Why I Distrust PA Election Results…

[Junkdrawer]

This is a long story, but I’ll try to keep it short.

After the 2002 midterms, I was one of the original DU Election Reform posters. I read everything I could get my hands on and soon realized that the key was that elections (and voting machines) needed to be auditable and audited.

Now, it just so happens that my best friend (who now lives across the state from me) was an active advocate for the disabled. Because of this, he was asked to be a member of the Governor’s HAVA advisory committee. (I’m sure they thought he was a sure thing to support the new machines.) I emailed him a lot of what I was reading and soon he got the committee to agree that voter verified paper ballots were necessary. Once it was clear that the committee wouldn’t rubberstamp unauditable machines, the PA Secretary of State refused to meet with them in person and, instead, sent a secretary to one of their meetings to get their findings.

Forward to 2005. The Pittsburgh City Paper ran a long article about voting machines. I nearly choked when I read this:

…

"The voter gets to keep this?" one of the Beaver poll workers asks.

Nope. The paper stays at the poll. If there were ever need for a recount to verify whether the election, or even just one machine, were accurate, the VVPATs can be compared to the machine tallies.

That sounds great.

Except, as Schulte never explains to the ladies, Pennsylvania won't approve any electronic voting machine that also records the vote on paper. The Accupoll 1000 got certified on Aug. 4 with the proviso that their VVPAT will be disabled.
…

http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A29155

Yes, you read that right. In order to get approval in Pennsylvania, voting machines have to be unauditable. An effort by Democrat Dan Frankel was made to change this by legislation, but the Governor didn’t help and the Republican-controlled legislature bottled up the bill.

There was one remaining ray of hope. The PA constitution states that the electorate must approve by referendum any change of voting equipment. A judge in Westmorland County agreed and voting machine purchases were put on hold. That’s when Governor Rendell swung into action. An emergency appeal was made to the State Supreme court and the justices ruled that HAVA trumps the state constitution. Seems to me that a referendum could have been held, but “shut the public out of this decision” seems to be the motto in PA.

So, here we are. Here’s a map of the current situation:



http://www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=1019&year=2008&state=Pennsylvania

If you want to believe elections in PA will still be on the up-and-up, be my guest. I don’t.

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. This is classic! Roll out the vote conspiracy!

[MADem]

2. It happens when results do not meet expectations....

You'd think there would have been more pollwatchers if there were indications of trouble ahead...

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. Poll watching is tedious. Better to just make up a bunch of nonsense

after the election is over when your guy loses.

[MADem]

4. And better still, post it on rense dot com!!! And then, link it HERE!

That'll convince everyone!

:rofl:

[Junkdrawer]

6. WTF are you talking about?

:wtf:

[MADem]

9. Check that site.

Plainly, you didn't.

It isn't my job to "educate" you. Particularly when you are availed of both a keyboard AND an internet connection.

Do a little research before you come straight back with a :wtf:

Otherwise, you look, well..unserious.


(Psssst....what I'm saying, politely, is "Horseshit!")

Be a bit more curious. It actually IS a good quality.

[Junkdrawer]

11. MY POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RENSE....

Not a damn thing.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Junkdrawer]

13. Ahhh...so posters like YOU are why there are ignore lists....

I'm catching on...

[MADem]

15. DO put me on yours. I find that the "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU:" crowd favor that.

It's a rather DITTO-HEADish habit. The opposite side of the Rush Limbaugh coin, here on DU!


But hey, make yourself happy, and go on, do it!


DO put me on your IGNORE list. PLEASE. It will NOT hurt my feelings!

It only validates my thesis, while making you blithely "happy."

It's actually grand when the flies flyswat themselves! Certainly makes it easier to navigate this board when they do...

[livvy]

16. You have a good point.

Curiosity is an excellent quality, IMO. To say that our elections since 2000 have had some rather curious results would be an understatement. To question the validity of unverified, non-transparent, secret tabulating, unaudited, proven hackable machines is a good indicator to me that the poster possesses the quality of curiosity.

What I find curious is your lack of curiosity since you seem to admire the quality. I also find it curious that you feel the need to be so, well, for lack of a better word, nasty. Most of the posters in Election Reform try to keep things civilized, basing their discussions on facts, data, and opinions, but not of a personal nature.

And I'll second Junkdrawer's :wtf:

[truckin]

20. Please explain how poll-watchers would detect paperless,

electronic voting machines recording votes incorrectly.

[Junkdrawer]

5. Read the post. Rendell convenes a HAVA committee, then goes 180...

from their recommendations.

[livvy]

17. Can you prove there was none?

See, that's the problem.

[doc03]

7. Here we go again we didn't win so they

must have cheated.:eyes:

[DCKit]

10. Yes, but now we'll never know, either.

The majority here don't seem to have an issue with election transparency, but it's all we've got to fight them with.

It looks to me as if a good 90% of the state has no way to run a recount, we KNOW where the machines came from, but anyone who complains about federal and state laws not being followed is wearing a tin-foil hat?

[MADem]

21. It's getting to be "the paradigm" I think. NT

[chknltl]

8. Brad Blog documented issues with PA E-Vote machines earlier today

Go figure. Clinton needs XPlus and despite of polls showing that she would get XMinus she still gets X. The next unknown statistic is how many repukes voted for her who only did so to be disruptive. I suspect that America, to include Senator Clinton supporters, would be outraged if the real vote tally where to be compared to this corrupted one. How corrupted is it? Likely nobody will know until long after the knowledge becomes historical trivia.

This is NOT sour grapes, I want to see a fair and honest election, it would be nice if all in DU wanted this as well but I suspect that will not be the case with a few. To those 'few': Had the situation been reversed and Obama somehow beat the odds I would have STILL wanted to see a fair and accurate accounting of this election. For what it is worth, I predicted earlier this week that Senator Clinton would get whatever was needed in order to stay in the race. She will continue to get 'whatever is needed' wherever there are voting machines without paper-trails AND where repukes who have NO intention of voting for her as President will eagerly vote for her in order to keep the fighting hot and heavy

[DemReadingDU]

18. I was thinking the same thing

The talking heads said Clinton needed a win by 10% to stay in the race. And she wins by 10%. How did that happen? Did that many more people actually vote for Hillary?

[chknltl]

19. No! She didn't win by 10% even!

http://www.electionreturns.state.pa.us/
If you look around you will find other threads regarding this statistic. I am not a math guy but I believe one fellow DUer had her win rounded UP to 8.5%!!! That means she did NOT reach her fading firewall of double digits! The MSM is spinning this up to 10% even hours after the fact...and yes, I am alarmed by that revelation. This shows me that someone(s) BESIDES Senator Clinton is trying to spin this race as being far far closer than it really is. Democracy huh?

[Junkdrawer]

14. As some...posters...are accusing me a making all this up, here's a post from 2006...

17. In 2004, a buddy of mine got on the HAVA advisory committee...

he's an advocate for the disabled, so they thought he was a sure thing to support the new machines. When he got the committee to agree that voter verified paper ballots were necessary, Cortez refused to meet with them (he sent a secretary to one of their meetings to get their findings). So, yeah, the fix has been in for a while.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x560951#561758

I have posted for years everything I stated in my OP. I just thought I'd bring it all together for today's primary.

[demodonkey]

22. THIS MAP IS INCORRECT. Four paper-based counties are missing.

There are 16 paper-based counties in Pennsylvania. It was thirteen counties in the beginning of 2008 and moved up three due in large part to PA citzen groups' hard work.

I wish someone would ask those of us who LIVE here (and are working our hearts out on this issue) what's what.

But I guess the muckety-mucks know everything.

[Junkdrawer]

23. What's the audit requirements for those "paper-based counties"...

And we are talking optical scanners, right?

[demodonkey]

28. 2% or 2000 votes, whichever is less. Not great but better than zero.

If and when we can get the other 51 PA counties producing something to meaningfully count, we'll go for a really good statistically significant audit law. But first there has to be something to count.

Yes, Optical or digital scanners in those 16 counties.

[Junkdrawer]

29. I was at every "Public Hearing" in Allegheny County....Mike Shamos....

had the County Commissioners wrapped around his little finger.

They wanted the Federal money...he convinced them that if they didn't follow his suggestions, they wouldn't get the money.

Thanks for the info... :hi:

[smith7745]

24. election machine menu

[Junkdrawer]

25. Touchscreen calibration settings?

:shrug:

[smith7745]

26. calibrate for what? brightness

[Junkdrawer]

27. Perhaps...or for left/right and up/down touch adjustment...n/t

[demodonkey]

30. That's an ES&S iVotronic, but NOT the screen calibration.

Screen calibration on an iVo is a series of Xs that the user has to follow around the screen and touch the correct spots in the correct order.

I've seen it done. Three or more times before it worked, lol.