ooooo, sneaky senario.... No one gets Ohio....

[jsamuel]

There is a law that the Secretary of State cannot certify an election that he knows was fraudulent or tampered with.

What if the recount proves Kerry won and that fraud must have taken place. Can Blackwell say he will not certify the state and no one gets the votes?

In that case, neither will get a plurality (no one wins outright) becuase no one will have more than 269. In that case, it goes to the senate, where Bush would win.

Scary, better check this out...

Edit: It may go to the house, but Bush still wins that way.

[unblock]

1. it goes to the house for prez, senate for veep.

either way, the reich prevails.

BUT this is still worth doing because it undermines their ability to do further damage, undermines their "mandate" rhetoric, and sets the stage for a democratic sweep in '06 and '08.

[theorist]

2. Doesn't it go to the House if there is no electoral majority?

Not that it would change anything.

[momzno1]

4. we will just have to get the electoral votes in NM

other states are problematic, New Mexico in particular can probably be turned by a recount. I think Bev Harris has evidence there that she is keeping to herself for now...

[jsamuel]

6. That still doesn't work, one candidate needs over 269 to win without a TIE

[theorist]

7. There needs to be a majority in the electoral college.

That means over 269 votes. If there's something the pundits got right on 11/2, it was that.

Otherwise, the House chooses the president. Go back and read about the circumstances surrounding John Q. Adams becoming president. It makes me wonder if we should have had Gore run again, just as Andrew Jackson ran and won.

[Hobbes199]

16. Wouldn't the majority dip to 260?

It should me majority of votes cast.

[jsamuel]

17. From what I understand, no, but if someone can prove me wrong, be my guest

[Gore1FL]

18. When the spoke of this happening to FL in 2000

They stated the electoral votes would not be added to the denomintor or numerator -- So if OH has elector issues, the 20 electors would be droipped from the race as if they did not exist. 260 = majority.

[Ediacara]

3. no, not exactly

It's just the majority of votes cast, if Ohio doesn't cast its votes, Bush still gets a mojority of votes cast 266/252. If this can be done in Florida too though, Bush gets only 239.

[jsamuel]

5. That isn't how it works, one candidate must get over 269, period

For example, if Kerry got 264 and Bush got 254, that would still be a technical "TIE" which would go to the House and Bush would win.

[life_long_dem]

10. You are assuming all the repukes will give their vote to bush.

Maybe they don't like bush and would vote for Kerry. I can dream, can't I?
(Too bad we don't live in a perfect world)

[Silverhair]

12. But the house will only have ONE vote per state.

The House representatives from each state caucus and decide who they, as a delegation will vote. Oh Yes, it will be the NEW house that votes. Bush wins easily.

Besides, no evidence of significant fraud will be found.

[Gore1FL]

19. the need an electoral majority per the Constitution

if there are only 518 electors (with OH dropped) then a majority = 260.


Article II
The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed

If OH sends no electors, the majority of electors drops by that total.

on edit: (well actually that total/2 ) 538 - 20 = 518 518/2 = 259. 260 = majority.

[Ediacara]

20. No, it's not a majority of votes that exist, just a majority of votes cast

This was actually discussed on blogs in 2000. There was an attempt to force Florida to appoint no electors, thus ensuring a Gore win, even though he had less than 270 votes. Without Florida, only 513 votes would have been cast, and 268 (or 267 as it turns out) would have been a majority.

ON EDIT: the only time the House has ever appointed a president was in 1800 when there was a tie between Jefferson and Burr (House chose Jefferson), and 1824 when Adams, Jackson, Crawford, and Clay each recieved electoral votes with Jackson getting a plurality, but no candidate receiving a majority. The House chose John Quincy Adams overturning the plurality of electoral votes and the plurality of popular votes. Jackson was not very happy, and came back in 1828 and kicked Adams' ass.

[jsamuel]

8. No one thinks this is a possibility?

[For PaisAn]

9. Is that all the law says?

Does it then direct a new vote. Or is there a related law on what to do if fraud occurs. It would seem that the laws would need to do more than just say they can't vertify an election if fraud is proven. But then why would we expect rational, logical, fair laws after what we've seen already.

Could you post a link to the law you mention.

[liam97]

11. If fraud can be proved in one state

Then there will be grounds to investigate/audit if fraud hasn't occurred elsewhere. Unless that is done, nothing should be certifiable...

[Carolab]

13. Read this

Ohio does not have a specific requirement of speed for recounts or election contests, possibly causing an Ohio recount to run past the federal constitution’s “safe harbor” provision.

Federal law provides that when a state has a method in place for resolving a conflict about the selection of the state’s presidential electors, that method shall be conclusive in determining that state’s electors. However, federal law goes on to state that the determination must come within thirty-five days of the date of the presidential election. If the state fails to resolve any controversy within the thirty-five day “safe harbor” time period, then in counting the electoral votes, Congress is not bound to recognize the state’s designated electors.

Ohio law does not specifically address the issue of presidential election controversies. Ohio law does provide a process for determining the outcome of election controversies generally; however, Ohio’s time frames for filing petitions and setting hearings makes it unlikely that a contest could be resolved within the thirty-five days mandated by the federal law.

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/st-ohio.html

[For PaisAn]

14. Thanks

that's exactly what I was trying to find out.

[Carolab]

15. Welcome but now the question is

what are Ohio's laws for determining the outcome of election controversies?

[bearfan454]

21. They will try it if they can.

They will.