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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:49 AM
Original message
Coalition to Congress - Paper! But is it really? Election Reform News 12.18
Never forget the pursuit of Truth.
Only the deluded & complicit accept election results on blind faith.

Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News December 18, 2006



ELECTION FRAUD


BE SURE TO SEE THE WEEKLY COLLECTION OF ELECTION FORUM NEWS LINKS AT ”The Long Road to Democracy-Articles”

Activist Coalition Calls for Paper Ballots in Open Letter to US Senate and House of Representatives


A coalition of more than 30 election reform organizations today launched a new campaign to urge the new Congress to quickly pass legislation requiring paper ballots for every vote cast. A copy of the complete letter to Congress is here. VR is hosting the petition for the campaign and we are asking everyone to sign it and to pass it along to your friends. We have seen what problems paperless vote machines cause and want to reform our elections before the next election. Moreover, we do not want paper trails or paper records -- we want paper ballots. Please sign the petition here.

Outright Charge of Election Fraud by Major California Newspaper


Here you go (this is just perfect). It’s from the Fresno Bee, part of the McClatchy Newspapers, and sister paper to the Sacramento Bee. Note the use of the words:

fix, fixing elections, leaders…conspire, illegal This opens up the dialogue in the mainstream press. Thank you Dan Walters of the Fresno Bee!!!!

The fix is in - Its in the California voting system



By Dan Walters / The Bee's capitol bureau DAN WALTERS
12/17/06 05:53:26

We like to think that we voters are free to choose those who will occupy public offices and be empowered to make decisions on our behalf. It's amazing, however, how much energy politicians and interest groups devote to reducing or even eliminating our ability to freely make choices.

Fixing elections is certainly not a new phenomenon. During the early years of the republic, corrupt political machines would routinely stuff ballot boxes. Most historians concede that John Kennedy won the presidency in 1960 thanks to the electoral votes that were stolen by voter fraud in Chicago and South Texas. And, of course, there have been allegations that election officials in Florida and/or Ohio distorted the very close presidential elections of 2000 and 2004.

All of those incidents would have been illegal if proven. More insidious is legally fixing elections or at least sharply limiting voters' options so that a predetermined outcome is nearly certain.

A case in point is the decennial redrawing of legislative districts to ensure the incumbent's re-election, make it impossible for the incumbent to win, help someone else, or place the district in the ownership of one party.
Leaders of California's two major parties conspired after the 2000 census to freeze the numerical status quo in legislative and congressional districts by artful redrawing of districts.



Link to full article: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0612/S00267.htm

Coalition Paper Ballot Call Spares Vote Villains


Monday, 18 December 2006, 10:01 pm
Opinion: Michael Collins

ACTIVIST COALITION CALL FOR PAPER BALLOTS
Leaves optical scans in place / Diebold, ESS, & Sequoia to survive


Michael Collins
“Scoop” Independent News
Washington, DC

An impressive coalition of election fraud-election integrity groups signed an open letter to the U.S. Senate and the U.S. House of Representatives calling for paper ballots as the only standard for voting in the United States.

Paper trails and paper records are not sufficient to safeguard elections and restore confidence among the electorate. Unless there is a paper ballot for every vote cast, three fundamental principles of democratic elections are violated: 1. Observable tallies. 2. Equal Access. 3. Accurate Results. Open Letter 12.14.06

The letter states clearly:

…we now hold that a paper ballot, whether counted by optical-scan system or hand, is the minimum requirement for any Election Reform legislation in which voters may have confidence. (Emphasis mine, Ed.)
Open Letter 12.14.06

Foxes Still in the Henhouse: Diebold, ESS, & Sequoia Will Survive

This open letter is encouraging on a number of levels but it leaves the door open for election fraud by allowing optical scan voting machines to stay in place. Referring to “a paper ballot, whether counted by optical-scan system or hand…” does not address the numerous problems associated with optical scan systems. In a case of collective amnesia, the organizations have erased any problems associated with optical scan voting machines or the vendors that sell and service them.

R.I.P Voter Verified Paper Ballots (VVPB) - a time consuming failure.

This letter represents a major shift in positions and is a clear abandonment of verified voter paper ballots for touch screens. These ephemeral receipts were to solve the problems created by touch screen voting devices. Simple logic and experience took the signatories from this illusion to reality – paper receipts can tell a voter she/he cast a ballot for Kerry and then produce a vote in the machine for Bush. Imagine that - those pesky computers. They must have a mind of their own.

Snip

VVPBs are not a real solution unless there is appropriate law attached (and much more). That’s the point now and it’s been the point all along, as argued articulately by election law attorney Paul Lehto and New Hampshire activist Nancy Tobi. The means of voting and verifying are irrelevant as long as there is no legislation attached that allows public examination of ballots, public review of that voting counting process, reasonable standards for invoking an official recount, and the use of the VVPBs as the ballot of record. There is little if anything to show for all the effort devoted to verified voter paper ballots over the past years. They had a negligible impact on election 2006.

The Conclusion at this Point

The open letter is an achievement on one level. It represents coalition building in a movement that has been fragmented. On a broader level, the letter fails in two important ways. While it seeks nothing less than ensuring the protection of our democratic system, it fails to mention the worst elements of our voting system – voter suppression and voter disenfranchisement aimed at minorities; a glaring omission. From the standpoint of internal consistency, the letter argues for a position that perpetuates many of the problems these organizations have identified with computerized voting in general. Optical scan tabulators count as computerized voting, yet these devices are somehow now viewed as a reliable technology. Optical scan vendors with their deplorable record remain as well. What’s the point?

Snip



It’s time that the technologically focused faction of the voting rights movement broadens itself through an active awareness that it is part of the larger voting rights movement. It’s time to recognize that keeping people away from the polls is as big an election problem as manipulating their votes when they get there. And it’s time to recognize that the primary victims of election problems are minority citizens, those whom the power structure would deny a right to participate in our system.

Florida Fiasco


Of course there’s no real progress, other than the progress voting rights groups are making in getting decent media coverage. But first the candidate, one we can be proud of, Christine Jennings speaks to the St. Petersburgh Times.



Isn’t there a possibility you may not win a revote?

Jennings: If my opponent would win, I would absolutely wish him well and I would walk away from this and be pleased that the people have spoken. All people … I believe then that all people would have had an opportunity to vote for their representative.

How much of a problem was the ballot design?

Jennings: The ballot design may have been a contributing factor, but it is not the major factor.

Are you worried about being called a sore loser?

Jennings: Not at all because I can tell you I am getting e-mails, letters, all kinds of support from people across this nation, from New York to California, telling me don’t ever give up.

How far we’ve come in just two years since 2004. Now candidates are taking on election fairness and fraud issues without apologizing. Jennings is a class act. She should have a successful election contest in the House just based on what has happened so far. After all, the quickly retired Speaker Denny gave a hand up to Bilbray. Why can’t Speaker Pelosi give a fair hearing to Jennings?

The good work of Florida and national activists has the local press in a position to do its job. Here’s a list of articles on the contest from Jennings web site Articles. My favorite is this one from the Bradenton Herald.] It summarizes the four theories regarding the thousands of “under votes” (meaning no vote on a critical race). There’s just one problem. Election fraud is not listed as one of the theories. Attention, Florida Press: you live in FLORIDA, capitol of election fraud. Couldn’t it be that the problems were created by a group that wanted Jennings to lose? Oh, I’m so cynical. The press down there is working at it and we’ll see if they go further than noting the problems to the SOURCE of the problems.

Here’s what Republican Buchanan has waiting for him. Remember California 50 and the Speaker Denny swearing in.
Well Speaker Pelosi can use her awesome power for good and tell Buchanan to cool it while the House considers equity and election fraud.

Scoop: Democracy Denied: Meet the New Boss Aug. 31, 2006

But the
The cause for their concern: Similar problems voting on the machines.

Each voter said he or she went to the polls intending to vote for Jennings. Each swore he or she did, but that it didn't show up on a ballot review screen. Each said they went back and rechecked Jennings' name.

Some said that did the trick. Others said they had to repeat the process one or two more times before the review screen showed their choice.

But all said they remain unsure if their choice was recorded when they pushed the "vote" button to cast their ballot.

MOMENT OF ZEN In honor of the Ohio Recount Trial about to begin in Cuyahoga County, we need to take a moment of Zen and ponder the words of these two genius enablers of election fiascos:


"I think what we are really talking about is the interpretation of randomness," said BOE Chairman Bob Bennett, also Ohio's GOP party leader. "Don't get me wrong, but I think, you know, the interpretation of randomness is not going to change how we conduct recounts." ...or...
"Again, that was a question in all of our minds … what this term 'random' meant," Vu said. "And there were various ways of looking at it."


Bennett, Vu … pay attention to these picture…it’s not too late, you can always go into the trial and admit your errors, throw yourself on the mercy of the court.

These people will appear in your dreams forever unless you tell the truth – OHIO WAS STOLEN!!!



link:Good Recount Summary] and Michael Keefer’s The Strange Death of American Democracy: Endgame in Ohio
[/b>

VOTER SUPPRESSION


This is a must see, It’s all about race and the role minority status plays in the voting experience. It’s more than bits and bytes out there and the machine problems we hear so much about usually happen to minorities. AMERICAN BLACKOUT It’s distributed by the same people handling the Gore film. TAKE A LOOK AT THE SITE .

Voter Suppression: Salons shameful six:

There was Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004. Here are the six states where vote suppression could cost voters their voice -- and Democrats the election -- in 2006. Way to go Salon. You’re BACK!!!

Arizona, Indiana, Ohio, California, Florida, Missouri

http://tinyurl.com/r2c6q">Big change Salon, Thanks!!!


Here is an excellent summary of Voter Suppression 2006 Election Day by DUer philb
EIRS Hotline, Election Day 2006

VOTING PROCESSES


This is a trend. This IL county got fed up with Sequoia. Guess what they did? They demanded their money back. What a great move.

Voting Processes: IL County demands discounts from vendor for poor performance.


Iroquois County Clerk Mark Henrichs said yesterday that the county have already received a $4,000 discount on an $18,000 bill, and said he is seeking additional relief.

Iroquois County Board chairman Ron Schroeder said Larry Mandel and Sue Rippe, company representatives, spoke to the board's Policy and Procedure Committee Monday.

He said Mandel gave a summary of what happened with the program election night. He said a problem was discovered with the audio file for the touch screen voting machines prior to the election. This required the company to reprogram the memory cards.

Rocky Mountain High – on digital disruption

Voting Processes: Denver demands back $50k from Sequoia. 12.14.01 IT’S A TREND!!! Hey Sequoia, Show me the money.


Other fall out from Denver Digital Disruption

Inferior software

Legislative study called for.better election processes.

Can Denver handle special election in jus tone month?


And we'll go out with a bang, here is the DEFINITIVE statement on the EAC form John Gideon

EAC failed to meet its mission statement



All members welcome and encouraged to participate.

Please post Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News on this thread.
Please

"Recommend"

for the Greatest Page (it's the link just below).


Check www.electionfraudnews.com every now and then.



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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. A "K" and an "R" before bedtime.
I'll check it all out tomorrow.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Good night and good luck Prince Kurovski
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R #3
:)
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. ;)
:hi:
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. k&r 5 Kick & Rec!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Thanks! Your avatar just reminded me to chedk on David Van Os...AG Tx
I'm sorry to see he lost. He seemed like the real deal.

:hi:

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. As A New Yorker
I'm pleased my state is putting the brakes on changing our voting system. At least for the next prez election we will still have our trusty lever machines. Are you going to cross post in GD?
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Which proves my contention that NYC is the best place on earth!!!
Edited on Mon Dec-18-06 10:08 AM by autorank
Yes, x posting underway courtesy of kpete, in a few.

New York has been very savvy. The DOJ made its threats to sue NY State as it has other states. Well, Elliot Spitzer knows something about lawyering, I'd say. He probably has a better team than DOJ. As soon as NY State failed to back down, the feds became semi reasonable. Their brinkmanship flopped and the smarties (you guys;) won.

Thanks to my former cell mates, er...fellow citizens, for refusing to take any nonsense form the
HAVA thugs.

:hi:
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thank God Dead Eye Is On His Way Out
Pataki that is. He's been handing holiday bonuses to his friends at the expense of NYers. Surprised he didn't try to wrangle this one.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. A kick and a recommend upon drawing the morning's first breaths nt
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well, then you'll really like this one
Edited on Mon Dec-18-06 10:29 AM by autorank
Full article

One of us had to sleep (see acknowledgment at end of full article and, no you're not "The Scholar":evilgrin:)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
12. K&R
:applause:
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. K'ing and R'ing.
:yourock:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Hey buddy....
Is that the new roleplaying game we're into now that our team SUCKS.

If I were a bit more social, I could call these threads "autorank's Inquiring Mind...wants to know!"

:hi:
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. K&R For the most important issue we face! Thanks for your work, autorank! nt
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. puebloknow, Thakns for being here...I mean DU. We need some
new "free thinkers." To alter a phrase, "We're the spice of the earth."

:)
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R!
Go get 'em Mike!
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. BRAD BLOG's response to autorank's post re: paper ballot coalition--PLEASE READ
I hope everyone who reads what Autorank posted will also read this response. You may still disagree with the strategy, but at least you'll have more understanding of it. An excerpt:

As to your criticism that the coalition, in calling for a paper BALLOT for every vote cast is ignoring the dangers of optically scanned counted ballots, as well as other important issues in the our campaign which you describe as a "politically unsophisticated half measure", I'd argue that the campaign is anything but "politically unsophisticated".

We are aware of the many issues important to election reform, as well as the political realities currently being faced for any new election reform legislation.

For a start, our letter says in the very first paragraph, in regard to the panoply of issues that must be dealt with in any upcoming legislation,
"While there are many areas of concern for any such legislation, none is more essential to the accuracy of our elections and the confidence among our electorate than for there to be a paper ballot for every vote cast. Not a paper "trail" or a paper "record," but a paper ballot."
I do not speak for the entire coalition, but I'm rather confident that all current members of the group realize that this aspect of reform -- the requirement for a paper BALLOT for every vote cast -- is but one of many needed requirements. The statement points out that we feel none, however, is more important than ensuring we actually have that paper BALLOT.

The coalition is broad in that some might be okay with optically-scanned paper ballots while others would prefer (or demand) hand-counted paper ballots. But I believe nobody in the coaltion is unaware of the dangers presented by the unchecked, secret software used in optical scanners to count those ballots.

While nobody has yet seen the revised version of Holt's bill, to be presented in the new Congress, you'll note that even the previous version required publicly disclosed source code for such voting equipment, and mandatory random audits to work go with any such optically-counted ballots (as inadequate as I personally found the protocols for that audit to be in the previous version. I have reason, however, to believe such protocols will be greatly improved in the upcoming version.)
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. But I believe nobody in the coaltion is unaware ...
...of the dangers presented by the unchecked, secret software used in optical scanners to count those ballots.

We've known about problems with voting machines of various types since 2000. I start to fear I'll be molderin' in my grave before they get the bugs worked out. And then there will be new bugs.

Paper ballots are great, but if the optical scanning process allows for "tweaking" results, they're not an improvement over touch-screen machines.

Why do I not feel much confidence that "protocols will be greatly improved in the upcoming version"? Six years seems more than an adequate time frame to get things perfected.

We're back to "trust us" again!
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. I Copy That!
As I was reading your post, the word "defeatocrats" kept buzzing through my head... I wonder why?

Why are we debating here (debating each other, or anyone else, as far as that goes) about what is the best, most reliable method to conduct our elections?

After all, whose Life/Voting Franchise is this, anyway??

Sic 'em, kster!


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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #16
33. Some (opposing) points
I think Michael has covered my own concerns most thoroughly. And, in each instance where the two of you esteemed writers have a difference of opinion, I find myself coming down in favor of Michael's view.

Though you and Michael show the utmost respect for each other, and each other's work and contributions to the cause, as evidenced (in this thread, and others that are current) by some of the most elegant verbal bowing and scraping that I ever witnessed, sans plumed hats, you do differ on points.

So permit me, if you will, to dissect the tail end of Emlev's missive, on your behalf, in order to thus insert my own tuppence worth, in my own terms.


To wit:

For a start, our letter says in the very first paragraph, in regard to the panoply of issues that must be dealt with in any upcoming legislation,
"While there are many areas of concern for any such legislation, none is more essential to the accuracy of our elections and the confidence among our electorate than for there to be a paper ballot for every vote cast. Not a paper "trail" or a paper "record," but a paper ballot."


Perhaps the very words "paper ballot", as (appropriately) differentiated from the problematic phrases "paper trail" and "paper record" leads you to inadvertently err when you say, in reference to any upcoming legislation, that "(nothing) is more essential to the accuracy of our elections and the confidence among our electorate than for there to be a paper ballot for every vote cast."

And, in that limited context, I might tend to agree.

OTOH, the "paper ballot" is essential to an entire process which you refer to as
"the accuracy of our elections and the confidence among our electorate".

Consequently, the "the accuracy of our elections and the confidence among our electorate" becomes the supreme goal, instead of the "paper ballot" upon which the entire process hinges.

That said, even granting the necessity of"a paper ballot for every vote cast.", it is insufficient to assure "the accuracy of our elections and the confidence among our electorate" that you have predicated as the supreme goal.


That is simple reality. A chair cannot stand on one leg alone, any more than an entire electoral process can stand on one leg, even if that leg is
"a paper ballot for every vote cast."

But add to the mandate, "a paper ballot for every vote cast", the other elements of stability and you might find a chair that will stand, a cooking pot that hangs from a tripod, a camera that sits atop a tripod, or (fill in your own metaphor for stabilty).

In this case, "a tripod" would necessitate adding (at the least) to the paper ballots, both public control (including the public's decision as to what manner should be used to count them) and oversight, coupled with complete transparency from the start of balloting to the finish.

From the first vote cast until the last precinct-counted vote is nailed to the precinct door. This transparency must include the observing eyes of any interested peoples, and the lenses, cameras or other recording devices of any interested persons.

Once these supporting devices are incorporated into the system, and the Broth of Democracy is firmly secured, and made safe from the accidental, or "unintended", upending of our Sacred Brew, only then we may safely proceed with the equally important endeavor of enlarging, and permanently securing, the voting franchise for all those of legal age to vote.



I do not speak for the entire coalition, but I'm rather confident that all current members of the group realize that this aspect of reform -- the requirement for a paper BALLOT for every vote cast -- is but one of many needed requirements. The statement points out that we feel none, however, is more important than ensuring we actually have that paper BALLOT.

OTOH, none of the other legs of the tripod can possibly be any less important. It takes ALL of these elements, simultaneously, to support this Cauldron of our Democracy.


Staking our Democracy on only one element, while hoping that we can somehow grab the other necessary components (transparency, and citizen oversight and control) from reluctant legislators, in time to slip them securely under the bubbling cauldron, before the whole kit and kaboodle goes arse over appetite, is simply irresponsible, IMHO.


So before anyone risks spilling everyone's Democracy Soup into the sand and soil, irretrievably,(as even now it teeters precariously), we should be responsible enough to know exactly how we will get from where we ARE to where we SHOULD be: I.E., safely in the bosom of Democracy.



And when anyone holds democracy in their hands, they hold it for ALL of us.

So, when the Coalition made its demand (appeal?) to the Powers that Be for "a paper ballot for every vote cast", but cannot state exactly HOW we will move from where we ARE to where we SHOULD be, it risks Democracy for all of us.

And, personally, I will not concede that power to anyone who cannot, or will not, state unequivocally how they will move this Democracy to where it SHOULD be. And further, to guarantee it!

At the minimum, at least from the dangers that lie within, as opposed to outside, our nation.




The coalition is broad in that some might be okay with optically-scanned paper ballots while others would prefer (or demand) hand-counted paper ballots.

And some, myself included, would demand the same thing that you (Brad) have, in fact, predicated as the supreme goal. To assure "the accuracy of our elections and the confidence among our electorate". However you do it . Not just propose to do it, but guarantee to accomplish it.


But I believe nobody in the coaltion is unaware of the dangers presented by the unchecked, secret software used in optical scanners to count those ballots.

I hope not. To believe otherwise would defy the definition of "coalition".

While nobody has yet seen the revised version of Holt's bill, to be presented in the new Congress, you'll note that even the previous version required publicly disclosed source code for such voting equipment,

Which, BTW, raises this question. What good is that?

As so many reports have shown (many in your own blog, I think), the source codes can be altered (undetected), the substituted code run, and then the original publicly disclosed source code replaced. With no one the wiser (unless someone bungles it, and is caught red-handed).

Properly executed exploits always go undetected. So why the mention of it?


and mandatory random audits to work go with any such optically-counted ballots (as inadequate as I personally found the protocols for that audit to be in the previous version. I have reason, however, to believe such protocols will be greatly improved in the upcoming version.)

You end your answer to Michael on this note. Consequently, I assume you find this significant?

If so, after all the very hard work you have put in, after all the attention you have brought to the movement, after all of the hard hours you have put in, after all of the tremendously fine snags of blazing and lying line drives from Congressmen, after all the bad-hop BS grounders you have grabbed and fired to first base for the "outs" (some of those outs made with assists by EI activists posting to DU), why would you leave us with, "I have reason, however, to believe such protocols will be greatly improved in the upcoming version."


If you know something, can you not share it? Is it a "smoked-filled room" secret? And, given our own hard efforts, do we not have a place at this table?

Unless you can satisfy my need for a guarantee that someone will not "inadvertently" spill the Democracy Soup Kettle, it sounds all too much like the "Trust Us!" that we have heard since HAVA.

Have we all not the right to fight this battle on our own? Do we not all share information? Do we all not think independently, yet work co-operatively?

If so, after all you have done in this effort, can you not share with us why we should accept this one-legged chair?

Or, if the chair is not one-legged, can you not give us those assurances? If you do, you would have our support, certainly.

Can you change, with full disclosure, "I have reason to believe" to a more comforting "We have reason to believe"?



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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. K&R Paper ballots and substantial audits mandatory.
I understand that paper ballots are a start, but it's not enough without audits. It does not guarantee the accuracy of the voters intent. It's an improvement, but why not go a step further? That's about as much of a compromise that anyone should be willing to make. And....we, the people, shouldn't even have to do that.

It's pretty disgusting that we should have to fight for the best, most reliable, and transparent voting policies in this country, where the people's voice is supposed to be whole point to begin with. We shouldn't have to fight for what is rightfully ours.

I have thought for a while that counties/states should return the damn machines and demand a refund. If you buy something, and it doesn't work, you take it back, and expect a refund.


American Blackout is excellent. I highly recommend it...and pass it around.

Here, you can have this one. I have two.

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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
21. Give US!!!
SECUREHand Counted Paper Ballots, under the control of the Citizenry, or give us a Goddamned good reason why not!!

Do the Machine-Heads claim Americans are toooooo stoopid to count high enough???

If so, then say it and be done with it!!

If not, get the hell out of the way of our democracy!!


Viva America!!!






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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. The whole debate is getting laughable
I would not want to be on the side of the machine heads , because there is a tidal wave of common sense coming their way, what the hell, don't hand count the paper ballots, all you have to do is audit the machines that counted the ballots????? I don't want to audit their machines in the middle of an election, I want to hand count the ballots, to find out who won the goddamn race, not to make sure that Corporate America and the Politicians vote counting machines counted it right. Screw that already. :)
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. thanks for sharing
I'm sure no one had guessed that you support 100% hand counts. It's great that you shared that on a news thread, complete with this spiffy new sobriquet for everyone who disagrees with you.
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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. There are ways hand counting could be done. I firmly believe that.
It would require changes to the way we hold elections, and the timing of when they are held, but it could, and should be done.
Random, hand-counted audits on a substantial scale are a band-aid, but it's better than nothing at all. It is a step in the right direction, a baby step maybe, but a step.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. A question, Livvy ??
Pardon me if I misinterpret, but you seem to be saying two rather contradictory things. Could you clarify please?

You state:

A) It would require changes to the way we hold elections, and the timing of when they are held, but it could, and should be done.

I agree.

We have changed election times and places, and circumstances, before to fit our needs. Why not now? Particularly as there is an overwhelming, if not mandatory, need to do so in order to preserve democracy.


B) Random, hand-counted audits on a substantial scale are a band-aid, but it's better than nothing at all. It is a step in the right direction, a baby step maybe, but a step.

This is what seems contradictory, awaiting your clarification.


"Random, hand-counted audits on a substantial scale are a band-aid, but it's better than nothing at all".

Yes, indeed. A band-aid. I agree.

OTOH, "better than nothing at all"?
I suppose a theoretical argument could be made for that. But if we consider a band-aid, in the case of a severed artery, is a band-aid "better than nothing at all"? Does the theoretical argument really matter?

If the patient is due to bleed out in 3 minutes, isn't the band-aid, which lengthens life to (oh, say) 3 minutes and two seconds, a "strawman". Because, after all, the only thing that counts is the life of the patient. In this case, Democracy.

And if Democracy dies in 3 minutes, or 3 minutes and two seconds, what difference does the Band-aid make? Is it worth mentioning?

(Please advise if I have missed something here but, I've thought again and again, and don't see the worth of the Band-aid).

C) It is a step in the right direction, a baby step maybe, but a step.

Again, the analogy seems inappropriate (but, please advise if I have it wrong).

As in the first example, it assumes that part of something that is needed is better than none, i.e., "half a loaf is better than none".

But the "half a loaf" assertion always assumes a belly which will be filled later on or, at the least, temporarily, staves off starvation.

But, not all life and death situations can be broken down into increments (whether "half loaves" or "baby steps"), don't you think?

Suppose one must cross a mountain crevasse (to avoid avalanche, a bear, or whatever imminent and deadly danger one wishes to imagine). Say the crevasse is five feet across.

Or, in a city, from one very high building to another (to avoid burning to death in fire raging in the building you are then on), also five feet across. In between, assume a drop of over 500 feet (and 500 feet is a certain deadly drop).

In such situations, there are two possibilities only; 1) complete the entire vault safely, in one committed, certain, all-out leap, or 2) fall to a certain death.

In such cases, your statement, "but it's better than nothing at all. It is a step in the right direction, a baby step maybe, but a step." does not hold, I think.

Indeed, the "baby step" may be in the correct direction but it will prove as fatal as standing frozen still, or not leaping far enough.

We are so used to the axiom that "each journey of a thousand miles begins with a first step", that we tend to forget that some journeys must start with a giant and irrevocable step, or end in complete catastrophe.

The US lunar landings come to mind. A perfect example of where, with even one ounce less than the necessary amount of force, catastrophe would prevail rather than triumph.

I see Democracy the exact same way. Either we have achieved it, and retain it, or we do not have it.

And, anything less than Democracy, is not Democracy. It is something less, something cheaper, something named but not, in fact, real.


So my question is this?

Would you risk a "baby step" into the crevasse? Will you settle for something that is "like democracy, but which is not?"



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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I see no contradiction.
I said the way we hold elections would need to be adjusted. If we are to hand-count paper ballots it needs to be a manageable task. It could be with fewer issues/candidates per election. There is no reason, local, state, and federal issues need to be decided on the same ballot at the same time. More elections with fewer issues would make the counting more simplistic. Time should not be an issue, because the accuracy of the vote is the point. So we don't get the results 4 minutes after the polls close. People need to get over that.

I did not say this shouldn't be done now. It should, and it could, but I don't believe it's going to happen in this conservative country right now, like the way we would like it to happen. How many people outside of this site and other election reform forums do you think are even more than remotely aware that there is even a problem with elections? There are certainly more now than there were in 2000, but it's not an issue like Iraq, or immigration. I'm not saying it will never be a bigger issue, but right now, no. About half the people in this country don't even vote.

We can want the gold standard, and we can know it is the right thing for the country, but you can't always get what you want, when you want it. Sometimes there may be incremental steps that need to be taken. I'm not an all or nothing person. It's just not how I see the realities of life.

You seem to be fond of analogies, so think of it this way. A person who is very overweight, knows they need to lose weight, and really wants to be thinner and healthier. But just wanting to be thinner and healthier is not going to make it so. They have to work at it. They are not going to lose the weight immediately, just because it's what they want and what is right. It takes time, but if they keep at it, they will achieve their goal.

Hand-counting a substantial portion of the ballots is a band-aid in the sense that it may staunch some of the irregularities. I'd rather have some verification of the machine counts, than the status quo. Is it my preference, absolutely not. Will I be satisfied, and say "all better now" if that's what we end up with? Of course not.

By the way, if you stuck me up on the edge of a building with a 500 foot drop below, I wouldn't have to worry about what to do. I hate heights.:crazy: I got dizzy just reading about it.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Fat Apples and Oranges Voting?
Livvy,

Thank you for your answer. It helps inform me. May I ask another (or two)?

Given your analogy of weight, I concede that weight cannot be taken off immediately. Perhaps, with weight, I would say the analogy is to choose to lose that weight and have NO backsliding, not one iota from regimen chosen. Thus, an irrevocable commitment.

But, with voting, it can be "all at once", as in HCPBs now. It only requires the commitment to do so. Arguments (not saying this one is yours) that it is not "politically feasible" or is "politically naive", seem disingenuous a best, seditious at the other end of the scale.


Regarding audits and HCPBs, I may have misread you. Please advise.

Are you saying that HCPBs would be a sine qua non of democracy, the method to vote for our representative government, that it should be the choice of the people as to whether we use HCPBs,... AND ....that we should audit the HCPBs until the cows come home (or until we tire of it?)


If so, that's fine by me. As long as the people have the right to chose their representatives as THEY please, and not as some legislators or Election Directors (already in power) say they should.

But, that would require (currently) a plebiscite. Which seems ultimately reasonable, since the HCPBs were taken away without a plebiscite.

For 535 members of Congress to say, "That's just not realistic! Here's what we will allow... maybe" is both corrupt and unconscionable.

That same sense of hubris, that same refusal to forgo "taxation without representation", was what led George III to draw his ill-thought line in the sand. All of that transpired from 1764/5 to 1776.

The "iron heel of oppression" does not take toooo long to become the most important issue in mind. I would suggest that a wide open debate, followed by a plebiscite, would prove that Paul Lehto's figures are right on the mark.

It simply is not obvious to the public because it is not being raised as a public issue. After all, the military draft was not much debated until someone asked "Do we want an all-volunteer military?"


What is the difference now?

The people have a right to choose their representatives, per the Constitution. And, if it is the people's choice, the people should also have the right to choose the method by which they choose their representatives. So, why not put it to a vote?


If, OTOH, you are saying HCPBs are not enough, that we need much more in the form of verification (via audits) then, fantastic. Just so long as the people are allowed to choose not only their representatives, but the manner by which they are chosen, and that the process is transparent to the least able (technologically) of the voting populace.

IMHO, any citizen who was able to vote for (say) Abraham Lincoln should not be presented with a method of voting that presents a "technological learning curve".

In 1860, reading, writing and arithmetic were no more complicated than today. And, IMHO, voting should not be any more complicated, either.

Consequently, if the audits are to ensure the veracity of the HCPBs, that's fine. Because, in my book, that would be taking the "baby steps" you spoke of only after we have jumped the crevasse.

If so, we are already on the same page.


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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Would you like to turn the page, or shall I? n/t
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dlaliberte Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Hand count 10% of 100% of precincts - a HUGE step forward
You said "Hand-counting a substantial portion of the ballots is a band-aid in the sense that it may staunch some of the irregularities."

I believe that statistically, hand-counting a sufficient number of randomly selected ballots is a huge step forward, not a baby step. A sufficient portion can be reasonably small (on the order of 10%), and still be enormously significant in detecting any deviance from the overall total (99%), and thus provide justification for doing a complete hand-count. Thus, it will be a huge disincentive to anyone thinking of manipulating the voting process.

But we should do the random hand-counting of 10% of the ballots at 100% of the precincts. This ensures that *all* precincts conform to this minimum standard. Read more about the statistics of this approach at: http://www.electiondefensealliance.org/upspr

Nevertheless, although hand-counting of all ballots would require 10 times as much work as the 10% random hand-count, we have the advantage of scaling with the number of voters. We should be able to find 1% of the voters to volunteer in doing the counting in very short order and with sufficient redundancy that everyone can have faith that the count is accurate.

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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. If you have a concerned group of citizens
that want to count 100% of the paper ballots by hand, why try and stop them at 10%. I

If they want to count 100% of the ballots by hand, Why do you feel a need , to stop them from counting at 10% ?
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Indeed!!
Why not 100%? Why stop at 10%?

It is, after all, a simple question.


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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. where are these citizens?
I've encountered about five of you on DU. Are you going to recount the whole country yourself?

If you folks would go out and generate grassroots support (assuming that is possible) instead of ragging on the rest of us, there would be no need to argue.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. You mean atleast 24
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x462849

and also the coalition of 30 organizations who are demanding paper ballots, I don't think they are demanding paper ballots for their health.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. actually, that poll doesn't tell me anything at all
But suppose there are actually 500, or 5000, DUers who support 100% HCPB. We're still nowhere near 1% of the American people. (I'm not saying that less than 1% of the American people support HCPB -- I have no idea. That's the problem: sweeping claims about what The People want, with no apparent effort actually to find out.)

A call for paper ballots is not the same as a call for 100% hand counts.
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dlaliberte Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Indeed, count them all if we have the counters
There is no reason I can think of not to do 100% hand counting if, in fact, there are enough people to do the hand counting quickly and accurately enough.

If we were to get 1% (1 out of 100) of the voters to volunteer with the hand count, with redundant counting of 10 times for each ballot, then each counter would have to count 10 x 100 = 1000 ballots. At 10 ballots per minute, 1000 ballots would take about 1.5 hours. I have no idea whether that would be enough, but it doesn't sound half bad (as our current system is).
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. 10 ballots per minute?
I'm not sure I understand your numbers, but you don't seem to be taking account of the several dozen races per typical ballot.

Some time estimates/guesstimates have been floated here -- I don't remember off-hand if any have found their way to the "wiki" thread that WillYourVoteBCounted began. It would be useful if HCPB advocates and skeptics could at least approximately agree on the logistics of the proposal. Weirdly, some of the skeptics seem to have worked harder at figuring out the logistics than most of the advocates.
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dlaliberte Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. OK multiply time by several dozen
You are correct that I was thinking of counting only a single race. So multiply my estimated time (1.5 hours) by several dozen to get a more accurate estimate of the total time for a 100% hand count.

The skeptics might be skeptical because they are thinking more rationally about the actual details of the process. We would all tend to agree that, if it were practical, a 100% hand count would be better because we avoid all manner of suspicious machines. But it does sound challenging to make 100% hand counting practical.

On the other hand, suspicious people might be worse than suspicious machines, and in fact, machines are suspicious mostly because some suspicious person made them so.

Can you tell that I am a hand-counting skeptic?
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I like omnidirectional skepticism, myself
Paperless DREs are a skeptic's nightmare because there is absolutely nothing useful to do with one's suspicions -- and because of the potential damage that just one person can do. But some of the hand count advocates really seem to romanticize that whole approach. There's something called the "democratic wish": the idea that We The People can just Make Things Work. In practice, some people always do more work than others, and there is no escape from the dialectic of trust and suspicion. (I just saw a proposal for 100% in-precinct hand counts -- with streaming video from every precinct. The mind reels.)
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
41. You do know, don't you
that "auditing the machines" means that you "hand-count the paper ballots"?

Not that you "don't hand-count the paper ballots"?

That's why it's called a manual audit.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
22. Kick.
Please don't forget to sign the petition for paper ballots as presented in Sir Auto's OP!
http://www.velvetrevolution.us/Campaigns/PaperBallots/PaperBallots.php
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