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godblessthebeastinme Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:34 PM
Original message
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence
First the bad news:

There isn't any solid evidence of fraud. Don't kid yourselves, nothing in the exit polls proves our case. The bastards covered their tracks.

The only thing that will overturn this election is a picture of Karl Rove personally soldering a transmitter to an AccuVote machine. We don't have that.


The Good news:

If we're smart, it doesn't matter whether there's evidence or not. As long as the mainstream media talks about it, it undermines the Republican's credibility.

The problem is that the media is bored with us and our exit polls. They need fresh meat to fight over. They need a story.

I suggest we make something up. The story is dying while people do careful studies. I say, the hell with careful studies.

We have been hamstrung by the truth for too long. The Republicans have been planning a revolution while we debate policy and ethics.

The Republicans are approaching a super-majority. The ONLY way to check them is to aggressively undermine their credibility at every opportunity, using whatever means necessary.

The stakes could not be higher. The Republicans are not just people we disagree with. They are evil.

My question is, what can we say that will keep this story in the news?
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sacrifice a freeper to the volcano gods?
You lie. We'll watch.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. NO, WE WILL MAKE NOTHING UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 08:38 PM by jsamuel
We are not like them, we are looking for the truth!!!

If they didn't commit fraud, then great! If they did, then we are going to get the bastards!!!
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mak3cats Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. God, I love this group!!!
Intelligence, reason, common sense and integrity all in one. How did I survive before I found you guys???
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mbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well the notsoswift guys are unemployed now so maybe you could
hire them to work for the opposition!
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godblessthebeastinme Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. an anecdote from hunter thompson
Back in 1948, during his first race for the U.S. Senate, Lyndon Johnson was running about ten points behind, with only nine days to go. He was sunk in despair. He was desperate. And it was just before noon on a Monday, they say, when he called his equally depressed campaign manager and instructed him to call a press conference for just before lunch on a slow news day and accuse his high-riding opponent, a pig farmer, of having routine carnal knowledge of his barnyard sows, despite the pleas of his wife and children.

His campaign manager was shocked. "We can't say that, Lyndon," he supposedly said. "You know it's not true."

"Of course it's not true!" Johnson barked at him. "But let's make the bastard deny it!"

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mak3cats Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Lyndon Johnson was also suspected in the Kennedy assassination...
Yeah, let's use him as a role model. Good thinking.
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lenidog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. Don't forget the election that got him to the senate
That one stank of voter fraud almost as bad as the 2000 and 2004 Presidential Elections.
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ahyums Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. suspected? by whom?
Everything I know about LBJ is that he was a well meaning if somewhat self aggrandizing man. He was also the last truly liberal president
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Tammy Phillips
The *cough* liberal media ignored this.
http://www.nationalenquirer.com/stories/news.cfm?instanceid=5978

The media is in bed with the republican party. They dismissed Bush being AWOL, they ignore his DUIs, his cocain use, his girlfriend having a abortion when it was illegal. There is so much more but ofcourse this is before he met Jesus so all is forgotten and forgiven. Of course a democrat in the *cough* liberal media will never be forgiven.
Here is some info about republican morals
http://www.geocities.com/arthursank/sexualmorality.html
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. I strongly suspect you are a troll.
First, for suggesting that.
Second, for suggesting that on a public message forum.

(Hi, Agent Mike! :hi: )

Get a grip.
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. GO AWAY TROLL
:mad:
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. Fifty one percent is super...
The Republicans are approaching a super-majority.


That kind of gave it away.
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kvining Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. Ding!
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 08:46 PM by kvining
I got an idea! Let's start a thread on the Internet that millions of people can see and read, where we talk about all the dishonest things we can think up to do to Republicans! That would be a brillant plan! Your a genius!
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. That wouldn't be practical
Fun as all heck, as a parody site though.
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. We don't play ROVERS game
Here demmie, here boy fetch the red herring, make unkie KKKarl happy.
We are in the right and we WILL prove them wrong. Watergate took 2 years, remember that.
You really think the "cough" liberal media wouldn't skin us alive for a stunt like that.
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godblessthebeastinme Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm not a troll
I'm just saying we need to take the bull by the horns in the media.

The republicans are more than happy to lie and distort. Being moral is great, but the stakes are too high and there is no check on their power.





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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Giving you the benefit of doubt,
Ok, you're not a troll. You're -- um, there's no way to say this nicely -- stupid. mmmK? This is the public town square. Everyone reads this. So you wanna sit here and plan underhanded games IN PUBLIC? Hahahahahahaha!

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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. crispini, that was funny as hell!
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. thank yew, thank yew.
I'm here all week. :D
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Well then
we will give them enough rope and let them hang themselves. When people tell a lie they need to keep on telling more and more of them to hide the origional. Sooner or later they will screw up, and when they do we will be there laughing our backsides off.
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. We're better than them
We don't have to resort to lies. We need to continue to bring the truth into the light.
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. we don't lie and distort
...we find the lies and distortions and expose the liars and distorters of the truth. We get zero credit for it, get mocked, taunted, demeaned, and ridiculed... but goddamit, we're RIGHT.

LOL.
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secretpoet Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. "The stakes are too high"?
"Being moral is great, but the stakes are too high".

I don't know about what anyone else thinks, but when the stakes are high, it's necessary to be moral. How will it look upon us? Oh, what prize is worth sacrificing integrity and honor for? Unlike my Republican counterparts, I would rather have my opposition win honestly than for my own desires to be met through deceit and subterfuge.

If we lie to win, what makes us better than those whom we fight? We'll be the exact same demon in a different colored cloak.

But that's just me.
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lenidog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. So we become the thing we hate?
Might as well join the Republican Party then if we start acting like them. What you are advocating is the easy way out if it works at all. If its to be worth anything then we have to do it the right way. Of course it going to make it harder but then again so what.
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. why don't you get a life??? Go back to your repugs
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 08:49 PM by ailsagirl
What are you afraid of-- that we'll find some evidence of... TAMPERING??????
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. And we're also aware
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 08:57 PM by ailsagirl
that the media are not losing interest in this story... are you kidding??? This would be the biggest scandal in the history of the country!!!!!

The media have been muzzled. We know that.

But we're keeping it going, whether the media are involved or not.
So tell **that** to your right wing friends.

Another tip-off: "I suggest we make something up"

Hate to disappoint you, but we don't operate that way-- that's the repugs' strategy. We tell the truth in this party.

You say you're not a troll??

Well, if it looks like a troll...
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. "The republicans are approaching a super-majority?" Not even close.
Unless you count their phantom votes. And they're about to be 'uncounted' and the state totals overturned. Watch closely. The truth of an election can not die. News of the investigations may be buried, but the results will spread throughout the world.

We don't lie. We don't have to.

Here's your hat. What's your hurry? :hi:
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WinterStorm Donating Member (790 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. Did anyone ever read "Billy's goats gruff"?
It was a fairy tale about a troll living under the bridge. I believe it was one of the Grimm's fairy tales.
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. hehehe..
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Well, that makes sense
We're always building bridges around here, so... :+
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. LOL!
Always love that fable! I remember fables were written to teach a lesson and trolls are always fascinating.
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Critical Thinker Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
26. Congrats GodBlessTheBeast, you're the stupidest freeper ever!
I've never seen a more transparent freeper - what a dolt!
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
28. A victory without honor is not a victory
"The Good news: If we're smart, it doesn't matter whether there's evidence or not. As long as the mainstream media talks about it, it undermines the Republican's credibility.

The problem is that the media is bored with us and our exit polls. They need fresh meat to fight over. They need a story.

I suggest we make something up. The story is dying while people do careful studies. I say, the hell with careful studies."
***************************************

1. We do not accept the current state of the MSM. They're bored? Tough shit!! Rather that regurgitating what's told them, maybe they should get out and actually DO some investigating and reporting!

2. The republicans have undermined their own credibility. That's what we are trying to expose. Count the votes, then we'll talk.

3. The MSM has also underminded their credibility. "reporting" on the Swift-boat liars is but one example. So was the continual replay of the "Dean-scream," effectively undermining his campaign.

4. To suggest we make something up is beneath contempt. That same kind of mentality is one which approves of Abu Ghraib, because "they were just as bad, if not worse than us." Those are Rovian tactics, and are foul to the core.

5. The REAL MORAL VALUES of TRUTH, HONESTY, and INTEGRITY are central to our identity as Democrats. We would like to believe that was true of all Americans, but now we're not so sure.

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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. they didn't need direct evidence to convict Scott Peterson
I wonder if the gathering of enough circumstantial evidence such as this email might help???

http://www.gazette.net/200350/montgomerycty/state/191617-1.html



E-mail stolen from Diebold is a call to gouge Maryland


by Steven T. Dennis
Staff Writer
Dec. 15, 2003

ANNAPOLIS -- An e-mail found in a collection of files stolen from
Diebold Elections Systems' internal database recommends charging
Maryland "out the yin-yang" if the state requires Diebold to add paper
printouts to the $73 million voting system it purchased.

The e-mail from "Ken," dated Jan. 3, 2003, discusses a (Baltimore) Sun
article about a University of Maryland study of the Diebold system:

"There is an important point that seems to be missed by all these
articles: they already bought the system. At this point they are just
closing the barn door. Let's just hope that as a company we are smart
enough to charge out the yin if they try to change the rules now and
legislate voter receipts."

"Ken" later clarifies that he meant "out the yin-yang," adding, "any
after-sale changes should be prohibitively expensive."

The e-mail has been cited by advocates of voter-verified receipts, who
say estimates of the cost of adding printers -- as much as $20 million
statewide -- have been bloated.

"I find it appalling," said Del. Karen S. Montgomery (D-Dist. 14) of
Brookeville, who plans to file a bill mandating a voter-verified paper
trail.

"I'd really like to have explained to me anatomically, with
the assumption that almost any place it would be would be painful," she
said.

Montgomery said that the price to add printers should be much lower and
that she thinks it is being high-balled in part to keep people from
talking about the printing system.

Diebold spokesman David Bear would neither dispute nor confirm the
accuracy of the "yin-yang" e-mail on Monday, saying it is "at best the
internal discussion of one individual and does not reflect the
sentiments or the position of the company."

Last week, Diebold dropped threats to sue voting rights advocates who
published the e-mail and other reportedly stolen documents or linked to
an online archive of Diebold files from their Web sites.

According to news reports, a hacker broke into the Ohio company's
servers using an employee's ID number and copied a 1.8-gigabyte file of
company announcements, software bulletins and internal e-mails dating
back to January 1999.

The purloined files include discussions of the security of Diebold's
voting machines, which has been a contentious issue in Maryland and
other states.

State Board of Elections Administrator Linda H. Lamone told The Gazette
last month that Diebold had given a preliminary estimate of $1,000 to
$1,200 per machine to add printouts, or up to $20 million for the
state's more than 16,000 machines. She said last week that she could
not recall whether she got the figure from Diebold or media reports.

Lamone, who said she had not seen the e-mail and did not know if it was
accurate, also said she believes that a clause in the contract
requiring that Diebold give Maryland the lowest hardware price of any
state should guard against price-gouging if the General Assembly
mandates voter receipts. But some portions of the contract still would
have to be renegotiated, she said.

Bear said he did not know the particulars of the contract.

The issue of voter-verified paper receipts continues to gain momentum
nationally, with California's secretary of state announcing that all
electronic voting machines there must include paper printouts by 2006.
The cost cited by one of Diebold's competitors, according to news
reports, was about $500 a machine.

Aviel D. Rubin, a Johns Hopkins University computer scientist who wrote
a report earlier this year that found the Diebold machines to be
riddled with potential security holes, has advocated for voter-verified
receipts. Without such a check on the machines, he said, errors or
fraud could go undetected. Rubin's report prompted Gov. Robert L.
Ehrlich Jr. (R) to ask for an independent investigation by SAIC Corp.,
which affirmed that the system was "at high risk of compromise."

Bob Urosevich, president of Diebold Elections Systems, declined to
estimate a price in an interview last month, saying the cost would
depend on a number of factors.

Lamone also said that adding paper printouts to the machines before the
November presidential election would be difficult, though not
impossible, if the General Assembly should mandate it. All of the
equipment would need to be retrofitted, retested and recertified; new
procedures put in place; and judges retrained, she said.

Montgomery's bill would allow voters to correct errors they find on a
paper printout. It also would require random checks of paper records in
2 percent of election districts against the computer records to ensure
that there has been no tampering with the computers. The paper records
would be used as the final arbiter in the event of a recount.

Lamone said she retains confidence in the system: "I think they've
undergone so much study now that everyone in the world understands what
their weaknesses are and what processes need to be put into place to
make sure they are not compromised. We here in Maryland have taken
giant steps to ensure the security of the voting system."

Lamone said local jurisdictions are excited about the technology and
conducting successful mock elections, with a voter education effort
planned for late January.

Urosevich told The Gazette last month that the Diebold system is
secure. He also noted that the system passed extensive independent
testing at both the state and federal levels, and said his company had
already fixed the security issues found by SAIC.

Another e-mail from the archive, sent Dec. 18, 2002, and purported to
be from Sue Page, one of Diebold's Maryland project managers,
criticizes Lamone by name:

"Linda Lamone ... makes public statements airing dirty laundry and
casting doubt. She's about power and control. She feels powerful when
she makes negative comments. What she misses is that her negative
comments reflect negatively on her. She should be proud of and support
her initiative of a state wide voting change, rather than casting doubt
on her own decision."

The writer said the State Board of Elections has a negative approach,
mandating to county election directors instead of working with them,
and threatening University of Maryland researchers rather than building
a positive relationship.

Advice on how to deal with the media fell on deaf ears, she writes.
"There's not much that we can do, other than hope that a new Republican
Governor will effect change."

Asked about the e-mail on Thursday, Page said, "I'm not allowed to
comment."

Lamone, a Democrat, has been battling to keep her job amidst efforts
from Ehrlich to install a Republican elections chief. Four of the five
board members would have to vote to remove Lamone; three are
Republicans and two are Democrats.

Lamone said last week she had not seen the e-mail. "I don't know
whether they are really hers or not," she said, but she defended the
agency's actions. Lamone said that the agency has a very positive
relationship with the University of Maryland and a collaborative effort
with the counties.

"I don't know what she's talking about," Lamone said. "We try to be as
collaborative as possible."

These Web sites are where The Gazette found the e-mails reported to
have been stolen from Diebold Election Systems' internal database.

*The "yin-yang" comment by "Ken":
chroot.net/s/lists/support.w3archive/
200301/msg00015.html

*The Linda Lamone e-mail by Sue Page:
diebold.datengrab.biz/lists/support.
w3archive/200212.dir/msg00047.html

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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
32. kick
kick
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Hi momzno1!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
35. Stop! This is not staying on message....
We need to keep driving the point home about how this effects all Americans and not any party. Yes I know this is anti-sensational but the last thing we need is the 24 hour news cycle hovering on this like fly's over a pile of steaming shit. We need a clearly defined points anything else will be extremely counter productive.


Think simple...

If you really want to make a difference relate the complex into something people can grasp. We need to frame these deeds so people can't question them. If they accept that they happened on face value, they are less likely to question it. What you want them to do is question the actors not the plot... This is essential to the story, the case, and the truth; in the end "they stacked the election" should be where the truth starts not found lost in the middle.

The first hurdle we face is getting the rest of us to understand what happened. Who did what... And why...

You know what would be nice is a tree of who's involved at what level and maybe a picture of them... Show who they are connected to and why they are connected.

This might help put the spotlight on who's doing the fixing.
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