A little report and gossip and such from the Columbus Ohio meeting...

[jhgatiss]

Hey everyone.... I dropped by the voter disenfranchisement/suppression meeting held at the Franklin county courthouse this evening. I arrived a bit late but stayed for an hour and a half or so to get a feel for some of the stories.

Many of the same things were heard multiple times. People who lived in rural or suburban areas reported negligible waiting times but when they went to help organizations like ACT or MoveOn with the GOTV effort on election day they found many fewer machines.

A few anecdotal examples from memory... One gentleman talked about his daughter and son-in-law having wait times of only about a half an hour in highly Republican southern Delaware county where they had something on the order of 17 machines for voters to use. (Compare that with the stories of three to four in many other areas of Columbus proper.) Similar stories were repeated for areas of Licking county and a gentleman from Dayton related a similar story where a handful of precincts shared the same voting site but one was clogged up with voters while others had short wait times. I would be interested to hear the demographic variability of that situation. I read a post on here earlier calling on people to petition the ACLU to sue Matt Damoschlader (sp?) of the Franklin county board of elections. Frankly, I don't think that will solve the problem. I agree it is an equal protection issue but it crosses county lines. I think that a lawsuit should be brought against the Secretary of State in the interest of creating a precedent for equal registered voter/equipment ratios.

Another common comment was heard about machine malfunctions here. We have an older model e-voting machine here in Franklin county. (Yes, the one that gave almost 4000 extra votes to Bush.) People talked about machines malfunctioning then being hit by election officials to prod them into working and then being continually used. (Did those machines really record the votes?) Another gentleman talked about voting for Kerry then voting for the other issues and candidates but upon doublechecking the machine before pressing the "Vote" button he found that his vote for Kerry had come "undone". He didn't note the glitch to anyone at the time but who knows if this snafu took anyone's vote away.

Finally, the most interesting tidbit.... I overheard someone who I safely assume was a Kerry lawyer giving an interview to someone outside the hearing. He mentioned that John Kerry is updated on the situation in Ohio every day and that they are well aware of the certification and elector meeting dates. He also underscored the fact that they don't expect anything to come of this in Ohio to turn the tide and that Senator Kerry didn't want a legal battle to tear the country apart.

Also, as a final note, someone from the Green Party/Cobb campaign was on the second hearing panel. She was greeted with a round of applause in acknowledgement of their recount efforts underway.

[ParanoidPat]

1. Thank you.

Excellent report. :) :toast:

:kick:

[Pirate Smile]

50. Here is another thread with a very detailed list of what people testified

to at the meeting. I responded to you because I wanted this to be near the top so people will see it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x54464

[bluetrain]

2. "Senator Kerry didn't want a legal battle to tear the country apart"

Kerry better wake up and realize the country is already torn apart.

[Joylaughter]

3. What about the "will of the people"

I don't believe this. What's going to happen if it turns out Kerry really did win Ohio? He's going to say, "Neve mind, let George be president so the country isn't torn apart?"

[radiofreesrini]

4. no, he may take office!

kerry's concession speech is not legally binding; the only thing that matters is the vote of the electoral college on december 13.

[BREMPRO]

19. it may not be legally binding, but...

even if Kerry by some stretch of luck wins ohio after a recount- if his position is that he "doesn't want to tear the country apart" (ie.. get the republicans so mad at him for taking their trifecta away from them that he can't effectively govern..) he can't be compelled be a part of the inevitable court battles the repukes will put up to block any change in the outcome. The recount won't start until december 3rd- that a long way off and into a bush term... Kerry seems to be signalling that he would not fight the outcome-or accept a change in electoral college vote- can we compell him to?

[jsamuel]

29. Why do you keep saying that?

Why do you say the recount will not start until Dec. 3rd?

Please provide a link proving what you are saying.

[jhgatiss]

34. Sadly enough...

I think he's right. I've read somewhere that Ken Blackwell (aka - Whitewell according to Rev Sharpton) said they are shooting for December 1st to certify the vote. I don't think any recount can start until after initial certification can it?

[BREMPRO]

36. umm... are you talking to me...

because this is the first time i've mentioned a recount date... My understanding is that the recount can not commence until the vote count is certified by the Ohio Sec. of State- this is scheduled to take place December 3rd. Do a google search and you'll find the details.

[jhgatiss]

8. Like I said in my response to the above...

I think its a political gambit. You can still actively pursue the Ohio issue by proxy but without the backlash from the Republicans that direct Kerry involvement would cause. I've wondered a bit whether there has been any Nader/Cobb/Badnarik coordination with Kerry because let's face it - none of these folks wants George Bush back in office.

[jhgatiss]

5. Sort of...

I agree the country is very divided but look what the Republicans did to Gore in 2000.... If Kerry would have contested this election, they would have sent tons of Republican staffers to Ohio to mock up protests for the cameras just like they did in 2000 for the Florida recounts. Kerry is in a much better position politically if the election lawyers quietly observe while the public and Bush are preoccupied with Iraq and cabinet changes. Then we can push the recount and fraud investigations forward without running into a wall of Republican lawyers and PR machine. The grassroots nature of the Ohio recount will make it much much harder for the Republicans to deny it when the time comes. If they try to do so, there will be a REAL recount protest this time. :)

[pacalo]

12. Never say "never"...

John Kerry has wanted to be president all his life. If the votes were turned around, I'm sure he would unseat the one who stole the election in a second. For one thing, it's the right thing to do. Secondly, the man who likely stole the election has dangerous ideas for this country & that's reason enough to turn the reins over to someone who evoked massive crowds of people HUNGRY FOR A CHANGE to attend his campaign rallies.

Until they prove otherwise, this election was STOLEN.

[bullimiami]

49. bluetrain. here here. it is torn to shit

if we are ever going to fix it we better start fighting like our lives depend on it.

im going to force myself to take any quotes from any kerry camp people with a grain of salt.
Ill wait and see what they have done in the end and then make my evaluation.

[Sade]

6. Thanks for the update

It seems that Mr. Kerry is going out of his way not to make any waves at this stage.

[berner59]

11. What I read from that comment...

about Kerry not wanting a legal battle is: this won't be a legal battle if the counts happen because the people want it...how can lawyers fight a recount ordered by the people???

The fact that he's being updated and once things get going - like the NH recount - once that shows the imbalance of the final exit vs actual vote...then the shit hits the fan...

Still can't believe the media isn't covering the FACTS that the recounts are going to happen...that's NEWS, yes???

Randi was right today when she said that people standing in line for 8-10 hrs IS A STORY!!! It's disgraceful what these poor people had to endure...if Kerry comes out fighting once the info is covered - he'll be a national hero...once again!!

[jhgatiss]

15. I agree...

There is news here beyond speculation. There are many stories of malfunctions across the country that deserve greater attention, not to mention the lines, the exit polls, the impending recounts, and sheer fact that 2000 undercut confidence in the system so much that many people believe this election was stolen. The "conspiracy theory" angle is just the easiest one to cover. The media has largely missed the boat. And as far as I'm concerned, they can keep on missing it until something turns up in NH or the Ohio recount gets underway.

[ParanoidPat]

22. It wasn't a "conspiracy" it was an "agenda".........

.......carried out by party faithful to win at any cost and prevent as many democratic votes from counting as possible by any means possible.

That combined with all the 'technical glitches' and 'typos' that accidentally contributed to the total of one candidate by improbable proportions at the expense of all others. :(

[jhgatiss]

41. *sigh*

You're just so paranoid! ;)

[ParanoidPat]

42. Perhaps because I can read and do math!

It's not whether you're paranoid or not, it's whether you're paranoid enough!:tinfoilhat:

Proud member of the 'reality based' society. :hi:

[jhgatiss]

46. Is that smiley...

wearing a Reynolds wrap hat? :)

[buff2]

7. My God........and to think I VOTED for this man.......

"He also underscored the fact that they don't expect anything to come of this in Ohio to turn the tide and that Senator Kerry didn't want a legal battle to tear the country apart".


Oh no, Kerry......don't do a damn thing about the repukes stealing another election and giving us another 4 years of pure hell. We wouldn't want to upset bu$h and his thugs by making sure the American people still had that little ole nuisance called a DEMOCRACY now would we? Krrrrrist......why can't we get a candidate with some BALLS??? :grr: :grr: :grr:

[jhgatiss]

9. You voted for an intelligent man of "nuance"...

Give him a little credit and remember how Gore got roasted by the Republicans when he challenged them head-on. Sometimes the best way to get what you want isn't the direct way.

[TexasBushwhacker]

20. I agree - Perhaps he has "stealth balls"

We know what didn't work - the approach that Al Gore took. The pressure needs to come from organizations representing THE VOTERS. Ultimately, they are the ones that were ripped off. There should be a daily status report on the number of provisional ballots counted, absentee ballots, military ballots, etc., and updated totals for each candidate. If there's a caveat in any voting laws that says that these ballots don't have to be counted if "there aren't enough to make a difference" please point it out to me.

[Joylaughter]

10. Un Be Liev Ab Le

Some people believe that he is fighting a stealth campaign. NO. THis man said in February, "We're coming he's going don't let the door hit you on the way out." Now he doen't want to tear the country apart. It breaks my heart. FLIP....PFLOPF. Fizzzzzzzzzz. FLUSH.

[jhgatiss]

13. I still think that...

we're much better off with no one paying any attention to much of this right now. No attention and no respect means no one is taking it seriously enough to counterattack (yet).... And that could be this effort's biggest strength.

[buff2]

14. I believed him and trusted him

When he told us that. I can understand it if he is working behind the scenes to right this wrong that has been done to us,but it sure doesn't sound like it from that article,does it? It's like he's saying whatever they find,we will leave it as is. :wtf:

[jhgatiss]

16. When I was at the hearing tonight...

that wasn't what I heard from the lawyer giving the interview. I heard a sort of, "Don't worry we're just here to ensure votes are counted," but with an opening that if something substantial comes up then things could change. I sense a lot of "keeping the options open" while investigating in the air.

[mary195149]

18. The Dems wouldn't be pushing to count all the votes,

if they were going to walk away if it swung in Kerry's favor. Kerry knows if he wins Ohio, and doesn't fight for the presidency, the people will lose all faith in our democracy. He isn't going to let that happen. But first, let them find something to fight about.

[Magic_Cookie]

17. From what I've read & have come to believe about him

Kerry tried it both ways in the past, and realized that sometimes you can achieve what you want, but you can't do it directly. I think that is what he has decided about this too.
Not sure what that boils down to at this point & perhaps neither does he (i.e. if something fool-proof about the elections crops up). But he hasn't given up - he knows the game much better than any of us & I will never believe he didn't do this without some other plans in the works.
Bottom line though is that HE knows what needs to be done better then we do. Let's do what we think is best while he does what he thinks is best. Sometimes things aren't always clear :)

[bluetrain]

21. but how could he have known

that we would all rally together and get these recounts together? etc.

[LisaL]

23. If Kerry has a couple of lawyers snooping around OH-

it doesn't mean that he is fighting. He just wants to keep his options open. In other words, if someone else uncovers something, maybe he will do something then.
I guess that's what he meant by promising they will count every vote.
:eyes:

[jhgatiss]

25. Didn't someone on here the other day...

say that they ran into a Kerry lawyer everywhere they go in Ohio? I kind of got the impression that Ohio was crawling with Kerry lawyers from that. Hell, even I bumped into one tonight! :)

[LisaL]

28. It was a hearing on voting irregularities.

I guess that would be the best place to bump into a lawyer, wouldn't it?

[jhgatiss]

30. I suppose so....

I could have spotted him from 20,000 feet though. East coast folks stick out like a sore thumb in the midwest ;)

[DancingBear]

47. We do???

Damn.

I thought I was so inconspiculous floating around Columbus during election week.

Are you sure I didn't "blend" - I mean, after all, I am an OSU grad so I still remember some things.

I bet it's when I asked for "soda" at Panera Bread - yep, I'll bet that was it. :)

[Magic_Cookie]

24. Your assuming

that he would be assuming that. Perhaps he wasn't. Perhaps he had his own plan laid out, we may be helping or perhaps not. BUT I don't believe that he was 'ignorant' to these issues & that he didn't account for them. It just doesn't fit. Hey, I may be wrong, just my opinion. But it just doesn't seem likely to me. I think he had a plan for if it went the Gore way & a plan for if it didn't & then another plan for if it went totally awry.

[politicasista]

26. He and Edwards need to come out...

too many peeps drinking haterade around here. It's a turnoff.

[jhgatiss]

27. Someone has went insofar as to say...

that Nader and Kerry met and planned this last summer. I'm not sure I'm quite ready to buy that but if Bev Harris and company are right.... The DNC may be aware of complex insidious voter fraud and we're just watching the chess game play out so they can attempt to catch them red-handed? (Ah speculation is wonderful!) If this isn't true, I should write a book where it is true :)

[Magic_Cookie]

31. Ah I love the speculation

and in reality, creeps aren't caught in an instant. It's hard to pin something on these people. Usually a trap needs to be set up. Perhaps some of those lost CIA people could help us out on this, hehe, but seriously, it wouldn't be something I discarded. Lots of other things I'd discard before this speculation. Do I really believe that... probably not, but one can hope!

[drm604]

35. Maybe he pushed us in that direction...

Maybe some of the members on this board who rallied us and pushed us in that direction are actually working with Kerry. It had to look spontaneous. It had to look like Nader was being difficult and almost obstructionist about the NH recount. It had to look like Cobb and Badnarik had to be asked and pleaded with. But maybe it was all pre-planned and scripted. Maybe they knew that, with a little pushing, we would rally behind them. And maybe they even had a plan B to proceed differently if we didn't come through. Heck, we might even be plan B, or plan C even!
Just a thought, probably a crazy thought, but who knows?

[jhgatiss]

38. Not all that crazy...

I was thinking the same thing tonight on my way home. We know how much Joe Trippi thinks the "blogosphere" is tomorrow's powerbase. He's gone so far as to say 2008 may show actual "blog" candidates.

[Iceburg]

51. If you did in fact vote for mhim...its about time you got some balls

trade your whiner marbles for some pearlies.

This election was stolen, just like the last and WHAT are YOU personally going to do about it.... nothing (just as I expected)

Will the real Americans please step forward...

[patomime]

32. As a note ...

Kerry doesn't want to show Rove and company his "cards." He's playing a game of chess, not checkers. I don't know if some of you caught the repugs saying this during the campaign, but several repug strategists actually said they were playing chess, not checkers (of course, implying that Dems are much less intelligent than they are). We all know according to plenty of studies, Dems are actually by and large more intelligent, because we are "thinkers". That's probably part of our problem, that we expect people to think, and be rationale therefore vote for us. (This also proves my theory that repugs are less intelligent beings).

It would be a roller-coaster ride if Kerry came out and played his hand - he's super intelligent and it's much easier to do it on the sidelines. At first, when Nader was coming out asking for the vote recount in New Hampshire, I wondered what was going on. However, because it is a small state, and he was asking for counties to be counted where Bush won on opti-scan machines by wide margins, I realized this was a way for us to prove several points. If opti-scan machines are recounted and the results show a much different count (by hand), it's easier to prove elections had problems, errors or the big card ----- fraud!!!! Then, we can move on to the bigger target of Ohio. Game, set, match!!!!!

No retreat, baby, no surrender - don't give up hope - working under the radar is the best way. I'm still prepared to accept if all the votes get counted appropriately and it doesn't change the outcome - but I wouldn't bet on it!:dem: :dem:

[jhgatiss]

33. I agree... (Mostly...)

I must note though that most of Ohio uses punchcards, so if optical scanning were to come into play it would most likely help more in Florida than Ohio.

[delphine]

37. I wonder why John Kerry thinks

it's better to allow the country to be torn apart for the next four years by an unraveling cabinet, a self-destructing CIA, an unwinnable escalating war, repression and secrecy, and an incompetent boob in the White House

than to have it torn apart by a short but sweet legal battle

followed by a new honorable cabinet, reforms in the intelligence community (and no purging), a reasoned policy on Iraq and a plan for peace, tolerance and transparency, and a seasoned, intelligent and capable leader in the White House.

It really pisses me off that he doesn't seem to understand the Democracy is sometimes messy. But counting votes, even if legal battles ensue, nonetheless IS Democracy.

What this horrific administration is up to is not Democracy. Not even close.

Tear us apart a little, John. It's what needs to happen right now.

[jhgatiss]

39. The problem is...

that if this goes to court. We can't win. The Supreme Court would duplicate 2000 and stop any recount in its tracks to reinstall Resident Bush in the White House. That would not obtain the end goal of John Kerry in the White House. It would only serve to undermine the second Bush term (a desirable goal but not as desirable as John Kerry as President).

[Sanity Claws]

48. Rehnquist not around, I think

Actually it may not be a repeat because Rehnquist may not be well enough to participate. If that is so, then the vote would be 4-4 and whatever the lower court did would stand.

[ZRB]

40. If John Kerry came out and said

that he thought things could turn around in Ohio, then the right wing would pounce on this and crush these efforts in the press.

I seriously don't think the lawyers would be there if Kerry didn't believe he could still win the state.

He has a plan. And the recount is on!

[delphine]

43. I have to say I agree with you

100% that if he yells "fire" right now he's likely to be overrun with rethuglicans and their attorneys and all vote counting ceases while they bash the crap out of him in the media.

And they are not unaware of exactly what's going on, but they can't make a stink right now if all he's doing is making sure all votes are counted properly (while reiterating he does not see the outcome changing).

But if things get dicey (i.e., the vote tightens enough that he needs to join the fight to recount undervotes or challenge the provisional ballot decisions) he may have to step in.

And at that point I believe the choice between the turmoil of vote counting lawsuits and the turmoil of the hell we are facing with shrub is an easy one.

It's funny how much I've been beaten up for simply noting the conundrum - if he claims there's problems or fraud or mentions the word "recount" he's screwed in the media, and the vote will never be properly counted. Or if it is, he will have no credibility because he's a "sore loser".

But if he says nothing but counts the votes(as he is), he gets lambasted by erstwhile supporters who are upset that he's "not fighting".

He has to walk a fine line. Can't jump the gun. Which is why Katherine Blackwell is under orders to delay certification as long as possible.

[Northwestmom4Kerry]

45. A short, but sweet legal battle?

And just what is he supposed to base this lawsuit on? Is he supposed to stand up and scream that he wants the votes to be counted? He would look like a lunatic, because that's exactly what IS happening. The votes are being counted. What happened in Florida is that Bush kept STOPPING the votes to be counted. By saying nothing, it allows the process to continue and they can't stop the votes from being counted. Isn't that the point? For all the votes to be counted, and then re-counted, if grounds show good reason. But, we haven't gotten that far yet. So, that brings me back to the first question. Why woujld you want him to enter into a legal battle at this time and on what grounds?

[jsamuel]

44. 10,000 lawyers DO NOT SPEAK FOR KERRY!

I am tired of everyone acting like everything a lawyer says is a direct quote from Kerry! The only statements Kerry himself has made is that they are still fighting to have every vote count.

I am suspicious of all these people telling us that we shouldn't support our future president because a lawyer in Ohio said something bad...

[jdog]

52. Another thread talks about this meetings

The thread named Look at the *#!@&& Pollbooks!!! Everywhere!! makes some really interesting points about testimony related to the poll books.

[Clark2008]

53. Were there any local reporters there

covering the meeting?

In other words, can we read about this in an Ohio paper tomorrow? I think the local papers are covering this issue, but it's getting virtually no national coverage.

I'd still like to find a link (I don't question your version, I just want something I can pass around).