All in favor of Hand Counted Paper Ballots Constitutional amend please K&R

[In Truth We Trust]

Here. All those who disagree please explain why.

Thank you.

[w4rma]

1. I don't care if the paper ballots are hand counted.

Just as long as it is the paper ballots that are counted and that they are also available to hand count if the machine count has problems.

[In Truth We Trust]

2. Sourcecode and current laws would evade a transparent election such as

one offered by Hand Counted paper ballots. That quite simply is the best solution period.

[robinlynne]

10. The problem with that is that we are unable to get the hand counts when

there are doubts. Read about Ca-50 for example. The people requested a hand count, and the judge said no because he ruled that once Hastert swore in Brian bilbray as a congressman, even though it was 17 days BEFORE the votes were even counted, Bilbray became a member of congress and California no longer had any jurisidicton or the right to question his membership in congress. The votes still haven't been checked by hand months later. It is not right we automatically have, that to check the vote count. The machines counting the votes are made by diebold here in california, for example.

[w4rma]

12. I agree. But, atm the larger problem is the electronic black boxes.

I am not interested in tackling a new problem that might confuse folks until there has been progress on the black boxes.

A simple federal law to mandate hand counts in certain situations should solve this problem. It probably wouldn't be hard to tack onto a bill and get passed with a Democratic majority.

[mirrera]

3. K&R n/t

[ellenfl]

4. "it's not the vote that counts, it's who counts the votes." eom

[midnight]

17. Thats right.

We need to make sure we have a place at the table to count the vote.

[ellenfl]

24. unfortunately, paper ballots are easy to throw in the trash. eom

[mopinko]

5. here here

these thugs are in power only because of vapor votes.

[BeFree]

6. Well...

If we go back to hand counted ballots it will take a few more hours.

Ballot boxes could be stuffed, and we can't have that!

It would put a few major machine makers out of business, hurting the economy.

The government would not be spending billions of extra dollars on the machines, further damaging the economy.

If we ditch the machines now, people could lose their confidence in elections.... they will wonder: Why did they ditch the machines? Did they not count correctly? Are they saying that the elections were not fair and square?

[galloglas]

7. If we go back to hand counted ballots it will take a few more hours.?

Big K, Big R!

You've GOT to be kidding!

"If we go back to hand counted ballots it will take a few more hours."

That is the price you put on Democracy?? A few hours??


All the rest are straight out of a GOP FAQ, so I assume you are joking.


Big K, Big R!
Big K, Big R!
Big K, Big R!
Big K, Big R!
Big K, Big R!

[WillyT]

11. You Forgot The Sarcasm Tag... Didn't You ???

:shrug::sarcasm::shrug:

[Kurovski]

8. Here.

Just do it.

Quit yanking my chain with excuses and "but, but, but."

Just fucking do it.

Paper ballots, put it in the Constitution so asswipes will have a harder time stealing our vote.

[AtLiberty]

9. k & r

!!!

[Hun Joro]

13. K & R

[kster]

14. K&R..PBHC..IS ON THE MARCH!!!.........nt

[SeanQ]

15. We certainly need an amendment that _clearly_ gaurantees

that our votes will be counted, will be verifiable, and will be kept for a reasonable amount of time (7 years min?) just in case someone wants to pay the money to have it checked again just for shits & giggles.

But I don't think we should require that it all be done in paper. Or in a particular method. I personally would love to see a transparent, secure, electronic voting system. It really isn't that hard, as long as the source code and process is open. I'll spare you a list of boring but very feasible steps. Added bonuses of using advanced electronic voting could including random poll sampling - like exit polling, but handled automatically, from every polling place (also serves as an additional integrity check on the process). It allows more advanced form of voting to be explored, such as run-off voting, without adding unreasonable delays.

How about just a law that forbids media outlets on public airwaves from projecting a winner until Wednesday at 7pm? After all, with hand counted paper ballots we could easily be talking many days before a final result was in.

[druidity33]

16. i don't know...

I was all in favor, then i saw a compelling post by Landshark(?) about how emergency paper ballots may not be counted... or could be deemed invalid. It was a long and well explained post, which ger-dang it, i neglected to bookmark. Not a tremendous concern for me, being in the bluest of blue areas in Massachusettes... but it made me worried we're in for a sneak attack. If we all try to vote on paper and they somehow make the paper invalid, then where are we?

:(

[BeFree]

18. 33, Sir, or Madam, as the case maybe.

The Shark was referring to the most recent of stopgap measures, not the long-term reform that this thread is about.

If it so happens, I believe what the Shark thinks is that the emergency paper, if used this go-round, will be turned into legal mulch by the blackwells of the world. And he could be right.

But what this thread is about is making paper ballots the gold standard for elections in 2008 and beyond. About getting rid of the machines altogether and a return to honest-as-can-be elections. Paper Ballots, Hand Counted.

[druidity33]

21. Ah, that being the case...

Hand counted paper ballots are ABSOLUTELY the way to go. I say we should even have running video of ALL polling laces. Anyone can link live online with any polling place anywhere. Votes tabulated by hand, and verified by independent election observers.

Go Democracy!

:)

[Downtown Hound]

19. Definitely in favor

Also favor long prison sentences for ANYONE attempting to subvert the election process through fraud, intimidation, or tricks.

[autorank]

20. As a TOTAL & COMPLETE replacement of all other voting. You bet!!!!

Good work, this is a great thread and you are a very capable and persistent advocate of one key piece of free and fair elections.

The other pieces are

About this Site

Public access to all phases of
voting and counting.
No disenfranchisement.
No voter suppression.
No spoiled ballots.
No special ID's.
Paper ballots, period.
Free, fair, transparent
elections.

[InsultComicDog]

22. I don't necessarily agree

Many of us voted for years and years on Shoup machines, mechanical voting machines that were just fine and were verifiable. (Personally I have never voted on anything other than a voting machine of some sort or other).

Furthermore I don't really like a thread that says "k&r if you agree" on principle... next thing you know there will be a hundred threads with little content value on the "Greatest" page.

[kiteinthewind]

25. Then don't. Duh.

:nopity:

[autorank]

26. Shouop machines are a joke.

Why do you assume that they worked fine. Shoup as a company was actually involved in election fraud and the subject of a court case where they lost. We have them where I am and they suck. Their successor company, AVS has touch screens. The results are ridiculous. For example, Gov Dem wins big, his clone A.G. candidate trails by 12% to a complete right wing hack endorsed & owned lock, stock and barrel by Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson. Its a very liberal area, very. So wtf, the AVS machines just crank this out, nobody can look inside, no ballots to recount AND guess what: all around the state the down ticket clones of the RW extremist Republican governor do real well, but only in urban areas where there are AVS and Diebold machines. How about that for a "coincidence." YOu can't recount touch screen ballots, you can't trust Shoup for the same reasons, not ability to inspect. They take from here, from there, a lot or a little. The governor candidate from the Republicans was a goner anyway, so the Republicans pick up the two down ticket races with AVS and Diebold only down ticket surges (the other 1/2 of the states machines showed no real down ticket drop off, certainly not 12% to 25% in inner cities. You need to district any election where they can't prove they were elected, imho...

Then there are some bit players.

Last year, two of Diebold's top executives, Howard Van Pelt and Larry Ensminger, moved over to Advanced Voting Solutions, which is the new name of the scandal-ridden voting company Shoup Voting Solutions.

In 1971 Shoup Voting Machine Co. had been indicted for bribing politicians in Florida. In 1979 Ransom Shoup was convicted of conspiracy and obstruction of justice during an FBI inquiry into a Philadelphia election. Shoup got a mere three-year suspended sentence.

In the meantime, Philadelphia bought new voting machines from a new voting machine company, Danaher-Guardian. But this company only sells voting machines formerly known as the "Shouptronic."
http://tinyurl.com/yg95yx

[understandinglife]

23. Not one line of software between a Voter and a Valid Election ....

Peace.

[kiteinthewind]

27. HCPB's, thank you!! That's how I want to vote!

:headbang:

[BillORightsMan]

28. HCPB in New Hampshire

It takes more than having the paper ballots hand-counted. It takes community involvement and transparency to do it!

from Democracy For New Hampshire...

We're counting the votes--and you can too!

The DFNH Fair Elections Committee is proud to release the September 2006 edition of "We're Counting the Votes: An Election Preparedness Kit for…New Hampshire Citizens, Candidates, and Campaigns and for…All the Good and Honest Election Officials, Election Workers, and Poll Workers of New Hampshire.

~ ~ ~ ~

"We're Counting the Votes" videos

The videos show the easy, transparent, observable, secure, and fair nature of this method of vote counting when done within the community by members of the community and administered by good and honest election officials.

What you see in these videos is the civic and community component that is present in proper election administration, as well as the methodology. Our hope is that people will begin to remember the heart that is the grassroots, community-centered American election.

Download the video of Lyndeborough, NH (43MB) - ballot by ballot tally method of hand counting, 980 ballots cast and counted in under four hours with 100% volunteers (no budget item for the town)

And we'll need plenty of the DFNH Election Preparedness kits soon!

Watch Dennis Kucinich: Announcement of HR 6200 to Require Paper Ballots Hand Counted for Presidential Elections!!!

:patriot: