Here's the New Buzz About Election Reformers

[BeFree]

I've seen something like this twice now, from, I believe, two different posters having to do with us ER'rs wanting the dems to lose so we can bitch about the machines.

Be on the lookout and hit back hard and fast.... our reputation is being attacked.

I imagine there will be some on this board who will be very disappointed if the Dems win the house and/or senate and put an end to all this drama.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2336615&mesg_id=2336899

[nam78_two]

1. Election Reformers rock

:yourock: :yourock:

Ignore the naysayers that don't do anything constructive and bitch about people that do.

K&R

[BeFree]

15. Ignore is not wise. And yes, we do Rock, thanks.

Found another one:


DUers. Don't let the "they'll steal it" screechers crush your optimism.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2869862&mesg_id=2869962

[BeFree]

16. And another

:-There will be allegations of Republican fraud; there will be circumstantial evidence to support these but no proof. They will be accepted as proven by most DUers, and dismissed by most other people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2869862&mesg_id=2870304

[BeFree]

18. Merely a screecher?

"I don't know if these people are just in a funk about the last six years, or if they truly believe that there's nothing we can do to turn things areound. Either way, these gloom and doom pronouncements cannot, by themselves, do any good.

The solution to the problem is simple. Get lots and lots of people on the problem on the 7th. That means volunteering as poll workers and watchers. It means having media people and lawyers ready to respond the instant a problem is detected. We don't need permission from party leaders to do this. Write LTTEs. Contact Congress critters. Write Democratic Party leaders.

If you are going to post "Gloom and doom" at least make an effort to propose actions which will defuse the issue. Otherwise you will be viewed as merely being a screecher."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2870615&mesg_id=2870650

[BeFree]

2. And of course there are these kind of remarks

"This whole crazy notion that everyone who has thought about it agrees with TIA ought to stop. It is doing a lot of harm."

[OnTheOtherHand]

4. wow, you are one schismatic dude

If you objected to the statement, you might have said so at the time -- and given a reason. Just a thought.

[BeFree]

5. That thread was dead...

..I don't play dead threads.

Besides, I've answered that accusation a thousand times already. Boring.

But now that we have you here, OT, how 'bout that masterpiece anti-TIA thread you said you'd deliver? Whatcha waiting on? Fritzmas?

[OnTheOtherHand]

14. since you asked

I had an RA check for dead links, except that I sent her an old version, so now she will be looking at the new ones.

But I can't imagine why you would care, since you rarely engage the substance of TIA's arguments. The really depressing thing about that thread was that several people gave the impression of agreeing with TIA's views, but none of them was willing to express them in his or her own words. Actually, you were a partial exception. You said that TIA says that "nationally the exit polls and pre-election polls were close," which is sort of right if one (1) uses TIA's funky numbers and (2) then ignores everything about them except the averages. (2) only works if TIA thinks that the level of fraud was uniform nationwide, but he has repeatedly said that it wasn't.

Neither of you has responded to this: http://inside.bard.edu/~lindeman/surprise.html
Here's a version using TIA's exit poll numbers, even though they actually aren't exit poll numbers -- apparently they come from screenshots, so they incorporate pre-election polls.

I think I counted 5 states with exit poll discrepancies over 4 points favoring Bush, 11 states with pre-election poll deviations favoring Bush, and none of them the same.

Whatever. No sign that you care. AFAICT I care more about TIA's arguments than you do, which is fine, except then I don't know why you get your knickers in such a twist.

EDIT TO ADD: by the way, the huge hole in your OP is that you make it about "election reformers" generally. AFAICT no one ever said that election reformers want the Democrats to lose. Looks to me like just another way for you to start a fight. Weird.

[kster]

3. An End, if by some chance the Dems take control

I will start fighting, 10 times harder to OUTLAW the secret vote counting machines. K N R

[BeFree]

6. Yep, I'm with ya, kster

The field will have been leveled, making it all the more merrier. Thanks for hanging, kster. It's been a long uphill climb, eh? But we are almost there. I can smell it.

[EFerrari]

7. Bill Maher just said that Robin Williams new movie is about

electronic voting fraud.

We're in da house, us "election reformers".

:party: :hippie: :evilgrin: :toast: :toast: :party: :hippie: :evilgrin:

[rumpel]

8. hey, check out the ERD

I posted an interview today


:)

[EFerrari]

9. 'Way to catapult the propaganda!

lol

:toast:

[rumpel]

17. I actually like the picture there

and soo wanted to post in the post -

I thought it is so funny

cheers -

:toast:

[kster]

10. I hope it comes out in a week

I think John Kerry was on that same show, why don't they just COME OUT WITH IT. US elections are a complete and utter scam?

It rolls off the tongue, real easy, what are THEY AFRAID OF? And/or WHO ARE THEY AFRAID OF?

I don't get it.

You and I are in a contest, I tell you, that We are not allowed to see the votes being counted.

Do you just keep competing in that contest? Do We pretend that the count is on the up and up, or do We, Demand to see the votes being counted?

Is it a real contest if we "allow other people" to confirm that the our votes were counted correctly? Thats what I don't get, Robin Williams, Maher still Remain Silent, about this issue, they all remind me of the three stooges, Moe(dem), Moe(dem), Moe(dem), say a few syllables.

[EFerrari]

11. Patience, sistah, it's all coming out. Even skeptical me

sees that.

When you have pop stars making movies about it, be proud you got the word out.

[kster]

12. OK, I have to ask is

sistah, a good thing, just asking?

[kster]

13. K&R. We need more discussion on this...nt

[Awsi Dooger]

19. Regardless of the outcome, please use real-world evaluation

That's what irritates me on this forum, and on DU in general since post-election 2002. I deal with expectations and outcomes literally day in sports. The people at work, and who I deal with, vehemently disagree as often as not. But post-result no one is pretending the outcome was 99.99% certain to fall one way then somehow manipulated in the other direction. It would be buffoonery. On DU it passes as pure genius.

I certainly don't claim EFers or DUers want Democrats to lose. Certain writers who routinely embrace only the most favorable poll numbers and pass them off as baseline representation of the status of the race, yes, I think they benefit from a rerun and sequels, and probably root that way.

Many, many vital races this year we would figure to lose by 4-8 points in a typical environment but this year we have a chance. Not all of those are going to tilt all the way past the break even point, in our favor. My fear all year is we come up just short in the House and/or Senate, which opens the flood gates for posters to scramble toward the narrow defeats for two years and assert we were cinches in every one. You know damn well that's what would happen. Just like CA-50. The details there never meant anything. If Busby lost it was stolen. When she loses by greater margin in a month, I guess that will be bigger theft, and not a simple case of higher number of votes in a heavily red district. Funny how those things work.

I hope the posters who are going to scream fraud would go to Pollster.com or similar, along with the market sites, a day prior to the election and get a true perspective on where the races stand. Then if we blow a bunch of 80/20 theoretical advantages you have that as ammo. Otherwise, I get sick of coming to DU and other progressive sites and being fed a bunch of ignorant crap that Kerry was supposed to win in a landslide, or Tom Strickland led Wayne Allard by 9 points, or we're guaranteed to take over the House. Right now those odds are 55/45 in our favor. That's the equivalent of a 1 point favorite in a football game. Somehow, if it falls the other way I doubt it will be presented that way.

[kster]

20. Can you show me the votes being counted?

If you can't, you can not say any of this with CERTAINTY. ;-) CAN YOU?

[BeFree]

21. I am reminded of a recent football game

In that game, in the last two minutes, two calls by the officials on the field were found to be in error only because replays showed the mistakes made the losers into winners. In the 2004 elections there were no replays.

I bring this up because that is where any similarities end. And further conflating sports with elections is far from reality.

Further evidence of the disconnection is that no one following sports would rely on the score of a game played in secret. Imagine that! Would you bet on any game like that? Well, that's what we have with election results. Total secrecy, followed up with numbers showing the results were cooked.

Enough!

[elizm]

22. They are brutal over there...

I don't post at DU very often...although I have been here since November 2004 (I was one of those who made a one day flight to DC in Jan. 2005 to support Senator Boxer when she was the only one to stand up and contest the Ohio vote.) I couldn't help myself from responding to those who are currently calling the election reform folks naysayers. And WOW were they BRUTAL to anyone who disagreed! What is that all about?