Every vote counting system is hackable. True or False?

[2rth2pwr]

To make the question more easily understood- If you don't like the term "hackable" use- "compromisable" sp?

[papau]

1. only audits protect the vote count from deliberate "error".

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I was told the first year I lived in Arkansas

to bring a pen to mark my ballot, because TPTB tended to change the paper/pencil ballots to what they wanted.

[Fresh_Start]

4. if you are really paranoid.....write your own name in for some office

so you can prove your ballot was processed.

[Xipe Totec]

3. a manual system is still a system

so no, not all systems are hackable.

[maddiejoan]

10. even pencils have erasers

all counting systems are able to be compromised.

Some more than others perhaps --but still -- all systems can be gamed.

The danger isn't just the system being used --the danger is in WHO is doing the counting.

[Xipe Totec]

12. My town uses paper ballots

But I always worry that somebody will stuff the ballot boxes after the polls close.

[maddiejoan]

13. people have been gaming votes

as long as there have been votes.

The ONLY thing we can do to protect ourselves is have a methodology for a recount of votes by a trusted source.

and how do we even determine who is to be trusted?

[Xipe Totec]

15. Bingo!

[2rth2pwr]

11. Whole boxes of ballots have been thrown in the bay.

"Beachcombers find them on sand dunes west of Point Reyes. Rowers come upon them bobbing in the bay.


The bright red box tops that keep washing up around the Bay Area are floating reminders of a problem in San Francisco, the remnants of ballot boxes that somehow got beyond the control of the city's embattled Department of Elections.

The corrugated plastic ballot box lids, each marked with the city seal and the words "Provisional and Absentee Ballots," first raised the concerns of election watchdogs shortly after the city's November election, when eight of them were found near the Golden Gate Bridge by the crew of a U.S. Coast Guard vessel.

Since then, despite assurances from city elections Director Tammy Haygood that the box lids merely blew into the bay while election workers cleaned them on a city pier, the issue has resurfaced time and again. "...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/07/MN185094.DTL

[Xipe Totec]

14. I also remember Ballot Box 13

But hacking is a computer term.

[sinkingfeeling]

5. Those who are answering 'true' didn't read your question. 'Hackable' means the

ability 'to access a computer illegally'. So an all paper ballot, hand counted system could not be hacked. I would agree if your question read, "Every vote counting system can be compromised."

[2rth2pwr]

8. There's one in every crowd.

I changed it per your suggestion.

edit for manners

[stillcool]

6. it depends..

are you talking about stealing some ballots...or disenfranchising voters through the purging of voter rolls? Are you talking about computers dropping thousands of votes..or someone who pays some people to vote? Are you talking about not being able to vote for your candidate of choice, because your vote is flipped..or are you talking about people being given the wrong polling address? Are you asking how many ways are there to steal an election, or what is the most efficient, bears the most fruit, and is the least able to detect?

[2rth2pwr]

7. all of the above

I guess.

But, specifically- Is there a counting system that we can use that is not hackable and can not be compromised.?

[stillcool]

17. Venezuela... as I understand...

uses computerized voting with open source code, or standardized code, with paper ballots. They hand count a certain percentage...like 50% of the vote for accuracy in "every" election. Our voting machines use proprietary code...so we rely on manufacturers to manage their system...so the only access to the software on the voting machine is through the manufacturer. We do not hand count any ballots, nor can we ask for the ballots to be hand-counted. Only a "sore-loser", "sour grapes", "Fraud-screaming-freak" candidate can ask for it. When that happens..I think Ohio hand-counted like 3% or something?..and it wasn't even random. And of course, the candidate is charged a huge chunk of change to conduct the pissant re-count. And then...if the candidate should cede the election because he has no further recourse...he is a "Quitter"..

[TreasonousBastard]

20. It's actually very easy-- just think...

cash register. Or bank teller. Ever since cash was invented, people have come up with schemes to prevent it being stolen, and are pretty good at it by now. Note that no one's complaining about Diebold's ATMs. Or billions of stock transfers around the world every day.

The same could be done for votes-- if the people who depend on votes for their living wanted to. Politicians, I mean. Turns out that over the years it's politicians and party bosses who keep on inventing new schemes to steal votes. And it's both parties doing it, so neither one wants to be the first to stop.

The magic word is "audit trail." Another magic word is "balanced." Yet another is "observed."

Diebold did NOT invent the box full of ballots being stuffed in the back room while the box of real ballots is dumped into the bay. Nor did they buy the the truck loaded with voting machines heading toward the river. Or the bus that drives drunks to the bar, the voting booth, and back to the bar. Or redistricting. Or...

So, maybe get those people running to add honest voting to the list of promises?

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. True with a "However...."

However, some voting systems are far easier to hack than others. Some voting systems have built-in checks that will make any hacking (sometimes even attempts at hacking) obvious on an audit. And some voting systems have a means count votes by other means if any hacking has occured.

[rateyes]

16. Every election is "hackable" because

only "hacks" run for office.

[Fovea]

18. No system is absolutely infallible.

But what we have right now is tantamount to treason, if not treason outright.

We can make a system that is so difficult to pervert that it would be counter productive, particularly if we made electoral malfeasance a capital crime.

[2rth2pwr]

22. Death penalty for wearing a political Tshirt to the polls!

I like it.

[Fovea]

23. Most of todays Puggie Power Brokers would have turned out fine

with only a few fatal beatings in their growing up years.

But rather I was speaking of malware, intrusion, fraud, caging, intimidation, and impersonating a law enforcement officer, officer of the court, or other election official. They should be deemed enemy combatants, agents provocateurs.

It should be old skool with their head in a bag and a rifle squad.

[davidwparker]

19. It wasn't the problem we thought it was. The Democratically-controlled

Congress has done nothing about it.

[riqster]

21. Can I get an A-MEN?!

Democrats are Election Reform's biggest obstacles.

[2rth2pwr]

24. kick for a valid sample size. nt

[tbyg52]

25. Of course any system can be compromised

The key is how many votes AT ONE TIME can be hacked/stolen and how close to UNDETECTABLY. I think electronic voting wins hands down on these counts.

[JMDEM]

26. And what is the motivation of this post?

Of course every voting system is "hackable" (if you call human errors and deception a form of hacking for paper ballot systems).

That's not the issue.

The issue is can the hacks be detected easily? Can they be detected at all? Is the vote verifiable if need be? That is the issue.

[Stevepol]

27. Why is this a poll? Maybe we should do a poll on other things too.

Like "Does the earth really revolve around the sun?"

(1) Yes it does and a good thing too
(2) It only seems to revolve around the sun because of an optical illusion.
(3) My eyes tell me it rises in the east and sets in the west
(4) A team of horses carries the sun across the sky.
(5) It's all a Hollywood illusion plastered on the sky.

etc.