, shape or form the current aberration of democracy that purports to use fallible, insecure, corruptible, and privately controlled voting machines.

I will criticize the machines and anyone who supports the use of such machines at any time place or situation. I will never again support the use of the current crop of crap that has been foisted on us by the Diebolds and ES&Ss of the world.

This country has hand counted paper ballots for longer than I have been alive. I don't need a plan to count the votes, I just adopt the ones already there.

Demanding HCPB is the right thing to do, because it is a better system than any of the machine systems.

MLK said this about his work and efforts:

“There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but he must do it because conscience tells him it is right.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

13. wonder what kind of response have you gotten so far?

Wonder what kind of response you or anyone have gotten from
your election officials, county commissioners, local officials, and legislators?

We asked our legislature to consider banning the voting machines, and
it was like talking to a wall.

We brought Chuck Herrin to testify to them, and he definitely awed them.

But, they wouldn't ban voting machines,
although they did require voter verified paper ballots.

It was too big of a stretch in their minds -
after having paperless DREs for 20 years, and
paperless lever machines as well for decades and decades.

[BeFree]

14. It is more a personal decision

I have held the hands of the vile vendors as we walked this path towards more stolen elections.

The party sees me walking down the path and figures: Hey, he says the machines are bad news, but there he goes, telling us the opscans, VVPT, audits, and software code suppositories will make him happy.

No wonder the party is confused. It is my fault. I must change. I must make it perfectly clear that NO current machine is as capable as HCPB for determining the will of the people.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

15. so this is all just talk?

you mean to say you are just going to complain?

What good is that?

[BeFree]

17. Excuse me?

What are you doing here but talking?

I know who you are and had a great deal of respect for your work, but that respect is diminishing rapidly. Now you don't know who I am, so that leaves you at some disadvantage, but that is no excuse for your efforts, it seems, to belittle me, or box me in, here and now.

The victory over Diebold, (but subsequent acquiescence of the machines) has been a big boost for you and I don't blame you for that past action. Indeed, I applauded it.

I guess now you are taking some personal umbrage at a position such as mine which may appear to diminish your fine work. Well, it is not meant to diminish past activities but to set a course to improve upon the hard road we have traveled, and will travel.

Now, if you can recommend a voting system that improves upon the accuracy of HCPB, I am all ears. Until such time as a voting system that is more accurate comes along, it is, and will be, HCPB for me.

Damn the machines!

[flyingobject]

19. no and you dont

no you don't know who I am.

And I am not criticizing hand counted paper ballots.

I am saying that it is negative for you to criticize
but do nothing to change things for the better.

If you have good ideas, they are useless if they are not
implemented.

[BeFree]

20. Are you will?

No, you aren't, of that I am sure. He doesn't act at all like you.

And you, of all people telling me about what is negative and what is not? F'N hilarious.

Here is a post I just placed on another thread. If you can read and comprehend, it may be of interest to you.

There is nothing in HAVA that discourages HCPB.

America has used HCPB for years. It isn't a new idea. But it still is the most accurate and least prone to widespread fraud.

I also know a good bit about legislation and how politics works. And I did get my BOE to at least ponder HCPB, but the free HAVA money was to enticing for them.

Tell ya something about HAVA. It's funding will be drying up after this election without further appropriations. So, soon it will come before the congress and we will be there (unified?) to argue our case. My case will be de-fund most of HAVA and return to HCPB, or a system that can be proven to be better than HCPB. That's a damn good argument, don't you think?

Too, HAVA may not be re-funded. What happens then?

In any case, we will be there to press our case for, against, or whatever, and using the argument I laid out above may just lead to substantial improvements overall. Do you have a better argument? I am all ears.

[flyingobject]

21. now when have I said anything like that?

I don't disagree about hand counting the paper ballots.
I never said that HAVA doesn't allow them.

The issue is - your criticism doesn't change anything, it
takes real action.

I am all for hand counted paper ballots.
I would volunteer to count them.
That would put me in the minority.

[BeFree]

22. See my reply to you

...in my other thread.

And do something constructive, and maybe even unifying, and quit taking cheap shots at the good people here. It really is bad for a poster's reputation. Not that you care, eh?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

16. if you want things to change, you have to work for it. N/T